From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Thu May 1 10:04:43 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0700B010FPSJ@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 01 May 2008 10:04:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0700B010FINQ@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Thu, 01 May 2008 10:04:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from thorn.listbox.com (thorn.listbox.com [208.210.124.75]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K0600J1GTQCL5@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 01 May 2008 07:39:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9B7EBCB6 for ; Thu, 01 May 2008 07:41:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by apex.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F7EC5E for ; Thu, 01 May 2008 06:59:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXHUB016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net (exhub016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net [207.5.72.226]) by apex.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD06831B8 for ; Thu, 01 May 2008 06:58:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.173]) by EXHUB016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.226]) with mapi; Thu, 01 May 2008 03:58:27 -0700 Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 03:58:13 -0700 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Instant Messaging for Introverts To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0E6E608443A703489B63435E45E642712C5E612C44@EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: Instant Messaging for Introverts Thread-Index: AQHIq3pHGatqK1e7jUS1piNvRTiIAA== Accept-Language: en-US acceptlanguage: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Listbox-UUID: 9C2B0552-176D-11DD-B49A-90D3189CFB26 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 ________________________________________ From: Richard Forno [rforno@infowarrior.org] Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 9:47 PM To: Infowarrior List Cc: David Farber Subject: Instant Messaging for Introverts Opinion | 04 Apr 2008 | Instant Messaging for Introverts by Joe Kissell http://db.tidbits.com/article/9544 This fellow nicely sums up nearly my exact sentiment on Instant Messaging. I thought I was the only one who felt this way!!! More specifically, while I'm not as 100% black-and-white as he writes (ie, I don't mind chatting around when working if I'm so inclined every now and then) this article extract pretty much is my take on the IM thing..... < - > > Unlike many people, when I'm in front of my computer, I'm working, which = means > I'm concentrating on something. I'm writing an article, or a book, or an = email > message, trying to come up with exactly the right way to phrase some sent= ence > or express a certain point. Or I'm programming, trying to solve some logic > problem. Or I'm reading an article. Whatever the activity, it's something= to > which I am predisposed to devote my entire attention. If the phone rings,= or > my wife asks me a question, or an iCal alarm goes off, it breaks my > concentration in a way that's frustrating to recover from. I lose my ment= al > place, and it takes me a long time to get back into that same train of th= ought > and finish whatever I was working on. I'm not saying I need to write an e= ntire > book without any interruptions, but when my mind is actively juggling > information, I need to complete that particular thought (or block of code= , or > paragraph) before moving on to something else. > > This is why I love email as a mode of communication. I get many dozens of > messages every day, but I can answer them whenever I want. I don't have to > look at them right in the middle of this paragraph; I can wait five or ten > minutes - it doesn't matter (though in practice, I usually answer email v= ery > quickly). Voicemail can make handling phone calls similarly convenient. B= ut > instant messaging isn't like that. If my status shows that I'm online, th= en > people expect an immediate response, and even though I could choose not to > respond, I'd still have the blinking, bouncing, or beeping notification > interrupting my train of thought - it isn't an improvement for me. > > So in terms of IM status, I never consider myself "available" in the sens= e of > "interruptible." Ever. There is no time of any day, under any circumstanc= es, > when I think to myself, "I really don't mind being interrupted now." If I= 'm > not at my computer, then most likely a phone call or a knock at the door = won't > seem like an interruption. But if I am at my computer, I'm concentrating, > which means I'm not "available" - I do mind being interrupted. And if my > status shows that I'm unavailable, as it invariably does when I'm logged = into > iChat, most people will refrain from trying to start a conversation - mea= ning > I might as well be entirely offline. < - > -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Thu May 1 10:04:44 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0700B010FPSJ@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 01 May 2008 10:04:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0700B010FINQ@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Thu, 01 May 2008 10:04:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from chiclet.listbox.com (chiclet.pobox.com [208.210.124.77]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K0600OAOYKQWE@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 01 May 2008 09:24:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chiclet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90F0B1C626F for ; Thu, 01 May 2008 09:25:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by apex.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 778CF69 for ; Thu, 01 May 2008 09:07:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXHUB016-1.exch016.msoutlookonline.net (exhub016-1.exch016.msoutlookonline.net [207.5.72.163]) by apex.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E520465 for ; Thu, 01 May 2008 09:06:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.173]) by EXHUB016-1.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.163]) with mapi; Thu, 01 May 2008 06:06:34 -0700 Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 06:06:22 -0700 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] This is good news, if it scales like they say it will. To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0E6E608443A703489B63435E45E642712C5E612C47@EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: approve:hamming This is good news, if it scales like they say it will. Thread-Index: AQHIq4wtbI51h8WgZUm1eyVV/8pRFA== Accept-Language: en-US acceptlanguage: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Listbox-UUID: 7C2E02EC-177F-11DD-AD4B-D2FB189CFB26 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 ________________________________________ From: Randall Webmail [rvh40@insightbb.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 10:30 PM To: dewayne@warpspeed.com; David Farber; johnmacsgroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: This is good news, if it scales like they say it will. GM Ethanol Partner Announces Pilot Plant April 25, 2008 By Bill VisnicCoskata PITTSBURGH =96 Coskata Inc., developer of a unique process that uses specia= lized bacteria to produce cellulosic ethanol =96 and with whom General Moto= rs Corp. formed a partnership last January =96 announced Friday it will beg= in construction near here for the first production facility to demonstrate = the process. The demonstration plant, Coskata says, will start early next year and run 2= 4 hours a day to produce about 40,000 gallons of cellulosic ethanol derived= from almost any organic waste material, including agricultural waste and m= unicipal garbage that might normally be placed in landfill. Coskata=92s facility will be located at the site of the Westinghouse Plasma= Center, a research facility focused on exploring new-energy uses for plasm= a beyond its current industrial applications. The high-energy plasma gasifi= es the organic material into synthetic gas =96 largely carbon dioxide and h= ydrogen =96 which Coskata=92s patented bioorganisms literally feed on, maki= ng ethanol as a byproduct. Coskata president and CEO William Roe told AutoObserver the ethanol produce= d in its process is vastly more positive in a net-energy equation than is e= thanol derived from corn, the source for practically all the transportation= -fuel ethanol currently produced in the U.S. Roe said Coskata=92s process can generate enough ethanol to be produce as m= uch as 7.7Coskata_process_384_2 times more energy than the process require= s. The company estimates ethanol produced from corn delivers a maximum of a= bout 1.3 times the energy required to produce it. Coskata says its unique p= rocess can generate about 100 gallons of ethanol from a single dry ton of w= aste material, compared with about 67 gallons of ethanol that can be squeez= ed from a ton of corn. Roe said the demonstration plant here will be used =93to demonstrate the fl= exibility to use a lot of different feedstock materials,=94 and to study th= e yield from those materials. He says the company will be =93somewhat strat= egic about what we=92re putting in.=94 He also said the plant will demonstrate scalability of the process and that= the microorganisms are =93manageable over long, long run times.=94 Roe cautions the plant=92s yield is deliberately small so that it can readi= ly test a variety of source material =96 everything from woody biomass to t= he garbage citizens normally tote out for curbside pickup and ends up in a = landfill. He does say, however, that if garbage is used, a future that sees= more selective separation of garbage would be ideal. Glass, tins cans and = other inorganic garbage would burn easily enough in the facility=92s plasma= =93torch,=94 but would yield nothing in the production of the syngas upon = which the bacteria feast. For Coskata=92s partner GM, the use of the Westinghouse Plasma Corp. techno= logy is well-known quantity: GM has for more than two decades used a Westin= ghouse-developed plasma torch furnace to produce molten iron for engine blo= cks and brake components. Roe said the company=92s timeline for two full-scale commercial facilities = to be running by 2011 remains intact. He says the ideal output for such fac= ilities would be in the range of 100 million gallons annually, but he can e= nvision profitable plants at the 50 million-gallon level because facilities= utilizing Coskata=92s process could be economically sited in close proximi= ty to any type of potential fuel stockpile. And what about the 40,000 gallons of ethanol produced at this first demonst= ration plant? Roe said, =93It=92s not enough to try to find a commercial ho= me for.=94 Instead, GM will use it to fuel test vehicles next year at its p= roving grounds in Milford, Mich. Photo by Jason Coehn for GM U.S. Congressman Tim Murphy (R-PA) looks on as Coskata CEO Bill Roe shows o= ff plans for Coskata's pilot cellulosic ethanol producing plant in Madison,= Pa., at the Westinghouse Plasma Center, during a press conference in Pitts= burgh Friday. The plasma center is home to a pilot-plant gasifier. Gasifica= tion is the first step in Coskata=92s process to make ethanol out of practi= cally any renewable source. -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Thu May 1 10:04:45 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0700B010FPSJ@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 01 May 2008 10:04:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0700B010FINQ@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Thu, 01 May 2008 10:04:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from thorn.listbox.com (thorn.listbox.com [208.210.124.75]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K06006BZZNI6C@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 01 May 2008 09:47:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5AC6BCDA for ; Thu, 01 May 2008 09:48:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cygnus.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BF8C9C for ; Thu, 01 May 2008 09:06:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXHUB016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net (exhub016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net [207.5.72.226]) by cygnus.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A259295 for ; Thu, 01 May 2008 09:05:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.173]) by EXHUB016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.226]) with mapi; Thu, 01 May 2008 06:05:16 -0700 Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 06:05:07 -0700 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Drawing The Line To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0E6E608443A703489B63435E45E642712C5E612C46@EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: Drawing The Line Thread-Index: AQHIq4v/tpmqYRUIIUO3FaVRJ2TLwg== Accept-Language: en-US acceptlanguage: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Listbox-UUID: 4C92E39A-177F-11DD-B2B8-342257A607E7 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 ________________________________________ From: Neil Schwartzman [neil.schwartzman@returnpath.net] Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 9:01 AM To: David Farber Subject: Drawing The Line Hi Dave, I was wondering if you would consider this for IP - those not subscribed to the Return Path RSS feed "The Email Marketing Water Cooler" may nevertheless find this post of interest; we are open to considered opinion from the public in this regard. "Drawing the Line" By Matt Blumberg CEO & Chairman http://www.returnpath.net/blog/2008/04/drawing-the-line.php We are having a bit of a debate at the moment internally around our Sender Score deliverability business about how to handle clients who are in businesses that are, shall we say, not exactly as pure as the driven snow. As a company that provides software and services to businesses without a vertical focus, we are often approached by all sorts of companies wanting our services where we don't love what they do. Examples include: * Gambling * Tobacco * Neutriceuticals * Guns * Adult content or products [continues on the site] Thanks! -- Neil Schwartzman Standards & Security Sender Score Certified Return Path Inc. 0142002038 -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Thu May 1 20:26:14 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0700201T7JYL@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 01 May 2008 20:26:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0700201T7BY8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Thu, 01 May 2008 20:25:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from chiclet.listbox.com (chiclet.pobox.com [208.210.124.77]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K0700L3S2S097@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 01 May 2008 10:55:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chiclet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22E931C62DA for ; Thu, 01 May 2008 10:56:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cygnus.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31FD0B2 for ; Thu, 01 May 2008 10:34:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXHUB016-4.exch016.msoutlookonline.net (exhub016-4.exch016.msoutlookonline.net [207.5.72.225]) by cygnus.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3FDC8C for ; Thu, 01 May 2008 10:34:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.173]) by EXHUB016-4.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.225]) with mapi; Thu, 01 May 2008 07:33:48 -0700 Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 07:33:31 -0700 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] This is good news, if it scales like they say it will. To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0E6E608443A703489B63435E45E642712C5E612C49@EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: approve:hamming This is good news, if it scales like they say it will. Thread-Index: AQHIq5hbmNll2m4OPUSmzQYepTjtJg== Accept-Language: en-US acceptlanguage: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Listbox-UUID: AA850D64-178B-11DD-B642-D21357A607E7 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 ________________________________________ From: =3DJock [jock.gill@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 10:28 AM To: David Farber Cc: Dewayne Hendricks; Grass Energy Subject: Re: [IP] This is good news, if it scales like they say it will. Dave, While I applaud this development, it is important to consider how the ethan= ol will be used -- if we want to understand the end-to-end efficiency of t= he total system. We must do this to fully understand the "energy economics= " of all of our systems as we go forward. So, in the case of ethanol, it is burned in an internal combustion engine w= ith only 30% efficiency. Thus the NET NET energy is more like 7.7 X .3 =3D= 2.3. We must insist at looking at the whole picture, not just a single st= ep in the process. By way of comparison, a properly farmed herbaceous energy crop will have a = net energy of 21:1 at the point of harvest, about 14:1 after it has been pr= ocessed into pellet fuel, will be burned in a unit with 80% efficiency [in = the USA], for an end-to-end net net on the order of 11:1. In Europe they a= re achieving better than 90% efficiency in wood pellet fired boilers -- see= products from KWB of Austria. I note that the US government refuses to fund research into the combustion = of solid fuels used for stationary energy generation. Today USG blindly li= mits its funding support to liquid fuels used for transportation. Grants = must use the words 'ethanol', 'liquid', and 'transportation' many times per= sentence to get approved. One mention of "combustion" and your grant will= be denied. Try it and your grant will go unfunded too. The really important change will come when we have widely distributed micr-= CHP, quite possibly pellet fueled. Again, see the work of KWB. http://www.kwb.at/en/index.php?option=3Dcom_content&task=3Dview&id=3D105&It= emid=3D133 Eliminating energy waste at large central generating plants as well as the = energy waste in the grid distribution system will be essential to our strat= egy for dealing with Global climate Disruption. We clearly need to rethink= our energy economics. The day will come when most American never use liquid fuels for the majorit= y of their personal transport. They will charge their electric cars with e= lectricity made by their personal micro-CHP system. We all need to reflect that since we act on what we see, and can only see w= hat we believe, that real change requires liberation, transformation and re= conciliation of our diverse beliefs. There can be no change without this. = I can tell you from direct personal experience in the biomass energy field,= that this applies just as surely to politics and the environment as it doe= s to alternative energy in general and solid biofuels in particular. Those who want to be change agents in ANY domain must have the strength to = address liberation, transformation and reconciliation. Not run from it and= refuse to talk about it, as most of the press and politicians are currentl= y doing. Change is hard and not for the faint of heart. Thanks for considering this for IP. Regards, Jock On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 9:06 AM, David Farber > wrote: ________________________________________ From: Randall Webmail [rvh40@insightbb.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 10:30 PM To: dewayne@warpspeed.com; David Farber; john= macsgroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: This is good news, if it scales like they say it will. GM Ethanol Partner Announces Pilot Plant April 25, 2008 By Bill VisnicCoskata PITTSBURGH =96 Coskata Inc., developer of a unique process that uses specia= lized bacteria to produce cellulosic ethanol =96 and with whom General Moto= rs Corp. formed a partnership last January =96 announced Friday it will beg= in construction near here for the first production facility to demonstrate = the process. The demonstration plant, Coskata says, will start early next year and run 2= 4 hours a day to produce about 40,000 gallons of cellulosic ethanol derived= from almost any organic waste material, including agricultural waste and m= unicipal garbage that might normally be placed in landfill. Coskata's facility will be located at the site of the Westinghouse Plasma C= enter, a research facility focused on exploring new-energy uses for plasma = beyond its current industrial applications. The high-energy plasma gasifies= the organic material into synthetic gas =96 largely carbon dioxide and hyd= rogen =96 which Coskata's patented bioorganisms literally feed on, making e= thanol as a byproduct. Coskata president and CEO William Roe told AutoObserver the ethanol produce= d in its process is vastly more positive in a net-energy equation than is e= thanol derived from corn, the source for practically all the transportation= -fuel ethanol currently produced in the U.S. Roe said Coskata's process can generate enough ethanol to be produce as muc= h as 7.7Coskata_process_384_2 times more energy than the process requires.= The company estimates ethanol produced from corn delivers a maximum of abo= ut 1.3 times the energy required to produce it. Coskata says its unique pro= cess can generate about 100 gallons of ethanol from a single dry ton of was= te material, compared with about 67 gallons of ethanol that can be squeezed= from a ton of corn. -- Pellet Futures Peacham, VT (802) 613-1444 ..Cooperative gain from collective behaviors at the edges.. -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Thu May 1 20:26:15 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0700201T7JYL@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 01 May 2008 20:26:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0700201T7BY8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Thu, 01 May 2008 20:25:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from thorn.listbox.com (thorn.listbox.com [208.210.124.75]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K0700L8E2WZ97@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 01 May 2008 10:58:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68CD0BCDA for ; Thu, 01 May 2008 10:59:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cygnus.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6583C8C for ; Thu, 01 May 2008 10:14:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXHUB016-2.exch016.msoutlookonline.net (exhub016-2.exch016.msoutlookonline.net [207.5.72.164]) by cygnus.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A79A39B for ; Thu, 01 May 2008 10:14:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.173]) by EXHUB016-2.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.164]) with mapi; Thu, 01 May 2008 07:14:02 -0700 Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 07:13:29 -0700 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Hardware Viruses? To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0E6E608443A703489B63435E45E642712C5E612C48@EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: Hardware Viruses? Thread-Index: AQHIq5WaP+4+49hX9E6s+YzGwlEjWw== Accept-Language: en-US acceptlanguage: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Listbox-UUID: E7EC9E5E-1788-11DD-BC6D-4EF956A607E7 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 The full paper is fun. djf ________________________________________ From: Kenneth_Mayer@Dell.com [Kenneth_Mayer@Dell.com] Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 10:11 AM To: David Farber; rforno@infowarrior.org Subject: Hardware Viruses? You are concerned about spam and viruses? You ain't seen nothing yet, believe researchers from the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (UIUC): A next phase of more sophisticated viruses may not only exist in software, but may be deeply embedded in hardware, or what the scientists describe as ""malicious circuits". http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/37206/108/ Thanks, Ken Mayer Jr., M.B.A. Server and Network Specialist Advanced System Group Dell Inc., -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Thu May 1 20:26:16 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0700201T7JYL@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 01 May 2008 20:26:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0700201T7BY8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Thu, 01 May 2008 20:25:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from thorn.listbox.com (thorn.listbox.com [208.210.124.75]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K0700L42EYOPG@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 01 May 2008 15:18:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8B30C11B for ; Thu, 01 May 2008 15:19:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cygnus.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3ADC3AB for ; Thu, 01 May 2008 14:17:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXHUB016-4.exch016.msoutlookonline.net (exhub016-4.exch016.msoutlookonline.net [207.5.72.225]) by cygnus.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 486D3AA for ; Thu, 01 May 2008 14:16:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.237.252.219] (128.237.252.219) by smtpx16.msoutlookonline.net (207.5.72.190) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.263.0; Thu, 01 May 2008 11:16:35 -0700 Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 14:15:34 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] House committee investigation blames Martin for FCC's 'broken process' To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <3E6367DA-36DF-4B29-8B31-2B5DCA73AC3A@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 4A102) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (4A102) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-1--569698080 X-Listbox-UUID: BF128F62-17AA-11DD-958B-3A3957A607E7 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <8295F2D4B0857B7BDB5C4BE0@[192.168.44.88]> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Apple-Mail-1--569698080 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; format=flowed; delsp=yes Begin forwarded message: > From: Kurt Albershardt > Date: May 1, 2008 1:50:27 PM EDT > To: David Farber > Subject: House committee investigation blames Martin for FCC's > 'broken process' > > > > House committee investigation blames Martin for FCC's 'broken process' > > Hearings proposed for June > > By Jeffrey Silva > Story posted: April 30, 2008 - 2:11 pm EDT > > > Federal Communications Commission Chairman Kevin Martin's troubles > on Capitol Hill could be taking a turn for the worse. > > House Commerce Committee investigators have recommended to Chairman > John Dingell (D-Mich.) that hearings on FCC management practices be > held in June, citing results to date from a probe of the issue that > began late last year. > > "We have conducted more than 30 interviews with current and former > [FCC] employees as well as industry representatives and private > citizens. The bottom line is that the [FCC] process appears broken > and most of the blame appears to rest with Chairman Martin," stated > an April 28 staff memo to Dingell and oversight and investigations > subcommittee Chairman Bart Stupak (D-Mich.). > > The FCC was not the only the focus of six-page memo, which laid out > a proposed schedule for upcoming hearings and provided status > reports on investigations in various industry sectors under the full > committee's purview. > > "We have no comment at this time," said an FCC spokesman. > > "No hearings have been scheduled," said a committee spokesman. > > ... > > > > > ------------------------------------------- --Apple-Mail-1--569698080 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"




