From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Jun 2 08:30:02 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKM00H012PVV6@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 08:29:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKM00H012PSUX@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 02 Jun 2009 08:29:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKK00401Q4XUP@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 01 Jun 2009 15:00:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-fastnet.listbox.com (zeppo.pobox.com [207.8.214.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KKK00MCEQ4XIM@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 01 Jun 2009 15:00:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C9B529D for ; Mon, 01 Jun 2009 15:06:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from barn.listbox.com (barn.listbox.com [207.8.226.4]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A002308F6 for ; Mon, 01 Jun 2009 15:04:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by barn.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35AB2F45A0 for ; Mon, 01 Jun 2009 15:04:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.48]) by umbrella.listbox.com (Postfix) 01 Jun 2009 12:56:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E703030135 for 01 Jun 2009 12:56:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (JACKFRUIT.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.201.16]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9401230131 for ; Mon, 01 Jun 2009 12:56:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n51Gui2P021352 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 01 Jun 2009 12:56:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 12:56:44 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] =?ISO-8859-1?Q? ?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?alled:_How_a_Team_of_Academic_Experts__Contribute?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?d_to_the_President=92s_Cyberspace_Review?= To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <46279975-275F-4686-85CE-BE9CDC0B70FF@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Reinject: approved by webmoderator X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.201.16 X-Listbox-UUID: 1E6968B6-4EDF-11DE-9D09-FDA182C36B21 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 Lines: 61 References: <33554.75.172.209.197.1243829049.squirrel@www.bobrosenberg.phoenix.az.us> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: =46rom: bobr@bobrosenberg.phoenix.az.us Date: June 1, 2009 12:04:09 AM EDT To: "Dave Farber" Subject: NSF: When the Country Called: How a Team of Academic =20 Experts Contributed to the President=C2=92s Cyberspace Review Dave Perhaps for I.P. Cheers, Bob --=20 Bob Rosenberg P.O. Box 33023 Phoenix, AZ 85067-3023 Mobile: 602-206-2856 LandLine: 602-274-3012 bob@bobrosenberg.phoenix.az.us =46rom: National Science Foundation Update Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 13:07:41 -0500 (CDT) Subject: When the Country Called: How a Team of Academic Experts = =20 Contributed to the President=E2=80=99s Cyberspace Review When the Country Called: How a Team of Academic Experts Contributed t= o =20 the President=E2=80=99s Cyberspace Review Map showing U.S. Internet connections When President Obama tapped Melissa Hathaway of the National Security= =20 Council to review the nation's cyberspace policy in 60 days, she knew she needed= =20 to gather insights and perspectives from an array of different stakeholder grou= ps. In addition to consulting with private industry and all levels of = =20 government, Hathaway turned to the nation's top academic experts in the cyberspac= e =20 arena by reaching out to the National Science Foundation (NSF). NSF's innovati= ve collaboration with ... More at http://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=3D114867&govDel= =3DUSNSF_51 This is an NSF News item. -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Jun 2 08:30:03 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKM00H012PVV6@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 08:29:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKM00H012PSUX@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 02 Jun 2009 08:29:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKK00901Y5KSI@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 01 Jun 2009 17:53:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KKK005JVY5JD1@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 01 Jun 2009 17:53:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.49]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52EAA2F37A for ; Mon, 01 Jun 2009 17:59:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4470B2D04F for ; Mon, 01 Jun 2009 17:59:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BB1A30226 for ; Mon, 01 Jun 2009 17:55:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (JACKFRUIT.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.201.16]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8434930223 for ; Mon, 01 Jun 2009 17:54:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n51LshLB019009 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 01 Jun 2009 17:54:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 17:54:40 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Policy beyond the potholes To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_Nf5XxwKlKFDHMA0Fwk6qEw)" X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.201.16 X-Listbox-UUID: DC8DF728-4EF6-11DE-8103-ABB7729389D9 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <019201c9e2fe$ecd54460$c67fcd20$@frankston.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_Nf5XxwKlKFDHMA0Fwk6qEw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Begin forwarded message: =46rom: "Bob Frankston" Date: June 1, 2009 5:21:27 PM EDT To: Cc: "'Dewayne Hendricks'" Subject: Policy beyond the potholes I cringe whenever I hear the arguments that we can=92t have community= =20 owned infrastructure for connectivity because local governments can= =92t =20 fix potholes. I wouldn=92t mind it so much if that argument wasn=92t = used =20 to shut off further discussion. We should be asking why we are denied the =93dumb-pipes=94 that provi= de =20 vital infrastructure and why we allow phone (and TV) companies to = =20 horde vital infrastructure. Instead we accept the =93pothole=94 argum= ent =20 as a reason we can=92t be trusted to communicate on our own. This story in the NYT (New York Times) this week Long a Driver's Curse, Chicago Parking Gets Worse By SUSAN SAULNY So many privately run parking meters were out of order in Chicago tha= t =20 the city declared a moratorium on writing tickets. should help put that nonsense to rest along with other simplistic = =20 notions that =93private enterprise=94 is always better than =93govern= ment=94. =20 These are terms and sound bites that have no deep meaning but spare u= s =20 the need to think. How is this any different from expecting phone or cable companies to = =20 be able to run an infrastructure that threatens their existence? It= =92s =20 far more extreme than the failed idea of having CLECs (Competitive = =20 Local Exchange Carrier) being dependent upon the threatened incumbent= s =20 for transport. I compare these efforts to accepting a just-so surface story. You = =20 don=92t have to dig very deeply to see the structural problems. Often it seems the issues are couched in terms of good guys and bad = =20 guys or, more to the point morality as noted in another NYT piece fro= m =20 this weekend A Promise to Be Ethical in an Era of Immorality By LESLIE WAYNE A new oath to be taken by graduates of Harvard Business School next = =20 week says, in effect, that greed is not good. Granted there have been well-known extreme cases of sociopathic =20 behavior as in the case of Enron. But it is ill-advised to substitute= =20 simplistic notions of ethics for understanding structural issues. If = =20 we align self-interests then greed, or the desire to benefit oneself,= =20 can work in our favor. It=92s about how the interests are aligned = =96 =20 altruists don=92t necessarily have a stake in improving society. Focusing on technology has provided me with a laboratory for =20 understanding the structural issues. The question is how to get peopl= e =20 to look beyond these simplistic mantras and sound bites. Sound bites = =20 are a fine way to open a conversation, just like an elevator pitch in= =20 business. The real tragedy comes when we lock these sound bites into simplistic= =20 rules within a regulatory matrix and legal framework. At D7 (The Wall Street Journal=92s All Things Digital conference) I = =20 listened to Randall Stephenson of ATT explain why it was so hard to = =20 supply bandwidth as he described the myriad ways in which they slice = =20 and dice the capacity though he failed to mention that the reason why= =20 cellular backhaul is so difficult is that they are buying from =20 themselves. I tried to ask why all this complexity when bits are bits= =20 and whether this was about preventing a price collapse due to =20 abundance =96 but it didn=92t fit into the surface story. I saw this again as the speakers describe the broadcast industry = =20 without any hint whatsoever that they are wasting a valuable =20 infrastructure by locking it into the accidental properties of legacy= =20 TV and telephony markets. Where is the discussion about what would be= =20 possible if we liberated it? Before IBM had to separate hardware fro= m =20 software computers were only useful for designated applications =96 = =20 society discovered new value in the hardware once it was liberated = =20 =66rom IBM=92s value chain. We need to stop saying thing like =93the governments can=92t fix poth= oles =20 so=85=94 and stop pretending that =93private enterprise=94 is magic. = =20 Governments are us and they have certain structural characteristic; = =20 corporations are another kind of structure. Those making policy and = =20 practicing legal legerdemain have a responsibility understand what = =20 goes on beneath the surface. http://frankston.com/public ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_Nf5XxwKlKFDHMA0Fwk6qEw) Content-type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

Begin for= warded message:

From: "Bob Frankston" <Bob19-0501@bobf.frankston.com>
Date: June 1, 20= 09 5:21:27 PM EDT
Cc: "'Dewayne Hendricks'" <= ;dewayne@warpspeed.com&g= t;
Subject: Policy beyond the potholes<= /div>

= I cringe whenever I hear the arguments that we can=92t have commu= nity owned infrastructure for connectivity because local governments = can=92t fix potholes. I wouldn=92t mind it so much if that argument w= asn=92t used to shut off further discussion.
<= div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.000= 1pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-se= rif; "> 
We should be ask= ing why we are denied the =93dumb-pipes=94 that provide vital infrast= ructure and why we allow phone (and TV) companies to horde vital infr= astructure. Instead we accept the =93pothole=94 argument as a reason = we can=92t be trusted to communicate on our own.
 
This story i= n the NYT (New York Times) this week
Long a= Driver's Curse, Chicago Parking Gets Worse 
By SUSAN SAULNY 
So many privately r= un parking meters were out of order in Chicago that the city declared= a moratorium on writing tickets.
 
should help put that nonsense to rest along with other simplist= ic notions that =93private enterprise=94 is always better than =93gov= ernment=94. These are terms and sound bites that have no deep meaning= but spare us the need to think.
How is this any different= from expecting phone or cable companies to be able to run an infrast= ructure that threatens their existence? It=92s far more extreme than = the failed idea of having CLECs (Competitive Local Exchange Carrier) = being dependent upon the threatened incumbents for transport.
 
 
 <= /span>
A Promise to Be Ethical in an Era of Immorality By LESLIE WAYNE 
A new oath to be taken by graduates of Harvard Business School = next week says, in effect, that greed is not good.<= /div>
 
Granted there have been well-known extreme cas= es of sociopathic behavior as in the case of Enron. But it is ill-adv= ised to substitute simplistic notions of ethics for understanding str= uctural issues. If we align self-interests then greed, or the desire = to benefit oneself, can work in our favor. It=92s about how the inter= ests are aligned =96 altruists don=92t necessarily have a stake in im= proving society.
 =
Focusing on technology has provided me with = a laboratory for understanding the structural issues. The question is= how to get people to look beyond these simplistic mantras and sound = bites. Sound bites are a fine way to open a conversation, just like a= n elevator pitch in business.
 
The real tragedy comes when we = lock these sound bites into simplistic rules within a regulatory matr= ix and legal framework.
 <= o:p>
At D7 (The Wall Street Journal=92s All Things Digital conference) I listened= to Randall Stephenson of ATT explain why it was so hard to supply ba= ndwidth as he described the myriad ways in which they slice and dice = the capacity though he failed to mention that the reason why cellular= backhaul is so difficult is that they are buying from themselves. I = tried to ask why all this complexity when bits are bits and whether t= his was about preventing a price collapse due to abundance =96 but it= didn=92t fit into the surface story.
=  
I saw this again as the= speakers describe the broadcast industry without any hint whatsoever= that they are wasting a valuable infrastructure by locking it into t= he accidental properties of legacy TV and telephony markets. Where is= the discussion about what would be possible if we liberated it? = ; Before IBM had to separate hardware from software computers were on= ly useful for designated applications =96 society discovered new valu= e in the hardware once it was liberated from IBM=92s value chain.
 
We need to stop saying thing like =93the governments can=92t fix= potholes so=85=94 and stop pretending that =93private enterprise= =94 is magic. Governments are&n= bsp;us and they have certain structural characteristic; corporations are a= nother kind of structure. Those making policy and practicing legal le= gerdemain have a responsibility understand what goes on beneath the s= urface.

Archives
--Boundary_(ID_Nf5XxwKlKFDHMA0Fwk6qEw)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Jun 2 08:30:05 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKM00H012PVV6@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 08:29:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKM00H012PSUX@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 02 Jun 2009 08:29:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKL00O01WADUK@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 06:11:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-fastnet.listbox.com (zeppo.pobox.com [207.8.214.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KKL00KDDWADV6@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 06:11:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B29B1C9 for ; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 06:17:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE6052C8AC for ; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 06:15:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (JACKFRUIT.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.201.16]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 096592C8AB for ; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 06:15:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n52AF5f3011927 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 06:15:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 06:15:01 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Time Warner Cable says they may log your Internet traffic To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.201.16 X-Listbox-UUID: 496BC8D6-4F5E-11DE-8D17-9641D5408914 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <20090602003713.GA3060@vortex.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Lauren Weinstein Date: June 1, 2009 8:37:13 PM EDT To: nnsquad@nnsquad.org Subject: [ NNSquad ] Time Warner Cable says they may log your Internet traffic Buried in the tiny fine print of the latest Time Warner Cable privacy policy disclosure bill insert: "Operator's system, in delivering and routing the ISP Services, and the systems of Operator's Affililated ISPs, may automatically log information concerning Internet addresses you contact, and the duration of your visits to such addresses." --Lauren-- NNSquad Moderator -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Jun 2 08:30:06 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKM00H012PVV6@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 08:29:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKM00H012PSUX@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 02 Jun 2009 08:29:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKL00001WNEKV@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 06:18:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KKL00OBAWNE0H@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 06:18:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.49]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98C1719A4 for ; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 06:25:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A0A42DEE6 for ; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 06:25:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 471472C8C7 for ; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 06:16:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (JACKFRUIT.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.201.16]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23E682C8C3 for ; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 06:16:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n52AF5f4011927 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 06:16:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 06:16:03 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Time Warner Cable CEO investor conference comments To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <31C80457-D3FF-4C97-90A6-DA9E42273E83@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.201.16 X-Listbox-UUID: 7499B91E-4F5E-11DE-A3A5-AC8EE63C3C46 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <200905301406.n4UE4CSV022720@pyramid-04.kattare.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: =46rom: Harold Ancell Date: May 30, 2009 10:05:14 AM EDT To: nnsquad@nnsquad.org Subject: [ NNSquad ] Time Warner Cable CEO investor conference comme= nts > From dslreports.com: http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Time-Warner-Cable-Acknowledges-Deb= acle-102670 or http://tinyurl.com/lake3g Time Warner Cable Acknowledges 'Debacle' Though CEO says he still thinks metered billing will work... 01:35PM Friday May 29 2009 by Karl Bode tags: business =B7 bandwidth =B7 Op/Ed =B7 cable =B7 RoadRunner Cab= le Speaking publicly on the issue for the first time since Time Warner Cable's PR disaster, CEO Glenn Britt admitted to attendees of a Sanford Berstein investor conference that efforts to hoist per-byte billing upon unwilling customers didn't uh, go very well.... Several interesting quotes, particularly this admission: Despite company claims, consumption-based pricing is aimed at monetizing the growing explosion in video delivery over the Internet, protecting TV revenues, and pleasing investors. "If, at an extreme, you could get all of the programming you get over cable for free on the Internet, over time people will stop buying (TV)," Britt told investors in a bit of candor that wasn't apparent in the company's communication with its customers. =09=09=09=09=09- Harold [ It should be clear by now to virtually everybody that the driving force behind bandwidth caps by ISPs who are also in the TV business is protection of their content channels. Other key grafs from the article: That would leave Time Warner Cable as just a dumb-pipe =09 bandwidth provider -- and that's the deepest, darkest fear of =09 any cable or phone company CEO. Carriers are terrified of a =09 future where they just provide high quality cheap bandwidth =09 and other companies make a killing from video, content, and =09 communications services. When the company suspended the trials, they announced they'd =09 release a usage meter for all customers. Like their DOCSIS =09 3.0 launches, the monitoring tools have so far been a no =09 show. We expect that Time Warner Cable is working on the =09 presentation of a new metered billing plan this summer that =09 they'll unveil this fall. -- Lauren Weinstein NNSquad Moderator ] -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Jun 2 13:03:00 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKM00701FCVLN@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 13:02:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKM00701FCPKG@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 02 Jun 2009 13:02:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKM00701716GX@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:03:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-fastnet.listbox.com (zeppo.pobox.com [207.8.214.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KKM00NFT715UQ@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:03:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ACD18C6 for ; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:09:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8A251863 for ; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:08:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (JACKFRUIT.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.201.16]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34D451861 for ; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:08:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.106] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n52E81A5027126 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:08:01 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:08:00 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: Spaff pointer to his blogg on WH Cyberspace Security Review (PDF) To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.201.16 X-Listbox-UUID: C9A20310-4F7E-11DE-A001-C68E5DF1F367 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Gene Spafford Date: June 2, 2009 9:49:10 AM EDT To: David Farber Subject: Re: [IP] WH Cyberspace Security Review (PDF) http://cblog.spaf.us -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Jun 2 13:03:01 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKM00701FCVLN@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 13:02:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKM00701FCPKG@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 02 Jun 2009 13:02:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKM0070173ALE@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:04:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KKM00NOV73ASE@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:04:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.38]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 652181C1C for ; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:10:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 509F51CEE for ; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:10:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFBAF1852 for ; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:06:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E1C41850 for ; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:06:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.106] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n52E6iFk001280 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:06:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:06:43 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Cable companies want cash from tiered service, remote DVRs To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 9D72E548-4F7E-11DE-B5D0-CA46762F8F45 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <138CDF01-BFBE-4D32-99E6-4B6431D37140@warpspeed.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: dewayne@warpspeed.com (Dewayne Hendricks) Date: June 1, 2009 9:37:28 PM EDT To: Dewayne-Net Technology List Subject: [Dewayne-Net] Cable companies want cash from tiered service, remote DVRs CABLE COMPANIES WANT CASH FROM TIERED SERVICE, REMOTE DVRS Cable companies are still worried about drops in revenue that may come as the economic pinch encourages subscribers to cut out premium TV services. That may be why, despite consumer backlash, they've made recent moves to adopt bandwidth caps and metered usage plans. But they may be getting another revenue option, as the Obama administration is backing Cablevision's attempts to sell a networked DVR service to its customers. Courtesy of the Benton Foundation RSS Feed: -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Wed Jun 3 07:11:06 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKN00101TQFG4@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 07:11:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKN00101TQBFP@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Wed, 03 Jun 2009 07:10:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKN00201LEMNX@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 04:11:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KKN00MJTLEM4S@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 04:11:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B90C717489 for ; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 04:17:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA4A2116C for ; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 04:17:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D87EE171B for ; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 04:11:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (JACKFRUIT.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.201.16]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 493B71719 for ; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 04:11:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n538BYsT024720 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 04:11:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 04:11:33 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] U.S. Inquiry Into Hiring at High-Tech Companies - NYTimes.com To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <88B8796A-BA6D-40FA-8FF1-3429821C8328@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_GIPxFb5nvjUNRzJtdP4D/g)" X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.201.16 X-Listbox-UUID: 290567E2-5016-11DE-A9E0-FE8CD5B8FB08 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_GIPxFb5nvjUNRzJtdP4D/g) Content-type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/03/technology/companies/03trust.html?p= artner=3Drss&emc=3Drss U.S. Inquiry Into Hiring at High-Tech Companies By MIGUEL HELFT SAN FRANCISCO =97 The Justice Department has begun an investigation i= nto =20 whether the recruiting practices of some of the largest technology = =20 companies violated antitrust laws, according to two people with =20 knowledge of the investigation. The investigation targets some of Silicon Valley=92s best known =20 companies, including Google, Yahoo, Apple and several others, these = =20 people said. The exact focus of the inquiry is unclear, but the people familiar = =20 with it said Justice Department lawyers appeared to be looking into = =20 whether the companies involved agreed to not actively recruit =20 employees from each other. The Justice Department has issued civil investigative demands, or = =20 formal requests for documents and information, to some of the =20 companies involved, said the people with knowledge of the inquiry, wh= o =20 agreed to speak on condition of anonymity because the investigation i= s =20 confidential. Google, Apple and Yahoo declined to comment. A Justice Department = =20 spokesman could not be reached for comment. The inquiry, which was first reported on the Web site of the =20 Washington Post late Tuesday, appeared to be in its early stages, sai= d =20 the people familiar with it. ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_GIPxFb5nvjUNRzJtdP4D/g) Content-type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

http= ://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/03/technology/companies/03trust.html?partn= er=3Drss&emc=3Drss

U.S. Inquiry Into Hiring at High-Tech = Companies

<= div class=3D"byline" style=3D"font-weight: bold; font-size: 10pt; ">B= y MIGUEL HELFT=

SAN FRANCIS= CO =97 The Justice Department has begun an investigation into whether= the recruiting practices of some of the largest technology companies= violated antitrust laws, according to two people with knowledge of t= he investigation.

The investigation targets some of Silicon Valley= =92s best known companies, including Google, Yahoo, Apple and several others, these people said.

=

The= exact focus of the inquiry is unclear, but the people familiar with = it said Justice Department lawyers appeared to be looking into whethe= r the companies involved agreed to not actively recruit employees fro= m each other.

The Justice Department has issued civil investigative d= emands, or formal requests for documents and information, to some of = the companies involved, said the people with knowledge of the inquiry= , who agreed to speak on condition of anonymity because the investiga= tion is confidential.

Google, Apple and Yahoo declined to comment. A = Justice Department spokesman could not be reached for comment.

