From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Wed Jul 2 10:22:18 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3D00801UL2V1@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 10:22:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3D00801UKVUF@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Wed, 02 Jul 2008 10:22:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from thorn.listbox.com (thorn.listbox.com [208.210.124.75]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K3C00KTYK88TU@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 01 Jul 2008 17:40:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D67521DB5A for ; Tue, 01 Jul 2008 17:44:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6AF11DA17 for ; Tue, 01 Jul 2008 17:11:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXHUB016-2.exch016.msoutlookonline.net (exhub016-2.exch016.msoutlookonline.net [207.5.72.164]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 055971DAE3 for ; Tue, 01 Jul 2008 17:10:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.173]) by EXHUB016-2.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.164]) with mapi; Tue, 01 Jul 2008 14:10:25 -0700 Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 14:09:51 -0700 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] BitTorrent now being used for piracy of textbooks To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0E6E608443A703489B63435E45E64271378B71DB3F@EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: approve:shit BitTorrent now being used for piracy of textbooks Thread-Index: AQHI277gSSy0gqYU3EWdwGJ3JKMvIw== Accept-Language: en-US acceptlanguage: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Listbox-UUID: 3B84DFAA-47B2-11DD-87F2-374EA68752FD X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 ________________________________________ From: Brett Glass [brett@lariat.net] Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 4:24 PM To: Ip ip; David Farber Subject: BitTorrent now being used for piracy of textbooks Textbook Piracy Grows Online, Prompting a Counterattack From Publishers By JEFFREY R. YOUNG College students are increasingly downloading illegal copies of textbooks online, employing the same file-trading technologies used to steal music and movies. Feeling threatened, book publishers are stepping up efforts to stop the online piracy. One Web site, called Textbook Torrents, promises more than 5,000 textbooks for download in PDF format, complete with the original textbook layout and full-color illustrations. Users must simply set up a free account and download a free software program that uses a popular peer-to-peer system called BitTorrent. Other textbook-download sites are even easier to use, offering digital books at the click of a mouse. "There are very few scanned textbooks in circulation, and that's what we're here to change," says a welcome message on the Textbook Torrents site. "Chances are you have some textbooks sitting around, so pick up a scanner and start scanning it!" In response to such sites, the Association of American Publishers hired an outside law firm this summer to scour the Web for illegally offered textbooks. Already the firm has identified thousands of instances of book piracy and has sent legal notices to Web sites hosting the files demanding that they be removed. The group is looking for all types of books, though trade books and textbooks, which generally have high price tags, are the most frequent books offered on peer-to-peer sites. "In any given two-week period we found from 60,000 files all the way up to 250,000 files," said Edward McCoyd, director of digital policy for the publishing association. Mr. McCoyd, who leads the Online Piracy Working Group, said the group has been performing periodic scans for piracy since 2001, and that it has seen a gradual increase in the number of titles available. "It is troubling that there is a culture of infringement out there," said Mr. McCoyd. But as more publishers offer books online and readers become more familiar with digital formats, he added, more people are likely to illegally download them. No Action Against Students So far the publishing group has not sought to take legal action against individual student downloaders, as the Recording Industry Association of America has done in its campaign to stamp out the illegal trading of music at colleges. The book-publishing group has not sought to shut down entire Web sites that offer downloads either, said Mr. McCoyd. Instead, officials are doing research on the extent of the problem and asking Web-site owners to remove individual files. "We've just tried to keep sweeping away these infringements as they continue to come online," he said. Albert N. Greco. a professor of marketing at Fordham University's Graduate School of Business who studies academic publishing, said that publishers expressed even greater concerns in private about piracy than they did in their public comments. "We knew that this would happen, and it has happened very rapidly," he said. "It's not going to go away=ADit's only going to get worse." More at http://chronicle.com/free/2008/07/3623n.htm -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Wed Jul 2 10:22:20 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3D00801UL2V1@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 10:22:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3D00801UKVUF@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Wed, 02 Jul 2008 10:22:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from thorn.listbox.com (thorn.listbox.com [208.210.124.75]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K3C00KVEKKE6R@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 01 Jul 2008 17:48:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 144D31D8E1 for ; Tue, 01 Jul 2008 17:51:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cygnus.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13F24A6 for ; Tue, 01 Jul 2008 17:17:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (JACKFRUIT.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.201.16]) by cygnus.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEF6F98 for ; Tue, 01 Jul 2008 17:17:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.198] (c-71-206-247-106.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.247.106]) (authenticated bits=0) by jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id m61LHDLu003054 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 01 Jul 2008 17:17:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 17:17:13 -0400 From: DAVID FARBER Subject: [IP] Steve Jobs and the Great 3G iPhone Scam - Opinions by ExtremeTech To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v926) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.926) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-8-416632072 X-Listbox-UUID: 19617D7E-47B3-11DD-91B0-051E57A607E7 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Apple-Mail-8-416632072 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit An interesting if emotionally loaded article. djf http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,2321881,00.asp ------------------------------------------- --Apple-Mail-8-416632072 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
An interesting if emotionally loaded article. djf

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,2321881,00.asp

--Apple-Mail-8-416632072--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Wed Jul 2 10:22:22 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3D00801UL2V1@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 10:22:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3D00801UKVUF@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Wed, 02 Jul 2008 10:22:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cygnus.listbox.com (cygnus.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K3C0060UNR2TK@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 01 Jul 2008 18:57:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cygnus.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 717F0B9 for ; Tue, 01 Jul 2008 19:00:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 166881DAE4 for ; Tue, 01 Jul 2008 18:43:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (JACKFRUIT.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.201.16]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F4811DF12 for ; Tue, 01 Jul 2008 18:43:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.198] (c-71-206-247-106.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.247.106]) (authenticated bits=0) by jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id m61Mguhg004678 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 01 Jul 2008 18:42:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 18:42:55 -0400 From: DAVID FARBER Subject: [IP] Bloggers take aim at Google - International Herald Tribune To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <5FF6BB1A-3C17-4891-BEBA-09DF1A18FD21@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v926) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.926) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-2-421773874 X-Listbox-UUID: 1E9E3C62-47BF-11DD-ACA6-6187A68752FD X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Apple-Mail-2-421773874 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/07/01/business/google.php SAN FRANCISCO: Was Google's network of online services manipulated to silence critics of Barack Obama? That was the question buzzing on a corner of the blogosphere over the past few days, after several anti- Obama bloggers were unable to update their sites, which are hosted on Google's Blogger service. The bloggers, most of them supporters of Senator Hillary Clinton and all of whom are critical of Obama, the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, received a notice from Google last week saying that their sites had been identified as potential spam blogs. "You will not be able to publish posts to your blog until we review your site and confirm that it is not a spam blog," the Google e-mail read. ... ------------------------------------------- --Apple-Mail-2-421773874 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/07/01= /business/google.php


SAN FRANCISCO: Was Google's network of online servi= ces manipulated to silence critics of Barack Obama? That was the question b= uzzing on a corner of the blogosphere over the past few days, after several= anti-Obama bloggers were unable to update their sites, which are hosted on= Google's Blogger service.

The bloggers, most of them supporters= of Senator Hillary Clinton and all of whom are critical of Obama, the pres= umptive Democratic presidential nominee, received a notice from Google last= week saying that their sites had been identified as potential spam bl= ogs.

"You will not be able to publish posts to your blog until we rev= iew your site and confirm that it is not a spam blog," the Google e-mail&nb= sp;read.


...