Begin forwarded message:

From: Kurt Albershardt <kurt@nv.net>
Date: May 1, 2008 1:50:27 PM EDT
<= b>To: David Farber <dave@farber.n= et>
Subject: House committee investigation blames Marti= n for FCC's 'broken process'

<http://rcrnews.com/apps/p= bcs.dll/article?AID=3D/20080430/FREE/740871533/1005>
House committee investigation blames Martin for FCC's 'broken process'

Hearings proposed for June

By Jeffrey Silva
Story posted: April 30, 200= 8 - 2:11 pm EDT


Federal C= ommunications Commission Chairman Kevin Martin's troubles on Capitol Hill c= ould be taking a turn for the worse.

House= Commerce Committee investigators have recommended to Chairman John Dingell= (D-Mich.) that hearings on FCC management practices be held in June, citin= g results to date from a probe of the issue that began late last year.

"We have conducted more than 30 interviews wit= h current and former [FCC] employees as well as industry representatives an= d private citizens. The bottom line is that the [FCC] process appears broke= n and most of the blame appears to rest with Chairman Martin," stated an Ap= ril 28 staff memo to Dingell and oversight and investigations subcommittee = Chairman Bart Stupak (D-Mich.).

The FCC wa= s not the only the focus of six-page memo, which laid out a proposed schedu= le for upcoming hearings and provided status reports on investigations in v= arious industry sectors under the full committee's purview.

"We have no comment at this time," said an FCC spokesman.=

"No hearings have been scheduled," said a= committee spokesman.