The in= quiry, which was first reported on the Web site of the Washington Pos= t late Tuesday, appeared to be in its early stages, said the people f= amiliar with it.

Archives
--Boundary_(ID_GIPxFb5nvjUNRzJtdP4D/g)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Wed Jun 3 07:11:07 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKN00101TQFG4@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 07:11:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKN00101TQBFP@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Wed, 03 Jun 2009 07:10:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKN00A01O5G9B@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 05:10:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KKN006NDO5FSH@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 05:10:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.38]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 419C21161 for ; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 05:16:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 343D41967 for ; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 05:16:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F332F2CF05 for ; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 05:13:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8A762CF04 for ; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 05:12:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n539CoYh002630 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 05:12:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 05:12:49 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] A Clear Case for ISP Regulation: IP Address Logging To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: BCE68736-501E-11DE-A176-DBD7F801F892 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <20090602185733.GE13652@vortex.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 A Clear Case for ISP Regulation: IP Address Logging http://lauren.vortex.com/archive/000577.html Greetings. Over on the Network Neutrality Squad ( http://www.nnsquad.org ) yesterday, I noted, without comment, the following quote from the new Time Warner Cable privacy policy bill insert: "Operator's system, in delivering and routing the ISP Services, and the systems of Operator's Affiliated ISPs, may automatically log information concerning Internet addresses you contact, and the duration of your visits to such addresses." Today I will comment, and explain why such logging by ISPs creates a clear case for regulatory intervention, on both privacy and competition grounds. ISPs -- the providers of "last mile" Internet access -- are in a unique position vis-a-vis any other provider of Internet-based services. While any individual Internet service -- e.g., a Web site -- can log a variety of information about their individual users, ISPs have the ability to log access information relating to virtually *all* internal and external services that their subscribers visit. There are some technical limitations. Without using Deep Packet Inspection (DPI), an ISP would normally be unable to differentiate which external virtual server a user was accessing on a single shared IP address, and technologies such as proxies and VPNs also can obscure addressing info. But from an ISP standpoint, IP address usage information alone could be a veritable treasure trove, particularly from a competitive standpoint. In the case of Time Warner, their statement regarding IP address logging is buried in a very long privacy policy comprised of very tiny print. It is confusing in some ways. It appears to conflate IP address logging with gathering of personally-identifiable information, and doesn't seem to explicitly address how long logged IP address data, per se, will be retained. However, it does state that personally-identifiable data will be retained for "as long as it is necessary for business purposes" ("as long as you are a subscriber and up to 15 additional years"). The privacy concerns related to one entity having a log of virtually *every* site that you visit on the Internet, and how long you visit those sites, are fairly obvious. As I noted, this capability goes far, far beyond the IP address logging possible by any given non-ISP Internet service. But perhaps much less obvious is the manner in which such ISP IP address logging capabilities could be abused in anticompetitive manners of direct concern to us all. If ISPs were just providers of "dumb Internet pipes" -- as most were until fairly recently -- related anticompetitive concerns would be largely moot. But for many ISPs these days, especially all of the vastly dominant U.S. ISPs, the big money isn't in providing Internet access, it's in providing content -- especially video content. The inexorable move of video to the Internet is now driving many of the most contentious Internet-related issues, including battles over pricing and bandwidth caps. In such an environment, knowing as much as possible about how your users partake of the competition is invaluable. Logged IP address data could provide ISPs with a window directly into how their Internet video competitors and other competitors operate, in a manner only possible by virtue of being ISPs with direct access to the virtually complete data flow of subscribers to and from all sites. ISPs have access to information in a comprehensive manner unlike any of their competitors: How often are subscribers visiting Google? How much time are they spending on YouTube, and during what parts of the day? Are subscribers sometimes using Hulu more, as opposed to YouTube? How about visits to government sites? Or pay movie sites? Porn sites? What sorts of usage patterns can be derived from all of this accessible usage data? How can we use this information to our competitive advantage as a content-providing ISP who wants to encourage the uptake of our content vs. that of outside services? In the case of Time Warner, their privacy policy notes that logged IP address data will not be disclosed or used for "marketing, advertising, or similar purposes." It says nothing about competitive product development and deployment. To be clear, I'm not accusing Time Warner -- or any other ISP -- of abusing IP address data in these ways. Frankly, given the current lack of a mandated regulatory disclosure framework, there's no formal, systematic mechanism to keep the public informed about the presence or absence such activities, now or in the future. Nor does the capability to collect and log IP address data (functions present in much pro-grade networking hardware for engineering purposes) necessarily indicate that this is actually being done in manners that would negatively impact on privacy and competitive concerns (but the associated lack of clarity on these issues and in regards to data retention policies are discouraging in any case). Still, it's readily apparent that ISPs' unique abilities to comprehensively log IP addresses associated with virtually the entire scope of their subscribers' external Internet activities, easily triggers significant concerns relating to potential anticompetitive behaviors and potential privacy abuses. I would assert that regulations prohibiting the use of IP address logging by ISPs in such manners, and mandating routine public disclosures to help ensure that such abuses are not taking place, are immediately called for at the national level. --Lauren-- Lauren Weinstein lauren@vortex.com Tel: +1 (818) 225-2800 http://www.pfir.org/lauren Co-Founder, PFIR - People For Internet Responsibility - http://www.pfir.org Co-Founder, NNSquad - Network Neutrality Squad - http://www.nnsquad.org Founder, GCTIP - Global Coalition for Transparent Internet Performance - http://www.gctip.org Founder, PRIVACY Forum - http://www.vortex.com Member, ACM Committee on Computers and Public Policy Lauren's Blog: http://lauren.vortex.com Twitter: https://twitter.com/laurenweinstein -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Wed Jun 3 07:11:09 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKN00101TQFG4@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 07:11:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKN00101TQBFP@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Wed, 03 Jun 2009 07:10:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKN00A01O76C2@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 05:11:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-fastnet.listbox.com (zeppo.pobox.com [207.8.214.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KKN006OFO76SH@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 05:11:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF4702F for ; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 05:17:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A23DB2CF42 for ; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 05:14:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (JACKFRUIT.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.201.16]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B55402CF40 for ; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 05:14:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n539DxHN025719 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 05:14:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 05:14:23 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] UPI: ISPs Changing Network Neutrality Strategy Due to Changes in Washington To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.201.16 X-Listbox-UUID: EF6233FE-501E-11DE-BED3-8E61CC6538E8 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <20090602161410.GC7696@vortex.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 UPI: ISPs Changing Network Neutrality Strategy Due to Changes in Washington http://bit.ly/3vEtC -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Wed Jun 3 07:11:10 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKN00101TQFG4@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 07:11:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKN00101TQBFP@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Wed, 03 Jun 2009 07:10:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKN00A01O7MDX@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 05:11:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-fastnet.listbox.com (zeppo.pobox.com [207.8.214.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KKN006OSO7MSH@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 05:11:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C162922B for ; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 05:18:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 184D72CF62 for ; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 05:16:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (JACKFRUIT.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.201.16]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AC5B2CF5B for ; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 05:16:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n539DxHQ025719 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 05:16:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 05:16:06 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: Time Warner Cable CEO investor conference comments To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <98EC47F7-6F10-433B-8F8A-5FBA95642408@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.201.16 X-Listbox-UUID: 2D06A708-501F-11DE-AC3A-AF4454D11396 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <21ef2c1c0906022356m641d34e8kd7fae65d3b96fd50@mail.gmail.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: =46rom: vijay gill Date: June 3, 2009 2:56:50 AM EDT To: dave@farber.net Cc: ip Subject: Re: [IP] Time Warner Cable CEO investor conference comments Dr. Farber, for IP if you wish. I wrote about this 'dumb pipe' syndrome today http://vijaygill.wordpress.com/2009/06/02/climbing-up-the-value-chain= / to sum up: 1. Stop being afraid of your own networks, take charge. This is no= t rocket science. 2. Hire the right people. 3. Accept you cannot be all things to all people. No matter how good you are, someone will come up with a better application that run= s over your pipe. 4. Focus on getting cost out of the network, cut the organization down (do you really need a director of test?). Automate everything, s= o you can make a decent margin on the dumb pipe. 5. Be faster (see #1). By definition, if you don=92t own your own network, you can=92t react quickly. 6. Partner with people, make your platform open so applications ca= n use your core strengths and work with you, as opposed to working against you (hello VZ Wireless, how is that GPS lock going?) /vijay On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 3:16 AM, David Farber wrote: > > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Harold Ancell > Date: May 30, 2009 10:05:14 AM EDT > To: nnsquad@nnsquad.org > Subject: [ NNSquad ] Time Warner Cable CEO investor conference = =20 > comments > >> From dslreports.com: > > http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Time-Warner-Cable-Acknowledges-D= ebacle-102670 > > or http://tinyurl.com/lake3g > > Time Warner Cable Acknowledges 'Debacle' > > Though CEO says he still thinks metered billing will work... > > 01:35PM Friday May 29 2009 by Karl Bode > > tags: business =B7 bandwidth =B7 Op/Ed =B7 cable =B7 RoadRunner Ca= ble > > Speaking publicly on the issue for the first time since > Time Warner Cable's PR disaster, CEO Glenn Britt admitted > to attendees of a Sanford Berstein investor conference > that efforts to hoist per-byte billing upon unwilling > customers didn't uh, go very well.... > > Several interesting quotes, particularly this admission: > > Despite company claims, consumption-based pricing is aimed > at monetizing the growing explosion in video delivery over > the Internet, protecting TV revenues, and pleasing > investors. "If, at an extreme, you could get all of the > programming you get over cable for free on the Internet, > over time people will stop buying (TV)," Britt told > investors in a bit of candor that wasn't apparent in the > company's communication with its customers. > > - Harold > > > [ It should be clear by now to virtually everybody that the drivin= g > force behind bandwidth caps by ISPs who are also in the TV > business is protection of their content channels. > > Other key grafs from the article: > > That would leave Time Warner Cable as just a dumb-pipe > bandwidth provider -- and that's the deepest, darkest fear = of > any cable or phone company CEO. Carriers are terrified of a > future where they just provide high quality cheap bandwidth > and other companies make a killing from video, content, and > communications services. > > When the company suspended the trials, they announced they'd > release a usage meter for all customers. Like their DOCSIS > 3.0 launches, the monitoring tools have so far been a no > show. We expect that Time Warner Cable is working on the > presentation of a new metered billing plan this summer that > they'll unveil this fall. > > -- Lauren Weinstein > NNSquad Moderator ] > > > > > ------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Wed Jun 3 07:11:11 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKN00101TQFG4@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 07:11:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKN00101TQBFP@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Wed, 03 Jun 2009 07:10:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKN00B01OHY7C@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 05:17:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KKN006VWOHXSH@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 05:17:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55A6417FFF for ; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 05:24:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A4E3147B for ; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 05:24:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E2302CFE1 for ; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 05:20:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (JACKFRUIT.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.201.16]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34A302CFE0 for ; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 05:20:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n539DxHP025719 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 05:15:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 05:15:18 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] ISP NN Strategies and 47 usc 230 To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.201.16 X-Listbox-UUID: CA63FF50-501F-11DE-BF24-D6F6CD80BC50 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <20090602162238.GA8259@vortex.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 It's worth pointing out, as a reader just reminded me, that ISP strategies related to their "new approach" for dealing with Network Neutrality may rely heavily on 47 usc 230: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/47/230.html --Lauren-- NNSquad Moderator -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Thu Jun 4 08:16:31 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKP00801RFFWL@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 04 Jun 2009 08:16:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKP00801RF5U3@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Thu, 04 Jun 2009 08:16:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKP00A010TYEV@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 22:41:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KKP0098C0TXYI@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 22:41:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E92F4171A1 for ; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 22:48:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D99CB193C for ; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 22:48:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23FC72D6A0 for ; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 22:44:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECFDA2D69F for ; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 22:44:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n542iPgE025530 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 22:44:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 22:44:24 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: A Clear Case for ISP Regulation: IP Address Logging To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <2921BBFF-D23C-4F29-93C1-3C6E4CCC17C5@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 9FC0D89E-50B1-11DE-BCB4-D6C50EA2A3D5 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <4A26AD53.1040601@rancid.berkeley.edu> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Michael Sinatra Date: June 3, 2009 1:05:23 PM EDT To: dave@farber.net Subject: Re: [IP] A Clear Case for ISP Regulation: IP Address Logging On 06/03/09 02:12, David Farber wrote: > A Clear Case for ISP Regulation: IP Address Logging > http://lauren.vortex.com/archive/000577.html > Greetings. Over on the Network Neutrality Squad > ( http://www.nnsquad.org ) yesterday, I noted, without comment, the > following quote from the new Time Warner Cable privacy policy bill > insert: > "Operator's system, in delivering and routing the ISP Services, and > the systems of Operator's Affiliated ISPs, may automatically log > information concerning Internet addresses you contact, and the > duration of your visits to such addresses." Once again, this sounds like simple netflow retention. I don't know of any ISP that *doesn't* do this, because it's impossible to run an ISP, or even an enterprise, without it. It would be like trying to negotiate an electric bill with the power company in the absence of an electric meter. If I may suggest a more benign use of this data, it is usually for capacity planning (predicting which peering points might become congested), billing of per-usage customers, identifying opportunities for new peering, keeping transit costs under control, and ensuring that settlement-free peering agreements are met. (Many of these agreements have explicit requirements for flow data.) For an enterprise, it helps you control how much money you pay to those ISPs by identifying hosts that may be unwittingly consuming bandwidth-- before a nasty surprise at the end of the month. In many cases, the ISP *can* anonymize the data down to the /24 or similar level, but that precludes other uses of flow data: finding hosts that are misconfigured or compromised, or running as open proxies or open mail relays. (It also may be necessary to confirm such activity if notified by others, including law enforcement. There have been cases of "your host has been attacking me!!" reports where netflow helped explain what was really happening.) I'd suggest that it's actually a better idea to regulate the anti- competitive practices that Lauren identified as *potential* uses of flow data. Given the legitimate uses of the data, banning it outright would cause major problems not just for ISPs, but for a lot of their paying customers. Michael Sinatra -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Thu Jun 4 19:38:26 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKQ00D01MZYE0@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 04 Jun 2009 19:38:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKQ00D01MZVDT@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Thu, 04 Jun 2009 19:38:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKQ000013BJBC@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 04 Jun 2009 12:33:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KKQ00KSH3BQ9A@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 04 Jun 2009 12:33:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.49]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FF041EE7 for ; Thu, 04 Jun 2009 12:39:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3230D11F6 for ; Thu, 04 Jun 2009 12:39:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 544F02DC30 for ; Thu, 04 Jun 2009 12:35:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33D312DC2F for ; Thu, 04 Jun 2009 12:35:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n54GZJlN007982 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 04 Jun 2009 12:35:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 12:35:18 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] EFF Launches TOSBack - A 'Terms of Service' Tracker for Facebook, Google, eBay, and More To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: B4540D84-5125-11DE-AF67-E9D251939540 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <4A27F370.4090702@eff.org> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: EFF Press Date: June 4, 2009 12:16:48 PM EDT To: presslist@eff.org Subject: [E-B] EFF Launches TOSBack - A 'Terms of Service' Tracker for Facebook, Google, eBay, and More Reply-To: press@eff.org Electronic Frontier Foundation Media Release For Immediate Release: Thursday, June 04, 2009 Contact: Tim Jones Activism and Technology Manager Electronic Frontier Foundation tim@eff.org +1 415 436-9333 x135 Fred von Lohmann Senior Intellectual Property Attorney Electronic Frontier Foundation fred@eff.org +1 415 436-9333 x123 (office), +1 415 215-6087 (cell) EFF Launches TOSBack - A 'Terms of Service' Tracker for Facebook, Google, eBay, and More New Tool Documents Changes in Policy on the Internet's Biggest Websites San Francisco - "Terms of Service" policies on websites define how Internet businesses interact with you and use your personal information. But most web users don't read these policies -- or understand that the terms are constantly changing. To track these ever-evolving documents, the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) is launching "TOSBack": a "terms of service" tracker for Facebook, Google, eBay, and other major websites. "Terms of service form the foundation of your relationship with social networking sites, online businesses, and other Internet communities, but most people become aware of these terms only when there's a problem," said EFF Activism and Technology Manager Tim Jones. "We created TOSBack to help consumers monitor terms of service for the websites they use everyday, and show how the terms change over time." At www.TOSBack.org, you can see a real-time feed of changes and updates to more than three dozen polices from the Internet's most popular online services. Clicking on an update brings you to a side-by-side before-and-after comparison, highlighting what has been removed from the policy and what has been added. The issue of terms-of-service changes -- and how and why they are made -- was highlighted earlier this year when Facebook modified its terms of use. Facebook users worried that the change gave the company the right to use members' content indefinitely. After a user revolt, Facebook announced that it would restore the former terms while it worked through the concerns users had raised. "Some changes to terms of service are good for consumers, and some are bad," said EFF Senior Staff Attorney Fred von Lohmann. "But Internet users are increasingly trusting websites with everything from their photos to their 'friends lists' to their calendar -- and sometimes even their medical information. TOSBack will help consumers flag changes in the websites they use every day and trust with their personal information." For TOSBack: http://www.TOSBack.org For this release: http://www.eff.org/press/archives/2009/06/03-0 About EFF The Electronic Frontier Foundation is the leading civil liberties organization working to protect rights in the digital world. Founded in 1990, EFF actively encourages and challenges industry and government to support free expression and privacy online. EFF is a member-supported organization and maintains one of the most linked-to websites in the world at http://www.eff.org/ -end- _______________________________________________ To unsubscribe or manage your email options: https://mail1.eff.org/mailman/listinfo/presslist -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Thu Jun 4 19:38:27 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKQ00D01MZYE0@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 04 Jun 2009 19:38:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKQ00D01MZVDT@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Thu, 04 Jun 2009 19:38:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKQ00B01M02LX@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 04 Jun 2009 19:16:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KKQ009ACM02GG@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 04 Jun 2009 19:16:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49A81179B2 for ; Thu, 04 Jun 2009 19:23:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DDDE23F1 for ; Thu, 04 Jun 2009 19:23:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 876D06A1 for ; Thu, 04 Jun 2009 19:19:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (JACKFRUIT.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.201.16]) by a-lb-mx-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9969469D for ; Thu, 04 Jun 2009 19:19:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n54NJVTr006375 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 04 Jun 2009 19:19:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 19:19:31 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] FTC - In Unprecedent Move - Shuts Down Massive Spam Hosting Operation To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.201.16 X-Listbox-UUID: 2AB5E028-515E-11DE-935B-8051BE623136 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <20090604213600.GA475@vortex.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Lauren Weinstein Date: June 4, 2009 5:36:00 PM EDT To: dave@farber.net Subject: FTC - In Unprecedent Move - Shuts Down Massive Spam Hosting Operation Dave, Some good news -- for now anyway -- on the spam fighting front. As reported in the Washington Post, the FTC has sued and shut down Triple Fiber of San Jose, by obtaining a court order cutting off feeds from their service providers. This apparently shut down more than 15K associated Web sites. These were apparently pretty nasty characters. This is the first time that the FTC has sought and obtained such a shutdown order. More at: http://bit.ly/PAUtg This may be little more than a drop in the spam bucket overall, but at least the bucket isn't still bone dry. --Lauren-- Lauren Weinstein lauren@vortex.com Tel: +1 (818) 225-2800 http://www.pfir.org/lauren --- With Apologies to Darth Vader: "The ISPs Strike Back" http://lauren.vortex.com/archive/000578.html --- Co-Founder, PFIR - People For Internet Responsibility - http://www.pfir.org Co-Founder, NNSquad - Network Neutrality Squad - http://www.nnsquad.org Founder, GCTIP - Global Coalition for Transparent Internet Performance - http://www.gctip.org Founder, PRIVACY Forum - http://www.vortex.com Member, ACM Committee on Computers and Public Policy Lauren's Blog: http://lauren.vortex.com Twitter: https://twitter.com/laurenweinstein -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Jun 5 10:44:17 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKR00G01SXO20@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 05 Jun 2009 10:44:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKR00G01SXK1M@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 05 Jun 2009 10:44:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKR00901QKEML@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 05 Jun 2009 09:54:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KKR004OBQMBQI@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 05 Jun 2009 09:54:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix [208.72.237.63]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30D15189FC for ; Fri, 05 Jun 2009 10:00:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by d-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2629E1B46 for ; Fri, 05 Jun 2009 10:00:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D75D97BF for ; Fri, 05 Jun 2009 09:56:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (JACKFRUIT.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.201.16]) by a-lb-mx-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D34C77BA for ; Fri, 05 Jun 2009 09:56:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FARBERMAC.ISRI.CMU.EDU (FARBERMAC.ISRI.CMU.EDU [128.2.220.234]) (authenticated bits=0) by jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n55Dulr4011186 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 05 Jun 2009 09:56:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 09:56:44 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] two weeks with the MiFi To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.201.16 X-Listbox-UUID: B7CAB978-51D8-11DE-B4D5-811385B9E551 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <500A8859-0B3A-4DD9-8C6E-2B9904524219@aland.bbn.