= --Apple-Mail-2-421773874--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Wed Jul 2 10:22:23 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3D00801UL2V1@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 10:22:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3D00801UKVUF@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Wed, 02 Jul 2008 10:22:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cygnus.listbox.com (cygnus.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K3D0067VM1KCB@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 07:17:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cygnus.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08ED99C for ; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 07:20:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A4A7363 for ; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 07:04:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXHUB016-1.exch016.msoutlookonline.net (exhub016-1.exch016.msoutlookonline.net [207.5.72.163]) by a-lb-mx-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF49C360 for ; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 07:04:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.173]) by EXHUB016-1.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.163]) with mapi; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 04:04:38 -0700 Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 04:04:19 -0700 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: Bloggers take aim at Google - International Herald Tribune To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0E6E608443A703489B63435E45E64271378B71DB41@EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: approve:shit Re: Bloggers take aim at Google - International Herald Tribune Thread-Index: AQHI3DNp4YKljUPwykurpiXJCD7duA== Accept-Language: en-US acceptlanguage: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Listbox-UUID: AB07EC5E-4826-11DD-910D-317B6AE672F4 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 ________________________________________ From: Peter Moody [peter.moody@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 11:47 PM To: David Farber Subject: Re: [IP] Bloggers take aim at Google - International Herald Tribune I'd like to point out the the blogger spam tools identified the official googleblog (googlleblog.blogspot.com) as a spam blog a couple of years ago. http://blog.searchenginewatch.com/blog/060328-011003 so that a number of political blogs would be marked as spam is not surprising in the least. full disclosure - I work for google, but I have no special insider knowledge of blogger or this particular incident (or the previous one for that matter). Cheers, -pm On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 3:42 PM, DAVID FARBER wrote: > > http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/07/01/business/google.php > > SAN FRANCISCO: Was Google's network of online services manipulated to > silence critics of Barack Obama? That was the question buzzing on a corner > of the blogosphere over the past few days, after several anti-Obama blogg= ers > were unable to update their sites, which are hosted on Google's > Blogger service. > > The bloggers, most of them supporters of Senator Hillary Clinton and all = of > whom are critical of Obama, the presumptive Democratic presidential nomin= ee, > received a notice from Google last week saying that their sites had been > identified as potential spam blogs. > > "You will not be able to publish posts to your blog until we review your > site and confirm that it is not a spam blog," the Google e-mail read. > > ... > > ________________________________ > Archives -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Wed Jul 2 23:01:32 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3E00F01TQH80@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 23:01:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3E00F01TQC6A@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Wed, 02 Jul 2008 23:01:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from thorn.listbox.com (thorn.listbox.com [208.210.124.75]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K3D00GUVYG8A0@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 11:45:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 973A71DAFD for ; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 11:49:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cygnus.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B6FB95 for ; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 11:28:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXHUB016-2.exch016.msoutlookonline.net (exhub016-2.exch016.msoutlookonline.net [207.5.72.164]) by cygnus.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70E6BA5 for ; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 11:28:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.173]) by EXHUB016-2.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.164]) with mapi; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 08:28:14 -0700 Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 08:26:49 -0700 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] the net gives and takes To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0E6E608443A703489B63435E45E64271378B71DB47@EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: the net gives and takes Thread-Index: AQHI3Fg8AZ/QcEOh50Ci0flbpkdmDQ== Accept-Language: en-US acceptlanguage: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Listbox-UUID: 7F88268C-484B-11DD-903A-991C57A607E7 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 ________________________________________ F U.S. / POLITICS | July 2, 2008 Obama Voters Protest His Switch on Telecom Immunity By JAMES RISEN Thousands of Barack Obama=92s backers are using the online organizing tools= his campaign created to protest his recent support for expanding governmen= t surveillance powers. -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Wed Jul 2 23:01:33 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3E00F01TQH80@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 23:01:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3E00F01TQC6A@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Wed, 02 Jul 2008 23:01:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cygnus.listbox.com (cygnus.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K3E00EIQK8OD0@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 19:36:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cygnus.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5F619B for ; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 19:39:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3FEC1DCB9 for ; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 19:24:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXHUB016-1.exch016.msoutlookonline.net (exhub016-1.exch016.msoutlookonline.net [207.5.72.163]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0DE61DC92 for ; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 19:23:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.173]) by EXHUB016-1.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.163]) with mapi; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 16:23:34 -0700 Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 16:23:20 -0700 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: BitTorrent now being used for piracy of textbooks To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0E6E608443A703489B63435E45E64271378B71DB4A@EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: approve:shit Re: BitTorrent now being used for piracy of textbooks Thread-Index: AQHI3Jqk/6Ge35+a00G3cRF12tQVyQ== Accept-Language: en-US acceptlanguage: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Listbox-UUID: F439F004-488D-11DD-A380-1E5FA68752FD X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 ________________________________________ From: Kris Kirby [kris@catonic.us] Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 6:34 PM To: David Farber Subject: Re: [IP] BitTorrent now being used for piracy of textbooks On Tue, 1 Jul 2008, David Farber wrote: > "It is troubling that there is a culture of infringement out there," > said Mr. McCoyd. But as more publishers offer books online and readers > become more familiar with digital formats, he added, more people are > likely to illegally download them. Dave, I refuse to allow myself to harbor any sympathy for these corporations. As a university student myself, I have been subject to machinations of these tyrant companies for entirely too long. My first shock came a few years ago, whilst I was attempting to finance my next round of textbook purchases by selling my textbooks back to the bookstore. An employee of the bookstore opened the textbook, looked at the publication information, punched that information into the computer, and thus responded, "The publisher isn't buying this book because they have a new version coming out next semester." Stop and think about that sentance for a moment. It is certainly clear to myself that the entire process of new textbook sales as well as used textbook sales is managed by the publisher; the publisher has no incentive to lower prices because of the captive market it controls. The publisher can and will manipulate the market as it sees fit by making small, incremental changes to the text and printing a new textbook. The publisher then forces the students and universities to adopt the new version by pushing out bugfixes of previous bundled electronic learning software as new software. The administrators, eager to maintain secure computing enviroments as required by law, adopt the new software. The professors, equally as eager to use better software, push for upgrades as well. The students, eager to complete the degree to assure employability and reduce thier own frustration, follow like cows headed up the slaughterhouse chute. While I cannot condone the actions of the publishers who are obviously wallowing in currency as would a pig in a sty wallow in mud, I am left with a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach by the actions of those deepest effected by these dynamics of the textbook market. Where are the "Craigslist" and "eBay" of college textbooks? Where is the true innovation? It is true that one may purchase textbooks from eBay, either through Half.com or by a direct auction, one has no assurance of the condition of the book, nor that the book is indeed one produced for the United States market, or nor least of all the very fitness for purpose -- that the text is the correct version for the class listing. Where is there a clear trading house on the internet to allow students to connect with one another and find mutual satisfaction in a textbook transaction? This problem seems like a simple and rudimentary problem to solve -- where have our innovators gone? -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Wed Jul 2 23:01:34 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3E00F01TQH80@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 23:01:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3E00F01TQC6A@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Wed, 02 Jul 2008 23:01:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from thorn.listbox.com (thorn.listbox.com [208.210.124.75]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K3E001AHP2URT@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 21:20:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C917E1DCBF for ; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 21:24:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3C3EFCD for ; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 21:07:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXHUB016-4.exch016.msoutlookonline.net (exhub016-4.exch016.msoutlookonline.net [207.5.72.225]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B9DFFCC for ; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 21:07:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.173]) by EXHUB016-4.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.225]) with mapi; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 18:07:08 -0700 Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 18:06:41 -0700 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Vint Cerf ponders nationalizing the Internet To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0E6E608443A703489B63435E45E64271378B71DB4B@EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: Vint Cerf ponders nationalizing the Internet Thread-Index: AQHI3Kkbk10ZZqV9BkKrQksHHrMHVQ== Accept-Language: en-US acceptlanguage: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Listbox-UUID: 5F434E50-489C-11DD-A8E1-19C40FD06AB6 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 ________________________________________ From: Randall Webmail [rvh40@insightbb.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 8:54 PM To: dewayne@warpspeed.com; johnmacsgroup@yahoogroups.com; David Farber Subject: Vint Cerf ponders nationalizing the Internet Should the Internet be owned and maintained by the government, just like th= e highways? Vint Cerf, the =93father of the Internet=94 and Google=92s Inte= rnet evangelist, made this radical suggestion while he was sitting next to = me on a panel yesterday about national tech policy at the Personal Democrac= y Forum[http://i.ixnp.com/images/v3.36/t.gif]. Maybe he was inspir= ed by the presence of one of the other panelists, Claudio Prado, from Brazi= l=92s Ministry of Culture, who kept on talking about the importance of embr= acing Internet =93peeracy.