...
=



=
= --Apple-Mail-1--569698080--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri May 2 21:41:18 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0900B01RCJUE@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 02 May 2008 21:41:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0900B01RC3TR@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 02 May 2008 21:40:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from chiclet.listbox.com (chiclet.pobox.com [208.210.124.77]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K0900LAV48PQK@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 02 May 2008 13:22:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chiclet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B97281C8BC8 for ; Fri, 02 May 2008 13:23:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cygnus.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B3B098 for ; Fri, 02 May 2008 12:59:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXHUB016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net (exhub016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net [207.5.72.226]) by cygnus.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0036BA4 for ; Fri, 02 May 2008 12:59:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.173]) by EXHUB016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.226]) with mapi; Fri, 02 May 2008 09:59:17 -0700 Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 09:58:58 -0700 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: Security clearances, lie detectors, etc. To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0E6E608443A703489B63435E45E642712C5E612C55@EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: approve:hamming Re: Security clearances, lie detectors, etc. Thread-Index: AQHIrHXaMtGYRFZUeky6EoACebjSGg== Accept-Language: en-US acceptlanguage: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Listbox-UUID: 1B4AADA0-1869-11DD-9357-151457A607E7 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Seconded djf ________________________________________ From: David P. Reed [dpreed@reed.com] Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 11:22 AM To: David Farber Cc: ip Subject: Re: [IP] Security clearances, lie detectors, etc. I wonder if it's worth asking a deeper question here: What evidence do we have that Security Clearances themselves actually work? And for that matter is there a well-understood and clear definition of what a Security Clearance is supposed to achieve? This question has been asked for so-called "lie detectors", which have no accepted scientific validity for broad-spectrum discrimination of falsehoods. I spent a day last week with representatives of the FBI and ICE concerned with implementing the legal requirements related to foreign nationals on campus, such as "deemed export". The biggest current debate in "deemed export" implementation seems to be whether they are allowed to take into account "country of birth" rather than "country of current citizenship and residence" in deciding when a "deemed export" happens when a foreign student uses a device that incorporates export-controlled technology (merely using a supercomputer or a using an advanced thermal imaging instrument is deemed to require an export license to the countries that user is affiliated with). Ignoring the workability of deemed export rules, one can construct a case that some student born in Iran might have been deliberately raised in, and given Canadian citizenship merely as a ruse to steal US's advanced technology, right? As a US citizen who values my country's survival, I think it's terribly important to hold the "security clearance" and other "vetting" processes accountable and reliable. Thus, perhaps we need to think about this as a scientific question. Are there any peer-reviewed xtudies that show that such vetting procedures actually detect spies and prevent bombs from being built? I suspect that the goal is to channel people who like to express prejudices in their jobs. It can be fun to screw "others", right - especially when the whole society has a lot of hate for Chinese and Arabic people. -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri May 2 21:41:19 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0900B01RCJUE@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 02 May 2008 21:41:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0900B01RC3TR@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 02 May 2008 21:40:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from thorn.listbox.com (thorn.listbox.com [208.210.124.75]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K0900LFQ4P7QK@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 02 May 2008 13:31:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96DFABD24 for ; Fri, 02 May 2008 13:33:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cygnus.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0873A0 for ; Fri, 02 May 2008 12:42:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXHUB016-4.exch016.msoutlookonline.net (exhub016-4.exch016.msoutlookonline.net [207.5.72.225]) by cygnus.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12CDA98 for ; Fri, 02 May 2008 12:42:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.173]) by EXHUB016-4.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.225]) with mapi; Fri, 02 May 2008 09:42:30 -0700 Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 09:42:18 -0700 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: Hardware Viruses? To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0E6E608443A703489B63435E45E642712C5E612C54@EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: Re: Hardware Viruses? Thread-Index: AQHIrHOBZbwWMj3y4U6IIVaodMgpng== Accept-Language: en-US acceptlanguage: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Listbox-UUID: C57A78BC-1866-11DD-9047-0EFE56A607E7 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 ________________________________________ From: Andrew C Burnette [acb@acb.net] Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 9:52 AM To: David Farber Cc: Kenneth_Mayer@Dell.com Subject: Re: [IP] Hardware Viruses? Dave, Ken, I would say the article is inaccurate in the statement that the hardware vector is more difficult. On the contrary, ten years ago, the external peripherals I connected to my machine were limited to mice, keyboards and perhaps a printer. Even further back, hard drives themselves had no intelligent controllers (the interfaces today are false/logical, and have zero to do with actual drive construction, geometry to simplify the OS interface) Now the list of peripherals is nearly endless. Given the ever shifting blur between hardware and software, how is this vector different than seagate shipping blank hard drives with viruses onboard, or all HD manufacturers shipping normal drives with "hidden" areas that may have been marked as dubious during manufacturing, but could just as easily be used to copy unencrypted data, despite your use of an encryption program on the 'normal' part of the drive. You may purchase a 250G drive, which was originally manufactured as a 400G drive but had sufficient errors (or not) to warrant programming the drive to 250Gigs of "good" capacity. It works the same way as speed binning in CPU selection. (yes, there are hooks within several OS's drivers to view/read/use those areas marked offlimits by the ondrive controller) CPU's and the BIOS' on motherboards are equally suspect, as the majority (recall the pictureframe virus? of which the picture frames are still available for sale) we now innocently connect to our computing devices. Do you now trust the AES onchip CPU implementations, or the TCP offload processing embedded in NIC cards? How about device drivers? The vectors of hardware compromise are essentially endless, and the wave of consumer/prosumer devices in use have returned us to the days of "sneaker net" delivery of viruses and malware. We're simply dealing with better written code now. added to our 'default allow' rules on every SOHO firewall/NAT box in addition to most corporate firewalls provide a direct outbound route for any and all interesting data harvested by any malware, hardware/microcode or software based. Regards, andy burnette David Farber wrote: > The full paper is fun. djf > > ________________________________________ > From: Kenneth_Mayer@Dell.com [Kenneth_Mayer@Dell.com] > Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 10:11 AM > To: David Farber; rforno@infowarrior.org > Subject: Hardware Viruses? > > You are concerned about spam and viruses? You ain't seen nothing yet, > believe researchers from the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign > (UIUC): A next phase of more sophisticated viruses may not only exist in > software, but may be deeply embedded in hardware, or what the scientists > describe as ""malicious circuits". > > > http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/37206/108/ > > > Thanks, > > Ken Mayer Jr., M.B.A. > Server and Network Specialist > Advanced System Group Dell Inc., > > ------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri May 2 21:41:20 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0900B01RCJUE@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 02 May 2008 21:41:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0900B01RC3TR@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 02 May 2008 21:40:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cygnus.listbox.com (cygnus.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K09009AZ7IZM2@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 02 May 2008 14:32:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cygnus.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 803549D for ; Fri, 02 May 2008 14:33:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chiclet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED9CA1C8CB9 for ; Fri, 02 May 2008 14:14:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXHUB016-1.exch016.msoutlookonline.net (exhub016-1.exch016.msoutlookonline.net [207.5.72.163]) by chiclet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CB8F1C8BE0 for ; Fri, 02 May 2008 14:14:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.173]) by EXHUB016-1.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.163]) with mapi; Fri, 02 May 2008 11:14:11 -0700 Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 11:13:41 -0700 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: Security clearances, lie detectors, etc. To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0E6E608443A703489B63435E45E642712C5E612C57@EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: approve:hamming Re: Security clearances, lie detectors, etc. Thread-Index: AQHIrIBRmw5buncuWUOY/asaEf2Z0Q== Accept-Language: en-US acceptlanguage: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Listbox-UUID: A076BDFC-1873-11DD-9C51-DC9E777785CC X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 ________________________________________ From: Paul Robichaux [PaulR@3sharp.com] Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 1:32 PM To: David Farber; ip Subject: Re: [IP] Re: Security clearances, lie detectors, etc. AIUI one key metric used in determining whether an individual should be gra= nted a clearance is the perceived susceptibility of that individual to outs= ide pressure. I note that the example on the list yesterday=97 of the publi= cly gay person who received a clearance=97 is not uncommon. Public acknowle= dgement of homosexuality (or, really, almost any other kind of sexual behav= ior) isn=92t a bar to a clearance=97 you can=92t blackmail someone for some= thing they freely admit doing or having done.