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Craig Partridge Date: June 5, 2009 8:03:05 AM EDT To: David Farber , Will Leland , newmedia@aol.com , steve@stevencrowley.com, brent@nordist.net, staylor@bbn.com, Vince Cipriano Cc: Craig Partridge Subject: two weeks with the MiFi Several folks asked me for my experience with the Verizon MiFi. I have had it for a bit over two weeks now and been able to use it in a range of environments including three airports (Detroit, Washington National, and Boston), and a variety of locations in the Michigan, Washington DC and Boston areas. For those who haven't seen the advance reviews, the MIFI is a credit- card sized wireless hub connected to the Internet through Verizon's EVDO service. The simplest way to think of it is a wireless hub that works just about anywhere a cell phone would work. It supports up to 5 concurrent WiFi clients. It costs $100 (after rebate and if you sign up for a two-year plan) and offers three plans: a low usage domestic plan, a higher (5GB/mo) usage domestic plan and an international plan (not mentioned in the reviews I saw but quoted to me at the store). Verizon quotes these as $40/$60/$120 respectively but after taxes and fees are added in, for me, the $60 plan became a $70 plan. My experience so far has been generally positive, with a few glitches. If you have 5 bars for EVDO connectivity, you usually experience excellent WiFi service, comparable to or better than your typical hotspot, and the battery life appears to be close to the advertised 4 hours (the longest continuous use time for me was about 2 hours and I had not reached 1/2 battery strength). Things were less happy if EVDO connectivity was less good (in Verizon's defense, it took effort to find such locations). I managed to spend several hours in a location where I had zero/one bars yet had carrier -- nicely enough WiFi still worked but, unsurprisingly, it was highly bursty and the loss rate was high (6% measured). A surprise was that the MiFi became noticeably hot to the touch and depleted its battery in about 90 minutes. My summary -- wonderful when connectivity is good (which it usually is) and workable but a challenge when connectivity is bad. Note none of my tests involved more than one WiFi client at a time. Three other observations. You can plug the MiFi into your laptop's USB port and it will work as a modem and draw power from the laptop (I didn't check to see if others can still see the MiFi as a WiFi hub in this mode). So battery life is not the critical feature you might imagine. On a Mac, the accompanying software package (which, so far as I can tell, you only need to get cumulative usage statistics so you know when you are getting close to your monthly data limit) only worked with the MiFi plugged into the USB (which may be a configuration error on my part) and tends to hang. Simpler to simply use the (unadvertised) web interface (http://192.168.1.1/). Last, while the overall MiFi packaging is sturdy (nice in a small device likely to get bounced around), the USB connector is one of those USB A- >mini B connectors used in cameras and does not feel robust (it requires considerable force to plug the mini-B connector into the MIFI and my guess is it may not survive two years of frequent plugging/ unplugging -- I'm going to look for a better cable (in the hopes that reduces strain) and failing that, buy the monthly insurance). Overall I'm pleased. Obviously this is just my personal experience and your mileage may vary. Craig -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Jun 5 18:28:45 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKS00C01EFTBG@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 05 Jun 2009 18:28:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKS00C01EFQBB@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 05 Jun 2009 18:28:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKR00L01UNXAX@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 05 Jun 2009 11:21:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KKR00K2QUNXYQ@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 05 Jun 2009 11:21:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D72798445 for ; Fri, 05 Jun 2009 11:28:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4A902BBF for ; Fri, 05 Jun 2009 11:28:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D5702AC7 for ; Fri, 05 Jun 2009 11:24:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (JACKFRUIT.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.201.16]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 137272AC6 for ; Fri, 05 Jun 2009 11:24:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FARBERMAC.ISRI.CMU.EDU (FARBERMAC.ISRI.CMU.EDU [128.2.220.234]) (authenticated bits=0) by jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n55FOFrj021281 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 05 Jun 2009 11:24:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 11:24:14 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Observation suggested by the investigation into anti-competitive hiring behavior To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.201.16 X-Listbox-UUID: EF1727CA-51E4-11DE-9FB1-CC5DBDDB0776 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <12351209.193581244210657127.JavaMail.root@ball.east.ora.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Andy Oram Date: June 5, 2009 10:04:17 AM EDT To: dave@farber.net Subject: Observation suggested by the investigation into anti- competitive hiring behavior A light post, but may be interesting: http://broadcast.oreilly.com/2009/06/big-fish-little-fish-the-benef.html -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Andy Oram O'Reilly Media email: andyo@oreilly.com Editor 10 Fawcett Street, Fourth Floor voice: 617-499-7479 Cambridge, MA 02138-1175, USA fax: 617-661-1116 identi.ca/twitter:praxagora http://www.praxagora.com/andyo/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Mon Jun 8 08:16:33 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKX0040163HL4@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 08:16:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKX0040163EKW@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Mon, 08 Jun 2009 08:16:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKV00001LCIRA@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Sun, 07 Jun 2009 11:50:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from iapetus.listbox.com (logs-ng.pobox.com [207.106.133.8]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KKV00NKXLCICT@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Sun, 07 Jun 2009 11:50:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by iapetus.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ABEEA67 for ; Sun, 07 Jun 2009 11:57:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 11:57:16 -0400 (EDT) From: ip-request@v2.listbox.com Subject: You have left ip To: interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org Message-id: <20090607155716.8ABEEA67@iapetus.listbox.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline Your email address interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org has been unsubscribed from ip. No further action is necessary. Thank you for being with us. (If you did not initiate this unsubscription, please visit https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=7682325&id_secret=7682325-b55427af to resubscribe. You can also set a password to prevent future malicious unsubscriptions.)   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Mon Jun 8 15:40:27 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKX00201QNB99@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 15:40:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKX00201QN88Z@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Mon, 08 Jun 2009 15:40:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKX008017I24B@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 08:46:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KKX008087I23T@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 08:46:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.38]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 502D32531 for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 08:53:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43FE43599 for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 08:53:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7933382A for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 08:49:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (JACKFRUIT.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.201.16]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A6F63829 for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 08:49:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n58Cn1sd021778 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 08:49:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 08:49:32 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: It's the Internet Stupid To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.201.16 X-Listbox-UUID: D0B1E502-542A-11DE-8755-F321BDDB0776 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <20090608124647.GA1583@hserus.net> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Suresh Ramasubramanian Date: June 8, 2009 8:46:47 AM EDT To: David Farber Cc: isen@isen.com, ali@circleid.com, richard@bennett.com Subject: Re: [IP] It's the Internet Stupid I'd say it is a tactic that can be used legitimately, or illegitimately, by an ISP no matter what its size is. I dont agree with Brett Glass on several issues but on this occasion he happens to be right, there are several legitimate technical and operational uses for DPI and other preferential treatment of packets. I would repeat my call for improper use of DPI to be targeted rather than DPI either legislated away, or vilified or both. srs David Farber [08/06/09 07:20 -0400]: > As is often the case, the devil is in the details. djf > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: "David S. Isenberg (isen)" > Date: June 7, 2009 5:41:01 PM EDT > To: dave@farber.net > Subject: Re: [IP] Re: It's the Internet Stupid > > Dave, > > For IP per your judgement. > > I'm one of the primary perpetrators of http://ItsTheInternetStupid.com > > I've told Brett many times, and I'd like to say it again publicly, > that even though I favor, "prohibit[ing] discriminatory or > preferential > treatment of packets based on sender, recipient or packet contents," > I ALSO FAVOR AN EXEMPTION FOR SMALL ISPS. I don't know exactly where > "small" ends, but if the ISP is independent and serving its community > well, I wouldn't bind it to network neutrality rules so strict that > it would put the ISP out of business. > > As I say, I've told Brett this many times, but he never seems to > remember. So I do hope you'll publish this to inform the readers > of the comment of his that you just published. > > David I > ------------------ > 203-661-4798 (main number, follows me everywhere) > 888-isen.com (toll free) > 508-548-5924 (Woods Hole) > AIM, Skype, Y!IM: david_isenberg > http://isen.com/blog > http://freedom-to-connect.net > ------------------ > > On Jun 7, 2009, at 5:03 PM, David Farber wrote: > >> >> >> Begin forwarded message: >> >> From: Brett Glass >> Date: June 7, 2009 4:44:15 PM EDT >> To: dave@farber.net, "ip" >> Subject: Re: [IP] It's the Internet Stupid >> >> http://itstheinternetstupid.com/ >> >> Dave, and everyone: >> >> Note that this comment to the FCC contains a plea that the FCC >> prohibit network management by Internet providers. To wit, it asks >> the agency to "prohibit discriminatory or preferential treatment >> of packets based on sender, recipient or packet contents." >> >> Sounds good on the surface -- unless one understands its full >> implications. >> >> Since the information identifying (among other things) the >> protocol being used is part of the packet contents, this would >> make it impossible to prioritize time-sensitive traffic. >> >> Likewise, if providers could not route packets to a more direct >> connection or send them at a higher speed when they were bound to >> or from specific addresses, it would be impossible for a content >> or service provider which required enhanced performance (e.g. low >> latency or jitter) to pay a surcharge for higher quality of >> service. This restriction (which would be the equivalent of >> prohibiting UPS from offering "red," "blue," and "ground" service) >> would kill innovation by precluding cutting edge technologies from >> ever seeing the light of day. It would also effectively outlaw >> content delivery networks. >> >> The comment likewise pays homage to competition, but ignores the >> fact that the regulation it recommends would fall most heavily on >> competitive providers and likely would force them out of business, >> creating a duopoly. >> >> There seem to be quite a few people who, perhaps due to >> fearmongering by lobbyists for large corporations, seem bound and >> determined to straitjacket the Internet with regulations. Alas, >> they apparently forget that the Internet could not have existed >> were it not originally designed as a loose federation of networks, >> each of which was subject to DIFFERENT acceptable use policies and >> management strategies. (Were it not designed this way, educational >> institutions, government agencies, and private companies could not >> have signed on, because no one set of policies could have fit all >> of them.) >> >> They also appear to forget that the best way to discourage >> something is to regulate it. If the signatories on this statement >> truly wish to see universal broadband deployment, they must not >> "monkey wrench" this goal by hobbling the rollout of new >> technologies and prohibiting innovation. >> >> --Brett Glass, LARIAT >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------- >> > > > > > > ------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Mon Jun 8 15:40:28 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKX00201QNB99@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 15:40:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKX00201QN88Z@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Mon, 08 Jun 2009 15:40:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKX00L01CV3BO@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 10:42:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KKX00ERMCV3Y0@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 10:42:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EE561AFC for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 10:49:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77B23369C for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 10:49:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2FB13F11 for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 10:45:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (JACKFRUIT.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.201.16]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E3643F0F for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 10:45:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n58EjQfh003858 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 10:45:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 10:45:25 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: It's the Internet Stupid To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.201.16 X-Listbox-UUID: 02EBEDF0-543B-11DE-97C3-0F18BDDB0776 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <93F4C2F3D19A03439EAC16D47C591DDE2259EC07@suex07-mbx-08.ad.syr.edu> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 I agree!!!!! djf Begin forwarded message: From: Lee W McKnight Date: June 8, 2009 10:07:49 AM EDT To: "dave@farber.net" Subject: RE: [IP] It's the Internet Stupid David, For IP list if you wish: David Isenberg says he favors DISCRIMATORY treatment of large ISPs vs small ISPs. To extrapolate, logically, we therefore want a new bureau at FCC regulating large and small - because if small has privileges, we can guess medium and large firms will look for ways to enjoy them too; and FCC will need a process and labor force to oversee the line. Makes sense, I am afraid, from an NN perspective - but looks to me like it could stupidly force 1930s class of service telco regs on the Internet through a 'neutral' door. No thanks. With all due respect to my colleagues and friends co-signing with David, this is the policy mistake made when too many people confuse a lobbying slogan for a policy debate. Lee McKnight Syracuse University ________________________________________ From: David Farber [dave@farber.net] Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 7:20 AM To: ip Subject: [IP] It's the Internet Stupid As is often the case, the devil is in the details. djf Begin forwarded message: From: "David S. Isenberg (isen)" Date: June 7, 2009 5:41:01 PM EDT To: dave@farber.net Subject: Re: [IP] Re: It's the Internet Stupid Dave, For IP per your judgement. I'm one of the primary perpetrators of http://ItsTheInternetStupid.com I've told Brett many times, and I'd like to say it again publicly, that even though I favor, "prohibit[ing] discriminatory or preferential treatment of packets based on sender, recipient or packet contents," I ALSO FAVOR AN EXEMPTION FOR SMALL ISPS. I don't know exactly where "small" ends, but if the ISP is independent and serving its community well, I wouldn't bind it to network neutrality rules so strict that it would put the ISP out of business. As I say, I've told Brett this many times, but he never seems to remember. So I do hope you'll publish this to inform the readers of the comment of his that you just published. David I ------------------ 203-661-4798 (main number, follows me everywhere) 888-isen.com (toll free) 508-548-5924 (Woods Hole) AIM, Skype, Y!IM: david_isenberg http://isen.com/blog http://freedom-to-connect.net ------------------ On Jun 7, 2009, at 5:03 PM, David Farber wrote: > > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Brett Glass > Date: June 7, 2009 4:44:15 PM EDT > To: dave@farber.net, "ip" > Subject: Re: [IP] It's the Internet Stupid > > http://itstheinternetstupid.com/ > > Dave, and everyone: > > Note that this comment to the FCC contains a plea that the FCC > prohibit network management by Internet providers. To wit, it asks > the agency to "prohibit discriminatory or preferential treatment of > packets based on sender, recipient or packet contents." > > Sounds good on the surface -- unless one understands its full > implications. > > Since the information identifying (among other things) the protocol > being used is part of the packet contents, this would make it > impossible to prioritize time-sensitive traffic. > > Likewise, if providers could not route packets to a more direct > connection or send them at a higher speed when they were bound to or > from specific addresses, it would be impossible for a content or > service provider which required enhanced performance (e.g. low > latency or jitter) to pay a surcharge for higher quality of service. > This restriction (which would be the equivalent of prohibiting UPS > from offering "red," "blue," and "ground" service) would kill > innovation by precluding cutting edge technologies from ever seeing > the light of day. It would also effectively outlaw content delivery > networks. > > The comment likewise pays homage to competition, but ignores the > fact that the regulation it recommends would fall most heavily on > competitive providers and likely would force them out of business, > creating a duopoly. > > There seem to be quite a few people who, perhaps due to > fearmongering by lobbyists for large corporations, seem bound and > determined to straitjacket the Internet with regulations. Alas, they > apparently forget that the Internet could not have existed were it > not originally designed as a loose federation of networks, each of > which was subject to DIFFERENT acceptable use policies and > management strategies. (Were it not designed this way, educational > institutions, government agencies, and private companies could not > have signed on, because no one set of policies could have fit all of > them.) > > They also appear to forget that the best way to discourage something > is to regulate it. If the signatories on this statement truly wish > to see universal broadband deployment, they must not "monkey wrench" > this goal by hobbling the rollout of new technologies and > prohibiting innovation. > > --Brett Glass, LARIAT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Mon Jun 8 15:40:29 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKX00201QNB99@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 15:40:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKX00201QN88Z@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Mon, 08 Jun 2009 15:40:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKX00M01DU3Z1@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 11:03:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KKX00L6ZDU2MA@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 11:03:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 437FB19A5 for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 11:10:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 349052A1C for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 11:10:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BAD18F2 for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 11:06:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by a-lb-mx-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 272B88F0 for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 11:06:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n58F6Nix008388 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 11:06:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 11:06:22 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: It's the Internet Stupid To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: F06B2170-543D-11DE-B43B-D26FE09AFA6F X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <000001c9e849$8ae83460$a0b89d20$@net> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: "Suresh Ramasubramanian" Date: June 8, 2009 10:58:05 AM EDT To: , "'Lee W McKnight'" Subject: RE: [IP] Re: It's the Internet Stupid Wonderful .. I agree with you, Lee (and funnily enough I found myself agreeing with Milton Mueller on one of his articles on circleid not too long back). Well, if people on totally opposite sides of a whole lot of debates can find themselves agreeing on this .. I think we're on to as broad a consensus as you're ever going to get Confusing lobbying slogans and serious policy - yes, that'd be the point of a much longer rant I sent to IP on this, that didn't get forwarded (well, because it was a rant, I guess, with examples of similar "policy initiatives" over the last few years). So thanks a lot for making my point for me. srs -----Original Message----- From: David Farber [mailto:dave@farber.net] Sent: Monday, 8 June 2009 20:15 To: ip Subject: [IP] Re: It's the Internet Stupid I agree!!!!! djf Begin forwarded message: From: Lee W McKnight Date: June 8, 2009 10:07:49 AM EDT To: "dave@farber.net" Subject: RE: [IP] It's the Internet Stupid David, For IP list if you wish: David Isenberg says he favors DISCRIMATORY treatment of large ISPs vs small ISPs. To extrapolate, logically, we therefore want a new bureau at FCC regulating large and small - because if small has privileges, we can guess medium and large firms will look for ways to enjoy them too; and FCC will need a process and labor force to oversee the line. Makes sense, I am afraid, from an NN perspective - but looks to me like it could stupidly force 1930s class of service telco regs on the Internet through a 'neutral' door. No thanks. With all due respect to my colleagues and friends co-signing with David, this is the policy mistake made when too many people confuse a lobbying slogan for a policy debate. Lee McKnight Syracuse University ________________________________________ From: David Farber [dave@farber.net] Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 7:20 AM To: ip Subject: [IP] It's the Internet Stupid As is often the case, the devil is in the details. djf Begin forwarded message: From: "David S. Isenberg (isen)" Date: June 7, 2009 5:41:01 PM EDT To: dave@farber.net Subject: Re: [IP] Re: It's the Internet Stupid Dave, For IP per your judgement. I'm one of the primary perpetrators of http://ItsTheInternetStupid.com I've told Brett many times, and I'd like to say it again publicly, that even though I favor, "prohibit[ing] discriminatory or preferential treatment of packets based on sender, recipient or packet contents," I ALSO FAVOR AN EXEMPTION FOR SMALL ISPS. I don't know exactly where "small" ends, but if the ISP is independent and serving its community well, I wouldn't bind it to network neutrality rules so strict that it would put the ISP out of business. As I say, I've told Brett this many times, but he never seems to remember. So I do hope you'll publish this to inform the readers of the comment of his that you just published. David I ------------------ 203-661-4798 (main number, follows me everywhere) 888-isen.com (toll free) 508-548-5924 (Woods Hole) AIM, Skype, Y!IM: david_isenberg http://isen.com/blog http://freedom-to-connect.net ------------------ On Jun 7, 2009, at 5:03 PM, David Farber wrote: > > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Brett Glass > Date: June 7, 2009 4:44:15 PM EDT > To: dave@farber.net, "ip" > Subject: Re: [IP] It's the Internet Stupid > > http://itstheinternetstupid.com/ > > Dave, and everyone: > > Note that this comment to the FCC contains a plea that the FCC > prohibit network management by Internet providers. To wit, it asks > the agency to "prohibit discriminatory or preferential treatment of > packets based on sender, recipient or packet contents." > > Sounds good on the surface -- unless one understands its full > implications. > > Since the information identifying (among other things) the protocol > being used is part of the packet contents, this would make it > impossible to prioritize time-sensitive traffic. > > Likewise, if providers could not route packets to a more direct > connection or send them at a higher speed when they were bound to or > from specific addresses, it would be impossible for a content or > service provider which required enhanced performance (e.g. low > latency or jitter) to pay a surcharge for higher quality of service. > This restriction (which would be the equivalent of prohibiting UPS > from offering "red," "blue," and "ground" service) would kill > innovation by precluding cutting edge technologies from ever seeing > the light of day. It would also effectively outlaw content delivery > networks. > > The comment likewise pays homage to competition, but ignores the > fact that the regulation it recommends would fall most heavily on > competitive providers and likely would force them out of business, > creating a duopoly. > > There seem to be quite a few people who, perhaps due to > fearmongering by lobbyists for large corporations, seem bound and > determined to straitjacket the Internet with regulations. Alas, they > apparently forget that the Internet could not have existed were it > not originally designed as a loose federation of networks, each of > which was subject to DIFFERENT acceptable use policies and > management strategies. (Were it not designed this way, educational > institutions, government agencies, and private companies could not > have signed on, because no one set of policies could have fit all of > them.) > > They also appear to forget that the best way to discourage something > is to regulate it. If the signatories on this statement truly wish > to see universal broadband deployment, they must not "monkey wrench" > this goal by hobbling the rollout of new technologies and > prohibiting innovation. > > --Brett Glass, LARIAT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Mon Jun 8 22:15:01 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKY00F018WTYD@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 22:14:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKY00F018WPY8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Mon, 08 Jun 2009 22:14:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKX00301R1UHR@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 15:49:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KKX001DAR1U6I@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 15:49:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.38]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE9733052 for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 15:55:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A15BA2099 for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 15:55:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1FDF39A6 for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 15:52:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21CD239A5 for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 15:52:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n58Jq0pZ003280 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 15:52:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 15:52:00 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] China to require software on PCs to block sites To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <5048DC4D-6F61-4636-9C01-2AF6811C8383@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: D70E62E6-5465-11DE-8307-53EFBCDB0776 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090608083830.023e23e8@well.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Ellen Ullman Date: June 8, 2009 11:39:46 AM EDT To: dave@farber.net Subject: China to require software on PCs to block sites Dave, For IP, if you wish: From the Reuters site: http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSTRE5570DF20090608 -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Mon Jun 8 22:15:01 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKY00F018WTYD@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 22:14:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKY00F018WPY8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Mon, 08 Jun 2009 22:14:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKX00401RH3HU@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 15:58:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KKX0038WRH31L@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 15:58:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (unknown [208.72.237.63]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23647181F for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 16:04:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by d-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0366B204C for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 16:04:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92AE5AF4 for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 16:00:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (JACKFRUIT.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.201.16]) by a-lb-mx-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BE33AF3 for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 16:00:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.106] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n58K0Vdh023203 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 16:00:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 16:00:30 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] China Squeezes PC Makers To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <9D53A9D9-A70A-46E2-B7DB-7AF4BE4757A6@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_BgysD9qGz8vnyfo5BGGEPQ)" X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.201.16 X-Listbox-UUID: 08181926-5467-11DE-A117-D03446FDDA80 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <00d301c9e83d$5f08a160$1d19e420$@frankston.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_BgysD9qGz8vnyfo5BGGEPQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Begin forwarded message: =46rom: "Bob Frankston" Date: June 8, 2009 9:31:02 AM EDT To: "'Lauren Weinstein'" , Subject: China Squeezes PC Makers I found more background from Rebecca MacKinnon=92s site http://rconversation.blogs.com/rconversation/2009/06/chinas-green-dam= -youth-escort-software.html perhaps it is indeed similar to the US efforts to block access in = =20 libraries or the Australian efforts. As we=92ve seen such software ca= n =20 be very problematic no matter who noble or otherwise the intentions a= re. China told personal-computer makers they must ship Web-blocking =20 software with new PCs as of July 1, enabling censorship and creating = a =20 dilemma for the manufacturers. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124440211524192081.html The government, which has told global PC makers of the requirement bu= t =20 has yet to announce it to the public, says the effort is aimed at = =20 protecting young people from "harmful" content. The primary target is= =20 pornography, says the main developer of the software, a company that = =20 has ties to China's security ministry and military. China's Ministry of Industry and Information Technology didn't respon= d =20 to requests for comment. =85 ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_BgysD9qGz8vnyfo5BGGEPQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