=94 (Although, I should note that Mr. Cerf frowne= d upon that ill-advised coinage). But I think (or hope, rather) that he was= really trying to spark a debate about whether the Internet should be treat= ed more like the public resource that it is. His comment was in the context of a bigger discussion about the threat to N= et neutrality[http://i.ixnp.com/images/v3.36/t.gif] posed by the cable and phone companies, who are m= aking moves to control the amount and types of bits that can go through the= ir pipes. It was made almost in passing and the discussion quickly moved to= other topics. Maybe I didn=92t fully understand him (I wasn=92t taking notes), and he cer= tainly is better versed in the issues at hand than everyone else who was in= that auditorium combined. But nationalizing the Internet is bad idea. (I c= an=92t believe I even have to say this). It would set a horrible precedent,= would undermine confidence in the American economy, and would be difficult= to pull off. I tried to press Mr. Cerf on how exactly such a scheme would work without m= aking Internet service even less competitive than it is today. He offered t= hat the government could put the actual running of the service out to compe= titive bidding. It=92s still a bad idea. The Internet is essentially a series of agreements between owners of differ= ent networks about how data gets passed from one to the other. It is not cl= ear what property exactly would be nationalized. AT&T=92s backbone fiber ne= twork, for instance, sometimes carries Internet traffic, and sometimes carr= ies telephone voice traffic. So if the government were to confiscate all th= e data pipes, they would nationalize the phone industry as well. While nationalizing the Internet is the wrong solution, the problem it woul= d address is very real. The ground rules for how the Internet is used need = to be clarified. And that was the bigger point that Mr. Cerf was trying to = make. But the government does not need to own the underlying assets that ma= ke up the Internet in order to set up ground rules that American companies = need to abide by. That is what laws are for. I have some ideas on how the government can actually do something useful he= re. More on that in a future post. -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Thu Jul 3 08:29:24 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3F00B01K0VCC@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 08:29:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3F00B01K0RC7@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Thu, 03 Jul 2008 08:29:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from chiclet.listbox.com (chiclet.listbox.com [208.210.124.77]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K3F00EHMEVBLR@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 06:37:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chiclet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55B3F2212F3 for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 06:41:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA43D843 for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 06:20:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXHUB016-4.exch016.msoutlookonline.net (exhub016-4.exch016.msoutlookonline.net [207.5.72.225]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B145842 for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 06:20:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.173]) by EXHUB016-4.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.225]) with mapi; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 03:20:16 -0700 Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 03:20:01 -0700 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Why Helio Didn't Connect To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0E6E608443A703489B63435E45E64271378B71DB50@EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: Why Helio Didn't Connect Thread-Index: AQHI3PZhzaS1Nj4NGkW/PFcBeR6ZZw== Accept-Language: en-US acceptlanguage: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Listbox-UUID: A3F1BED6-48E9-11DD-A71E-2FB10FD06AB6 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 ________________________________________ From: Robert J. Berger [rberger@ibd.com] Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 1:40 AM To: Dewayne Hendricks; David Farber Subject: Why Helio Didn't Connect The "money" quote: "If you look at wireless as a whole, it's represented a net destruction of capital for venture capitalists," grumbles William Frezza, a general partner at the Boston venture capital firm Adams Capital Management. I suspect this is applicable to most wireless investments, even those beyond non-monopoly Cellular like Helios. I've now seen it personally at several in the Muni-WiFi realm and I think were going to eventually see it with wImAx. Infrastructure plays do not generate ROIs that Wall Street expects except for monopolies. - Rob ---------- Why Helio Didn't Connect The flashy cell-phone company is in a very tough business. By Michael Fitzgerald Thursday, July 03, 2008 http://www.technologyreview.com/Biztech/21036/?nlid=3D1187&a=3Df Helio, which aimed to use souped-up mobile devices and spiffy services to build a virtual mobile phone company, instead has been sold off for a fraction of its backers' investment. Helio thus becomes the latest reminder that the wireless industry remains a perilous place for startups. "If you look at wireless as a whole, it's represented a net destruction of capital for venture capitalists," grumbles William Frezza, a general partner at the Boston venture capital firm Adams Capital Management. Despite receiving some $710 million in capital, Helio was able to attract only about 170,000 customers, racking up significant losses in the process. The trouble was not a lack of innovation. Helio's May 2006 launch saw it put two twists on the market for virtual mobile phone companies: it offered high-end cell phones with unique services, like integration with MySpace and YouTube, and the ability to make micropayments via the phone. And where other virtual mobile providers (also called mobile virtual network operators, or MVNOs) went after underserved niches, Helio rented space on Sprint's cellular network and then used it to go after a mainstream cellular market: young people. Helio had big backers in Earthlink, a successful Internet service provider, and South Korea's SK Telecom, and it was headed by Sky Dayton, Earthlink's wunderkind founder. Helio entered a market filled with froth: less than a year earlier, Sean "Diddy" Combs gave a keynote to the 2005 Cellular Telephony Industry Association trade show and said, "I am an MVNO." One virtual phone company that has had success is Virgin Mobile USA, which bought Helio for perhaps $49 million--$39 million in stock and the assumption of as much as $10 million in debt. Helio itself is not dead: Virgin Mobile will continue to market its service. But observers say that the deal strikes a death blow to the idea that U.S. consumers will buy high-end mobile phones from someone other than a cellular carrier. "The chapter closes on this market, and it's turning the page," says Chetan Sharma, president of Chetan Sharma Consulting, based in Issaquah, WA. Sharma says that Helio would have needed a million customers to get to a break-even point. =96=96=96=96=96=96=96=96=96=96=96=96=96=96=96=96=96=96=96=96=96=96=96=96=96= =96=96=96=96=96 Robert J. Berger - Internet Bandwidth Development, LLC. 15550 Wildcat Ridge, Saratoga, CA 95070 Voice: 408-838-8896 eFax: +1-408-490-2868 http://www.ibd.com -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Thu Jul 3 08:29:25 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3F00B01K0VCC@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 08:29:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3F00B01K0RC7@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Thu, 03 Jul 2008 08:29:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cygnus.listbox.com (cygnus.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K3F00EI4EXCLR@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 06:39:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cygnus.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82C9296 for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 06:42:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BE221DDD8 for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 06:25:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXHUB016-2.exch016.msoutlookonline.net (exhub016-2.exch016.msoutlookonline.net [207.5.72.164]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D81B61DEEC for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 06:24:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.173]) by EXHUB016-2.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.164]) with mapi; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 03:24:22 -0700 Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 03:23:53 -0700 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: BitTorrent now being used for piracy of textbooks To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0E6E608443A703489B63435E45E64271378B71DB51@EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: Re: BitTorrent now being used for piracy of textbooks Thread-Index: AQHI3Pb0fC74tl0mtEmzK+lE8mcDyw== Accept-Language: en-US acceptlanguage: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Listbox-UUID: 4D7FA486-48EA-11DD-9589-BE66A68752FD X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 ________________________________________ From: Kenneth_Mayer@Dell.com [Kenneth_Mayer@Dell.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 10:26 PM To: David Farber Subject: RE: [IP] Re: BitTorrent now being used for piracy of textbooks I could not agree with Kris anymore! I recently started my first semester t= eaching as an adjunct and I am shocked at what a student has to pay for a t= extbook for networking. $165 bucks? Are you kidding me, that book is outdat= ed the day it is published. I have also been told I don't have a choice whe= ther to use a book outside of the schools jurisdiction, lest I upset partic= ular people. I feel bad for my students and I am still paying school loans = off that include textbooks. I have no sympathy for them either as both a fo= rmer student and now a teacher. If I would have had the choice to get them = off the web when I was in school, I may have considered it as well. Instea= d of embracing web by starting to use PDF's of textbooks or downloadable co= urses, they continue to screw students over semester after semester and the= n proceed to change the book for the semester. You know these books actuall= y rarely change when they have a new edition come out. How many times can = World War II actually change? (yes I am joking about the lst one). Ken -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Thu Jul 3 08:29:26 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3F00B01K0VCC@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 08:29:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3F00B01K0RC7@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Thu, 03 Jul 2008 08:29:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from thorn.listbox.com (thorn.listbox.com [208.210.124.75]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K3F00FOMF0QHW@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 06:41:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18CFD1DCB3 for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 06:44:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01F4F82A for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 06:18:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXHUB016-4.exch016.msoutlookonline.net (exhub016-4.exch016.msoutlookonline.net [207.5.72.225]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2A40811 for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 06:18:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.173]) by EXHUB016-4.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.225]) with mapi; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 03:18:19 -0700 Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 03:17:56 -0700 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Vint Cerf ponders nationalizing the Internet To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0E6E608443A703489B63435E45E64271378B71DB4F@EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: Vint Cerf ponders nationalizing the Internet Thread-Index: AQHI3PYY/+bP+XBZvUOhDJ47Un5EAA== Accept-Language: en-US acceptlanguage: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Listbox-UUID: 6A4E1602-48E9-11DD-9FB7-C1A80FD06AB6 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 ________________________________________ From: John F. McMullen [johnmac13@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 9:17 PM To: David Farber Subject: Re: Vint Cerf ponders nationalizing the Internet That would bring back the strict fundamentalists who gave us the "Communica= tions Decency Act" -- no thanks -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Thu Jul 3 08:29:27 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3F00B01K0VCC@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 08:29:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3F00B01K0RC7@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Thu, 03 Jul 2008 08:29:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cygnus.listbox.com (cygnus.