[1] T The clearance process thus seems to focus on looking for unadmitted behavio= rs (gambling? Drug use? Belonging to the =93wrong=94 organizations? Unexpla= ined income?), on the theory that honest people will fully disclose everyth= ing to the clearance-granting authorities and thus cannot be pressured or b= lackmailed. Likewise, having friends or relations in some countries, or ongoing contact= s with nationals or residents of those countries, has been a basis for deny= ing clearances based on the possibility that those relationships might be u= sed to pressure a clearance holder. So to turn Dr. Reed=92s question around a bit, what evidence do we have tha= t the clearance process is effective at identifying a) potential risk facto= rs that might make it possible to subvert a given candidate and b) showing = that those risk factors are really risks? [1] Parallels to Sen. Obama=92s confession of youthful drug use are left as= an exercise to the reader. -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri May 2 21:41:21 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0900B01RCJUE@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 02 May 2008 21:41:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0900B01RC3TR@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 02 May 2008 21:40:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from thorn.listbox.com (thorn.listbox.com [208.210.124.75]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K09009HU8KDM2@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 02 May 2008 14:55:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11A9ABED8 for ; Fri, 02 May 2008 14:56:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFC9CBF02 for ; Fri, 02 May 2008 14:13:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXHUB016-4.exch016.msoutlookonline.net (exhub016-4.exch016.msoutlookonline.net [207.5.72.225]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33A83BD24 for ; Fri, 02 May 2008 14:12:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.173]) by EXHUB016-4.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.225]) with mapi; Fri, 02 May 2008 11:12:16 -0700 Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 11:12:01 -0700 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: Hardware Viruses? To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0E6E608443A703489B63435E45E642712C5E612C56@EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: Re: Hardware Viruses? Thread-Index: AQHIrIAKubOHd3byDkCbS0AMt5U1tw== Accept-Language: en-US acceptlanguage: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Listbox-UUID: 5D1B26EC-1873-11DD-9DF0-DE8D66D9244B X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 ________________________________________ From: Bob Drzyzgula [bob@drzyzgula.org] Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 1:22 PM To: David Farber Cc: ip Subject: Re: [IP] Re: Hardware Viruses? Dave, Interesting related story in the May 2008 IEEE Spectrum. --Bob Drzyzgula http://spectrum.ieee.org/may08/6171 | The Hunt for the Kill Switch | By Sally Adee | | First Published May 2008 | | Are chip makers building electronic trapdoors in key | military hardware? The Pentagon is making its biggest | effort yet to find out | | --- | | Last September, Israeli jets bombed a suspected | nuclear installation in northeastern Syria. Among | the many mysteries still surrounding that strike | was the failure of a Syrian radar=97supposedly | state-of-the-art=97to warn the Syrian military of | the incoming assault. It wasn't long before military | and technology bloggers concluded that this was | an incident of electronic warfare=97and not just | any kind. | | Post after post speculated that the commercial | off-the-shelf microprocessors in the Syrian radar | might have been purposely fabricated with a hidden | =93backdoor=94 inside. By sending a preprogrammed code | to those chips, an unknown antagonist had disrupted | the chips' function and temporarily blocked the radar. | | That same basic scenario is cropping up more | frequently lately, and not just in the Middle East, | where conspiracy theories abound. According to a | U.S. defense contractor who spoke on condition of | anonymity, a =93European chip maker=94 recently built | into its microprocessors a kill switch that could be | accessed remotely. French defense contractors have | used the chips in military equipment, the contractor | told IEEE Spectrum. If in the future the equipment | fell into hostile hands, =93the French wanted a | way to disable that circuit,=94 he said. Spectrum | could not confirm this account independently, but | spirited discussion about it among researchers and | another defense contractor last summer at a military | research conference reveals a lot about the fever | dreams plaguing the U.S. Department of Defense (DOD). | | Feeding those dreams is the Pentagon's realization | that it no longer controls who manufactures the | components that go into its increasingly complex | systems... On Fri, May 02, 2008 at 09:42:18AM -0700, David Farber wrote: > Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 9:52 AM > To: David Farber > Cc: Kenneth_Mayer@Dell.com > Subject: Re: [IP] Hardware Viruses? > > Dave, Ken, > > I would say the article is inaccurate in the statement that the hardware > vector is more difficult. > > On the contrary, ten years ago, the external peripherals I connected to > my machine were limited to mice, keyboards and perhaps a printer. Even > further back, hard drives themselves had no intelligent controllers (the > interfaces today are false/logical, and have zero to do with actual > drive construction, geometry to simplify the OS interface) Now the list > of peripherals is nearly endless. > ... -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri May 2 21:41:22 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0900B01RCJUE@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 02 May 2008 21:41:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0900B01RC3TR@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 02 May 2008 21:40:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from chiclet.listbox.com (chiclet.pobox.com [208.210.124.77]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K0700OJDTTSJ1@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 01 May 2008 20:39:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chiclet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16A491C67AD for ; Thu, 01 May 2008 20:40:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cygnus.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A6C796 for ; Thu, 01 May 2008 20:20:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXHUB016-4.exch016.msoutlookonline.net (exhub016-4.exch016.msoutlookonline.net [207.5.72.225]) by cygnus.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 558A298 for ; Thu, 01 May 2008 20:20:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.173]) by EXHUB016-4.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.225]) with mapi; Thu, 01 May 2008 17:20:40 -0700 Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 17:20:26 -0700 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] USG to automate security clearance reviews To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0E6E608443A703489B63435E45E642712C5E612C4B@EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: USG to automate security clearance reviews Thread-Index: AQHIq+pYsuPpTQ/rOEyWmBolGwfbiQ== Accept-Language: en-US acceptlanguage: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Listbox-UUID: 9A73E330-17DD-11DD-A22C-741A57A607E7 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 ________________________________________ From: Richard Forno [rforno@infowarrior.org] Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 7:57 PM To: Infowarrior List Cc: David Farber Subject: USG to automate security clearance reviews This should be....interesting to watch develop. -rf Government to automate security clearance reviews By STEPHEN LOSEY May 01, 2008 http://federaltimes.com/index.php?S=3D3507324 Bush administration officials want to have a plan in place to automate most aspects of the security clearance process by the time a new administration arrives. The plan, announced today, calls for a system that will accept online clearance applications, perform automated records checks, approve or deny some clearances using automated tools, and use automation to find red flags in applicants=B9 background files and better target where field investigato= rs focus their attention, Clay Johnson, deputy director for management at the Office of Management and Budget, said today. But details on how and when this new system will be in place =8B and how mu= ch it will cost =8B is still unknown. Johnson said he and other officials at t= he White House, the Office of Personnel Management, Defense Department and the Office of the Director of National Intelligence will release a series of reports this year with more information. Johnson said a big part of the plan is that computers will be regularly checking government and commercial databases to review relevant criminal, financial and other records of people who hold security clearances. Data on people holding top secret clearances will be reviewed every year and people holding secret clearances will be reviewed every five years. Top secret reinvestigations are now conducted every five years and secret reinvestigations are conducted about every 10 years. Johnson said he hopes the new system will enable field investigators to spend their time investigating only those leads that have not been resolved through automation. Investigators now investigate all aspects of an applicant=B9s background, which Johnson said is inefficient. =B3We=B9ve been making determinations the same way for 50 years, and it=B9s= time to change the way we do it,=B2 Johnson said. -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri May 2 21:41:23 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0900B01RCJUE@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 02 May 2008 21:41:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0900B01RC3TR@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 02 May 2008 21:40:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from chiclet.listbox.com (chiclet.pobox.com [208.210.124.77]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K0700417U9DTW@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 01 May 2008 20:48:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chiclet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26AF01C6359 for ; Thu, 01 May 2008 20:50:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chiclet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB6121C6681 for ; Thu, 01 May 2008 20:33:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXHUB016-2.exch016.msoutlookonline.net (exhub016-2.exch016.msoutlookonline.net [207.5.72.164]) by chiclet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 439A81C6726 for ; Thu, 01 May 2008 20:32:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.173]) by EXHUB016-2.