Begin for= warded message:

From: "Bob Frankston" <Bob19-0501@bobf.frankston.com>
Date: June 8, 20= 09 9:31:02 AM EDT
To: "'Lauren Weinstein'" <lauren@vortex.com>, <dave@farber.net>
Subject: China Squeezes PC Makers

I foun= d more background from Rebecca MacKinnon=92s site
 
=
 
perhaps= it is indeed similar to the US efforts to block access in libraries = or the Australian efforts. As we=92ve seen such software can be very = problematic no matter who noble or otherwise the intentions are.=
 
<= span lang=3D"EN" style=3D"font-size: 14pt; font-family: 'Times New Ro= man', serif; "> 
= China told personal-computer makers they must ship Web-blocking softw= are with new PCs as of July 1, enabling censorship and creating a dil= emma for the manufacturers.
 
 

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--Boundary_(ID_BgysD9qGz8vnyfo5BGGEPQ)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Mon Jun 8 22:15:02 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKY00F018WTYD@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 22:14:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKY00F018WPY8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Mon, 08 Jun 2009 22:14:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKX00601SH6Q6@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 16:20:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KKX00624SH6DG@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 16:19:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.38]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFF993E5D for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 16:26:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C97193E00 for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 16:26:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48A49C49 for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 16:25:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (JACKFRUIT.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.201.16]) by a-lb-mx-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E409BC48 for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 16:25:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n58KP9L3023851 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 16:25:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 16:25:09 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] The iPhone 3G S (I have never been less excited djf) To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <035DEFB4-5BEE-493F-A4D9-085D1C039910@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_toldPylI4mYF1w9juTpK4Q)" X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.201.16 X-Listbox-UUID: 78E50A44-546A-11DE-A2B7-AC476B86FCB0 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_toldPylI4mYF1w9juTpK4Q) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT http://www.mobilecrunch.com/2009/06/08/official-the-iphone-3gs/#more-14182 Update: Remember how last year AT&T let current iPhone owners upgrade without penalty. Yeah, not going to happen this time around. From the iPhone product page down in the fine print: Requires new two-year AT&T wireless service contract, sold separately to qualified customers; credit check required; must be 18 or older. For non-qualified customers, including existing AT&T customers who want to upgrade from another phone or replace an iPhone 3G, the price with a new two-year agreement is $499 (8GB), $599 (16GB), or $699 (32GB). ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_toldPylI4mYF1w9juTpK4Q) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

http://www.mobilecrunch.com/2009/06/08/official-the-iphone= -3gs/#more-14182


Updat= e: Remember how last year AT&T let current iPhone owners= upgrade without penalty. Yeah, not going to happen this time around.=

From the iPhone product = page down in the fine print:

Requires ne= w two-year AT&T wireless service contract, sold separately to qua= lified customers; credit check required; must be 18 or older. For non= -qualified customers, including existing AT&T customers who want = to upgrade from another phone or replace an iPhone 3G, the price with= a new two-year agreement is $499 (8GB), $599 (16GB), or $699 (32GB).=

Archives
--Boundary_(ID_toldPylI4mYF1w9juTpK4Q)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Mon Jun 8 22:15:02 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKY00F018WTYD@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 22:14:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKY00F018WPY8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Mon, 08 Jun 2009 22:14:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKX00801T8YDA@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 16:36:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KKX003GUT8Y1L@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 16:36:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (unknown [208.72.237.63]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADEB91EE1 for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 16:43:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by d-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 945D9252F for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 16:43:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7461D3CD5 for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 16:39:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAB083CD4 for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 16:39:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n58KdNlL005728 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 16:39:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 16:39:19 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] The iPhone 3G S (I have never been less excited djf) To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <778DED9F-7D28-4DA0-BBFB-4905A4DA2F25@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 74D5FFA6-546C-11DE-A0D4-5E4BBDDB0776 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 http://www.mobilecrunch.com/2009/06/08/official-the-iphone-3gs/#more-14182 Update: Remember how last year AT&T let current iPhone owners upgrade without penalty. Yeah, not going to happen this time around. From the iPhone product page down in the fine print: Requires new two-year AT&T wireless service contract, sold separately to qualified customers; credit check required; must be 18 or older. For non-qualified customers, including existing AT&T customers who want to upgrade from another phone or replace an iPhone 3G, the price with a new two-year agreement is $499 (8GB), $599 (16GB), or $699 (32GB). -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Mon Jun 8 22:15:03 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKY00F018WTYD@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 22:14:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKY00F018WPY8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Mon, 08 Jun 2009 22:14:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKX00801TA1DS@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 16:37:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KKX003H3TA11L@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 16:37:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ECF4135F for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 16:43:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC8A33F0A for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 16:43:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 822803CD9 for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 16:40:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9C0C3CD8 for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 16:40:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n58KdNlM005728 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 16:40:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 16:40:00 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: NY Times: Get the Tech Scuttlebutt! (It Might Even Be True.) To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_SUbWE5WLQfFlDRRNdVrCSA)" X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 8A4BCA46-546C-11DE-846B-9A4CBDDB0776 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <0b1701c9e872$0f1cef00$2d56cd00$@com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_SUbWE5WLQfFlDRRNdVrCSA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Begin forwarded message: =46rom: "Amy Wohl" Date: June 8, 2009 3:48:12 PM EDT To: Subject: RE: [IP] NY Times: Get the Tech Scuttlebutt! (It Might Even = =20 Be True.) Dave, Bloggers are not created equal any more than journalists (Pulitzer = =20 Prize winners are a lot different than the guy who writes the obits o= r =20 the gossip column). And weekly country papers don=92t have the =20 resources or the guidelines of the New York Times. The problem is, bloggers don=92t seem to have rules. Some of us come= =20 out of formal backgrounds =96 you need sources (even if you can=92t r= eveal =20 them); opinions must be plainly noted as opinions not facts; =20 speculation is fine as long as it=92s clear that you=92re thinking (o= r =20 dreaming) out loud. Other bloggers, drawn by the heat of the moment and the ease of =20 blogging (and it is and should be easy to blog) write whatever they = =20 please without understanding that on the web everyone can see it and = =20 it will stay there (on your blog or somewhere else) forever. You bea= r =20 some responsibility for the words that appear over your name. We=92ll never get this entirely sorted out (even the big papers have = =20 their occasional scandals), but we do need some rules. I would =20 recommend for a start: =B7 Of course, anyone can blog. This is a first amendment ri= ght. =B7 Bloggers should understand that their credentials will = =20 ultimately depend on what they write and what people think about it. = =20 Therefore, if you=92re writing a serious blog you might consider = =20 offering your credentials and name (unless that is dangerous for you = =20 and would not permit you to write freely). Anonymous bloggers might = =20 consider offering a reason for why they blog anonymously. =B7 Bloggers need to separate facts, opinions, and =20 speculations. If you don=92t write based on facts, say so. Lots of = =20 people like to read opinions, they just need to know that=92s what= =92s =20 going on. You may write about all three, but in that case, a labelin= g =20 convention is required. =B7 When you are basing what you write on something you read = =20 elsewhere, give credit; better yet, link to the source. The purpose = =20 of being on in is being able to access the original material. Maybe we need to have different names for different kinds of =20 bloggers? After all, we don=92t call gossip columnists or book =20 reviewers =93journalists.=94 We reserve that term for those who rese= arch =20 a story and spend the time to write about it carefully. Often, they = =20 spend long periods of time in a specific area =96 politics, healthcar= e, =20 science, technology =96developing a network of contacts and some leve= l =20 of familiarity, if not expertise, allowing them to identify, develop,= =20 and write their stories. There are bloggers who do that. We need to give them credit (and = =20 credence) while enjoying other blogs for what they are. It=92s fun t= o =20 gossip and speculate; it=92s just not news. Amy D. Wohl Editor, Amy Wohl's Opinions 40 Old Lancaster Road, #608 Merion, Station, PA 19066 610-667-4842 amy@wohl.com www.wohl.com =46rom: David Farber [mailto:dave@farber.net] Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 6:44 PM To: ip Subject: [IP] NY Times: Get the Tech Scuttlebutt! (It Might Even Be = =20 True.) Begin forwarded message: =46rom: "Jonathan B Spira" Date: June 7, 2009 5:48:56 PM EDT To: David Farber Subject: NY Times: Get the Tech Scuttlebutt! (It Might Even Be True.) Dave The New York Times' coverage of rumor-mongering in blogs is perhaps = =20 well intentioned but ultimately the article is as flawed as the =20 concept of printing words masquerading as news articles without the = =20 benefit of fact checking. The fact that the writers of posts around the possibility of Apple = =20 purchasing Twitter (which was completely unfounded) suspected the = =20 story was false and they didn't care does little to advance the cause= =20 of bloggers. The fact that the Times journalist, Damon Darlin, seems= =20 to celebrate news gathering without fact checking - given recent = =20 events in the New York Times' own history - is irresponsible. Bloggers (whatever that term actually means right now) claim they wan= t =20 to be recognized as a form of legitimate media but a formal admission= =20 that "'Getting it right is expensive' [but] 'Getting it first is = =20 cheap'" is the m.o. does little to advance the cause. Article is at http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/07/business/media/07ping= .html?hpw Regards/Mit freundlichen Gr=FC=DFen/Sz=EDv=E9lyes =FCdv=F6zlet/Cordia= lement/=20 Cordiali saluti/Saludos/V=E4nliga h=E4lsningar /s/ Jonathan Jonathan B. Spira CEO and Chief Analyst Basex, Inc. 8 www.basex.com Archives=20 --Boundary_(ID_SUbWE5WLQfFlDRRNdVrCSA) Content-type: image/jpeg; x-unix-mode=0666; name=feed-icon-10x10.jpg Content-transfer-encoding: BASE64 Content-disposition: inline; filename=feed-icon-10x10.jpg /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQEARwBHAAD/2wBDAAYEBAQFBAYFBQYJBgUGCQsIBgYICwwK CgsKCgwQDAwMDAwMEAwODxAPDgwTExQUExMcGxsbHCAgICAgICAgICD/2wBDAQcH Bw0MDRgQEBgaFREVGiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICD/wAARCAAKAAoDAREAAhEBAxEB/8QAFgABAQEAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAABgAH/8QAIRAAAgEEAgIDAAAAAAAAAAAAAQIDBAUREgAhBiIxMkH/xAAX AQADAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABQYE/8QAJBEAAQQBAwMFAAAAAAAAAAAAAQIDESEA BDFBEnGBEzJRYbH/2gAMAwEAAhEDEQA/ANZttioqi0QtUJpVzfWpOyuWkk0V29mW RDIwUnAIzyUb06XWxO558xO9iaOxGVLupUhwx7Rx47UYvkHCRv1dETEZpEKeum7D GOsYz+cwy4Kk19409BBuBl5AStXOqnVVkdVA6AAb4HBVLMfJ/cNPaB2xXabTapLV RySUcDu8EbMzRoSSUGSTjjtppPSKG2Jn31hZs7nnP//Z --Boundary_(ID_SUbWE5WLQfFlDRRNdVrCSA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT --Boundary_(ID_SUbWE5WLQfFlDRRNdVrCSA) Content-type: image/jpeg; x-unix-mode=0666; name=listbox-logo-small.jpg Content-transfer-encoding: BASE64 Content-disposition: inline; filename=listbox-logo-small.jpg /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQEASABIAAD/2wBDAAcEBAQFBAcFBQcKBwUHCgwJBwcJDA0L CwwLCw0RDQ0NDQ0NEQ0PEBEQDw0UFBYWFBQeHR0dHiIiIiIiIiIiIiL/2wBDAQgH Bw0MDRgQEBgaFREVGiAgICAgICAgICAgICAhICAgICAgISEhICAgISEhISEhISEi IiIiIiIiIiIiIiIiIiL/wAARCAAXAG4DAREAAhEBAxEB/8QAGwAAAgIDAQAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAEDBAIFBgj/xAA1EAACAQMDAgQDAw0AAAAAAAABAgMABBEFEiETMQYU IjIjQVFCYYEHFRckNkNSVHORlLTT/8QAGQEBAAMBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQF /8QAJxEAAgEDAgUEAwAAAAAAAAAAAAECAxESBCETIjFBUTJCgfAUscH/2gAMAwEA AhEDEQA/APSNAFAFAFAFAFAU9X1aw0mxe/v5OlaxlQ77WbBdgi8KCfcwqrkkCI+I NKUOTLxHI0L+lvenuHb5VzVddSp+p2+GUdRItJdWzwLMrDpvjax471vTqxklJdGX TuZtLCrqjMA7+1c8nH0rQElARRXMErOI3VzGxRwDnDD5GoyQJakBQHKeT8Rx3F7q FuG3xTXJijZpGMqnIRRExCBR3GO+K5cZXbK7g2reK42zDC89uS+yR4CkhESo/qTj G/1ovHfFQ51PAuwfUvGQlX4f7gPs6Tcs0bMRkIw3I+BgsPxzTKpcXYPfeM45wqL1 sQ7wDEVDsY2Y5wpClX2qBvFMql/gXY0OsS6HrbnzL3Dj9WLI8Tk+XTPTTA+1kcDk 05sZdfqA5dU8RRpHyT5i4a1gaSPpv6gpWUoe2zEg++pyn/CLsX5V/wBhbz+raf7c VX1HoJl0KkkTpPewz2l6SbyeZHhgLoyyYxzx/DXl6vSqrtLLZvsYzhfyWvEjRp4V sWYNHGt3aZ6y7GHxl9wPauzhqnRivFjS3KTatqqPrmnGxkt5N0N5iY7XUOiKR6xy o+taTnzRtbv+izZpZ9Y1G6srHr6i8VzDqMcN4+IumGaPdwyehkHcZ/HmsnUbtv7i rY4tTvLC81Ka1vEDjVVU2JVS03U2ITn3duePpVVO0nv7ib7lweI9Va/WQ3K7n1Br FtL2ruSIEjqZ924Ab89q040r7+ehN2WPDOuajqV9Pb3V0CluvwWRQvmV3keYGfs8 beOM1alWbb7hM6quwsFAFAFAFAYPFE0iuyguntbHIzxxQFXWNH0/WNPk0/UI+rZy 46iZK52kOvKkHggVEo3DNT+jbwd/Ky/5V1/1rL8eP1kYo3FvpOnwWMdgsQa0jGEj kzJ27cvuJ/GtcUSZJpunRrtjt4lXnACKBz7v7/OowQENM04W/llto/L5z0gi7c/X HamCA/zfYdUT9CPqryJNi7hnvg96KCAzY2ZnNwYI+uw2tJtG4r9Ce9MUBixtPTiF BsXYnpHC/QfdU2B//9k= --Boundary_(ID_SUbWE5WLQfFlDRRNdVrCSA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.43/2139 - Release Date: 06/07/09 05:53:00 ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_SUbWE5WLQfFlDRRNdVrCSA)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Mon Jun 8 22:15:03 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKY00F018WTYD@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 22:14:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKY00F018WPY8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Mon, 08 Jun 2009 22:14:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKX00G01WDR77@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 17:44:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KKX00BT9WDRH4@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 17:44:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCEE81CB1 for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 17:50:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF5953023 for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 17:50:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 766C0537 for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 17:47:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by a-lb-mx-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 754DF535 for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 17:47:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n58Ll5OB011325 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 17:47:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 17:47:05 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: It's the Internet Stupid To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <8F32F0F2-7B4D-49EF-B1C1-77500DECBD19@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: E9FF47DE-5475-11DE-A412-BF0E7CE1E577 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <4A2D7DEA.5000202@reed.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: "David P. Reed" Date: June 8, 2009 5:08:58 PM EDT To: dave@farber.net Cc: ip Subject: Re: [IP] Re: It's the Internet Stupid As a matter of technical accuracy, I respond to the following false statements from Brett Glass. Brett Glass wrote: > Since the information identifying (among other things) the protocol > being used is part of the packet contents, this would make it > impossible to prioritize time-sensitive traffic. The protocol being used is not part of the packet contents. The protocol is specified in the IP header, in an 8 bit field that specifies TCP, UDP, or ICMP, among other choices. But in addition, the "time sensitivity" of IP packets is defined to be specified in the field of the IP datagram header called TOS. This 8 bit field was chosen to specify this for a very important design reason, too. Since new applications appear on the Internet every day, if not every minute, it would be an extremely *bad* choice to require routers and switches to understand every new application level protocols' needs - it would cause innovation to come to a complete HALT in the Internet. (to be completely fair to Brett, the refusal by ISPs to agree to implement TOS, and to agree to support all protocol numbers (not just TCP, IP, and ICMP) has hampered innovation already. But it seems like a weak argument that failure of ISPs to implement standards should be cause to pile non-standard, innovation-inhibiting kludges into the system. There is no "ruleset" that is acknowledged as correct in identifying which packets deserve priority treatment based on examination of "content"). The use of the word "impossible" should be a clue to the weakness of this claim. If prioritization can be achieved by implementing TOS, then the word impossible is wrong. > > Likewise, if providers could not route packets to a more direct > connection or send them at a higher speed when they were bound to or > from specific addresses, it would be impossible for a content or > service provider which required enhanced performance (e.g. low > latency or jitter) to pay a surcharge for higher quality of service. > This restriction (which would be the equivalent of prohibiting UPS > from offering "red," "blue," and "ground" service) would kill > innovation by precluding cutting edge technologies from ever seeing > the light of day. It would also effectively outlaw content delivery > networks. > The document Glass is commenting says nothing whatever about routing of packets to more direct connections or sending them at higher speed. All it says is that such decisions should not be based on who the sender is, who the receiver is, or what the content is. Basing such decisions on what the sender *requests*, what the receiver *requests*, or what class of service the sender or receiver have *paid for* (or any other decision criterion not listed) would not be proscribed by words in the document. Again the word "impossible" is just wrong. A sender can make a request of more or less priority for a specific set of traffic in many ways, for example, both based on current standards (TOS, TIA1039, ...) or by standards yet to be invented (such standards are invented all the time - for example RSVP was invented a number of years ago, though it is not widely implemented). I'd suggest that the discussion would be enhanced if discussants were to based their comments on technical facts, rather than strawman assertions of "impossibility". -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Jun 9 07:11:11 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKY00A01XQJ27@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 07:11:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKY00A01XQG20@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 09 Jun 2009 07:11:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKY00401HLQBR@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 01:22:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KKY000QZHLQJP@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 01:22:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.38]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47E133CE4 for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 01:29:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 314D22697 for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 01:29:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9F032ED03 for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 01:25:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDA102ED02 for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 01:25:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n595PZcd003854 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 01:25:35 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 01:25:34 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] 1984 published 60 years ago today To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: F7F70C56-54B5-11DE-B31E-B06A15B0A937 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <65B654D2-67D9-47C9-8E09-3211409099D0@infowarrior.org> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Richard Forno Date: June 8, 2009 11:49:04 PM EDT To: Infowarrior List Cc: Dave Farber Subject: 1984 published 60 years ago today (c/o Anonymous) Nineteen Eighty-Four Author George Orwell Publisher Secker and Warburg (London) Publication date 8 June 1949 Nineteen Eighty-Four (sometimes abbreviated to 1984) is a classic dystopian novel by English author George Orwell. Published in 1949, it is set in the eponymous year and focuses on a repressive, totalitarian regime. The story follows the life of one seemingly insignificant man, Winston Smith, a civil servant assigned the task of perpetuating the regime's propaganda by falsifying records and political literature. Smith grows disillusioned with his meager existence and so begins a rebellion against the system that leads to his arrest and torture. The novel has become famous for its portrayal of pervasive government surveillance and control, and government's increasing encroachment on the rights of the individual. Since its publication, many of its terms and concepts, such as "Big Brother", "doublethink", and "Newspeak" have entered the popular vernacular. The word "Orwellian" itself has come to refer to anything reminiscent of the book's fictional regime. -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Jun 9 07:11:12 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKY00A01XQJ27@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 07:11:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKY00A01XQG20@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 09 Jun 2009 07:11:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKY00401HOLWS@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 01:24:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-fastnet.listbox.com (zeppo.pobox.com [207.8.214.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KKY0044ZHOKFZ@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 01:24:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77F528A6 for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 01:31:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 818137EC for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 01:29:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (JACKFRUIT.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.201.16]) by a-lb-mx-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90D627EB for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 01:29:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n595TLkh013888 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 01:29:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 01:29:21 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] CDT on ICANN independence and accountability To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_SIxgU0uYJ7PoJmaRnkhBfQ)" X-Priority: 3 X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.201.16 X-Listbox-UUID: 7E9C8876-54B6-11DE-832D-8D5097DEA54E X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <8AEB649395E640EF8BDE2F9A143DD4EB@LENOVOF4613BD9> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_SIxgU0uYJ7PoJmaRnkhBfQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Begin forwarded message: From: "davidr.johnson" Date: June 8, 2009 8:43:34 PM EDT To: "Dave & GG Farber" Subject: CDT on ICANN independence and accountability Dave -- for ip if you wish. CDT today filed comments in the Department of Commerce Notice of Inquiry regarding the future of ICANN. http://blog.cdt.org/2009/06/08/narrow-mission-consensus-based-processes-critical-to-icanns-future/ drj ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_SIxgU0uYJ7PoJmaRnkhBfQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