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K3F00NCTGK3EF@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 07:14:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cygnus.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AA0293 for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 07:17:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by apex.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 234C065 for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 07:02:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXHUB016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net (exhub016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net [207.5.72.226]) by apex.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9B5463 for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 07:02:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.173]) by EXHUB016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.226]) with mapi; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 04:02:05 -0700 Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 04:01:29 -0700 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] DEBUNKING Vint Cerf ponders nationalizing the Internet To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0E6E608443A703489B63435E45E64271378B71DB53@EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: approve:shit DEBUNKING Vint Cerf ponders nationalizing the Internet Thread-Index: AQHI3Pw4RqorzdiZBk24+3Ek6yDeww== Accept-Language: en-US acceptlanguage: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Listbox-UUID: 876D6E8A-48EF-11DD-9C11-6A42199CFB26 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 ________________________________________ From: Seth Finkelstein [sethf@sethf.com] Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 6:46 AM To: David Farber; ip Cc: John F. McMullen Subject: DEBUNKING Vint Cerf ponders nationalizing the Internet Sigh. Here we go again :-( - wolf! Wolf! WOLF! ... The article is almost a parody of the rile-em-up technique: "Maybe I didn't fully understand him (I wasn't taking notes), and he certainly is better versed in the issues at hand than everyone else who was in that auditorium combined. But nationalizing the Internet is bad idea. ..." Maybe I didn't fully understand the writer, but making up inflammatory fiction to get attention is a bad idea (or maybe not, to a certain mindset, since it certainly worked). Here's what Vint Cerf later explained in his own words, which, agree or disagree, is not the silly spin given above: http://techliberation.com/2008/06/27/cerf-nationalize-the-internet/#comments Posted by: vint cerf - 06/28/2008 "My remarks, taken out of context and turned into a bumper sticker, don't produce very good dialog. What I was getting at is that the Internet is in some ways more like the road system than telephone or cable. These are essentially single purpose networks, each built for a particular application. Because there is not a great deal of consumer choice for these services, the usual effects of competition are weaker. I think the incentives now in place for broadband service provision have not produced significant facilities-based competition. An alternative that has been explored in the UK, for instance, is to mandate that wholesale broadband services must be provided, e.g., by British Telecom. this allows substantial competition above the IP layer for value-added services and substantial consumer choice for them. What I was speculating about in the Personal Democracy Forum was whether incentives could be provided that would render the Internet more like the public road system which is open to everyone. Manufacturers are free to invent and sell vehicles suitable for use on the road system. Builders are free to construct buildings, homes, offices, manufacturing plants that use the road system. But the road system itself is not owned by the private sector and its use is essentially open to all. The question is whether incentives can be found that would produce a similar effect for broadband Internet provision." -- Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer http://sethf.com Infothought blog - http://sethf.com/infothought/blog/ Interview: http://sethf.com/essays/major/greplaw-interview.php -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Thu Jul 3 15:19:10 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3G00J012ZTYX@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 15:19:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3G00J012ZOYN@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Thu, 03 Jul 2008 15:19:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cygnus.listbox.com (cygnus.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K3F00ECGNI8EA@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 09:44:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cygnus.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2381E95 for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 09:47:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDC0FCEE for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 09:32:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXHUB016-1.exch016.msoutlookonline.net (exhub016-1.exch016.msoutlookonline.net [207.5.72.163]) by a-lb-mx-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1936CE6 for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 09:32:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.173]) by EXHUB016-1.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.163]) with mapi; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 06:32:01 -0700 Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 06:31:51 -0700 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: BitTorrent now being used for piracy of textbooks To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0E6E608443A703489B63435E45E64271378B71DB55@EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: approve:shit Re: BitTorrent now being used for piracy of textbooks Thread-Index: AQHI3REs7RF0Yn5uv0K475LIh8q+9g== Accept-Language: en-US acceptlanguage: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Listbox-UUID: 6CCCAD74-4904-11DD-B60F-D5C16AE672F4 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 ________________________________________ From: Seth Goldhamer [seth@goldhamer.net] Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 9:15 AM To: David Farber Subject: RE: [IP] Re: BitTorrent now being used for piracy of textbooks The only people who can solve the problem are the professors who choose the books. If they collectively let it be known that they are taking price into account when they make their selections then maybe prices will become more reasonable. If a lower-priced book is deficient the professor can make up for it in classroom lectures. -----Original Message----- From: David Farber [mailto:dave@farber.net] Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 6:24 AM To: ip Subject: [IP] Re: BitTorrent now being used for piracy of textbooks ________________________________________ From: Kenneth_Mayer@Dell.com [Kenneth_Mayer@Dell.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 10:26 PM To: David Farber Subject: RE: [IP] Re: BitTorrent now being used for piracy of textbooks I could not agree with Kris anymore! I recently started my first semester teaching as an adjunct and I am shocked at what a student has to pay for a textbook for networking. $165 bucks? Are you kidding me, that book is outdated the day it is published. I have also been told I don't have a choice whether to use a book outside of the schools jurisdiction, lest I upset particular people. I feel bad for my students and I am still paying school loans off that include textbooks. I have no sympathy for them either as both a former student and now a teacher. If I would have had the choice to get them off the web when I was in school, I may have considered it as well. Instead of embracing web by starting to use PDF's of textbooks or downloadable courses, they continue to screw students over semester after semester and then proceed to change the book for the semester. You know these books actually rarely change when they have a new edition come out. How many times can World War II actually change? (yes I am joking about the lst one). Ken ------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Thu Jul 3 15:19:11 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3G00J012ZTYX@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 15:19:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3G00J012ZOYN@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Thu, 03 Jul 2008 15:19:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from chiclet.listbox.com (chiclet.listbox.com [208.210.124.77]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K3F00F4JTHM7J@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 11:53:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chiclet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB93C2213F7 for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 11:57:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED74E1DDE1 for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 11:47:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXHUB016-1.exch016.msoutlookonline.net (exhub016-1.exch016.msoutlookonline.net [207.5.72.163]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D36D1DEEE for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 11:46:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.173]) by EXHUB016-1.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.163]) with mapi; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 08:46:29 -0700 Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 08:45:53 -0700 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] on teaching students to become responsible citizens To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0E6E608443A703489B63435E45E64271378B71DB57@EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: approve:shit on teaching students to become responsible citizens Thread-Index: AQHI3SPzQvXia5Le1Ee+U99Ei3rXIA== Accept-Language: en-US acceptlanguage: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Listbox-UUID: 478F5C2E-4917-11DD-8E10-EB9FA68752FD X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 ________________________________________ From: Mary Shaw [mary.shaw@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 10:50 AM To: David Farber Subject: Re: [IP] Re: BitTorrent now being used for piracy of textbooks We in universities are supposed to be teaching students to become responsib= le citizens. It has been unsettling that they pirate their entertainment. = It's distressing for this to enter the classroom. How can we expect studen= ts to understand that plagiarism is wrong if they're pirating their textboo= ks? It's clear that exhortation isn't the solution. Even if the old models sti= ll worked, exhortation wouldn't be the solution. But electronic access has= broken the old models. We tell ourselves that the students buy books as an investment, because the= y'll keep the textbooks for reference for a long time. That model is broke= n, too. How many students actually keep the texts? How many texts in tech= nology areas are still the best sources of information 5 years later? Aren= 't our graduates getting fresh information off the web? So here's a challenge to the faculty of higher education: Can we create a = better model for developing and distributing course materials? Can we stand= apart from the entertainment industry to embrace and exploit technological= progress? I'm not saying that we should simply give away the materials -- The author = of a textbook certainly deserves reward, just like the writer and performer= of a song (unlike the music industry, textbook authors do actually receive= some return for their time -- I estimate my royalties have brought in abou= t 25 cents per hour for the time I spent developing the texts). So does th= e editor -- that unsung person who converts the textbook from a text to a p= roduct. But electronic distribution should be much more efficient for the p= rinting/wholesaling/retailing part of the textbook business, which probably= accounts for 60-70% of the price. We could also take another look at how the money flows. Student purchase of= a physical book under first-sale doctrine works for paper, but not for ele= ctrons. This is especially so if we abandon the myth that they'll keep all= the books. Mary Shaw On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 9:31 AM, David Farber > wrote: ________________________________________ From: Seth Goldhamer [seth@goldhamer.net] Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 9:15 AM To: David Farber Subject: RE: [IP] Re: BitTorrent now being used for piracy of textbooks The only people who can solve the problem are the professors who choose the books. If they collectively let it be known that they are taking price into account when they make their selections then maybe prices will become more reasonable. If a lower-priced book is deficient the professor can make up for it in classroom lectures. -----Original Message----- From: David Farber [mailto:dave@farber.net] Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 6:24 AM To: ip Subject: [IP] Re: BitTorrent now being used for piracy of textbooks ________________________________________ From: Kenneth_Mayer@Dell.com [Kenneth_Mayer@Dell.