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.164]) with mapi; Thu, 01 May 2008 17:32:23 -0700 Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 17:32:02 -0700 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: USG to automate security clearance reviews To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0E6E608443A703489B63435E45E642712C5E612C4C@EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: approve:hamming Re: USG to automate security clearance reviews Thread-Index: AQHIq+v5pqCy1PLa3UuV0HFL2o9LXw== Accept-Language: en-US acceptlanguage: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Listbox-UUID: 4B282C8A-17DF-11DD-BB11-A84A91D6B878 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 ________________________________________ From: Lauren Weinstein [lauren@vortex.com] Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 8:28 PM To: David Farber Cc: lauren@vortex.com Subject: Re: [IP] USG to automate security clearance reviews Dave, How handy. The next time a "bad apple" slips through the clearance process and causes a whirlwind of negative publicity, there may not even be a human to blame. Just whip out the old tried-and-true "software problems" excuse! I guess that blaming individuals who fail their responsibilities is one of those nasty "inefficiences" that Johnson is talking about, eh? --Lauren-- Lauren Weinstein lauren@vortex.com or lauren@pfir.org Tel: +1 (818) 225-2800 http://www.pfir.org/lauren Co-Founder, PFIR - People For Internet Responsibility - http://www.pfir.org Co-Founder, NNSquad - Network Neutrality Squad - http://www.nnsquad.org Founder, PRIVACY Forum - http://www.vortex.com Member, ACM Committee on Computers and Public Policy Lauren's Blog: http://lauren.vortex.com - - - > ________________________________________ > From: Richard Forno [rforno@infowarrior.org] > Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 7:57 PM > To: Infowarrior List > Cc: David Farber > Subject: USG to automate security clearance reviews > > This should be....interesting to watch develop. -rf > > > Government to automate security clearance reviews > By STEPHEN LOSEY > May 01, 2008 > http://federaltimes.com/index.php?S=3D3507324 > > Bush administration officials want to have a plan in place to automate mo= st > aspects of the security clearance process by the time a new administration > arrives. > > The plan, announced today, calls for a system that will accept online > clearance applications, perform automated records checks, approve or deny > some clearances using automated tools, and use automation to find red fla= gs > in applicants=B9 background files and better target where field investiga= tors > focus their attention, Clay Johnson, deputy director for management at the > Office of Management and Budget, said today. > > But details on how and when this new system will be in place =8B and how = much > it will cost =8B is still unknown. Johnson said he and other officials at= the > White House, the Office of Personnel Management, Defense Department and t= he > Office of the Director of National Intelligence will release a series of > reports this year with more information. > > Johnson said a big part of the plan is that computers will be regularly > checking government and commercial databases to review relevant criminal, > financial and other records of people who hold security clearances. Data = on > people holding top secret clearances will be reviewed every year and peop= le > holding secret clearances will be reviewed every five years. Top secret > reinvestigations are now conducted every five years and secret > reinvestigations are conducted about every 10 years. > > Johnson said he hopes the new system will enable field investigators to > spend their time investigating only those leads that have not been resolv= ed > through automation. Investigators now investigate all aspects of an > applicant=B9s background, which Johnson said is inefficient. > > =B3We=B9ve been making determinations the same way for 50 years, and it= =B9s time > to change the way we do it,=B2 Johnson said. > > > > ------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri May 2 21:41:24 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0900B01RCJUE@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 02 May 2008 21:41:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0900B01RC3TR@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 02 May 2008 21:40:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cygnus.listbox.com (cygnus.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K07004N6VWCTW@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 01 May 2008 21:24:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cygnus.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 227ABA1 for ; Thu, 01 May 2008 21:25:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D58ABBFD for ; Thu, 01 May 2008 21:05:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXHUB016-1.exch016.msoutlookonline.net (exhub016-1.exch016.msoutlookonline.net [207.5.72.163]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DF38BCDA for ; Thu, 01 May 2008 21:04:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.173]) by EXHUB016-1.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.163]) with mapi; Thu, 01 May 2008 18:04:16 -0700 Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 18:02:28 -0700 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Happy 30th Anniversary of Spam To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0E6E608443A703489B63435E45E642712C5E612C4E@EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: Happy 30th Anniversary of Spam Thread-Index: AQHIq/BrGxELCUPHOUawOFvtW8ahfA== Accept-Language: en-US acceptlanguage: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Listbox-UUID: C26650FC-17E3-11DD-8A7A-454566D9244B X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 I remember being real unhappy that DEC did not know of bcc and there were p= ages of to: addresses. djf ________________________________________ From: Gregory Hicks [ghicks@cadence.com] Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 8:44 PM To: David Farber Cc: ghicks@cadence.com Subject: [funsec] Happy 30th Anniversary of Spam Prof Farber: I notice that you received a copy of this SPAM 30 years ago... At RAND-UNIX... regards, Gregory Hicks ------------- Begin Forwarded Message ------------- Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 19:15:26 -0500 From: Gary Warner To: funsec@linuxbox.org Subject: [funsec] Happy 30th Anniversary of Spam -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Mail-from: DEC-MARLBORO rcvd at 3-May-78 0955-PDT Date: 1 May 1978 1233-EDT From: THUERK at DEC-MARLBORO Subject: ADRIAN@SRI-KL To: DDAY at SRI-KL, DAY at SRI-KL, DEBOER at UCLA-CCN, To: WASHDC at SRI-KL, LOGICON at USC-ISI, SDAC at USC-ISI, To: DELDO at USC-ISI, DELEOT at USC-ISI, DELFINO at USC-ISI, To: DENICOFF at USC-ISI, DESPAIN at USC-ISI, DEUTSCH at SRI-KL, To: DEUTSCH at PARC-MAXC, EMY at CCA-TENEX, DIETER at USC-ISIB, To: DINES at AMES-67, MERADCON at SRI-KL, EPG-SPEC at SRI-KA, To: DIVELY at SRI-KL, DODD at USC-ISI, DONCHIN at USC-ISIC, To: JED at LLL-COMP, DORIN at CCA-TENEX, NYU at SRI-KA, To: DOUGHERTY at USC-ISI, PACOMJ6 at USC-ISI, To: DEBBY at UCLA-SECURITY, BELL at SRI-KL, JHANNON at SRI-KA, To: DUBOIS at 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GILLOGLY at RAND-UNIX, STEVE at RAND-UNIX, To: GLEASON at SRI-KL, JAG;BIN(1525) at UCLA-CCN, To: GOLD at LL-11, GOLDBERG at USC-ISIB, GOLDGERG at SRI-KL, To: GROBSTEIN at SRI-KL, GOLDSTEIN at BBN-TENEXB, To: DARPM-NW at BBN-TENEXB, GOODENOUGH at USC-ISIB, To: GEOFF at SRI-KL, GOODRICH at I4-TENEX, GOODWIN at USC-ISI, To: GOVINSKY at SRI-KL, DEAN at I4-TENEX, TEG at MIT-MULTICS, To: CCG at SU-AI, EPG-SPEC at SRI-KA, GRISS at USC-ECL, To: BJG at RAND-UNIX, MCCUTCHEN at SRI-KL, GROBSTEIN at SRI-KL, To: MOBAH at I4-TENEX, GUSTAFSON at USC-ISIB, GUTHARY at SRI-KL, To: GUTTAG at USC-ISIB, GUYTON at RAND-RCC, To: ETAC-AD at BBN-TENEXB, HAGMANN at USC-ECL, HALE at I4-TENEX, To: HALFF at USC-ISI, DEHALL at MIT-MULTICS, To: HAMPEL at LLL-COMP, HANNAH at USC-ISI, To: NORSAR-TIP at USC-ISIC, SCRL at USC-ISI, HAPPY at SRI-KL, To: HARDY at SRI-KL, IMPACT at SRI-KL, KLH at SRI-KL, To: J33PAC at USC-ISI, HARRISON at SRI-KL, WALSH at SRI-KL, To: DRCPM-FF at BBN-TENEXB, HART at AMES-67, HART at SRI-KL, To: HATHAWAY at AMES-67, AFWL at I4-TENEX, BHR at RAND-UNIX, To: RICK at RAND-UNIX, DEBE at USC-ISIB, HEARN at USC-ECL, To: HEATH at UCLA-ATS, HEITMEYER at BBN-TENEX, ADTA at SRI-KA, To: HENDRIX at SRI-KL, CH47M at BBN-TENEXB, HILLIER at SRI-KL, To: HISS at I4-TENEX, ASLAB at USC-ISIC, HOLG at USC-ISIB, To: HOLLINGWORTH at USC-ISIB, HOLLOWAY at HARV-10, To: HOLMES at SRI-KL, HOLSWORTH at SRI-KA, HOLT at LLL-COMP, To: HOLTHAM at LL, DHOLZMAN at RAND-UNIX, HOPPER at USC-ISIC, To: HOROWITZ at USC-ISIB, VSC at USC-ISI, HOWARD at LLL-COMP, To: HOWARD at USC-ISI, PURDUE at USC-ISI, HUBER at RAND-RCC, To: HUNER at RADC-MULTICS, HUTSON at AMES-67, IMUS at USC-ISI, To: JACOBS at USC-ISIE, JACOBS at BBN-TENEXB, To: JACQUES at BBN-TENEXB, JARVIS at PARC-MAXC, To: JEFFERS at PARC-MAXC, JENKINS at PARC-MAXC, To: JENSEN at SRI-KA, JIRAK at SUMEX-AIM, NICKIE at SRI-KL, To: JOHNSON at SUMEX-AIM, JONES at SRI-KL, JONES at LLL-COMP, To: JONES at I4-TENEX, RLJ at MIT-MC, JURAK at USC-ECL, To: KAHLER at SUMEX-AIM, MWK at SU-AI, KAINE at USC-ISIB, To: KALTGRAD at UCLA-ATS, MARK at UCLA-SECURITY, RAK at SU-AI, To: KASTNER at USC-ISIB, KATT at USC-ISIB, To: UCLA-MNC at USC-ISI, ALAN at PARC-MAXC, KEENAN at USC-ISI, To: KEHL at UCLA-CCN, KELLEY at SRI-KL, BANANA at I4-TENEX, To: KELLOGG at USC-ISI, DDI at USC-ISI, KEMERY at SRI-KL, To: KEMMERER at UCLA-ATS, PARVIZ at UCLA-ATS, KING at SUMEX-AIM, To: KIRSTEIN at USC-ISI, SDC at UCLA-SECURITY, To: KLEINROCK at USC-ISI, KLEMBA at SRI-KL, CSK at USC-ISI, To: KNIGHT at SRI-KL, KNOX at USC-ISI, KODA at USC-ISIB, To: KODANI at AMES-67, KOOIJ at USC-ISI, KREMERS at SRI-KL, To: BELL at SRI-KL, KUNZELMAN at SRI-KL, PROJX at SRI-KL, To: LAMPSON at PARC-MAXC, SDL at RAND-UNIX, JOJO at SRI-KL, To: SDC at USC-ISI, NELC3030 at USC-ISI, To: LEDERBERG at SUMEX-AIM, LEDUC at SRI-KL, JSLEE at USC-ECL, To: JACOBS at USC-ISIE, WREN at USC-ISIB, LEMONS at USC-ISIB, To: LEUNG at SRI-KL, J33PAC at USC-ISI, LEVIN at USC-ISIB, To: LEVINTHAL at SUMEX-AIM, LICHTENBERGER at I4-TENEX, To: LICHTENSTEIN at USC-ISI, LIDDLE at PARC-MAXC, To: LIEB at USC-ISIB, LIEBERMAN at SRI-KL, STANL at USC-ISIE, To: LIERE at I4-TENEX, DOCB at USC-ISIC, LINDSAY at SRI-KL, To: LINEBARGER at AMES-67, LIPKIS at USC-ECL, SLES at USC-ISI, To: LIS at SRI-KL, LONDON at USC-ISIB, J33PAC at USC-ISI, To: LOPER at SRI-KA, LOUVIGNY at SRI-KL, LOVELACE at USC-ISIB, To: LUCANIC at SRI-KL, LUCAS at USC-ISIB, DCL at SU-AI, To: LUDLAM at UCLA-CCN, YNGVAR at SRI-KA, LYNCH at SRI-KL, To: LYNN at USC-ISIB, MABREY at SRI-KL, MACKAY at AMES-67, To: MADER at USC-ISIB, MAGILL at SRI-KL, KMAHONEY at BBN-TENEX, To: MANN at USC-ISIB, ZM at SU-AI, MANNING at USC-ISI, To: MANTIPLY at I4-TENEX, MARIN at I4-TENEX, SCRL at USC-ISI, To: HARALD at SRI-KA, GLORIA-JEAN at UCLA-CCN, MARTIN at USC-ISIC, To: WMARTIN at USC-ISI, GRM at RAND-UNIX, MASINTER at USC-ISI, To: MASON at USC-ISIB, MATHIS at SRI-KL, MAYNARD at USC-ISIC, To: MCBREARTY at SRI-KL, MCCALL at SRI-KA, MCCARTHY at SU-AI, To: MCCLELLAND at USC-ISI, DORIS at RAND-UNIX, MCCLURG at SRI-KL, To: JOHN at I4-TENEX, MCCREIGHT at PARC-MAXC, MCCRUMB at USC-ISI, To: DRXTE at SRI-KA cc: BPM at SU-AI Note here how we get to the body of the message and there are still addresses going into it that wouldn't fit! MCKINLEY@USC-ISIB MMCM@SRI-KL OT-ITS@SRI-KA BELL@SRI-KL MEADE@SRI-KL MARTIN@USC-ISI MERRILL@BBN-TENEX METCALFE@PARC-MAXC JMETZGER@USC-ISIB MICHAEL@USC-ISIC CMILLER@SUMEX-AIM MILLER@USC-ISI SCI@USC-ISI MILLER@USC-ISIC MITCHELL@PARC-MAXC MITCHELL@USC-ISI MITCHELL@SUMEX-AIM MLM@SU-AI JPDG@TENEXB MOORE@USC-ISIB WMORE@USC-ISIB JAM@SU-AI MORAN@PARC-MAXC ROZ@SU-AI MORGAN@USC-ISIB MORRIS@PARC-MAXC MORRIS@I4-TENEX OT-ITS@SRI-KA LISA@USC-ISIB MOSHER@SRI-KL MULHERN@USC-ISI MUNTZ;BIN(1529)@UCLA-CCN MYERS@USC-ISIC MYERS@RAND-RCC DRCPM-FF-FO@BBN-TENEXB NAGEL@USC-ISIB NAPKE@SRI-KL NARDI@SRI-KL NAYLOR@USC-ISIE LOU@USC-ISIE NESBIT@RAND-RCC NEUMANN@SRI-KA NEVATIA@USC-ECL NEWBY@USC-ISI NEWEKK@SRI-KA NIELSON@SRI-KL NLL@SUMEX-AIM NILSSON@SRI-KL NITZAN@SRI-KL NOEL@USC-ISIC NORMAN@PARC-MAXC NORTON@SRI-KL JOAN@USC-ISIB NOURSE@SUMEX-AIM PDG@SRI-KL OMALLEY@SRI-KA OCKEN@USC-ISIC OESTREICHER@USC-ISIB OGDEN@SRI-KA OKINAKA@USC-ISIE OLSON@I4-TENEX ORNSTEIN@PARC-MAXC PANKO@SRI-KL TED@SU-AI PARK@SRI-KL PBARAN@USC-ISI PARKER@USC-ISIB PEARCE@USC-ISI PEPIN@USC-ECL PERKINS@USC-ISIB PETERS@SRI-KL AMPETERSON@USC-ISI ASLAB@USC-ISIC EPG-SPEC@SRI-KA PEZDIRTZ@LLL-COMP CHARLIE@I4-TENEX UCLA-DOC@USC-ISI WPHILLIPS@USC-ISI PIERCY@MOFFETT-ARC PINE@SRI-KL PIPES@I4-TENEX PIRTLE@SRI-KL POGGIO@USC-ISIC POH@USC-ISI POOL@BBN-TENEX POPEK@USC-ISI POSTEL@USC-ISIB POWER@SRI-KL PRICE@USC-ECL RANDALL@USC-ISIB RANDALL@SRI-KA RAPHAEL@SRI-KL RAPP@RAND-RCC RASMUSSEN@USC-ISIC RATTNER@SRI-KL RAY@ILL-NTX FNWC@I4-TENEX BRL@SRI-KL RETZ@SRI-KL SKIP@USC-ISIB RICHARDSON@USC-ISIB RICHES@USC-ECL GWEN@USC-ECL OP-RIEDEL@USC-ISIB RIES@LLL-COMP RINDFLEISCH@SUMEX-AIM OP-ROBBINS@USC-ISIB ROBINSON@SRI-KL JROBINSON@SRI-KL RODRIQUEZ@SRI-KL MARTIN@USC-ISI ROM@USC-ISIC ROMIEZ@I4-TENEX ROSE@USC-ISI ROSEN@SRI-KL BARBARA@I4-TENEX ROTHENBERG@USC-ISIB RUBIN@SRI-KL JBR@SU-AI RUBINSTEIN@BBN-TENEXD RUDY@USC-ECL RUGGERI@SRI-KA RULIFSON@PARC-MAXC DALE@USC-ISIB SACERDOTI@SRI-KL SAGALOWICZ@SRI-KL ALS@SU-AI SANTONI@USC-ISIC SATTERTHWAITE@PARC-MAXC SAWCHUK@USC-ECL CPF-CC@USC-ISI SCHELONKA@USC-ISI SCHILL@USC-ISIC SCHILLING@USC-ISI SCHULZ@SUMEX-AIM SCOTT@SUMEX-AIM CPF-CC@USC-ISI OP-SEATON@USC-ISIB SENNE@LL NORM@RAND-UNIX AFWL@14-TENEX SHEPPARD@LL-ASG SHERWIN@USC-ISI