Begin for= warded message:

From: "davidr.johnson" <davidr.johnson@verizon.net>
= Date: June 8, 2009 8:= 43:34 PM EDT
To: "Dave & GG Farber" <dave@farber.net>
Subject: <= font face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica"><= b>CDT on ICANN independence and accountability

Dave -- for ip if you wish. CD= T today filed comments in the Department of Commerce Notice of Inquir= y regarding the future of ICANN.
 
 =
drj

Archives
--Boundary_(ID_SIxgU0uYJ7PoJmaRnkhBfQ)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Wed Jun 10 15:56:15 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL100601GPNL6@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:56:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL100601GPJKV@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:56:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKZ002017N2NM@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 10:45:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KKZ0018L7N1EA@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 10:45:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (unknown [208.72.237.63]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 188C310FA for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 10:51:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by d-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D35E21FF for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 10:51:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 672DB2E2CA for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 10:48:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (JACKFRUIT.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.201.16]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72FAA2E2C9 for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 10:48:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.106] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n59Elwv2010052 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 10:47:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 10:47:57 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] "Mad Avenue Blues, The Year the Media Died" To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <333BC543-B668-4D4B-9197-D0B053AE9C55@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.201.16 X-Listbox-UUID: 88C2BE3A-5504-11DE-BE28-F486C44432C8 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <20090609141953.GA16081@vortex.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Lauren Weinstein Date: June 9, 2009 10:19:53 AM EDT To: dave@farber.net Subject: "Mad Avenue Blues, The Year the Media Died" Dave, I just stumbled across this new parody to the tune of "American Pie" (a song that got my own parody treatment decades ago ...) It's a delightful look at how New Media is decimating Old Media -- I mean the video is delightful, not necessarily the decimation. "Mad Avenue Blues, The Year the Media Died" (to "American Pie") http://bit.ly/XrfXw --Lauren-- Lauren Weinstein lauren@vortex.com Tel: +1 (818) 225-2800 http://www.pfir.org/lauren Co-Founder, PFIR - People For Internet Responsibility - http://www.pfir.org Co-Founder, NNSquad - Network Neutrality Squad - http://www.nnsquad.org Founder, GCTIP - Global Coalition for Transparent Internet Performance - http://www.gctip.org Founder, PRIVACY Forum - http://www.vortex.com Member, ACM Committee on Computers and Public Policy Lauren's Blog: http://lauren.vortex.com Twitter: https://twitter.com/laurenweinstein -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Wed Jun 10 15:56:16 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL100601GPNL6@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:56:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL100601GPJKV@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:56:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKZ00G01BY3HA@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 12:18:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KKZ00APOBY304@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 12:18:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.49]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F29803361 for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 12:24:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E59B12248 for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 12:24:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0E5A3D1 for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 12:20:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by a-lb-mx-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D12063CF for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 12:20:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n59GKtVO011931 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 12:20:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 12:20:15 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: It's the Internet Stupid To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_njMFqQqIHPUylgX2BMv31A)" X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 84059DF6-5511-11DE-80E9-DDB8F8A0299D X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <200906081800.MAA16774@lariat.net> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_njMFqQqIHPUylgX2BMv31A) Content-type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Begin forwarded message: =46rom: Brett Glass Date: June 8, 2009 2:00:47 PM EDT To: dave@farber.net, "ip" Subject: Re: [IP] It's the Internet Stupid At 05:20 AM 6/8/2009, David Isenberg wrote: > I've told Brett many times, and I'd like to say it again publicly, > that even though I favor, "prohibit[ing] discriminatory or =20 > preferential > treatment of packets based on sender, recipient or packet contents,= " > I ALSO FAVOR AN EXEMPTION FOR SMALL ISPS. I don't know exactly wher= e > "small" ends, but if the ISP is independent and serving its communi= ty > well, I wouldn't bind it to network neutrality rules so strict that > it would put the ISP out of business. > > As I say, I've told Brett this many times, but he never seems to > remember. There is a big difference between not remembering and disagreeing. I = =20 have told Mr. Isenberg, just as many times as he has proposed them, = =20 that "carve-outs" for small entities are not an acceptable solution = =20 for at least three reasons. Firstly, the fact that one would immediately have to consider "carve = =20 outs" to avoid obviously bad consequences should set off alarm bells:= =20 it is a sign that the proposed regulation is fundamentally wrong in = =20 its approach and in principle. The simple fact is that networks NEED = =20 to be managed -- and, yes, that means the ability to recognize traffi= c =20 and treat it appropriately. In other words, the network absolutely = =20 must "discriminate" -- in the non-pejorative sense of the term -- to = =20 work well. The Internet protocols were designed, from the very =20 beginning, with provisions for quality of service and policy routing = =20 for this very reason. Secondly, if one starts carving out specific exemptions, the law = =20 begins to look like Swiss cheese -- and is more and more subject to = =20 exceptions that favor large and powerful special interests rather tha= n =20 small operators. Finally, the proposed regulation would be unable to adapt to rapidly = =20 changing or unforeseen circumstances -- and large entities with malig= n =20 intent would be far more able to take advantage of this than small = =20 players. The correct solution is to go back to first principles. No regulation= =20 is needed if we encourage robust, fair competition among providers of= =20 ALL sizes, so that the market can quickly and ably deal with any = =20 practice that consumers find undesirable (including ones not =20 contemplated by the proposed regulation). The only government =20 intervention that is needed at all is the prohibition of =20 anticompetitive practices (which include - but are not limited to - = =20 price squeezing, price gouging in the "middle mile" by ILECs, and = =20 refusal to deal by backbone owners). The onerous "network neutrality" regulation advocated by Mr. Isenberg= =20 isn't actually "neutral" at all. It favors one particular large =20 corporation: Google. A key goal of this regulation is to prevent ISPs= =20 =66rom adding value to bandwidth or to their network or from realizin= g a =20 fair return on their hard work. Google is tirelessly lobbying, both = =20 directly and via a large number of surrogates in DC and elsewhere, to= =20 get such regulation instated by government bodies worldwide. (Its = =20 primary foci, at present, are the US, Canada, and the EU.) For an excellent analysis that explains why Google is lavishing =20 Googlebucks on many individuals and groups which advocate policies = =20 that would undermine both copyright owners and ISPs, see Andrew =20 Orlowski=92s articles at http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/10/15/neutrality_in_europe_analysis= /print.html and http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/01/google_wave/. --Brett Glass ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_njMFqQqIHPUylgX2BMv31A) Content-type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

Begin for= warded message:

From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.n= et>
Date: June 8, 2009 2:00:47 PM EDT
=
Subj= ect: Re: [IP] It's the Internet Stupid
=


At 0= 5:20 AM 6/8/2009, David Isenberg wrote:
 
I've told Brett many times, and = I'd like to say it again publicly,
that even though I favor, "pro= hibit[ing] discriminatory or preferential
treatment of packets ba= sed on sender, recipient or packet contents,"
I ALSO FAVOR AN EXE= MPTION FOR SMALL ISPS. I don't know exactly where
"small" ends, b= ut if the ISP is independent and serving its community
well, I wo= uldn't bind it to network neutrality rules so strict that
it woul= d put the ISP out of business.

As I say, I've told Brett this= many times, but he never seems to
remember.

Th= ere is a big difference between not remembering and disagreeing. I ha= ve told Mr. Isenberg, just as many times as he has proposed them, tha= t "carve-outs" for small entities are not an acceptable solution for = at least three reasons.

Firstly, the fact that one would imme= diately have to consider "carve outs" to avoid obviously bad conseque= nces should set off alarm bells: it is a sign that the proposed regul= ation is fundamentally wrong in its approach and in principle. The si= mple fact is that networks NEED to be managed -- and, yes, that means= the ability to recognize traffic and treat it appropriately. In othe= r words, the network absolutely must "discriminate" -- in the non-pej= orative sense of the term -- to work well. The Internet protocols wer= e designed, from the very beginning, with provisions for quality of s= ervice and policy routing for this very reason.

Secondly, if = one starts carving out specific exemptions, the law begins to look li= ke Swiss cheese -- and is more and more subject to exceptions that fa= vor large and powerful special interests rather than small operators.=

Finally, the proposed regulation would be unable to adapt t= o rapidly changing or unforeseen circumstances -- and large entities = with malign intent would be far more able to take advantage of this t= han small players.

The correct solution is to go back to firs= t principles. No regulation is needed if we encourage robust, fair co= mpetition among providers of ALL sizes, so that the market can quickl= y and ably deal with any practice that consumers find undesirable (in= cluding ones not contemplated by the proposed regulation). The only g= overnment intervention that is needed at all is the prohibition of an= ticompetitive practices (which include =AD- but are not limited to -= =AD price squeezing, price gouging in the "middle mile" by ILECs, and= refusal to deal by backbone owners).

The onerous "network ne= utrality" regulation advocated by Mr. Isenberg isn't actually "neutra= l" at all. It favors one particular large corporation: Google. A key = goal of this regulation is to prevent ISPs from adding value to bandw= idth or to their network or from realizing a fair return on their har= d work. Google is tirelessly lobbying, both directly and via a large = number of surrogates in DC and elsewhere, to get such regulation inst= ated by government bodies worldwide. (Its primary foci, at present, a= re the US, Canada, and the EU.)

For an excellent analysis tha= t explains why Google is lavishing Googlebucks on many individuals an= d groups which advocate policies that would undermine both copyright = owners and ISPs, see Andrew Orlowski=92s articles at

http://www.theregister.co.uk/200= 8/10/15/neutrality_in_europe_analysis/print.html

and
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/01/google_wave/.

= --Brett Glass


Archives
--Boundary_(ID_njMFqQqIHPUylgX2BMv31A)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Wed Jun 10 15:56:17 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL100601GPNL6@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:56:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL100601GPJKV@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:56:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKZ00G01C4JTB@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 12:21:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-fastnet.listbox.com (zeppo.pobox.com [207.8.214.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KKZ00AR5C4J04@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 12:21:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C165AA7B for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 12:28:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 768C636CB for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 12:27:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D877236C9 for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 12:27:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n59GR7L2012852 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 12:27:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 12:27:07 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Levin's Engagement Raises Stake for National Broadband Policy To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <48815CA4-5594-499D-A8C0-35C373B0205E@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 63E8B17E-5512-11DE-8638-5644BDDB0776 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <6F912BD9-FDDB-4D4A-95A5-0FE84755CFBF@warpspeed.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: =46rom: dewayne@warpspeed.com (Dewayne Hendricks) Date: June 9, 2009 11:34:26 AM EDT To: Dewayne-Net Technology List Subject: [Dewayne-Net] Levin's Engagement Raises Stake for National = =20 Broadband Policy LEVIN'S ENGAGEMENT RAISES STAKE FOR NATIONAL BROADBAND POLICY Blair Levin's return to the Federal Communications Commission to help= =20 coordinate its development of a national broadband plan is a =20 significant development for a number of reasons. Levin, the respected= =20 managing director of the investment advisory firm Stifel Nicolaus, wa= s =20 widely seen as a potential FCC chairman himself. His willingness to = =20 serve again at the FCC appears to herald an era of close and collegia= l =20 cooperation among the executive branch agencies responsible for =20 communications policy, and with the FCC. Courtesy of the Benton Foundation RSS Feed: -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Wed Jun 10 15:56:18 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL100601GPNL6@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:56:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL100601GPJKV@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:56:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKZ00D01MCKLQ@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:03:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KKZ00BCWMCKNJ@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:02:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (unknown [208.72.237.63]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A12E21294 for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:09:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by d-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93B902101 for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:09:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60C2BB28 for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:05:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (JACKFRUIT.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.201.16]) by a-lb-mx-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CB99B25 for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:05:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n59K5R8q000277 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:05:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:05:26 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: It's the Internet Stupid To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <43642ACA-E544-4410-BC36-8101B110E649@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_D70vI+ll/1vMyWC3ehworg)" X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.201.16 X-Listbox-UUID: E375FC4E-5530-11DE-9330-B5D71CB9A371 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <047d01c9e925$7bc0bb60$73423220$@frankston.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_D70vI+ll/1vMyWC3ehworg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Begin forwarded message: =46rom: "Bob Frankston" Date: June 9, 2009 1:12:34 PM EDT To: Subject: RE: [IP] Re: It's the Internet Stupid I really don=92t want to go around again and again on the same issues= . =20 Brett seems to be firmly wedded to the presumption of managing =20 scarcity. David I=92s exception (and mandated for neutrality) is like= ly =20 to be moot once we address the root cause =96 the service framing. How do we move this discussion ahead rather than revisiting the same = =20 issues again and =85? =46rom: David Farber [mailto:dave@farber.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 12:20 To: ip Subject: [IP] Re: It's the Internet Stupid Begin forwarded message: =46rom: Brett Glass Date: June 8, 2009 2:00:47 PM EDT To: dave@farber.net, "ip" Subject: Re: [IP] It's the Internet Stupid At 05:20 AM 6/8/2009, David Isenberg wrote: I've told Brett many times, and I'd like to say it again publicly, that even though I favor, "prohibit[ing] discriminatory or preferenti= al treatment of packets based on sender, recipient or packet contents," I ALSO FAVOR AN EXEMPTION FOR SMALL ISPS. I don't know exactly where "small" ends, but if the ISP is independent and serving its community well, I wouldn't bind it to network neutrality rules so strict that it would put the ISP out of business. As I say, I've told Brett this many times, but he never seems to remember. There is a big difference between not remembering and disagreeing. I = =20 have told Mr. Isenberg, just as many times as he has proposed them, = =20 that "carve-outs" for small entities are not an acceptable solution = =20 for at least three reasons. Firstly, the fact that one would immediately have to consider "carve = =20 outs" to avoid obviously bad consequences should set off alarm bells:= =20 it is a sign that the proposed regulation is fundamentally wrong in = =20 its approach and in principle. The simple fact is that networks NEED = =20 to be managed -- and, yes, that means the ability to recognize traffi= c =20 and treat it appropriately. In other words, the network absolutely = =20 must "discriminate" -- in the non-pejorative sense of the term -- to = =20 work well. The Internet protocols were designed, from the very =20 beginning, with provisions for quality of service and policy routing = =20 for this very reason. Secondly, if one starts carving out specific exemptions, the law = =20 begins to look like Swiss cheese -- and is more and more subject to = =20 exceptions that favor large and powerful special interests rather tha= n =20 small operators. Finally, the proposed regulation would be unable to adapt to rapidly = =20 changing or unforeseen circumstances -- and large entities with malig= n =20 intent would be far more able to take advantage of this than small = =20 players. The correct solution is to go back to first principles. No regulation= =20 is needed if we encourage robust, fair competition among providers of= =20 ALL sizes, so that the market can quickly and ably deal with any = =20 practice that consumers find undesirable (including ones not =20 contemplated by the proposed regulation). The only government =20 intervention that is needed at all is the prohibition of =20 anticompetitive practices (which include - but are not limited to - = =20 price squeezing, price gouging in the "middle mile" by ILECs, and = =20 refusal to deal by backbone owners). The onerous "network neutrality" regulation advocated by Mr. Isenberg= =20 isn't actually "neutral" at all. It favors one particular large =20 corporation: Google. A key goal of this regulation is to prevent ISPs= =20 =66rom adding value to bandwidth or to their network or from realizin= g a =20 fair return on their hard work. Google is tirelessly lobbying, both = =20 directly and via a large number of surrogates in DC and elsewhere, to= =20 get such regulation instated by government bodies worldwide. (Its = =20 primary foci, at present, are the US, Canada, and the EU.) For an excellent analysis that explains why Google is lavishing =20 Googlebucks on many individuals and groups which advocate policies = =20 that would undermine both copyright owners and ISPs, see Andrew =20 Orlowski=92s articles at http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/10/15/neutrality_in_europe_analysis= /print.html and http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/01/google_wave/. --Brett Glass Archives =09 ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_D70vI+ll/1vMyWC3ehworg) Content-type: multipart/related; boundary="Boundary_(ID_8zycRlMwlRmqWIBeq91KEw)"; type="text/html" --Boundary_(ID_8zycRlMwlRmqWIBeq91KEw) Content-type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

Begin for= warded message:

From: "Bob Frankston" <Bob19-0501@bobf.frankston.com>
Date: June 9, 20= 09 1:12:34 PM EDT
Subject: RE: [IP] Re:   It's the Internet Stu= pid

=
I really don=92t want to go= around again and again on the same issues. Brett seems to be firmly = wedded to the presumption of managing scarcity. David I=92s exception= (and mandated for neutrality) is likely to be moot once we address t= he root cause =96 the service framing.
 
How do we move this discussion ahead rat= her than revisiting the same issues again and =85?<= /div>
 
 
From: David Farber [mailto:dave@farber.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 12:20
To: ip
Subject: [IP] Re: It's the Intern= et Stupid
 =
 
 
Begin forwarded message:
 
From:&nb= sp;Brett Glass <brett@lariat.= net>
Date: June 8, 2009 2:00:47 PM EDT
Subject: Re: [IP] It's the Int= ernet Stupid
=  

At 05:20 AM 6/8/2= 009, David Isenberg wrote:
 

I've told Brett many times, and I'd like to say it again publicl= y,
that even though I favor, "prohibit[ing] discriminatory or pref= erential
treatment of packets based on sender, recipient or packet= contents,"
I ALSO FAVOR AN EXEMPTION FOR SMALL ISPS. I don't know= exactly where
"small" ends, but if the ISP is independent and ser= ving its community
well, I wouldn't bind it to network neutrality = rules so strict that
it would put the ISP out of business.