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 10:26 PM To: David Farber Subject: RE: [IP] Re: BitTorrent now being used for piracy of textbooks I could not agree with Kris anymore! I recently started my first semester teaching as an adjunct and I am shocked at what a student has to pay for a textbook for networking. $165 bucks? Are you kidding me, that book is outdated the day it is published. I have also been told I don't have a choice whether to use a book outside of the schools jurisdiction, lest I upset particular people. I feel bad for my students and I am still paying school loans off that include textbooks. I have no sympathy for them either as both a former student and now a teacher. If I would have had the choice to get them off the web when I was in school, I may have considered it as well. Instead of embracing web by starting to use PDF's of textbooks or downloadable courses, they continue to screw students over semester after semester and then proceed to change the book for the semester. You know these books actually rarely change when they have a new edition come out. How many times can World War II actually change? (yes I am joking about the lst one). Ken ------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Thu Jul 3 15:19:12 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3G00J012ZTYX@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 15:19:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3G00J012ZOYN@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Thu, 03 Jul 2008 15:19:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cygnus.listbox.com (cygnus.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K3F00F6NU26PA@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 12:06:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cygnus.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75F789F for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 12:09:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19D7F1DD97 for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 11:51:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXHUB016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net (exhub016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net [207.5.72.226]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D22401DD32 for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 11:50:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.173]) by EXHUB016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.226]) with mapi; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 08:50:33 -0700 Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 08:49:22 -0700 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: G Vint Cerf ponders nationalizing the Internet To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0E6E608443A703489B63435E45E64271378B71DB59@EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: approve:shit Re: G Vint Cerf ponders nationalizing the Internet Thread-Index: AQHI3SSFeBILsPe46k6RPGD+itt6Qw== Accept-Language: en-US acceptlanguage: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Listbox-UUID: D7EDF8D4-4917-11DD-913C-D9A2A68752FD X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 and many states are trying to privatize the super-highways -- like the nj t= urnpike etc djf ________________________________________ From: Dave Crocker [dcrocker@bbiw.net] Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 10:30 AM To: David Farber Cc: ip; Vint Cerf Subject: Re: [IP] DEBUNKING Vint Cerf ponders nationalizing the Internet David Farber wrote: > What I was speculating about in > the Personal Democracy Forum was whether incentives could be provided > that would render the Internet more like the public road system which > is open to everyone. Manufacturers are free to invent and sell > vehicles suitable for use on the road system. Builders are free to > construct buildings, homes, offices, manufacturing plants that use the > road system. But the road system itself is not owned by the private > sector and its use is essentially open to all. The question is whether > incentives can be found that would produce a similar effect for > broadband Internet provision." To the extent that we can find an equivalent, established service to model,= to apply to the Net, that would help things enormously. Finding a working mod= el to invoke can save debate about theory. The road system does seem appealing that way. But the real-world model is = a bit more complex than Vint suggests. Whether that retains its appropriateness = is not clear to me, but the differences are worth noting. They make the model= a bit more nuanced and, I think, a bit more interesting: 1. There are differential licensing fees for different types of vehicles. Semi-trailers do not pay the same as 4-wheelers. 2. There are differential rules of use for different vehicles. In Californi= a, semi-trailers are not allowed in the fast lanes of a freeway. In some cities around the world, there are restrictions on access based on who is driving,= in order to reduce private passenger-car use, whereas taxis are allowed. 3. There are private roads with restricted access; there are private roads = that charge tolls. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Thu Jul 3 15:19:13 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3G00J012ZTYX@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 15:19:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3G00J012ZOYN@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Thu, 03 Jul 2008 15:19:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from thorn.listbox.com (thorn.listbox.com [208.210.124.75]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K3F00FA8U9LPT@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 12:10:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E2331DD45 for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 12:14:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBDD81DD13 for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 11:49:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXHUB016-4.exch016.msoutlookonline.net (exhub016-4.exch016.msoutlookonline.net [207.5.72.225]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3787E1DD0A for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 11:49:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.173]) by EXHUB016-4.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.225]) with mapi; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 08:48:55 -0700 Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 08:48:01 -0700 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Un-DEBUNKING Vint Cerf ponders nationalizing the Internet [ or just who is the monopolist] To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0E6E608443A703489B63435E45E64271378B71DB58@EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: approve:shit Un-DEBUNKING Vint Cerf ponders nationalizing the Internet [ or just who is the monopolist] Thread-Index: AQHI3SRJpTulcyqY7E2HivYee7mE5Q== Accept-Language: en-US acceptlanguage: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Listbox-UUID: 9D52BC96-4917-11DD-8585-68A1A68752FD X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 ________________________________________ From: Richard Bennett [richard@bennett.com] Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 10:53 AM To: David Farber Subject: Un-DEBUNKING Vint Cerf ponders nationalizing the Internet The press report of Cerf's comment was substantially correct. Cerf argued for regulatory system where the government would set prices and conditions for broadband services. The arguments for such a system, going back to the 1996 Telecom Act., are pretty uniform and unconvincing. The claim that we don't have significant facilities-based competition falls flat when we examine the numbers. The Pew survey released yesterday shows DSL with 45% market share, cable with 39%, wireless with 12%, and fiber with 3% (reading off a chart, numbers may vary slightly.) Contrast this with market shares for Internet Search where Google and its partners (including Yahoo) have 85% market share, MS has 10% and the remaining 5% is all over the place. Which market is more competitive? Ironically, Google's recent press events in favor of various net neutrality schemes consistently beat the drum of monopoly, but if we need government action to protect Internet users from monopolies, we need to start with the real ones before we take on the imaginary ones. Of course, the argument is frequently made that search isn't a monopoly because the switching cost is nil, whereas changing from cable to DSL or FiOS will cost some serious change and major inconvenience. But who are you going to switch to? When the dominant player has 85% of the searches and over 90% of the revenue, it will become uneconomical for the second player to continue at some point, and then we'll see what a true monopoly looks like. There's an inherent conflict of interest between search and advertising, such that the search vendor has an incentive to manipulate search results to favor ad sales, and with only one player in the game, maximizing revenue will be the name of the game. So I don't lose sleep at night over the prospect of Telcos and Cablecos manipulating packets for the sake of revenue, and neither should anybody else. BTW, there are some interesting comments on the Tech Lib post Seth references, http://techliberation.com/2008/06/27/cerf-nationalize-the-internet/#comments Some were questions to Vint that weren't answered. RB David Farber wrote: > ________________________________________ > From: Seth Finkelstein [sethf@sethf.com] > Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 6:46 AM > To: David Farber; ip > Cc: John F. McMullen > Subject: DEBUNKING Vint Cerf ponders nationalizing the Internet > > Sigh. Here we go again :-( - wolf! Wolf! WOLF! ... > > The article is almost a parody of the rile-em-up technique: > > "Maybe I didn't fully understand him (I wasn't taking notes), and he > certainly is better versed in the issues at hand than everyone else > who was in that auditorium combined. But nationalizing the Internet is > bad idea. ..." > > Maybe I didn't fully understand the writer, but making up > inflammatory fiction to get attention is a bad idea (or maybe not, to > a certain mindset, since it certainly worked). Here's what Vint Cerf > later explained in his own words, which, agree or disagree, is not the > silly spin given above: > > http://techliberation.com/2008/06/27/cerf-nationalize-the-internet/#comme= nts > > Posted by: vint cerf - 06/28/2008 > > "My remarks, taken out of context and turned into a bumper sticker, > don't produce very good dialog. What I was getting at is that the > Internet is in some ways more like the road system than telephone or > cable. These are essentially single purpose networks, each built for a > particular application. Because there is not a great deal of consumer > choice for these services, the usual effects of competition are > weaker. I think the incentives now in place for broadband service > provision have not produced significant facilities-based > competition. An alternative that has been explored in the UK, for > instance, is to mandate that wholesale broadband services must be > provided, e.g., by British Telecom. this allows substantial > competition above the IP layer for value-added services and > substantial consumer choice for them. What I was speculating about in > the Personal Democracy Forum was whether incentives could be provided > that would render the Internet more like the public road system which > is open to everyone. Manufacturers are free to invent and sell > vehicles suitable for use on the road system. Builders are free to > construct buildings, homes, offices, manufacturing plants that use the > road system. But the road system itself is not owned by the private > sector and its use is essentially open to all. The question is whether > incentives can be found that would produce a similar effect for > broadband Internet provision." > > -- > Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer http://sethf.com > Infothought blog - http://sethf.com/infothought/blog/ > Interview: http://sethf.com/essays/major/greplaw-interview.php > > > > ------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Thu Jul 3 15:19:14 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3G00J012ZTYX@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 15:19:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3G00J012ZOYN@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Thu, 03 Jul 2008 15:19:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from chiclet.listbox.com (chiclet.listbox.com [208.210.124.77]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K3F00FB3UB2PT@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 12:11:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chiclet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07E10221581 for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 12:14:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cygnus.