SHERWOOD@SRI-KL SHORT@SRI-KL SHORTLIFE@SUMEX-AIM SHOSHANI@BBN-TENEX MARTIN@USC-ISI UCLA-NMC@USC-ISIE SDL@USC-ISIC SKOCYPEC@USC-ISI SLES@USC-ISI SLOTTOW@UCLA-CCN NOAA@14-TENEX SMALL@USC-ISI DAVESMITH@PARC-MAXC DSMITH@RAND-UNIX SMITH@SUMEX-AIM SMITH@USC-ECL MARCIE@I4-TENEX USARSGEUR@USC-ISI LOGICON@USC-ISI EPA@SRI-KL SONDEREGGER@USC-ISIB SPEER@LL AMICON-RN@USC-ISI SPROULL@PARC-MAXC PROJX@SRI-KL STEF@SRI-KA STEFIK@SUMEX-AIM STEPHENS@SRI-KA CFD@I4-TENEX STOCKHAM@SRI-KA STOTZ@USC-ISIB ALLEN@UCLA-SECURITY STOUTE@MIT-ML STRADLING@SRI-KL STROLLO@PARC-MAXC UCLA-0638@UCLA-CCN CRT@SRI-KA SUNSHINE@RAND-UNIX SUTHERLAND@SRI-KL SUTHERLAND@RAND-UNIX SUTHERLAND@PARC-MAXC SUTTON@USC-ISIC SWEER@SUMEX-AIM TAFT@PARC-MAXC TAYLOR@USC-ISIB TAYLOR@PARC-MAXC TAYNAI@SUMEX-AIM TEITELMAN@PARC-MAXC TENENBAUM@SRI-KL GREEP@RAND-UNIX TERRY@SUMEX-AIM TESLER@PARC-MAXC THACKER@PARC-MAXC PWT@RAND-UNIX TIPPIT@USC-ISIE TOBAGI@USC-ISIE TOGNETTI@SUMEX-AIM TORRES@SRI-KL TOWNLEY@HARV-10 ELINA@UCLA-ATS TUCKER@SUMEX-AIM TUGENDER@USC-ISIB LLLSRG@MIT-MC UNCAPHER@USC-ISIB NOSC@SRI-KL UNTULIS@SRI-KL MIKE@UCLA-SECURITY AARDVARK@UCLA-ATS UZGALIS;BIN(0836)@UCLA-CCN VANGOETHEM@UCLA-CCN VANMIEROP@USC-ISIB VANNOUHUYS@SRI-KL VEIZADES@SUMEX-AIM VESECKY@USC-ISI AV@MIT-DMS VICTOR@USC-ISIC VIDAL@UCLA-SECURITY OP-VILAIN@USC-ISIB RV@RAND-UNIX SDL@USC-ISIC VOLPE@SRI-KL VONNEGUT@I4-TENEX VU@SRI-KL WACTLAR@CMU-10A WAGNER@USC-ISI WAHRMAN@RAND-UNIX WALDINGER@SRI-KL WALKER@UCLA-SECURITY WALKER@SRI-KL WALLACE@PARC-MAXC EVE@UCLA-SECURITY LOGICON@USC-ISI DON@RAND-UNIX WATSON@USC-ISIC WEIDEL@USC-ECL WEINBERG@SRI-KL JLW@MIT-AI LAUREN@UCLA-SECURITY WEISSMAN@I4-TENEX WELLS@USC-ISIC GERSH@USC-ISI WETHEREL@LLL-COMP RWW@SU-AI SCRL@USC-ISI TWHELLER@SRI-KA MABREY@SRI-KL WHITE@PARC-MAXC WHITE@SUMEX-AIM WIEDERHOLD@SUMEX-AIM WILBER@SRI-KL EPG-SPEC@SRI-KA WILCOX@SUMEX-AIM WILCZYNSKI@USC-ISIB WILE@USC-ISIB OP-WILLIAMS@USC-ISIB WILSON@USC-ISIB TW@SU-AI SCI@USC-ISI WISNIEWSKI@RAND-UNIX WOLF@SRI-KL PAT@SU-AI NELC3030@USC-ISI WYATT@HARV-10 LEO@USC-ISIB YEH@LLL-COMP YONKE@USC-ISIB YOUNGBERG@SRI-KA ZEGERS@SRI-KL ZOLOTOW@SRI-KL ZOSEL@LLL-COMP DIGITAL WILL BE GIVING A PRODUCT PRESENTATION OF THE NEWEST MEMBERS OF THE DECSYSTEM-20 FAMILY; THE DECSYSTEM-2020, 2020T, 2060, AND 2060T. THE DECSYSTEM-20 FAMILY OF COMPUTERS HAS EVOLVED FROM THE TENEX OPERATING SYSTEM AND THE DECSYSTEM-10 COMPUTER ARCHITECTURE. BOTH THE DECSYSTEM-2060T AND 2020T OFFER FULL ARPANET SUPPORT UNDER THE TOPS-20 OPERATING SYSTEM. THE DECSYSTEM-2060 IS AN UPWARD EXTENSION OF THE CURRENT DECSYSTEM 2040 AND 2050 FAMILY. THE DECSYSTEM-2020 IS A NEW LOW END MEMBER OF THE DECSYSTEM-20 FAMILY AND FULLY SOFTWARE COMPATIBLE WITH ALL OF THE OTHER DECSYSTEM-20 MODELS. WE INVITE YOU TO COME SEE THE 2020 AND HEAR ABOUT THE DECSYSTEM-20 FAMILY AT THE TWO PRODUCT PRESENTATIONS WE WILL BE GIVING IN CALIFORNIA THIS MONTH. THE LOCATIONS WILL BE: ~ TUESDAY, MAY 9, 1978 - 2 PM ~ HYATT HOUSE (NEAR THE L.A. AIRPORT) ~ LOS ANGELES, CA ~ THURSDAY, MAY 11, 1978 - 2 PM ~ DUNFEY'S ROYAL COACH ~ SAN MATEO, CA ~ (4 MILES SOUTH OF S.F. AIRPORT AT BAYSHORE, RT 101 AND RT 92) A 2020 WILL BE THERE FOR YOU TO VIEW. ALSO TERMINALS ON-LINE TO OTHER DECSYSTEM-20 SYSTEMS THROUGH THE ARPANET. IF YOU ARE UNABLE TO ATTEND, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO CONTACT THE NEAREST DEC OFFICE FOR MORE INFORMATION ABOUT THE EXCITING DECSYSTEM-20 FAMILY. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIGl0eg79eYCOO6PsRAtnJAJwLkNvlZymOIM006+yxRQhLLjjdTQCdHIRr JCjGlphczDGlZ97kK1JoPFM=3D =3DaMH0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- _______________________________________________ Fun and Misc security discussion for OT posts. https://linuxbox.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/funsec Note: funsec is a public and open mailing list. ------------- End Forwarded Message ------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Gregory Hicks | Principal Systems Engineer Cadence Design Systems | Direct: 408.576.3609 555 River Oaks Pkwy M/S 9B1 San Jose, CA 95134 I am perfectly capable of learning from my mistakes. I will surely learn a great deal today. "A democracy is a sheep and two wolves deciding on what to have for lunch. Freedom is a well armed sheep contesting the results of the decision." "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." --Alexander Hamilton -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri May 2 21:41:25 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0900B01RCJUE@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 02 May 2008 21:41:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0900B01RC3TR@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 02 May 2008 21:40:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from thorn.listbox.com (thorn.listbox.com [208.210.124.75]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K07006UGWXCV6@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 01 May 2008 21:46:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C15EBE48 for ; Thu, 01 May 2008 21:47:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0299CBCDA for ; Thu, 01 May 2008 21:06:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXHUB016-1.exch016.msoutlookonline.net (exhub016-1.exch016.msoutlookonline.net [207.5.72.163]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04150BD0D for ; Thu, 01 May 2008 21:06:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.173]) by EXHUB016-1.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.163]) with mapi; Thu, 01 May 2008 18:05:34 -0700 Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 18:05:15 -0700 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: USG to automate security clearance reviews To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0E6E608443A703489B63435E45E642712C5E612C50@EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: approve:hamming Re: USG to automate security clearance reviews Thread-Index: AQHIq/CehQlscp3yAkKxI0tGqJx/cw== Accept-Language: en-US acceptlanguage: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Listbox-UUID: FA4AEE60-17E3-11DD-910A-6E4666D9244B X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 ________________________________________ From: Dan Lynch [dan@lynch.com] Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 8:34 PM To: David Farber Subject: Re: [IP] USG to automate security clearance reviews False rejections will get reviewed by humans when the person being denied complains. I doubt false acceptances will get much rescreening. Yikes! -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri May 2 21:41:26 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0900B01RCJUE@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 02 May 2008 21:41:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0900B01RC3TR@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 02 May 2008 21:40:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from chiclet.listbox.com (chiclet.pobox.com [208.210.124.77]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K0700HFFXLRH4@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 01 May 2008 22:01:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chiclet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 869081C67FC for ; Thu, 01 May 2008 22:02:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cygnus.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FB96A5 for ; Thu, 01 May 2008 21:31:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (JACKFRUIT.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.201.16]) by cygnus.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0E50A0 for ; Thu, 01 May 2008 21:31:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.200] (c-71-206-247-106.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.247.106]) (authenticated bits=0) by jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id m421VO9S016655 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 01 May 2008 21:31:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 21:31:25 -0400 From: DAVID FARBER Subject: [IP] Computer-assisted decisions sometimes a good thing To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <5A296C97-DE66-411A-97F6-1907A078EBED@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v919.2) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.919.2) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-13--543548719 X-Listbox-UUID: 7C3E4D42-17E7-11DD-946C-8CF356A607E7 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <20080502012603.5CE2B16333@mailbackend.panix.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Apple-Mail-13--543548719 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Begin forwarded message: > From: > Date: May 1, 2008 9:25:48 PM EDT > To: dave@farber.net > Subject: Computer-assisted decisions sometimes a good thing > > Dave > Please make me anonymous because I'm saying something at the end I > should keep my pride out of. If I've written too often, consider > this offlist. > > A friend of mine a number of years ago received a security > clearance that would probably have been rejected by most automated > systems. This was when being gay was a major issue on clearances, > and she was publicly gay. She also had actively picketed military > institutions a few years before. On top of that, she had friends who > were in strong and sometimes active opposition to U.S. government > policies, which would probably set off warning flags. I don't know > all the details, but I believe her life had included some things off > the profile. > > On the other hand, she was a very solid, smart, mature and > dependable person, qualities harder to reduce to a system. Some > human being took the time to review things carefully, and let her > through. Some of that may have been that the policy on gays was > being questioned, but I'd guess careful judgment made the difference. > > So I'm writing to urge that anyone writing the software on this > think carefully about not excluding people on automatic criteria. As > much as possible, think of criteria that a human would use to > override some of the "automatic" choices. It's faster to write > software like this with fewer but more arbitrary rules. It's > probably both more humane and effective if you take the time to > define more special cases. > > I got called in years ago to work on a system for a national > employment agency and discovered how arbitrary things could be. > About half the searches came in with a maximum age of 40-45 years. > The recruiters explained that was what the clients wanted, and > they'd just find a reason to reject anyone older for a position like > assistant menswear buyer. I should have walked on the spot, and did > not long after. I remember clearly one of their researchers pressing > me on this, saying that occasionally she'd spot someone older who > had a background so appropriate they proved the ideal candidate. A > human may catch things like that; an ordinary AI/expert system > wouldn't, but perhaps a more carefully done program can approach > that level. > > Incidentally, occasional experiences like that have convinced me > that prejudice is not gone. Soon after, the controller of the > company rejected the department's choice for a job and said > explicitly, "We don't hire black people here. We had a problem." On > that, I went to the Chairman of the company, the policy was > reversed, but I was out. Fortunately, I was consulting in a field I > knew I'd soon have other gigs, and didn't have a family. That makes > it easier. > > I've been in many mixed race situations since then, and comments > that overt I've rarely heard even among people of the same group. I > think things have gotten better since the 70's and 80's. I'd like to > think no one objected when Bill Kennard, a black man, was chosen to > head the FCC and he later appointed the Jewish Dave Farber to a > senior post. But social science research and my occasional personal > experience that think foolish those who think the problem is behind > us. I recently heard something despicable said about Jews by someone > who didn't know I was Jewish. > > > > > ------------------------------------------- --Apple-Mail-13--543548719 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Begin forwarded messa= ge:

=
From: 
Date: May 1, 2008 9:= 25:48 PM EDT
Subject: Computer-assi= sted decisions sometimes a good thing

Dave
Please make me= anonymous because I'm saying something at the end I should keep my pride o= ut of. If I've written too often, consider this offlist.
 
&= nbsp;  A friend of mine a number of years ago received a security clea= rance that would probably have been rejected by most automated systems. Thi= s was when being gay was a major issue on clearances, and she was publicly = gay. She also had actively picketed military institutions a few years befor= e. On top of that, she had friends who were in strong and sometimes active = opposition to U.S. government policies, which would probably set off warnin= g flags. I don't know all the details, but I believe her life had included = some things off the profile.

     On the other= hand, she was a very solid, smart, mature and dependable person, qualities= harder to reduce to a system. Some human being took the time to review thi= ngs carefully, and let her through. Some of that may have been that the pol= icy on gays was being questioned, but I'd guess careful judgment made the d= ifference.

     So I'm writing to urge that an= yone writing the software on this think carefully about not excluding peopl= e on automatic criteria. As much as possible, think of criteria that a huma= n would use to override some of the "automatic" choices.  It's faster = to write software like this with fewer but more arbitrary rules. It's proba= bly both more humane and effective if you take the time to define more spec= ial cases. 

     I got called in years ag= o to work on a system for a national employment agency and discovered how a= rbitrary things could be. About half the searches came in with a maximum ag= e of 40-45 years. The recruiters explained that was what the clients wanted= , and they'd just find a reason to reject anyone older for a position like = assistant menswear buyer. I should have walked on the spot, and did not lon= g after. I remember clearly one of their researchers pressing me on this, s= aying that occasionally she'd spot someone older who had a background so ap= propriate they proved the ideal candidate. A human may catch things like th= at; an ordinary AI/expert system wouldn't, but perhaps a more carefully don= e program can approach that level.

    Incidentally= , occasional experiences like that have convinced me that prejudice is not = gone. Soon after, the controller of the company rejected the department's c= hoice for a job and said explicitly, "We don't hire black people here. We h= ad a problem."  On that, I went to the Chairman of the company, the po= licy was reversed, but I was out. Fortunately, I was consulting in a field = I knew I'd soon have other gigs, and didn't have a family. That makes it ea= sier.

    I've been in many mixed race situations si= nce then, and comments that overt I've rarely heard even among people of th= e same group. I think things have gotten better since the 70's and 80's. I'= d like to think no one objected when Bill Kennard, a black man, was chosen = to head the FCC and he later appointed the Jewish Dave Farber to a senior p= ost. But social science research and my occasional personal experience that= think foolish those who think the problem is behind us. I recently heard s= omething despicable said about Jews by someone who didn't know I was Jewish= .




 