= As I say, I've told Brett this many times, but he never seems to
r= emember.


There is a bi= g difference between not remembering and disagreeing. I have told Mr.= Isenberg, just as many times as he has proposed them, that "carve-ou= ts" for small entities are not an acceptable solution for at least th= ree reasons.

Firstly, the fact that one would immediately have= to consider "carve outs" to avoid obviously bad consequences should = set off alarm bells: it is a sign that the proposed regulation is fun= damentally wrong in its approach and in principle. The simple fact is= that networks NEED to be managed -- and, yes, that means the ability= to recognize traffic and treat it appropriately. In other words, the= network absolutely must "discriminate" -- in the non-pejorative sens= e of the term -- to work well. The Internet protocols were designed, = =66rom the very beginning, with provisions for quality of service and= policy routing for this very reason.

Secondly, if one starts = carving out specific exemptions, the law begins to look like Swiss ch= eese -- and is more and more subject to exceptions that favor large a= nd powerful special interests rather than small operators. 

Finally, the proposed= regulation would be unable to adapt to rapidly changing or unforesee= n circumstances -- and large entities with malign intent would be far= more able to take advantage of this than small players.

The c= orrect solution is to go back to first principles. No regulation is n= eeded if we encourage robust, fair competition among providers of ALL= sizes, so that the market can quickly and ably deal with any practic= e that consumers find undesirable (including ones not contemplated by= the proposed regulation). The only government intervention that is n= eeded at all is the prohibition of anticompetitive practices (which i= nclude - but are not limited to -  price squeezing, price gouging in the "middle mile" b= y ILECs, and refusal to deal by backbone owners).

The onerous = "network neutrality" regulation advocated by Mr. Isenberg isn't actua= lly "neutral" at all. It favors one particular large corporation: Goo= gle. A key goal of this regulation is to prevent ISPs from adding val= ue to bandwidth or to their network or from realizing a fair return o= n their hard work. Google is tirelessly lobbying, both directly and v= ia a large number of surrogates in DC and elsewhere, to get such regu= lation instated by government bodies worldwide. (Its primary foci, at= present, are the US, Canada, and the EU.)

For an excellent an= alysis that explains why Google is lavishing Googlebucks on many indi= viduals and groups which advocate policies that would undermine both = copyright owners and ISPs, see Andrew Orlowski=92s articles at 

http://www= .theregister.co.uk/2008/10/15/neutrality_in_europe_analysis/print.htm= l

and 
http://www.ther= egister.co.uk/2009/06/01/google_wave/. 

--Brett Glass

 
 

Archives
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Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:11:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DACE2E921 for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:07:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 314052E91F for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:07:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n59K7S4W029601 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:07:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:07:28 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Former AT&T CEO Whitacre to lead GM To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 2ACF6CA6-5531-11DE-A5F9-B5223B11B7C9 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: =46rom: dewayne@warpspeed.com (Dewayne Hendricks) Date: June 9, 2009 12:55:36 PM EDT To: Dewayne-Net Technology List Subject: [Dewayne-Net] Former AT&T CEO Whitacre to lead GM [Note: I thought this was a joke when I first saw it & checked for = =20 confirmation. Its not a joke. Silly me! DLH] Former AT&T CEO Whitacre to lead GM By jimo Created 06/09/2009 - 10:27 The Wall Street Journal is reporting former AT&T CEO Edward Whitacre = =20 Jr. will take over ailing automaker General Motors later this summer = =20 after the company emerges from bankruptcy protection. Current GM = =20 interim Chairman Kent Kresa will remain at his post until later this = =20 summer. Whitacre, 67, led AT&T and its predecessor companies through a series= =20 of mergers and acquisitions, including SBC's acquisition of AT&T in = =20 2005, which created the nation=92s largest provider of local, long = =20 distance and wireless services. He was with the carrier and its =20 predecessor companies from 1990 to 2007. He currently serves on the = =20 board of Exxon Mobil and Burlington Northern Santa Fe, reports CNBC. For more: - See this WSJ article: RSS Feed: -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Wed Jun 10 15:56:21 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL100601GPNL6@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:56:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL100601GPJKV@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:56:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KKZ00901V8E8O@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 19:14:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KKZ00836V8DV2@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 19:14:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.49]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C6AC3BAF for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 19:21:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B559294E for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 19:21:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F38362E723 for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 19:17:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (JACKFRUIT.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.201.16]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F01D42E722 for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 19:17:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n59NHW92015540 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 19:17:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 19:17:33 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] T-Mobile Confirms Stolen Data is Genuine - CIO.com - Business Technology Leadership To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <1635B5B3-A0E9-4EAC-B4F0-592D31093FC3@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_3E2dGWOZ6x2p5C4NlqhD+g)" X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.201.16 X-Listbox-UUID: B8026D02-554B-11DE-9AA3-BC664D3E4F90 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_3E2dGWOZ6x2p5C4NlqhD+g) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT http://www.cio.com/article/494553/T_Mobile_Confirms_Stolen_Data_is_Genuine ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_3E2dGWOZ6x2p5C4NlqhD+g) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

http://www.cio.com/article/494553/T_Mobile_Confirms_Stolen_Data_is_Genuine

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Begin forwarded message:

From: "Eugene H. Spafford" <spaf@mac.com>
Date: Ju= ne 10, 2009 10:49:30 AM EDT
To: Dave Farber <dave@farber.net>, ip <ip@v2.listbox.com>
<= div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; = margin-left: 0px; ">Subject: China dominates NSA-backed coding contest
=

Programmers from China and Russia have dominated = an international competition on everything from writing algorithms to= designing components.

Whether the out= come of this competition is another sign that math and science educat= ion in the U.S. needs improvement may spur debate. But the fact remai= ns: Of 70 finalists, 20 were from China, 10 from Russia and two from = the U.S....

http://www.computerworld.com/action/ar= ticle.do?command=3DviewArticleBasic&taxonomyName=3Ddevelopment&am= p;articleId=3D9134122


--Boundary_(ID_myg1l0AhDamRNd1QMf4hIg)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Thu Jun 11 06:51:22 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL200O01M5HD5@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 06:51:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL200O01M5ECT@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Thu, 11 Jun 2009 06:51:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL100D01T2JTC@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 20:23:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KL100BCBT2I56@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 20:23:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.49]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B994F3C06 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 20:29:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC7362E87 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 20:29:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5D8E918 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 20:26:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by a-lb-mx-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE5B6914 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 20:26:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n5B0QDlC005576 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 20:26:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 20:26:12 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] French Court Defangs Plan to Crack Down on Internet Piracy - NYTimes.com To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <8BC2C4E5-E0CE-42DC-9993-EFD1EA12FEA4@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_tdZkJgsAW7YTT+345LIetw)" X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 798A2D20-561E-11DE-9BF2-89E1E92E0D12 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_tdZkJgsAW7YTT+345LIetw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/11/technology/internet/11net.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&hpw=&adxnnlx=1244679938-2i1oBSCL2GJb2QOYejCpTQ ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_tdZkJgsAW7YTT+345LIetw) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/11/technology/internet/11net.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&hpw=&adxnnlx=1244679938-2i1oBSCL2GJb2QOYejCpTQ

--Boundary_(ID_tdZkJgsAW7YTT+345LIetw)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Thu Jun 11 16:19:11 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL300701CFW92@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:19:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL300701CFR7P@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:19:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL300501BJI6T@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:59:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KL3002QMBJI78@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:59:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.49]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B6073DCB for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:06:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C65339F9 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:06:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0A82C97 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:02:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (JACKFRUIT.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.201.16]) by a-lb-mx-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49BE9C8F for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:02:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n5BK2dFb006316 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:02:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:02:39 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Nielsen and the Reply-to-All Conundrum To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <211503FE-0BC8-4057-97B8-F078BE2329ED@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_iqcC9VqlNWOynjk7rz27xw)" X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.201.16 X-Listbox-UUID: D3CC2140-56C2-11DE-ABB2-A21D709D0FCA X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_iqcC9VqlNWOynjk7rz27xw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Begin forwarded message: =46rom: "Jonathan B Spira" Date: June 11, 2009 2:52:47 PM EDT To: David Farber Subject: Nielsen and the Reply-to-All Conundrum Dave Most people are not aware that Nielsen, the company that measures TV = =20 audiences and other media, tried to ban reply-to-all functionality in= =20 e-mail. While no one would argue that the use of Reply-to-All can lead to = =20 significant e-mail overload, removing the Reply-to-All button turns = =20 out not to do very much (except possibly make the company whose idea = =20 this is look a bit silly). Article at http://www.basexblog.com/2009/05/27/nielsens-reply-to-all-= experiment/ Regards/Mit freundlichen Gr=FC=DFen/Sz=EDv=E9lyes =FCdv=F6zlet/Cordia= lement/=20 Cordiali saluti/Saludos/V=E4nliga h=E4lsningar /s/ Jonathan Jonathan B. Spira CEO and Chief Analyst Basex, Inc. 8 http://www.basex.com ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_iqcC9VqlNWOynjk7rz27xw) Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

Begin for= warded message:

From: "Jonathan B Spira" <jspira@= basex.com>
Date: June 11, 2009 2:52:47 PM EDT<= /font>
To: David Farber <d= ave@farber.net>
Subject: Nielsen and the Rep= ly-to-All Conundrum


Dave<= /font>

Most people are = not aware that Nielsen, the company that measures TV audiences and ot= her media, tried to ban reply-to-all functionality in e-mail. =

While no one would argu= e that the use of Reply-to-All can lead to significant e-mail overloa= d, removing the Reply-to-All button turns out not to do very much (ex= cept possibly make the company whose idea this is look a bit silly).<= /font>

Article at http://www.basexb= log.com/2009/05/27/nielsens-reply-to-all-experiment/
=

Regards/Mit freundlichen Gr=FC=DFen/Sz=EDv=E9lyes = =FCdv=F6zlet/Cordialement/Cordiali saluti/Saludos/V=E4nliga h=E4lsnin= gar

/s/ Jonathan

Jonathan B. Spira
CEO and Chief Analyst
Basex, Inc.
8 http://www.basex.com


Archives
--Boundary_(ID_iqcC9VqlNWOynjk7rz27xw)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Jun 12 08:20:20 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL400101KXSRX@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 08:20:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL400101KXORK@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 12 Jun 2009 08:20:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL400L01IQGGO@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:32:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KL400E9EIQGXW@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:32:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.38]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B65A43E1 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:39:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F73A47B2 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:39:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52FD02FC43 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:35:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (JACKFRUIT.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.201.16]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F57A2FC3F for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:35:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.106] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n5CBZiIH008453 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:35:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:35:43 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: Nielsen and the Reply-to-All Conundrum To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <27AF15B1-6E20-4733-86E9-8815DDC98483@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.201.16 X-Listbox-UUID: 2D299C2C-5745-11DE-A515-C00625CA7110 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <4A3168ED.6050901@opus1.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Joel M Snyder Date: June 11, 2009 4:28:29 PM EDT To: dave@farber.net Cc: ip , jspira@basex.com Subject: Re: [IP] Nielsen and the Reply-to-All Conundrum In Microsoft Exchange 2010 (now in beta testing), Microsoft has 'noticed' the problem and added MailTips (an analogy to ToolTips) to both the Outlook client and the webmail (Outlook Web Access) interface. For example, when you add a distribution list to a recipient list in a message, MailTips will warn you if there are a large number of recipients you are sending to. You'll also get advice (at the moment you address a message) telling you if the recipient is out-of-office, if attachments are too large, etc. In addition, MailTips has the option of letting the email manager define rules which could, for example, warn the sender if there are too many recipients. While removing the function of the "Reply All" button is clearly one approach, it's nice to have a more education-based or feedback-based approach to both training users not to send to too many recipients, or that they might have, inadvertently, sent to a large number. After a couple of decades, we as an industry (and Microsoft as our biggest software vendor) are beginning to learn... jms (not a Microsoft shill, but a product reviewer who tested Exchange 2010 for Network World) -- Joel M Snyder, 1404 East Lind Road, Tucson, AZ, 85719 Senior Partner, Opus One Phone: +1 520 324 0494 jms@Opus1.COM http://www.opus1.com/jms -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Jun 12 08:20:21 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL400101KXSRX@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 08:20:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL400101KXORK@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 12 Jun 2009 08:20:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL400L01IRMIZ@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:33:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KL400E9YIRMXW@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:33:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7B1C2346 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:40:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB1714E09 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:40:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E05B42FC57 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:36:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (JACKFRUIT.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.201.16]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 154E92FC56 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:36:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.106] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n5CBZiII008453 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:36:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:36:26 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: The iPhone 3G S (I have never been less excited djf) To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <5E4CCCD3-6F9A-4804-A01A-C6E4D7D9F386@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_C2mUePHShtjOu7j6W+SJAQ)" X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.201.16 X-Listbox-UUID: 44C09D86-5745-11DE-891F-F2494EDFBC22 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_C2mUePHShtjOu7j6W+SJAQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Begin forwarded message: From: "charles.brownstein" Date: June 11, 2009 11:08:37 PM EDT To: dave@farber.net Subject: Re: [IP] The iPhone 3G S (I have never been less excited djf) "Yeah, not going to happen this time around" could be a good market slogan - for the competition. On Jun 8, 2009, at 4:25 PM, David Farber wrote: > > http://www.mobilecrunch.com/2009/06/08/official-the-iphone-3gs/#more-14182 > > > Update: Remember how last year AT&T let current iPhone owners > upgrade without penalty. Yeah, not going to happen this time around. > > From the iPhone product page down in the fine print: > > Requires new two-year AT&T wireless service contract, sold > separately to qualified customers; credit check required; must be 18 > or older. For non-qualified customers, including existing AT&T > customers who want to upgrade from another phone or replace an > iPhone 3G, the price with a new two-year agreement is $499 (8GB), > $599 (16GB), or $699 (32GB). > > Archives ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_C2mUePHShtjOu7j6W+SJAQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

Begin forwarded message:

From: "charles.brownstein" <charles.brownstein@veri= zon.net>
Date: June 11, 2009 11:08:37 PM EDT
Su= bject: Re: [IP] The iPhone 3G S  (I have never been less excited djf)<= /font>

<= div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit= -line-break: after-white-space; ">
=

"Yeah, not goin= g to happen this time around" could be a good market slogan - for the= competition.   


=
On Jun 8, 2009, at 4:25 PM, David Farber wrote:

http://www.mobilecrunch.c= om/2009/06/08/official-the-iphone-3gs/#more-14182

=

Update: Remember how last year = AT&T let current iPhone owners upgrade without penalty. Yeah, not= going to happen this time around.

From the iPhone product page down in the fine prin= t:

Requires new two-year AT&T wireless servic= e contract, sold separately to qualified customers; credit check requ= ired; must be 18 or older. For non-qualified customers, including exi= sting AT&T customers who want to upgrade from another phone or re= place an iPhone 3G, the price with a new two-year agreement is $499 (= 8GB), $599 (16GB), or $699 (32GB).



--Boundary_(ID_C2mUePHShtjOu7j6W+SJAQ)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Jun 12 08:20:22 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL400101KXSRX@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 08:20:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL400101KXORK@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 12 Jun 2009 08:20:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL400L01ISYM5@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:34:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KL400EBCISYXW@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:34:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (unknown [208.72.237.63]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DEF6269A for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:41:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by d-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6570130A1 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:41:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 349D22FC60 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:37:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (JACKFRUIT.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.201.16]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 545A62FC5E for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:37:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.106] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n5CBZiIJ008453 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:37:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:37:11 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: British libel law strikes again To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <771EEF13-59CC-45FF-AD69-115A17079DFD@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_cz9jx854j7UsobE7jbPj0w)" X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.201.16 X-Listbox-UUID: 5FBEB46A-5745-11DE-85FD-DC9E52BF1317 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_cz9jx854j7UsobE7jbPj0w) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Begin forwarded message: From: Paul Davey Date: June 12, 2009 4:45:55 AM EDT To: dave@farber.net Subject: Re: [IP] Re: British libel law strikes again More on this topic if you want it: Not mentioning Simon Singh but relevant to those worrying about the English libel laws as applied to work published elsewhere (eg the USA) there was a very short segment yesterday morning on BBC Radio's flagship news programme Today. This started with a conversation with Congressman Pete King on his draft legislation to protect Americans from foreign libel laws, then switched to a UK lawyer explaining why he thinks this risk is overblown, based on past rulings and practice. For example courts would reject a claim where the defendant points out that there is a more appropriate jurisdiction for a case, and also past precedent that a few page views (or maybe downloads?) (from a foreign site?) do not constitute publishing... I think the audio will be here for at least a week: http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_8094000/8094842.stm Here is the intro detail from that page: Do libel laws stifle free speech? Britain's libel laws are being criticised by US legislators. Members of Congress in Washington are trying to pass new laws to protect US journalists and NGOs from "libel tourism" - the practice of foreigners using UK libel law to silence their critics. Lawyer Laurence Harris examines if UK libel laws are stifling free speech -- kind regards Paul 2009/6/7 David Farber Begin forwarded message: From: Paul Davey Date: June 7, 2009 11:13:09 AM EDT To: dave@farber.net Subject: Re: [IP] British libel law strikes again As well as going to the Court of Appeal over this ruling Simon Singh has now launched a campaign to reform the English libel laws. The reform activity is being co-ordinated by Sense About Science - see http://www.senseaboutscience.org.uk/index.php/site/project/333/ Sense About Science is an independent charitable trust promoting good science and evidence in public debates. (It has for example provided information on bird flu, detox, stem cell research and nuclear science, and helping the public assess claims about cures and treatments for long-term conditions.) So IP readers who believe it is "inappropriate to use the English libel laws to silence critical discussion of medical practice and scientific evidence" can add their names to the campaign can add their names. There are many international scientists and other notable people already listed. There was an interview with Singh about this on the BBC radio programme Material World broadcast on 2009-06-04 see http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00kpzdj (it also available to listen on line - at least in the UK) There are some details of the case and why he expects his application to the Court of Appeal to fail - on this page: http://www.senseaboutscience.org.uk/index.php/site/project/340 - He also has a supporting Facebook group. kind regards paul davey 2009/5/9 David Farber Begin forwarded message: From: "Wendy M. Grossman" Date: May 9, 2009 8:33:32 AM EDT To: Dave Farber Subject: British libel law strikes again Reply-To: wendyg@pelicancrossing.net For IP if you wish: On Thursday, the British judge Sir David Eady made a disturbing and alarming ruling in a libel case brought by the British Chiropractic Association against Simon Singh (www.simonsingh.net), author of many science books including Fermat's Last Theorem and, germane to this case, Trick or Treatment? Alternative Medicine on Trial (cu-author Edzard Ernst). Singh also writes for the Guardian, and the libel case turned on a statement he made in a piece he wrote on chiropractic for the Guardian's comment pages. The legal blogger Jack of Kent explains the legal ins and outs of this ruling much better than I can in two posts. The first is a summary of what happened at the hearing on Thursday; the second opens the discussion of Singh's options: http://jackofkent.blogspot.com/2009/05/bca-v-singh-astonishingly-illiberal.html http://jackofkent.blogspot.com/2009/05/what-should-simon-singh-do-next.html Briefly, the judge ruled that Singh's use of the term "bogus" for chiropractic in certain circumstances was a statement of fact rather than a comment, which under the British legal system puts Singh in an impossible position: at a trial he would have to prove that the *judge's* interpretation of what he said is factually true. He can appeal the ruling, but because it hinges on the *meaning* of the passage at issue, apparently it's very rare for this sort of ruling to be overturned. If it stands, the ruling is bad enough for Singh, who will have to pay the BCA's costs. But it will have an even more terrible effect on critiquing anything to do with pseudoscience or alt-med: talk about chilling effects. wg Founder, the UK's The Skeptic magazine (www.skeptic.org.uk) ------------------------------------------- Archives ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_cz9jx854j7UsobE7jbPj0w) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

Begin for= warded message:

From: Paul Davey <ip@pdc.co.uk>= ;
= Date: June 12, 2009 4:45:55 AM EDT
Subject: Re: [IP] Re: British libel law strikes again

More on this to= pic if you want it:

Not mentioning Simon Singh but relevant to= those worrying about the English libel laws as applied to work publi= shed elsewhere (eg the USA) there was a very short segment yesterday = morning on BBC Radio's flagship news programme Today.

This st= arted with a conversation with Congressman Pete King on his draft leg= islation to protect Americans from foreign libel laws, then switched = to a UK lawyer explaining why he thinks this risk is overblown, based= on past rulings and practice.