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39C3E97 for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 11:54:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXHUB016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net (exhub016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net [207.5.72.226]) by cygnus.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34A0E10F for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 11:54:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.173]) by EXHUB016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.226]) with mapi; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 08:54:19 -0700 Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 08:53:34 -0700 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Amazon and f textbooks To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0E6E608443A703489B63435E45E64271378B71DB5A@EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: Amazon and f textbooks Thread-Index: AQHI3SUNVFxiFBqZakay4NganDQ4QQ== Accept-Language: en-US acceptlanguage: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Listbox-UUID: 4DF2395A-4918-11DD-8864-B32C57A607E7 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 ________________________________________ From: ed.biebel@gmail.com [ed.biebel@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Ed Biebel [edw= ard@biebel.net] Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 9:54 AM To: David Farber Subject: Re: [IP] Re: BitTorrent now being used for piracy of textbooks I agree with Seth and I have seen some professors starting to change. My last professor informed the class that while the 4th edition was listed in the syllabus, the only changes in that edition were to material not relevant for the class. He told us that we could use the 2nd and 3rd editions as well (at a significantly reduced cost). In terms of the market, I sell all of my textbooks on amazon.com. I started this after receiving an offer to buy my $105 textbook for $4 through the traditional methods. This was extremely annoying because I take excellent care of my books and this text would undoubtedly have been sold by the campus bookstore for upwards of $60. I sold the textbook for $35 on amazon. While I didn't nearly recoup my cost or what I felt the book was worth, I did get fair market value. Mostly, I took some satisfaction in knowing another student would get a "like new" textbook for $70 less and avoid a gouging by the bookstores. Ed On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 9:31 AM, David Farber wrote: > > ________________________________________ > From: Seth Goldhamer [seth@goldhamer.net] > Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 9:15 AM > To: David Farber > Subject: RE: [IP] Re: BitTorrent now being used for piracy of textboo= ks > > The only people who can solve the problem are the professors who choose t= he > books. If they collectively let it be known that they are taking price in= to > account when they make their selections then maybe prices will become more > reasonable. If a lower-priced book is deficient the professor can make up > for it in classroom lectures. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Farber [mailto:dave@farber.net] > Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 6:24 AM > To: ip > Subject: [IP] Re: BitTorrent now being used for piracy of textbooks > > > ________________________________________ > From: Kenneth_Mayer@Dell.com [Kenneth_Mayer@Dell.com] > Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 10:26 PM > To: David Farber > Subject: RE: [IP] Re: BitTorrent now being used for piracy of textbooks > > I could not agree with Kris anymore! I recently started my first semester > teaching as an adjunct and I am shocked at what a student has to pay for a > textbook for networking. $165 bucks? Are you kidding me, that book is > outdated the day it is published. I have also been told I don't have a > choice whether to use a book outside of the schools jurisdiction, lest I > upset particular people. I feel bad for my students and I am still paying > school loans off that include textbooks. I have no sympathy for them eith= er > as both a former student and now a teacher. If I would have had the choice > to get them off the web when I was in school, I may have considered it as > well. Instead of embracing web by starting to use PDF's of textbooks or > downloadable courses, they continue to screw students over semester after > semester and then proceed to change the book for the semester. You know > these books actually rarely change when they have a new edition come out. > How many times can World War II actually change? (yes I am joking about t= he > lst one). > > Ken > > > > ------------------------------------------- > > > > > ------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Thu Jul 3 15:19:15 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3G00J012ZTYX@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 15:19:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3G00J012ZOYN@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Thu, 03 Jul 2008 15:19:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from thorn.listbox.com (thorn.listbox.com [208.210.124.75]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K3F00FI0UVFPT@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 12:23:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1ABC1DCA8 for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 12:27:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by apex.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3A9063 for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 11:59:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXHUB016-2.exch016.msoutlookonline.net (exhub016-2.exch016.msoutlookonline.net [207.5.72.164]) by apex.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 155AE5F for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 11:59:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.173]) by EXHUB016-2.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.164]) with mapi; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 08:59:28 -0700 Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 08:59:10 -0700 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: BitTorrent now being used for piracy of textbooks To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0E6E608443A703489B63435E45E64271378B71DB5B@EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: Re: BitTorrent now being used for piracy of textbooks Thread-Index: AQHI3SXEN9jeW7mgnE+86FWmOBTl0w== Accept-Language: en-US acceptlanguage: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Listbox-UUID: 12DEA244-4919-11DD-AA15-B028199CFB26 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 ________________________________________ From: Bob Frankston [bob37-2@bobf.frankston.com] Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 10:28 AM To: David Farber; 'ip' Subject: RE: [IP] Re: BitTorrent now being used for piracy of textboo= ks Periodically we need to step back and ask basic questions like why are we u= sing a particular funding system =96 in this case using text books as units= for recovering the costs of producing the books with some profit incentive= ? The current system is far from perfect and has other side effects such a= s letting states that purchase large volumes dictate policies =96 especiall= y when a state like Texas may view science with fear. In the old days professors would put together their own compendiums using a= copying machine to copy the pages. Torrenting is just an incremental varia= tion on borrowing copies of a text book from a library or buying a used vol= ume. The result of these practices is to up the price for each purchased co= py to compensate what could be considered lost sales of the arbitrary physi= cal objects that are at the center of an arbitrary funding model. Perhaps we can shift to a different funding model by taking advantage of th= e very same technologies to customize the tome to a particular class. Going= one step further would be simply have a per-class surcharge to cover the s= alaries of all the behind-the-scene professors who produce the books and tr= eating them as part of the supporting cast. Paying them by straitjacketing = them into producing saleable artifacts is a very dysfunctional method of co= mpensation. Of course, the supporting cast model has its own issue. I=92m not really arguing that we should bundle everything into a class fee = though maybe it=92s not a bad idea. One problem is reduced transparency and= the idea of paying a different price for each class and even for each prof= essor=92s version. Yet that is precisely what happens when you have to buy = particular editions of particular books. We=92ve just created a system that= works within the =93book=94 story rather than the =93cover the implicit ov= erhead=94 story. So, for now, we can consider Torrenting as push-back within the current mod= el and watch as it plays out. -----Original Message----- From: David Farber [mailto:dave@farber.net] Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 09:32 To: ip Subject: [IP] Re: BitTorrent now being used for piracy of textbooks ________________________________________ From: Seth Goldhamer [seth@goldhamer.net] Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 9:15 AM To: David Farber Subject: RE: [IP] Re: BitTorrent now being used for piracy of textbooks The only people who can solve the problem are the professors who choose the books. If they collectively let it be known that they are taking price into account when they make their selections then maybe prices will become more reasonable. If a lower-priced book is deficient the professor can make up for it in classroom lectures. -----Original Message----- From: David Farber [mailto:dave@farber.net] Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 6:24 AM To: ip Subject: [IP] Re: BitTorrent now being used for piracy of textbooks ________________________________________ From: Kenneth_Mayer@Dell.com [Kenneth_Mayer@Dell.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 10:26 PM To: David Farber Subject: RE: [IP] Re: BitTorrent now being used for piracy of textbooks I could not agree with Kris anymore! I recently started my first semester teaching as an adjunct and I am shocked at what a student has to pay for a textbook for networking. $165 bucks? Are you kidding me, that book is outdated the day it is published. I have also been told I don't have a choice whether to use a book outside of the schools jurisdiction, lest I upset particular people. I feel bad for my students and I am still paying school loans off that include textbooks. I have no sympathy for them either as both a former student and now a teacher. If I would have had the choice to get them off the web when I was in school, I may have considered it as well. Instead of embracing web by starting to use PDF's of textbooks or downloadable courses, they continue to screw students over semester after semester and then proceed to change the book for the semester. You know these books actually rarely change when they have a new edition come out. How many times can World War II actually change? (yes I am joking about the lst one). Ken ------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Thu Jul 3 15:19:16 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3G00J012ZTYX@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 15:19:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3G00J012ZOYN@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Thu, 03 Jul 2008 15:19:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cygnus.listbox.com (cygnus.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K3F00MGRWLEI4@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 13:00:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cygnus.