Archives
= --Apple-Mail-13--543548719--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri May 2 21:41:27 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0900B01RCJUE@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 02 May 2008 21:41:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0900B01RC3TR@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 02 May 2008 21:40:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from thorn.listbox.com (thorn.listbox.com [208.210.124.75]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K0800DIXJTWJB@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 02 May 2008 06:01:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31BFABAB9 for ; Fri, 02 May 2008 06:02:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by apex.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 960DF69 for ; Fri, 02 May 2008 05:21:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXHUB016-4.exch016.msoutlookonline.net (exhub016-4.exch016.msoutlookonline.net [207.5.72.225]) by apex.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAA7F65 for ; Fri, 02 May 2008 05:21:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.173]) by EXHUB016-4.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.225]) with mapi; Fri, 02 May 2008 02:21:08 -0700 Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 02:20:03 -0700 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: Computer-assisted decisions sometimes a good thing To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0E6E608443A703489B63435E45E642712C5E612C51@EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: approve:hamming Re: Computer-assisted decisions sometimes a good thing Thread-Index: AQHIrDXYverS5Rj8Vk+lwo62fG/HlQ== Accept-Language: en-US acceptlanguage: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Listbox-UUID: 27902F80-1829-11DD-945E-58CB189CFB26 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 ________________________________________ From: Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 11:47 PM To: David Farber Subject: anonymous please Re: [IP] Computer-assisted decisions sometimes a = good thing Dave: Please make this anonymous as well. I prefer that it not be known that I h= ave a clearance and work with people with clearances. The proposed system sounds very much like the current system to me. When I= went for my clearance, there was something on my application which was out= of the standard profile, so I was not granted an interim clearance. The a= pplication then went into the pile for an investigator to work. Eventually= that happened, they acquired the additional information they needed, and t= he final clearance was granted. (Many of my foreign born colleagues have t= he same experience.) It sounds like they propose to automate that initial = search and decision. Of course, this presumes that when they say that the = system will deny some clearances those are the obviously out-of-scope ones = where the applicant is not a US citizen, etc. I would also presume that they will retain the appeal process. I have had = colleagues who have had to go before an appeal board after being denied and= who were able to clear up issues that had not been resolved during the inv= estigation. All-in-all, if this frees up investigators and speeds the process of gettin= g clearances through, it sounds like an improvement. -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Sun May 4 07:49:07 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0C00F01E5PTO@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Sun, 04 May 2008 07:49:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0C00F01E5JT5@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Sun, 04 May 2008 07:48:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from thorn.listbox.com (thorn.listbox.com [208.210.124.75]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K0A00GG5VKT02@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Sat, 03 May 2008 12:10:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9162FC571 for ; Sat, 03 May 2008 12:11:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cygnus.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F7329D for ; Sat, 03 May 2008 11:27:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXHUB016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net (exhub016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net [207.5.72.226]) by cygnus.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E80128D for ; Sat, 03 May 2008 11:27:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.173]) by EXHUB016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.226]) with mapi; Sat, 03 May 2008 08:27:22 -0700 Date: Sat, 03 May 2008 08:27:09 -0700 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Discovery Channel Seeking Austin (non-Internet) Science or Technology To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0E6E608443A703489B63435E45E642712C5E612C5A@EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: approve:hamming Discovery Channel Seeking Austin (non-Internet) Science or Technology Thread-Index: AQHIrTIt5B5yyC/8X0Cb5/p4tgMcEA== Accept-Language: en-US acceptlanguage: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Listbox-UUID: 6E5D6F5C-1925-11DD-9789-18CE56A607E7 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 ________________________________________ From: Esther Dyson [edyson@edventure.com] Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 11:17 AM To: David Farber Subject: Fwd: Discovery Channel Seeking Austin (non-Internet) Science or Te= chnology Dave - for IP if you think it appropriate. Esther >From: Patti Hill - CameronWeeks >The producer of Discovery Channel Canada will be visiting Austin >this month to film segments on new technologies for the Daily >Planet, television's first daily science show. The Daily Planet >utilizes a "science magazine" programming format and broadcasts >complex science and technology-related programming. >Discovery Channel Canada is scouting for new, sexy, cool science or >technology that's in the works -- not products already available - >and (sorry folks) not internet-based. > >If you'd like to be considered, send a short overview of the >technology along with your company URL to me at the email address below. > >Deadline: Thursday, May 8, 2008 - 5:00 PM > > >Patti D. Hill >CameronWeeks Public Relations > >email: phill@cameronweeks.com >phone: 512-218-0401 >web: >http://www.cameronweeks.com > > >---------- Esther Dyson Always make new mistakes! -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Sun May 4 07:49:09 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0C00F01E5PTO@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Sun, 04 May 2008 07:49:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0C00F01E5JT5@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Sun, 04 May 2008 07:48:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cygnus.listbox.com (cygnus.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K0B007C11ZGFY@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Sat, 03 May 2008 14:28:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cygnus.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43B5D96 for ; Sat, 03 May 2008 14:29:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by apex.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 089A969 for ; Sat, 03 May 2008 14:11:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXHUB016-1.exch016.msoutlookonline.net (exhub016-1.exch016.msoutlookonline.net [207.5.72.163]) by apex.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59FF668 for ; Sat, 03 May 2008 14:11:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.173]) by EXHUB016-1.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.163]) with mapi; Sat, 03 May 2008 11:10:38 -0700 Date: Sat, 03 May 2008 11:10:05 -0700 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] demed export -- Security clearances, lie detectors, etc. To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0E6E608443A703489B63435E45E642712C5E612C5B@EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: demed export -- Security clearances, lie detectors, etc. Thread-Index: AQHIrUj7qT37nt4nV0WlVJscverzyA== Accept-Language: en-US acceptlanguage: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Listbox-UUID: 4B666C6C-193C-11DD-8E05-A425199CFB26 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 ________________________________________ From: Eugene H. Spafford [spaf@mac.com] Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 10:56 PM To: ip Cc: David Farber Subject: Re: [IP] Re: Security clearances, lie detectors, etc. As regards David Reed's comments... Deemed export is not the same as a security clearance. Many countries have historically had some problems of the sort where nationals of country A who come to the US to study sensitive topics. Thereafter, they returned to country A with knowledge of technology that provides country A with a military or economic advantage that they might not have been able to develop on their own. We can't prosecute them for espionage, because the material they learned was not classified -- merely advanced, with strong dual uses. We can't charge them with theft of trade secrets (even if they were) because country A won't extradite them on those charges. So, the countries ("B") have developed "deemed export" rules, and groups of countries have treaty and other joint rules about sharing and not sharing various technologies. Many "western" countries are signatory to the "Wassenaar Arrangement" for instance. So, we have also had cases where citizens from country A go to country C, get permanent residency or citizenship, then go to country B to learn the advantages. They then return to country A with the knowledge. Because the rules of deemed export only apply to current citizenship status in many countries (such as the U.S.), if country C is "friendly" the subterfuge might not be caught. Now, there are many issues associated with this, such as which countries to be concerned with, and what technologies are involved. But, there is a real problem here, with real cases, and the espionage goals of various countries is a matter of public record. The "country of birth" restrictions sweep up people who are political refugees, who were born (and left) a country that later had a regime change that resulted in them falling from favor as a trusted country, and who are legitimate immigrants. Unfortunately, no simple solutions. (And rather than repeat earlier material, I had written about use of lie detectors for security clearances in one of my old blog posts: .) -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Sun May 4 07:49:10 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0C00F01E5PTO@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Sun, 04 May 2008 07:49:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0C00F01E5JT5@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Sun, 04 May 2008 07:48:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from chiclet.listbox.com (chiclet.pobox.com [208.210.124.77]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K0B0061F29SJZ@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Sat, 03 May 2008 14:34:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chiclet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2E1D1C9D52 for ; Sat, 03 May 2008 14:36:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by apex.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0B1069 for ; Sat, 03 May 2008 14:17:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXHUB016-1.exch016.msoutlookonline.net (exhub016-1.exch016.msoutlookonline.net [207.5.72.163]) by apex.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFE7968 for ; Sat, 03 May 2008 14:17:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.173]) by EXHUB016-1.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.163]) with mapi; Sat, 03 May 2008 11:17:05 -0700 Date: Sat, 03 May 2008 11:16:51 -0700 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] : a little ironic humor: Criminals try to 'copyright' malware To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0E6E608443A703489B63435E45E642712C5E612C5C@EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: : a little ironic humor: Criminals try to 'copyright' malware Thread-Index: AQHIrUni0kfJHvTysUGPgz3WjN8bEQ== Accept-Language: en-US acceptlanguage: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Listbox-UUID: 31043722-193D-11DD-A581-992C199CFB26 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 ________________________________________ From: bobr@bobrosenberg.phoenix.az.us [bobr@bobrosenberg.phoenix.az.us] Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2008 11:36 AM To: David Farber Subject: a little ironic humor: Criminals try to 'copyright' malware Dave Yuh just gotta laugh! Cheers, Bob -- Bob Rosenberg P.O. Box 33023 Phoenix, AZ 85067-3023 Mobile: 602-206-2856 LandLine: 602-274-3012 bob@bobrosenberg.phoenix.az.us ************** "Once a government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice of opposition, it has only one way to go, and that is down the path of increas= ingly repressive measures, until it becomes a source of terror to all its citizen= s and creates a country where everyone lives in fear." -- President Harry S. Truman, message to Congress, August 8, 1950 ************** Criminals try to 'copyright' malware Virus writers selling software with a detailed licensing agreement By Jordan Robertson The Associated Press updated 3:58 p.m. MT, Wed., April. 30, 2008 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24394270/ SAN FRANCISCO - Even criminal hackers want to protect their intellectual pr= operty, and they've come up with a method akin to copyrighting =97 with an appropri= ate dash of Internet thuggery thrown in. Professional virus writers are now selling a suite of software on the Inter= net with an unusual attachment: a detailed licensing agreement that promises penalti= es for redistributing the malicious code without permission. "I just kind of chuckled =97 it's kind of humorous," said Zulfikar Ramzan, = senior principal security researcher with Symantec Corp. Symantec researchers noticed a Russian-language example floating around the= Internet and wrote about it on the company's official blog this week. They said it's= the only example they've seen. The software is used to infect computers and control them remotely. The zom= bie machines can be used to pump out spam, launch more attacks or steal personal information from their owners. Networks of zombie machines =97 known as "bot nets" =97 can be extremely lu= crative, sometimes bringing millions of dollars in profit for their authors and their distributors. To maximize that profit, the software analyzed by Symantec's researchers contained the following rules: # The customer can't resell the product, examine its underlying coding, use= it to control other bot nets or submit it to antivirus companies and agrees to pa= y the seller a fee for product updates. # The threat: Violate the terms, and we'll report you ourselves to the anti= virus companies by giving them information about how to dismantle your bot networ= k or prevent it from growing bigger. While not legally binding, the terms amount to a novel way to protect ill-g= otten profits =97 except that by ratting out their customers, malware authors ris= k drawing attention to their own enterprises and giving antivirus makers clues on com= batting them. "We know they can't actually enforce it, and they probably wouldn't try," R= amzan said. "What's funny is they put more effort into their EULA (end-user licen= se agreement) than traditional software companies might." The ultimate rub? Apparently the threat was not only hollow but unheeded. S= ymantec said the program that's accompanied by the novel rules is being traded free= ly online =97 and so far its authors haven't called Symantec to make good on their th= reat. Copyright 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may= not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24394270/ MSN Privacy . Legal =A9 2008 MSNBC.com -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Sun May 4 07:49:11 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0C00F01E5PTO@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Sun, 04 May 2008 07:49:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0C00F01E5JT5@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Sun, 04 May 2008 07:48:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from thorn.listbox.com (thorn.listbox.com [208.210.124.75]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K0B00I0W39M56@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Sat, 03 May 2008 14:56:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD96FC40E for ; Sat, 03 May 2008 14:57:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54D9BC72C for ; Sat, 03 May 2008 14:18:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXHUB016-4.exch016.msoutlookonline.net (exhub016-4.exch016.msoutlookonline.net [207.5.72.225]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DFCAC606 for ; Sat, 03 May 2008 14:18:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.173]) by EXHUB016-4.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.225]) with mapi; Sat, 03 May 2008 11:17:59 -0700 Date: Sat, 03 May 2008 11:17:41 -0700 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] DARPA Sponsors a Hunt For Malware In Microchips To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0E6E608443A703489B63435E45E642712C5E612C5D@EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: approve:hamming DARPA Sponsors a Hunt For Malware In Microchips Thread-Index: AQHIrUoCIEYsRpUMvkyluDFHnW4G1A== Accept-Language: en-US acceptlanguage: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Listbox-UUID: 534CB548-193D-11DD-8671-BB4766D9244B X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 ________________________________________ From: ' =3DJeffH ' [Jeff.Hodges@KingsMountain.com] Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 9:37 PM To: David Farber Subject: fyi: DARPA Sponsors a Hunt For Malware In Microchips DARPA Sponsors a Hunt For Malware In Microchips slashdot.org/palm/18/08/05/01/1233244_1.shtml DARPA Sponsors a Hunt For Malware In Microchips from the double-barreled-microscope-loaded-for-vermin dept. posted by timot= hy on 2008-05-01 13:23:00 Phurge links to an IEEE Spectrum story on an interesting DARPA project with some scary implications about just what it is we don't know about what chips are doing under the surface. It's a difficult problem to find invasive or otherwise malicious capabilities built into a CPU; this project's goal is to see whether vendors can find such hardware-level spyware in chips http://spectrum.ieee.org/may08/6171 like those used in military hardware. Phurge excerpts: "Recognizing this enormous vulnerability, the DOD recently launched its most ambitious program yet to verify the integrity of the electronics that will underpin future additions to its arsenal. ... In January, the Trust program started its prequalifying rounds by sending to three contractors four identical versions of a chip that contained unspecified malicious circuitry. The teams have un= til the end of this month to ferret out as many of the devious insertions as th= ey can." --- end -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Sun May 4 07:49:13 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0C00F01E5PTO@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Sun, 04 May 2008 07:49:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K0C00F01E5JT5@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Sun, 04 May 2008 07:48:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from thorn.listbox.com (thorn.listbox.com [208.210.124.75]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K0B00N1EHBH2H@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Sat, 03 May 2008 19:59:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thorn.listbox.