For example courts would rejec= t a claim where the defendant points out that there is a more appropr= iate jurisdiction for a case, and also past precedent that a few page= views (or maybe downloads?) (from a foreign site?) do not constitute= publishing...

I think the audio will be here for at least a = week: 
  http://news.bbc.co.uk= /today/hi/today/newsid_8094000/8094842.stm

Here is the in= tro detail from that page:

Do libel laws sti= fle free speech?

=09=09 =09=09=09=09=09=09=09
=09
=09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09=09=09=09=09=09=09 =09= =09=09=09=09=09=09 =09Britain's libel laws are being criticised by US= legislators. Members of Congress in Washington are trying to pass ne= w laws to protect US journalists and NGOs from "libel tourism" - the = practice of foreigners using UK libel law to silence their critics. L= awyer Laurence Harris examines if UK libel laws are stifling free spe= ech

--
 kind regards

    Paul

2009/6/7 David Farber <dav= e@farber.net>


Begin forwarded mes= sage:

From: Paul Da= vey <ip@pdc.co.u= k>
Date: June 7,= 2009 11:13:09 AM EDT
Subject: <= b>Re: [IP] British libel law strikes again

As well as going to the Court of Appeal over this ruling Simon = Singh has now launched a campaign to reform the English libel laws.
The reform activity is being co-ordinated by Sense About Scien= ce - see http://www.senseaboutscience.org.uk= /index.php/site/project/333/

Sense About Science is an i= ndependent charitable trust promoting good science and evidence in pu= blic debates. (It has for example provided information on bird flu, d= etox, stem cell research and nuclear science, and helping the public = assess claims about cures and treatments for long-term conditions.)
So IP readers who believe it is "inappropriate to use the Eng= lish libel laws to silence critical discussion of medical practice an= d scientific evidence" can add their names to the campaign can add th= eir names. There are many international scientists and other notable = people already listed.

There was an interview with Singh abo= ut this on the BBC radio programme Material World broadcast on 2009-0= 6-04 see http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00kpzdj (it also ava= ilable to listen on line - at least in the UK)

There are some= details of the case and why he expects his application to the = Court of Appeal to fail - on this page: http://www.senseaboutscience.org.uk/index.php/site/project/340=   - He also has a supporting Facebook group.

kind regar= ds
  paul davey

2009/5/9 Da= vid Farber <dave@farber.net>


Begin forw= arded message:

From: "Wendy M. Grossman" <wendyg@pelicancrossi= ng.net>
Date: May 9, 2009 8:33:32 AM EDT
To: Dave Farb= er <dave@farb= er.net>
Subject: British libel law strikes again
Reply= -To: = wendyg@pelicancrossing.net

For IP if you wish:

= On Thursday, the British judge Sir David Eady made a disturbing and a= larming ruling in a libel case brought by the British Chiropractic As= sociation against Simon Singh (www.simonsingh.net), author of many science boo= ks including Fermat's Last Theorem and, germane to this case, Trick o= r Treatment? Alternative Medicine on Trial (cu-author Edzard Ernst). = Singh also writes for the Guardian, and the libel case turned on a st= atement he made in a piece he wrote on chiropractic for the Guardian'= s comment pages.

The legal blogger Jack of Kent explains th= e legal ins and outs of this ruling much better than I can in two pos= ts. The first is a summary of what happened at the hearing on Thursda= y; the second opens the discussion of Singh's options:

http://jackofkent.blogspot.com/2= 009/05/bca-v-singh-astonishingly-illiberal.html

http://jackofkent.blogspot.com/2009/05/= what-should-simon-singh-do-next.html

Briefly, the judge= ruled that Singh's use of the term "bogus" for chiropractic in certa= in circumstances was a statement of fact rather than a comment, which= under the British legal system puts Singh in an impossible position:= at a trial he would have to prove that the *judge's* interpretation = of what he said is factually true. He can appeal the ruling, but beca= use it hinges on the *meaning* of the passage at issue, apparently it= 's very rare for this sort of ruling to be overturned.

If i= t stands, the ruling is bad enough for Singh, who will have to pay th= e BCA's costs. But it will have an even more terrible effect on criti= quing anything to do with pseudoscience or alt-med: talk about chilli= ng effects.

wg
Founder, the UK's The Skeptic magazine (= www.skeptic.o= rg.uk)




----------------------------------= ---------
Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/arc= hive/247/=3Dnow
RSS Feed: http://www.listbox.com




--Boundary_(ID_cz9jx854j7UsobE7jbPj0w)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Jun 12 13:13:51 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL400E01YIZCD@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:13:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL400E01YI19F@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:13:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL400401LRB1I@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 08:38:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KL40030JLRBYL@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 08:37:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.38]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BC3D4C91 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 08:44:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 777814213 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 08:44:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6223F2F030 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 08:39:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 872822F02F for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 08:39:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n5CCcvnn003480 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 08:38:58 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 08:38:56 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Innovation research question To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <3262E250-D193-4FB2-8D2C-BB6CF81D2C90@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_ieZBgDT2Y/5OC534wgh6uQ)" X-Priority: 3 X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 029684B2-574E-11DE-961D-A301A42D2F01 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_ieZBgDT2Y/5OC534wgh6uQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Begin forwarded message: From: "Gerry Faulhaber" Date: June 11, 2009 10:10:01 AM EDT To: Subject: Innovation research question Dave [for you personally or IP, you decide]-- I am doing research on innovation, and would like to pose a simple question to an Internet audience: What are the five most important innovations in/from the Internet in the last five years (since 1/1/04)? -Must be the Internet; not computing, not telecom/high-speed data, not wireless, not mobile. For example, neither FIOS nor MyFi count. -Criterion for importance is the innovation's actual impact (for good or ill) on people; whizzy new gizmos that knock out techies but haven't found their way to real people don't count. Both good and bad count; for example, Facebook and phishing both count. -Include in your list the dates when the innovation was introduced. -Feel free to tell me why you think your nominees make the list. -Please don't respond with snide comments about others' nominees; not useful and a waste of time. TIA for your thoughtful opinions. Professor Gerry Faulhaber Emeritus Wharton School, University of Pennsylvania Penn Law School ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_ieZBgDT2Y/5OC534wgh6uQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

Begin for= warded message:

From: "Gerry Faulhaber" <gerry-faulhaber@mchsi.com>
<= font face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" color=3D"#000000" style=3D"font: 1= 2.0px Helvetica; color: #000000">Date: June 11, 2009 10= :10:01 AM EDT
Subject: Innovation research= question

=
<= div>Dave [for you personally or IP, y= ou decide]--
=  
I am doing research = on innovation, and would like to pose a simple question to an Interne= t audience:
&= nbsp;
What are the five mos= t important innovations in/from the Internet in the last five years (= since 1/1/04)?
 
   = -Must be the Internet; not computing, not telecom/high-speed data, n= ot wireless, not mobile.  For example, neither FIOS nor MyFi cou= nt.
  &nbs= p; -Criterion for importance is the innovation's actual impact (for g= ood or ill) on people; whizzy new gizmos that knock out techies but h= aven't found their way to real people don't count.  Both good an= d bad count; for example, Facebook and phishing both count.
    -Include i= n your list the dates when the innovation was introduced.
    -Feel free t= o tell me why you think your nominees make the list.
    -Please don't res= pond with snide comments about others' nominees; not useful and a was= te of time.
&= nbsp;
TIA for your thoughtf= ul opinions.
=  
Professor Gerry Faul= haber  Emeritus 
Wharton School, University of Pennsylvania
Penn Law School

--Boundary_(ID_ieZBgDT2Y/5OC534wgh6uQ)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Jun 12 13:13:52 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL400E01YIZCD@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:13:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL400E01YI19F@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:13:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL400J01S2LP8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 10:54:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KL400GKQS2LYH@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 10:54:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (unknown [208.72.237.63]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A69A2C51 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 11:01:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by d-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A50832F0 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 11:01:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFDC14766 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 10:57:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22B764764 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 10:57:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n5CEvMeL011985 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 10:57:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 10:57:22 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] BT Heavily Throttling BBC, All Video To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <93C2AE2A-E5BA-4223-8CA9-6DC88E447D23@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_82OXTNcFknrHljXvtv6Mpg)" X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 5736E31E-5761-11DE-A708-5C45BDDB0776 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <20090612131321.5734D3044A@mailbackend.panix.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_82OXTNcFknrHljXvtv6Mpg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Begin forwarded message: =46rom: Dave Burstein Date: June 12, 2009 9:12:31 AM EDT To: dave@farber.net Subject: BT Heavily Throttling BBC, All Video Folks I think this is the big one, especially since OFCOM's Ed Richards has= =20 been encouraging them. My story below has been sent to them for =20 factchecking and no corrections came back. Tim Bradshaw at FT just broke a major story, the first "net =20 neutrality" challenge that may seriously affect people watching onlin= e =20 video. The Comcast and other disputes were about symbol and =20 precedents, and the actual throttling was almost trivial. This is a = =20 major carrier whose video lead has just resigned under fire (below) = =20 because they aren't getting enough customers, and is actively cutting= =20 competitive video down to half the usual bit rate while Hulu and = =20 others are increasing quality. They lost $2B on Global Services and = =20 just cut another 15,000 employees, so they are scrambling for revenue= =20 wherever they can get it, My sources are clear that's because of = =20 business, not technical or costs issues with likely Internet video = =20 usage. I have on the record senior people from AT&T, Verizon, Comcast= , =20 MIT and BT itself (below) BT seeks to end 'free ride' by video websites By Tim Bradshaw, Digital Media Correspondent Published: June 11 2009 03:00 | Last updated: June 11 2009 03:00 BT has called for an end to the "free ride" it says video websites = =20 such as the BBC iPlayer and YouTube enjoy on its network. The telecoms group, which was accused last week of "throttling" =20 iPlayer performance at peak times, spoke publicly for the first time = =20 yesterday about how it hoped to charge content owners for delivery of= =20 their programmes over its broadband network. "We can't give the content providers a completely free ride and =20 continue to give customers the [service] they want at the price they = =20 expect," said John Petter, managing director of BT Retail's consumer = =20 business. =2E.. Last week, the BBC reported that BT broadband "cuts the speed = =20 users can watch video services like the BBC iPlayer and YouTube at = =20 peak times", and that the BBC was "concerned the throttling of =20 download speeds was affecting the viewing experience for some users". Under the "fair use" policy of BT's Option 1 broadband package, BT = =20 says it cuts video streaming from 8 megabits per second down to 896 = =20 kilobits per second between 5pm and midnight, which BT said was =20 sufficient to watch iPlayer. ---- Here's my report including some BT comments last fall that =20 contradict the claims, and some news for context. This is the first really big challenge on net neutrality. Comcast and= =20 others were about precedents but the actual harm was minor. =20 BT_boothLondon: British Telecom's John Petter tells FT they throttle = =20 =938 megabits per second customers down to 896 kilobits per second = =20 between 5pm and midnight,=94 and adding that's fine for the BBC iPlay= er. =20 That is not so. It is far below standard TV quality and half the spee= d =20 of the typical U.S. network's Internet feed. (ABC was streaming at 1.= 9 =20 megabits last I heard. AT&T's U-Verse standard definition TV was 2.1 = =20 megabits last time they spoke publicly.) Britons are rapidly moving t= o =20 HD, as are video providers over the net at even higher speeds. His other claim, that video traffic growth is driving up BT's costs s= o =20 much they must charge extra, is unsupported. Cisco has just done a = =20 major report that finds a slight decrease in the rate of Internet = =20 traffic growth, confirming my reporting. While hard to handle video = =20 demand is possible in theory, I sally_davis_btreported in September = =20 =66rom the CEO of BT Wholesale Davis' network is ready for video BT does not need to charge extra for access for the iPlayer. Sally = =20 Davis, CEO BT Wholesale, confirms she was misquoted about restricting= =20 access. They've solved any congestion problems. ... The local loop = =20 isn't shared so unlike cable has no problem. The fiber backhaul behin= d =20 the DSLAM can be upgraded at modest cost, less than 2% of the service= =20 price. Almost all traffic is inexpensively peered, so there's no = =20 transit cost. Result: BT, AT&T and almost large carriers can easily meet any =20 plausible demand. I was also delighted to report from BT their rates =96 and actual cos= ts =20 =96 for bandwidth are dropping. BT Cutting High Volume Backhaul Rates in Half The new BT backhaul is "approximately 50 per cent cheaper," Anna = =20 Easton of Openreach writes me. Gig-E's for under $2,000 as costs go = =20 down. ... Something is profoundly wrong in the British market. Cross = =20 the Atlantic or the Channel, and DSL carriers just don't have the sam= e =20 problems, even though their bandwidth demands continuing growing at = =20 30-40% per year per subscriber. Everyone from Verizon to Free.fr to = =20 NTT are not having cost or congestion problems, with an effective = =20 bandwidth cost of 1-4% of the price they charge the subscriber. The reality is that while increased video use is driving traffic = =20 growth, the cost of the routers, Internet peering/transit etc. is = =20 going down about as fast. The cost per customer of bandwidth has been= =20 about flat for several years, about $1/month/customer at a carrier = =20 like BT. That's 2-5 % of what BT and most others charge consumers for= =20 broadband. Saul Hansell in the NY Times researched these costs extensively, = =20 including experts in Britain. In an important set of articles, he mad= e =20 clear this is about higher carrier profits and preventing competitive= =20 video, not serious pressure from higher traffic costs. http://fastnetnews.com/dslprime/42-d/1758-bt-heavily-throttling-bbc-a= ll-video BT pay-TV boss walks Rapid tv news - Jun 10, 2009 Dan Marks, the highly-regarded CEO of BT Vision, the pay television = =20 division of British Telecom, has quit, citing his =93frustration=94 o= ver =20 BSkyB's dominance ... BT posts huge 4Q loss, to cut 15000 more jobs The Associated Press - May 14, 2009 LONDON (AP) Telecommunications company BT Group PLC said Thursday it= =20 expects to cut another 15000 jobs in the next year after its Global = =20 Services division ... ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_82OXTNcFknrHljXvtv6Mpg) Content-type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

Begin for= warded message:

From: Dave Burstein <daveb@dslp= rime.com>
Date: June 12, 2009 9:12:31 AM EDT
Su= bject: BT Heavily Throttling BBC, All Video<= /div>

Fo= lks
I think this is the big one, especially since OFCOM's Ed Rich= ards has been encouraging them. My story below has been sent to them = for factchecking and no corrections came back.

Tim Bradshaw = at FT just broke a major story, the first "net neutrality" cha= llenge that may seriously affect people watching online video. The Co= mcast and other disputes were about symbol and precedents, and the ac= tual throttling was almost trivial. This is a major carrier whose vid= eo lead has just resigned under fire (below) because they aren't gett= ing enough customers, and is actively cutting competitive video down = to half the usual bit rate while Hulu and others are increasing quali= ty. They lost $2B on Global Services and just cut another 15,000 empl= oyees, so they are scrambling for revenue wherever they can get it, M= y sources are clear that's because of business, not technical or cost= s issues with likely Internet video usage. I have on the record senio= r people from AT&T, Verizon, Comcast, MIT and BT itself (below) <= br>

BT seeks to end 'free ride' by video websites

= By Tim Bradshaw, Digital Media Correspondent

Published: June= 11 2009 03:00 | Last updated: June 11 2009 03:00

BT has call= ed for an end to the "free ride" it says video websites such as the B= BC iPlayer and YouTube enjoy on its network.

The telecoms gro= up, which was accused last week of "throttling" iPlayer performance a= t peak times, spoke publicly for the first time yesterday about how i= t hoped to charge content owners for delivery of their programmes ove= r its broadband network.

"We can't give the content providers= a completely free ride and continue to give customers the [service] = they want at the price they expect," said John Petter, managing direc= tor of BT Retail's consumer business.

... Last week, the BBC = reported that BT broadband "cuts the speed users can watch video serv= ices like the BBC iPlayer and YouTube at peak times", and that the BB= C was "concerned the throttling of download speeds was affecting the = viewing experience for some users".

Under the "fair use" poli= cy of BT's Option 1 broadband package, BT says it cuts video streamin= g from 8 megabits per second down to 896 kilobits per second between = 5pm and midnight, which BT said was sufficient to watch iPlayer.
<= br> ---- Here's my report including some BT comments last fall that c= ontradict the claims, and some news for context.

This is the = first really big challenge on net neutrality. Comcast and others were= about precedents but the actual harm was minor. BT_boothLondon: Brit= ish Telecom's John Petter tells FT they throttle =938 megabits per se= cond customers down to 896 kilobits per second between 5pm and midnig= ht,=94 and adding that's fine for the BBC iPlayer. That is not so. It= is far below standard TV quality and half the speed of the typical U= .S. network's Internet feed. (ABC was streaming at 1.9 megabits last = I heard. AT&T's U-Verse standard definition TV was 2.1 megabits l= ast time they spoke publicly.) Britons are rapidly moving to HD, as a= re video providers over the net at even higher speeds.

His ot= her claim, that video traffic growth is driving up BT's costs so much= they must charge extra, is unsupported. Cisco has just done a major = report that finds a slight decrease in the rate of Internet traffic g= rowth, confirming my reporting. While hard to handle video demand is = possible in theory, I sally_davis_btreported in September from the CE= O of BT Wholesale

Davis' network is ready for video

B= T does not need to charge extra for access for the iPlayer. Sally Dav= is, CEO BT Wholesale, confirms she was misquoted about restricting ac= cess. They've solved any congestion problems. ... The local loop isn'= t shared so unlike cable has no problem. The fiber backhaul behind th= e DSLAM can be upgraded at modest cost, less than 2% of the service p= rice. Almost all traffic is inexpensively peered, so there's no trans= it cost.

Result: BT, AT&T and almost large carriers can e= asily meet any plausible demand.

I was also delighted to repo= rt from BT their rates =96 and actual costs =96 for bandwidth are dro= pping.

 
BT Cutting High Volume Backhaul Rates in Ha= lf

The new BT backhaul is "approximately 50 per cent cheaper,= " Anna Easton of Openreach writes me. Gig-E's for under $2,000 as cos= ts go down. ... Something is profoundly wrong in the British market. = Cross the Atlantic or the Channel, and DSL carriers just don't have t= he same problems, even though their bandwidth demands continuing grow= ing at 30-40% per year per subscriber. Everyone from Verizon to Free.= fr to NTT are not having cost or congestion problems, with an effecti= ve bandwidth cost of 1-4% of the price they charge the subscriber.
 

The reality is that while increased video use is= driving traffic growth, the cost of the routers, Internet peering/tr= ansit etc. is going down about as fast. The cost per customer of band= width has been about flat for several years, about $1/month/customer = at a carrier like BT. That's 2-5 % of what BT and most others charge = consumers for broadband.

Saul Hansell in the NY Times researc= hed these costs extensively, including experts in Britain. In an impo= rtant set of articles, he made clear this is about higher carrier pro= fits and preventing competitive video, not serious pressure from high= er traffic costs.
http://fastnetnews.com/ds= lprime/42-d/1758-bt-heavily-throttling-bbc-all-video
BT pay-= TV boss walks
Rapid tv news - Jun 10, 2009
Dan Marks, the hi= ghly-regarded CEO of BT Vision, the pay television division of Britis= h Telecom, has quit, citing his =93frustration=94 over BSkyB's domina= nce ...

BT posts huge 4Q loss, to cut 15000 more jobs
The= Associated Press - May 14, 2009
LONDON (AP) =AD Telecommunicati= ons company BT Group PLC said Thursday it expects to cut another 1500= 0 jobs in the next year after its Global Services division ...