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CCC552 for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 13:04:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 517F51DD05 for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 12:43:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXHUB016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net (exhub016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net [207.5.72.226]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 504AF1DC6D for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 12:43:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.173]) by EXHUB016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.226]) with mapi; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 09:42:54 -0700 Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 09:42:27 -0700 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] This is BAD news -- Google Ordered to Turn Over YouTube User Data To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0E6E608443A703489B63435E45E64271378B71DB5C@EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: This is BAD news -- Google Ordered to Turn Over YouTube User Data Thread-Index: AQHI3SvUb3BGy0xxxk68ytNqCGX1Pw== Accept-Language: en-US acceptlanguage: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Listbox-UUID: 2812B654-491F-11DD-8B49-B144A68752FD X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 ________________________________________ From: Brock N Meeks [bmeeks@cox.net] Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 12:40 PM To: David Farber Subject: Google Ordered to Turn Over YouTube User Data Dave, Forgive me if I've just missed someone else posting this. The following is from EFF regarding a court ruling released late yesterday. The mainstream press hasn't jumped on this like I would image, the first reports came out about a parallel ruling in the case in that denied a Viacom request for Google to hand over source code. But here's the real hub of the decision handed down yesterday: Yesterday, in the Viacom v. Google litigation, the federal court for the Southern District of New York ordered Google to produce to Viacom (over Google's objections): "...all data from the Logging database concerning each time a YouTube video has been viewed on the YouTube website or through embedding on a third-party website..." The court=92s order grants Viacom's request and erroneously ignores the protections of the federal Video Privacy Protection Act (VPPA), and threatens to expose deeply private information about what videos are watched by YouTube users. The VPPA passed after a newspaper disclosed Supreme Court nominee Robert Bork's video rental records. As Congress recognized, your selection of videos to watch is deeply personal and deserves the strongest protection. The Logging database contains: "....for each instance a video is watched, the unique =93login ID=94 of the user who watched it, the time when the user started to watch the video, the internet protocol address other devices connected to the internet use to identify the user=92s computer (=93IP address=94), and the identifier for the video." [snip] http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2008/07/court-ruling-will-expose-viewing-habit= s-youtube-us -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Thu Jul 3 15:19:17 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3G00J012ZTYX@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 15:19:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3G00J012ZOYN@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Thu, 03 Jul 2008 15:19:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cygnus.listbox.com (cygnus.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K3F00MGUWLHI4@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 13:00:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cygnus.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 417286E for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 13:04:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chiclet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E51472212F7 for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 12:44:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXHUB016-1.exch016.msoutlookonline.net (exhub016-1.exch016.msoutlookonline.net [207.5.72.163]) by chiclet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7A02221358 for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 12:44:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.173]) by EXHUB016-1.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.163]) with mapi; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 09:44:08 -0700 Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 09:43:54 -0700 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Texbook alternatives (networking) To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0E6E608443A703489B63435E45E64271378B71DB5D@EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: Texbook alternatives (networking) Thread-Index: AQHI3SwBC7X6fVMskEWNqWJWQNTugw== Accept-Language: en-US acceptlanguage: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Listbox-UUID: 514B5F08-491F-11DD-A8EB-EE9635DD541D X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 ________________________________________ From: Ole Jacobsen [ole@cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 12:08 PM To: David Farber Subject: Texbook alternatives (networking) For IP: Dave, As a long-time editor of two journals that covered (and in the case of IPJ continues to cover) networking topics, could I refer your readers to a couple of sources for textbook alternatives: 1. The ConneXions archive: http://www.cbi.umn.edu/hostedpublications/Connexions/index.html Many of these articles are in fact BOOK EXTRACTS taken from major networking text at the time (1987 - 1996) 2. The Internet Protocol Journal (1998 - ) http://www.cisco.com/ipj Continues to cover current and emerging networking technologies. Some of the articles in IPJ are also taken from networking textbooks. Both sources are free (both from advertising and in the commercial sense), both are suitable for students, in fact instructors often ask me for reproduction permission which I always grant. Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: ole@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Thu Jul 3 15:19:18 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3G00J012ZTYX@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 15:19:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3G00J012ZOYN@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Thu, 03 Jul 2008 15:19:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cygnus.listbox.com (cygnus.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K3F002BVYW2A0@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 13:50:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cygnus.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86878AB for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 13:53:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chiclet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DCCA22221F for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 13:33:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXHUB016-1.exch016.msoutlookonline.net (exhub016-1.exch016.msoutlookonline.net [207.5.72.163]) by chiclet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E199D221FBB for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 13:33:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.173]) by EXHUB016-1.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.163]) with mapi; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 10:33:24 -0700 Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 10:33:11 -0700 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: This is BAD news -- Google Ordered to Turn Over YouTube User Data To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0E6E608443A703489B63435E45E64271378B71DB5F@EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: approve:shit Re: This is BAD news -- Google Ordered to Turn Over YouTube User Data Thread-Index: AQHI3TLk5YC4C4YlbESdC16aaLRvAQ== Accept-Language: en-US acceptlanguage: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Listbox-UUID: 33F8A864-4926-11DD-8E3B-16B935DD541D X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 ________________________________________ From: Synthesis:Law and Technology Law and Technology [synthesis.law.and.te= chnology@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 1:02 PM To: David Farber; Brock N Meeks Cc: ip Subject: Re: [IP] This is BAD news -- Google Ordered to Turn Over YouTube U= ser Data Dave, This will most certainly be appealed. Google has the resources as well as = the interest and they can certainly find grounds for appeal in the decision= . If you read the linked EFF page, they lay out a brief introduction to so= me of the possible grounds for appeal and I am sure there are others. Bad news? Yes. But it is not over yet. Can you see Google welcoming this d= ecision and not fighting it? It would be a huge (read google-sized) headach= e for them to comply with. Dan Dan Steinberg SYNTHESIS:Law & Technology 35, du Ravin phone: (613) 794-5356 Chelsea, Quebec J9B 1N1 On 7/3/08, David Farber > wrote: ________________________________________ From: Brock N Meeks [bmeeks@cox.net] Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 12:40 PM To: David Farber Subject: Google Ordered to Turn Over YouTube User Data Dave, Forgive me if I've just missed someone else posting this. The following is from EFF regarding a court ruling released late yesterday. The mainstream press hasn't jumped on this like I would image, the first reports came out about a parallel ruling in the case in that denied a Viacom request for Google to hand over source code. But here's the real hub of the decision handed down yesterday: Yesterday, in the Viacom v. Google litigation, the federal court for the Southern District of New York ordered Google to produce to Viacom (over Google's objections): "...all data from the Logging database concerning each time a YouTube video has been viewed on the YouTube website or through embedding on a third-party website..." The court's order grants Viacom's request and erroneously ignores the protections of the federal Video Privacy Protection Act (VPPA), and threatens to expose deeply private information about what videos are watched by YouTube users. The VPPA passed after a newspaper disclosed Supreme Court nominee Robert Bork's video rental records. As Congress recognized, your selection of videos to watch is deeply personal and deserves the strongest protection. The Logging database contains: "....for each instance a video is watched, the unique "login ID" of the user who watched it, the time when the user started to watch the video, the internet protocol address other devices connected to the internet use to identify the user's computer ("IP address"), and the identifier for the video." [snip] http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2008/07/court-ruling-will-expose-viewing-habit= s-youtube-us -- -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Thu Jul 3 15:19:19 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3G00J012ZTYX@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 15:19:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3G00J012ZOYN@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Thu, 03 Jul 2008 15:19:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from thorn.listbox.com (thorn.listbox.com [208.210.124.75]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K3F003D1ZA0QT@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 13:58:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thorn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 238081DD0A for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 14:02:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cygnus.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFE3AB5 for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 13:34:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXHUB016-4.exch016.msoutlookonline.net (exhub016-4.exch016.msoutlookonline.net [207.5.72.225]) by cygnus.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9DA1A5 for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 13:34:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.173]) by EXHUB016-4.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.225]) with mapi; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 10:34:20 -0700 Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 10:34:04 -0700 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Open Educational Resources as an alternative to Textbook Piracy To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0E6E608443A703489B63435E45E64271378B71DB60@EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: Open Educational Resources as an alternative to Textbook Piracy Thread-Index: AQHI3TMFp743d/fPBU+wQ12hwSQPWg== Accept-Language: en-US acceptlanguage: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Listbox-UUID: 4BC53462-4926-11DD-B4CF-193157A607E7 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 ________________________________________ From: David Lassner [david@hawaii.edu] Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 1:09 PM To: David Farber Subject: Re: [IP] Open Educational Resources as an alternative to Textbook = Piracy IP readers may be interested in the "movement" to share educationally resources freely, which largely falls under the umbrella of Open Educational Resources (OER). This approach enables both learners and faculty to identify high-quality educational content and tools that can be used in formal courses as well as informal and lifelong learning. MIT's Open Courseware initiative has been a poster-child for OER. Several foundations have made substantial investments, e.g. and there are many more initiatives that work at the institutional level and beyond. To make Bob Frankston's point in another way, universities have generally delegated selection of course materials to individual faculty, who may or may not even work together within departments much less across disciplines. The lack of collective positioning by selectors (who do not bear the costs) has put control of the marketplace in the hands of the textbook publishers. Their ultimate responsibility is of course to maximize value to shareholders. This is not their fault, it's the marketplace we have created and support. Breaking the law through piracy, whether with BitTorrent or a copier, is not the answer. OER *may* represent another approach to the legal creation, distributiong and use educational resources. A fun place to start exploring is: http://zaidlearn.blogspot.com/2008/06/university-learning-ocw-oer-free.= html ------------------------------------------------------------------------ David Lassner david@hawaii.edu Vice President for Information Technology & Chief Information Officer Voice: +1 808-956-3501 University of Hawaii Fax: +1 808-956-5025 On Jul 3, 2008, at 5:59 AM, David Farber wrote: > ________________________________________ > From: Bob Frankston [bob37-2@bobf.frankston.com] > Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 10:28 AM > To: David Farber; 'ip' > Subject: RE: [IP] Re: BitTorrent now being used for piracy of > textbooks > > Periodically we need to step back and ask basic questions like why > are we using a particular funding system =96 in this case using text > books as units for recovering the costs of producing the books with > some profit incentive? The current system is far from perfect and > has other side effects such as letting states that purchase large > volumes dictate policies =96 especially when a state like Texas may > view science with fear. > > In the old days professors would put together their own compendiums > using a copying machine to copy the pages. Torrenting is just an > incremental variation on borrowing copies of a text book from a > library or buying a used volume. The result of these practices is to > up the price for each purchased copy to compensate what could be > considered lost sales of the arbitrary physical objects that are at > the center of an arbitrary funding model. -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Jul 4 09:06:29 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3H00N01GEO6J@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 04 Jul 2008 09:06:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3H00N01GEK63@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 04 Jul 2008 09:06:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cygnus.listbox.com (cygnus.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K3G0069W86B3F@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 17:10:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cygnus.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B38C996 for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 17:14:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90942FD8 for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 16:55:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXHUB016-1.exch016.msoutlookonline.net (exhub016-1.exch016.msoutlookonline.net [207.5.72.163]) by a-lb-mx-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8131BFD1 for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 16:55:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.173]) by EXHUB016-1.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.163]) with mapi; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 13:55:29 -0700 Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 13:55:14 -0700 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: This is BAD news -- Google Ordered to Turn Over YouTube User Data To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0E6E608443A703489B63435E45E64271378B71DB61@EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: approve:shit Re: This is BAD news -- Google Ordered to Turn Over YouTube User Data Thread-Index: AQHI3U8e6OUPB8U6FEG3ATkWvtY4Rw== Accept-Language: en-US acceptlanguage: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Listbox-UUID: 605C08B2-4942-11DD-8C19-E95E6AE672F4 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 ________________________________________ From: Michael R. Nelson [mnelson@pobox.com] Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 3:20 PM To: David Farber Subject: Re: [IP] Re: This is BAD news -- Google Ordered to Turn Over You= Tube User Data Even though the decision will almost certainly appealed, the fact that a ju= dge ruled for Viacom indicates how badly we need to rationalize how copyrig= ht applies online. It's frightening that the privacy rights of tens of mil= lions of YouTube users matter so little. If this decision stands, there would be nothing to prevent any content owne= r (in the US or elsewhere) from suing Goggle and getting the data Viacom is= demanding. Michael R. Nelson Visiting Professor, Internet Studies CCT Georgetown University Washington, DC David Farber wrote: ________________________________________ From: Synthesis:Law and Technology Law and Technology [synthesis.law.and.te= chnology@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 1:02 PM To: David Farber; Brock N Meeks Cc: ip Subject: Re: [IP] This is BAD news -- Google Ordered to Turn Over YouTube U= ser Data Dave, This will most certainly be appealed. Google has the resources as well as t= he interest and they can certainly find grounds for appeal in the decision.= If you read the linked EFF page, they lay out a brief introduction to some= of the possible grounds for appeal and I am sure there are others. Bad news? Yes. But it is not over yet. Can you see Google welcoming this de= cision and not fighting it? It would be a huge (read google-sized) headache= for them to comply with. Dan Dan Steinberg SYNTHESIS:Law & Technology 35, du Ravin phone: (613) 794-5356 Chelsea, Quebec J9B 1N1 On 7/3/08, David Farber > wrote: ________________________________________ From: Brock N Meeks [bmeeks@cox.net] Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 12:40 PM To: David Farber Subject: Google Ordered to Turn Over YouTube User Data Dave, Forgive me if I've just missed someone else posting this. The following is from EFF regarding a court ruling released late yesterday. The mainstream press hasn't jumped on this like I would image, the first reports came out about a parallel ruling in the case in that denied a Viacom request for Google to hand over source code. But here's the real hub of the decision handed down yesterday: Yesterday, in the Viacom v. Google litigation, the federal court for the Southern District of New York ordered Google to produce to Viacom (over Google's objections): "...all data from the Logging database concerning each time a YouTube video has been viewed on the YouTube website or through embedding on a third-party website..." The court's order grants Viacom's request and erroneously ignores the protections of the federal Video Privacy Protection Act (VPPA), and threatens to expose deeply private information about what videos are watched by YouTube users. The VPPA passed after a newspaper disclosed Supreme Court nominee Robert Bork's video rental records. As Congress recognized, your selection of videos to watch is deeply personal and deserves the strongest protection. The Logging database contains: "....for each instance a video is watched, the unique "login ID" of the user who watched it, the time when the user started to watch the video, the internet protocol address other devices connected to the internet use to identify the user's computer ("IP address"), and the identifier for the video." [snip] http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2008/07/court-ruling-will-expose-viewing-habit= s-youtube-us -- ------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Jul 4 09:06:30 2008 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3H00N01GEO6J@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 04 Jul 2008 09:06:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0K3H00N01GEK63@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 04 Jul 2008 09:06:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from chiclet.listbox.com (chiclet.listbox.com [208.210.124.77]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0K3G006HU8NY3F@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 17:21:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chiclet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CC73221ADF for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 17:25:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chiclet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C242221B40 for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 16:58:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXHUB016-2.exch016.msoutlookonline.net (exhub016-2.exch016.msoutlookonline.net [207.5.72.164]) by chiclet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FAF9221A69 for ; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 16:58:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.173]) by EXHUB016-2.exch016.msoutlookonline.net ([207.5.72.164]) with mapi; Thu, 03 Jul 2008 13:57:38 -0700 Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 13:57:05 -0700 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] whole mechanism of textbooks (and books in general) is To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0E6E608443A703489B63435E45E64271378B71DB62@EXVMBX016-3.exch016.msoutlookonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-language: en-US Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-Topic: approve:shit whole mechanism of textbooks (and books in general) is Thread-Index: AQHI3U9rE2EVJliauEOqjiiVAmOsyA== Accept-Language: en-US acceptlanguage: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Listbox-UUID: BB3D845E-4942-11DD-AD28-09B235DD541D X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 ________________________________________ From: Eugene H. Spafford [spaf@mac.com] Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 4:01 PM To: David Farber; ip Subject: Re: [IP] Re: BitTorrent now being used for piracy of textboo= ks As noted, the whole mechanism of textbooks (and books in general) is changing. It used to be that authors toiled over texts to present distilled information about their expertise -- often hard-won, and usually with careful research. The resulting books were valuable for self-study, for teaching, and especially for reference. Books with valuable content and organization were treasured not only for classes, but for later reference. Years later it is possible to go to a particular book to find an algorithm, scientific constant, or quote that is needed. Over time, we have seen trends that have eroded the model -- and more quickly than most have realized. First, computerized type-setting and faster printing allowed a lower barrier to entry for printing. Small publishers could get a profit from a smaller press run, and enticed many new authors to write books on topics where they perceived demand. Some also turned to cheaper materials -- high-acid, low density paper, cheap glue binding, paper covers -- that result in books that wear faster and don't hold up to repeated use or storage as a reference. I look at my reference library (about 800 books) and see many recent publications of very limited utility and likely short life-span. Nonetheless, we see this flood continue because there is a profit to be made and few of the audience read enough of the books to distinguish good from bad, so there continues to be a market. Plus, books with errors or are incomplete aren't a big deal anymore -- put the errata on line, or wait for the next edition (sound like the software problem?). With Google, Yahoo and Wikipedia, many people don't feel the need for physical references on their shelves any more. (Aside -- our new buildings with (small) faculty offices are being constructed with limited bookshelf space. Faculty are told to either take books home or donate them to the library. The image of a learned professor surrounded by books is also becoming pass=E9.) As a (former) author, the question is why would I write a book in this environment? Well, it certainly isn't for the money. As Mary Shaw noted, there isn't a lot of return. I co-wrote a couple, plus many book chapters, and although they sold well, I can't say I made a lot of money. It certainly didn't cover the time away from family, and the permanent damage to my hands (which has limited my ability to write much of anything over the last decade). Many current academic colleagues -- particularly the ones who don't write books -- don't judge them as too significant. Furthermore, using some of the poorer books out there as metrics, they don't value the scholarly effort some of us put into our writing, either. The textbook publishers are in business to make money. So, the ones producing the better textbooks need more incentive to offer authors, plus a bigger profit margin to cover fixed expenses with sales of fewer books. Not all their books are hits, either, so they have this balance between bringing out new titles and sustaining the long-term balance. The result is that costs creep up, even if they are trying to contain them (and I doubt they are as rapacious as the media publishers). So, as an inst