--Boundary_(ID_82OXTNcFknrHljXvtv6Mpg)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Jun 12 13:13:53 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL400E01YIZCD@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:13:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL400E01YI19F@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:13:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL400K01S6J4P@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 10:56:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KL400ICKS6JD6@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 10:56:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.49]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B97EC4538 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 11:03:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8ECA3A92 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 11:03:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2E192F9A8 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 10:59:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F15192F9A7 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 10:59:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n5CExqZ9012135 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 10:59:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 10:59:52 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] GM's New Chairman -- You Won't Drive on My Roads for Free To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <65D90BB1-E4D1-41D2-9E4A-9EE86CBD1626@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: B14216DA-5761-11DE-A053-EDEAB8F66C24 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <87D2221F-0D0F-4290-BBE6-69D528BB359C@warpspeed.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: dewayne@warpspeed.com (Dewayne Hendricks) Date: June 10, 2009 11:53:55 PM EDT To: Dewayne-Net Technology List Subject: [Dewayne-Net] GM's New Chairman -- You Won't Drive on My Roads for Free Posted: June 10, 2009 04:22 PM GM's New Chairman -- You Won't Drive on My Roads for Free By Art Brodsky Who says there is no cosmic irony in the bland world of telecom? On the day after thousands and thousands of pages were filed with the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) on a new national broadband plan, General Motors announced its new post-bankruptcy chairman -- Ed Whitacre, the former chairman of AT&T. It was Whitacre who set off the Great Net Neutrality Storm of 2005-2006, when he took control of the Internet on behalf of AT&T, putting forth the unique view of the world that Google, Yahoo and other Internet companies were using his company's telecommunications network "for free," and he wasn't going to allow that. The fact that those, and many other, companies were paying millions of dollars for telecommunications didn't seem to matter. The issue was one of control -- Whitacre had it, and he wasn't going to give it up without a fight. Of course, with General Motors, Whitacre will be able to get back to his original model. Not only Google and Yahoo, but others are using his roads for free. Heaven help the gearheads who want to change out parts in their new post- apocalyptic GM models. Under the Whitacre model, they can forget that after-market new carburetor or the dual exhaust. Even new hubcaps, would be on the no-no list. Whitacre could gin up a few new revenue streams as GM tries to recreate itself. Cars could be sold with speed caps, so customers would pay extra monthly fees for engines that allowed you to drive faster, but only for certain distances between particular destinations. (That might not be a bad thing, come to think of it.) Lauren Weinstein suggested car owners might face mileage caps, or would have to pay to start their cars. Those are his cars, and don't forget it. Sad as it is to mention, the ghost of Whitacre prevails over the current proceeding, much as it hovered over the past. Of course, the language used now is more diplomatic than Whitacre used. Instead of accusing companies of being "nuts" if they think they can use "pipes for free," the industry has refined its approach. They still want control over users and how users employ networks. That kind of idea should sink, "like a rock," as it were. Telephone Companies Want Internet Control That's how the thousands of pages of comments break down. On one side are the network providers and their eco-system of suppliers, much like the auto companies and the companies dependent on them to make the parts. They roll out every rhetorical device/threat they can think of to stave off the fact that the companies owning the networks shouldn't play favorites. On the other side are just about everyone else -- the consumers and their advocates, who want the government to make certain that Internet policy benefits everyone. AT&T, for example, wants to make sure that: "Among other things, the Plan should make clear that policymakers will not allow ancillary debates about 'net neutrality' and theoretical concerns about potential market developments to eclipse the importance of enabling investment in and use of robust network management capabilities to meet critical public-safety needs." For a company that in its comments urged the FCC to think outside the box, this comment certainly meets the test. Now, for the first time, having a neutral, non- discriminatory Internet will hamper public safety. Funny, for all those years that the network was neutral and non-discriminatory under the Communications Act, no one found a public-safety issue. Only in the last couple of years, it seems, has this become an issue. [snip] RSS Feed: -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Jun 12 13:13:54 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL400E01YIZCD@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:13:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL400E01YI19F@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:13:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL400A01WY03A@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:39:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KL40093NWY0SP@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:39:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.49]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6DBE4914 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:46:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1B0D4506 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:46:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C745AA87 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:42:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (JACKFRUIT.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.201.16]) by a-lb-mx-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3DE7A86 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:42:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.106] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n5CGgcsv003111 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:42:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:42:37 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] or Spinning an argument OECD: Broadband Stimulus Investments Must be Coupled with Network Neutrality To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <6E90DCD4-62DA-40FE-B08F-7AE4B7AA0B4B@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.201.16 X-Listbox-UUID: 0DB2CDD4-5770-11DE-84FC-EA80AE0DA2D8 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <886268A3-8DD7-49B5-935D-13C419677B27@warpspeed.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 A comment from your editor. When I first read this note, I went to the document to actually read = =20 what they had to say about network neutrality. After searching for = =20 that term and not finding it, I did find the term use the term open = =20 access. I have attached the end of this comment exactly what was said= =20 about open access. It would help the conversation if people would stop spinning things t= o =20 suit their particular perspective. what was said: "Investment in high speed broadband communication networks that are = =20 part of economic stimulus packages must be accompanied by regulatory frameworks which = =20 support open access to networks and competition in the market. Such investment should also = =20 aim at stimulating the use of information and communication technologies (ICTs) to secure economic = =20 and social benefits. Linking ICT investment with other large physical infrastructure investment, = =20 such as buildings, roads, transportation systems, health and electricity grids, allows them to = =20 be =93smart=94 and save energy, assist the aging, improve safety and adapt to new ideas. These =20 infrastructures can also lower the barriers to entrepreneurial activities and provide means for the = =20 efficient and =93green=94 delivery of energy, mobility and important social services =96 training, job sear= ch =20 and networking. Given the costs involved in fibre deployment it is fairly certain tha= t =20 outside the dense urban areas the market will not be able to support more than one fibre base= d =20 network. The exception may be in markets which already have well developed and ubiquitous, cable= =20 TV infrastructures which may provide an alternative and competing platform. Governments, both = =20 central and municipal, can play an important role by facilitating investment, e.g. through publi= c-=20 private partnerships which stimulate development of nationwide high speed broadband networks. = =20 However, when the public pays for broadband investment they should expect to benefit from = =20 improved service and greater choice in the market place. One means to accomplish this is to ensure= =20 that networks built or augmented using any public funding are available via =93open access= =94 =20 rules meaning network providers offer access or capacity to all market participants at cost= -=20 based, non-discriminatory terms." I can agree with what is said in the preceding two paragraphs. Dave Begin forwarded message: =46rom: dewayne@warpspeed.com (Dewayne Hendricks) Date: June 10, 2009 11:41:12 PM EDT To: Dewayne-Net Technology List Subject: [Dewayne-Net] OECD: Broadband Stimulus Investments Must be = =20 Coupled with Network Neutrality OECD: BROADBAND STIMULUS INVESTMENTS MUST BE COUPLED WITH NETWORK = =20 NEUTRALITY The current crisis could also have negative effects on the =20 communication sector which has been investing in high speed broadband= =20 networks and next generation switching technology. Investment in high= =20 speed broadband communication networks that are part of economic = =20 stimulus packages must be accompanied by regulatory frameworks which = =20 support open access to networks and competition in the market. Such = =20 investment should also aim at stimulating the use of information and = =20 communication technologies (ICTs) to secure economic and social =20 benefits. Linking ICT investment with other large physical =20 infrastructure investment, such as buildings, roads, transportation = =20 systems, health and electricity grids, allows them to be "smart" and = =20 save energy, assist the aging, improve safety and adapt to new ideas.= =20 These infrastructures can also lower the barriers to entrepreneurial = =20 activities and provide means for the efficient and "green" delivery o= f =20 energy, mobility and important social services - training, job search= =20 and networking. Given the costs involved in fibre deployment it is = =20 fairly certain that outside the dense urban areas the market will not= =20 be able to support more than one fibre based network. The exception = =20 may be in markets which already have well developed and ubiquitous, = =20 cable TV infrastructures which may provide an alternative and =20 competing platform. Governments, both central and municipal, can play= =20 an important role by facilitating investment, e.g. through public-= =20 private partnerships which stimulate development of nationwide high = =20 speed broadband networks. However, when the public pays for broadband= =20 investment they should expect to benefit from improved service and = =20 greater choice in the market place. One means to accomplish this is t= o =20 ensure that networks built or augmented using any public funding are = =20 available via "open access" rules meaning network providers offer = =20 access or capacity to all market participants at cost-based, non-= =20 discriminatory terms. Courtesy of the Benton Foundation RSS Feed: -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Jun 12 13:13:55 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL400E01YIZCD@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:13:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL400E01YI19F@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:13:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL400A01WZ86E@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:40:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KL4005ISWZHY7@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:40:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.38]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AD604041 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:47:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 197114EEE for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:47:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD98E2F411 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:43:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (JACKFRUIT.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.201.16]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D8CC2F410 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:43:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.106] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n5CGgcsw003111 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:43:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:43:22 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: GM's New Chairman -- You Won't Drive on My Roads for Free To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.201.16 X-Listbox-UUID: 26226406-5770-11DE-8B3F-EFF86FAD805B X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <6A424DE0AE59154CBAD11F78618CD76958B00EE2E0@DHX7MBX.campus.csudh.edu> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Larry Press Date: June 12, 2009 12:01:47 PM EDT To: "dave@farber.net" Cc: "ip@v2.listbox.com" Subject: Re: [IP] GM's New Chairman -- You Won't Drive on My Roads for Free > Who says there is no cosmic irony in the bland world of telecom? On > the day after thousands and thousands of pages were filed with the > Federal Communications Commission (FCC) on a new national broadband > plan, General Motors announced its new post-bankruptcy chairman -- Ed > Whitacre, the former chairman of AT&T. It is also ironic that someone who put the interest of AT&T above that of the government and society now runs a company in which the government is the major stockholder. Lar -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Jun 12 13:13:56 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL400E01YIZCD@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:13:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL400E01YI19F@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:13:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL400A01X21GE@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:42:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KL40096IX21SP@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:42:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.49]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C60B745E4 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:48:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B616A4DEB for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:48:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 791FC2F426 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:45:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B69F2F425 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:45:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.106] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n5CGj5vG017534 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:45:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:45:04 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: BT Heavily Throttling BBC, All Video To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <300491C2-3B98-4853-A4B6-621BF45EB2A3@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 634DEA6C-5770-11DE-B899-DA20AF32F0EA X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <200906121618.KAA02713@lariat.net> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Brett Glass Date: June 12, 2009 12:17:37 PM EDT To: dave@farber.net, "ip" Subject: Re: [IP] BT Heavily Throttling BBC, All Video At 08:57 AM 6/12/2009, David Burstein wrote: > This is a major carrier whose video lead has just resigned under > fire (below) because they aren't getting enough customers, and is > actively cutting competitive video down to half the usual bit rate There is no need to claim anticompetitive tactics here. The simple fact is that P2P takes the carrier's bandwidth, for the content provider's benefit, without permission or compensation. My ISP -- which cannot be accused of favoring its own video business because we do not provide any ourselves -- was on the cutting edge of managing this problem because our backbone bandwidth costs are particularly high. Some larger providers, such as BT, were able to absorb the impact at first simply because they had lower bandwidth costs and deep pockets. Ultimately, however, the bigger the provider is, the more service is taken from it due to heavy P2P if it does not do P2P mitigation. And, thus, the greater its losses. As I mentioned in my testimony before the FCC a year ago, iPlayer has created a huge problem in the UK in particular because of the BBC's wealth of programming. For an explanation of why this is a serious problem and why ISPs are justified in doing something about it, also see my slides and testimony from that hearing at http://www.brettglass.com/FCC/remarks.html The article quoted by David also makes the false claim that > while increased video use is driving traffic growth, the cost of the > routers, Internet peering/transit etc. is going down about as fast. > The cost per customer of bandwidth has been about flat for several > years, about $1/month/customer at a carrier like BT. Unfortunately, this is incorrect ( they are reporting UK djf) Due to increasing concentration in the market for Internet backbone bandwidth, the prices per megabit we are being quoted, as an ISP, are actually increasing. What's more, the cost of a router goes up exponentially, rather than linearly, with the load it can handle. Today's routers are being taxed even by legitimate video traffic, let alone P2P. --Brett Glass -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Jun 12 13:13:57 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL400E01YIZCD@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:13:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL400E01YI19F@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:13:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL400A01X2ZHW@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:42:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KL4005P3X2ZNZ@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:42:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (unknown [208.72.237.63]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 020652236 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:49:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by d-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DED3D3DC8 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:49:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C9D12F42F for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:45:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E5B12F42E for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:45:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.106] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n5CGj5vH017534 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:45:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:45:41 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: British libel law strikes again To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 78B64FAC-5770-11DE-9EFE-954C73AE94ED X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <153B09D8-380B-47F2-971D-6E805366AC29@espace.net> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Fearghas McKay Date: June 12, 2009 12:01:31 PM EDT To: dave@farber.net Cc: Fearghas McKay , "ip" Subject: Re: [IP] Re: British libel law strikes again On 12 Jun 2009, at 12:37, David Farber wrote: > For example courts would reject a claim where the defendant points > out that there is a more appropriate jurisdiction for a case, and > also past precedent that a few page views (or maybe downloads?) > (from a foreign site?) do not constitute publishing... Lord Justice Eady would probably beg to differ based on his recent rulings. Since he is the Learned Judge that appears to be creating the concern I think I would be inclined to worry about him rather some lawyer who is just expressing an opinion as opposed to making the judgement as Justice Eady is doing repeatedly. f -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Jun 12 16:04:54 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL5008016G3KI@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 16:04:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL5008016G0KB@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 12 Jun 2009 16:04:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL400G01ZEEU1@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:33:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KL40093SZEEEV@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:32:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.49]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C2AF43A4 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:39:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 073E34397 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:39:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02C822F673 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:35:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (JACKFRUIT.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.201.16]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8EB52F672 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:35:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n5CHYmoY008725 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:35:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:35:29 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: The iPhone 3G S (I have never been less excited djf) To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <57F7F912-8B09-4F52-B3BB-07FFB969A8CF@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_9GIaxhPZVI1wQJMNiMPGxg)" X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.201.16 X-Listbox-UUID: 6D61E240-5777-11DE-BD3B-B74917428B4B X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <012701c9eb7f$f8083070$e8189150$@frankston.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_9GIaxhPZVI1wQJMNiMPGxg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Begin forwarded message: =46rom: "Bob Frankston" Date: June 12, 2009 1:05:19 PM EDT To: , "'ip'" Cc: "'charles.brownstein'" Subject: RE: [IP] Re: The iPhone 3G S (I have never been less = =20 excited djf) The bigger point is that the current funding model is a form of =20 indentured servitude. While in a normal market such bundling is a = =20 reasonable option as when you bundle the cost of a seat into the cost= =20 of a meal at a restaurant. But until we have an open and transparent = =20 marketplace we should make the financing of the phone an explicit lin= e =20 item in the cellular bill and offer a discount to those who BYOP = =20 (Bring Your Own Phone). We do have a precedent in the lawsuits over = =20 the carriers=92 when they continued to lease land lines for 20 years = =20 after divestiture. If you have to pay $100/month for 2 years a $199 phone is $2600. If w= e =20 treated it as say a $700 loand + $1900 then people could make rationa= l =20 decisions. =46rom: David Farber [mailto:dave@farber.net] Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 07:36 To: ip Subject: [IP] Re: The iPhone 3G S (I have never been less excited djf= ) Begin forwarded message: =46rom: "charles.brownstein" Date: June 11, 2009 11:08:37 PM EDT To: dave@farber.net Subject: Re: [IP] The iPhone 3G S (I have never been less excited dj= f) "Yeah, not going to happen this time around" could be a good market = =20 slogan - for the competition. On Jun 8, 2009, at 4:25 PM, David Farber wrote: http://www.mobilecrunch.com/2009/06/08/official-the-iphone-3gs/#more-= 14182 Update: Remember how last year AT&T let current iPhone owners upgrade= =20 without penalty. Yeah, not going to happen this time around. From the iPhone product page down in the fine print: Requires new two-year AT&T wireless service contract, sold separately= =20 to qualified customers; credit check required; must be 18 or older. = =20 For non-qualified customers, including existing AT&T customers who = =20 want to upgrade from another phone or replace an iPhone 3G, the price= =20 with a new two-year agreement is $499 (8GB), $599 (16GB), or $699 = =20 (32GB). Archives =09 Archives =09 ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_9GIaxhPZVI1wQJMNiMPGxg) Content-type: multipart/related; boundary="Boundary_(ID_Vcl87+IJ1ggzrF7J5biUgA)"; type="text/html" --Boundary_(ID_Vcl87+IJ1ggzrF7J5biUgA) Content-type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

Begin forwarded message:

From: "Bob Frankston" <Bob19-0501@bobf.frankston.c= om>
Date: June 12, 2009 1:05:19 PM EDT
Cc: "'charles.brownstein'" <charles.brownstein@verizon.net>=
<= b>Subject: RE: [IP] Re:   The iPhone 3G S  (I have never been less excited djf)

The bigger point is that the current funding= model is a form of indentured servitude. While in a normal market su= ch bundling is a reasonable option as when you bundle the cost of a s= eat into the cost of a meal at a restaurant. But until we have an ope= n and transparent marketplace we should make the financing of the pho= ne an explicit line item in the cellular bill and offer a discount to= those who BYOP (Bring Your Own Phone). We do have a precedent in the= lawsuits over the carriers=92 when they continued to lease land line= s for 20 years after divestiture.
&n= bsp;
If you have to pay $100/month for 2 years a= $199 phone is $2600. If we treated it as say a $700 loand + $1900 th= en people could make rational decisions.
 
 
<= div style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; fo= nt-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: = 0.0001pt; "> 
 
 
Begin fo= rwarded message:
 =
Da= te: June= 11, 2009 11:08:37 PM EDT
To: <= /span>dave@farber.net
Subject: Re: [IP] Th= e iPhone 3G S  (I have never been les= s excited djf)
 

"Yeah, not going to happen this time around" could be = a good market slogan - for the competition.   

 
 
On Jun 8, 20= 09, at 4:25 PM, David Farber wrote:
&nbs= p;
 
 

Update: Remember how l= ast year AT&T let current iPhone owners upgrade without penalty. = Yeah, not going to happen this time around.

From the iPhone product page down in th= e fine print:

Requires new two-year AT&T wireless service contra= ct, sold separately to qualified customers; credit check required; mu= st be 18 or older. For non-qualified customers, including existing AT= &T customers who want to upgrade from another phone or replace an= iPhone 3G, the price with a new two-year agreement is $499 (8GB), $5= 99 (16GB), or $699 (32GB).

<= tr>=
<= /tbody>
 
=
 
Archives <= /span>
=
 

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Fri, 12 Jun 2009 16:04:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL5008016G0KB@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 12 Jun 2009 16:04:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL400G01ZG9WA@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:33:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KL4009HHZG9SP@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:33:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.49]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BD7849F8 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:40:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED4284A2E for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:40:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE80145D4 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:34:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (JACKFRUIT.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.201.16]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33FEE45D2 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:34:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n5CHYmoX008725 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:34:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:34:47 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: GM's New Chairman -- You Won't Drive on My Roads for Free To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <8AA3D44D-C0EB-48D5-A925-18FE00C68CC7@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.201.16 X-Listbox-UUID: 5739AC50-5777-11DE-AB1F-BEFABCDB0776 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Adam Thornton Date: June 12, 2009 12:56:42 PM EDT To: dave@farber.net Subject: Re: [IP] Re: GM's New Chairman -- You Won't Drive on My Roads for Free For IP, if you like. On Jun 12, 2009, at 11:43 AM, David Farber wrote: > It is also ironic that someone who put the interest of AT&T above > that of the government and society now runs a company in which the > government is the major stockholder. Given how cheerfully and happily AT&T complied with warrantless wiretap demands from the Bush administration, it seems to me that the interests of AT&T and the government were both respected, with only society getting the shaft. In which case, he's *perfect* for the GM job. Adam -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Sat Jun 13 08:35:35 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL600N01GB74A@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 08:35:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL600N01GB23Z@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Sat, 13 Jun 2009 08:35:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL500O01C5ZSQ@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:08:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KL500JMPC5YY0@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:08:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E67C23F3 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:15:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 410BE40AB for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:15:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD87C2F730 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:11:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (JACKFRUIT.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.201.16]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05AF82F72F for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:11:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.106] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n5CMBOU5026322 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:11:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:11:24 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: BT Heavily Throttling BBC, All Video To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.201.16 X-Listbox-UUID: FAB9CD9E-579D-11DE-A54B-D17FDCA3C142 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <4A32B307.8040503@reed.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 editor's note For the record, I do not consider it part of my editorial duties to adjudicate opinions among the members of this West. I am sure there are many members of the list who are willing to do this for me Dave Begin forwarded message: From: "David P. Reed" Date: June 12, 2009 3:56:55 PM EDT To: dave@farber.net Cc: ip Subject: Re: [IP] Re: BT Heavily Throttling BBC, All Video Talk about spinning, Dave. I am surprised you don't call Brett out on this boner. He continues to state flat-out falsehoods as "fact" and you just forward them without comment. When are you going to point out that all Brett does is troll and spin? Brett Glass wrote: > The simple fact is that P2P takes the carrier's bandwidth, for the > content provider's benefit, without permission or compensation. > There is no "fact" here. There is no such thing as generic "P2P" - there are specific peer-to-peer algorithms and applications. Assuming Brett means a specific system called BitTorrent, which I will use for example, the actual factual basis of this claim are 100% false. They are not even close to true: 1. Both the content provider and the users *pay* for the transport of *all* bits sent in P2P. And they pay good money. If 100 people are receiving a large file from a content provider, there are 101 payments going to ISPs, all of which are paying for transport, and substantial sums of money at that. 2. The end users of a system pay for Internet connectivity from their ISP, content providers pay for Internet connectivity from their ISP, and ISPs pay each other to peer. Lots of payments change hands, and the ability of everyone to set prices is perfectly flexible, since no antitrust rules have been applied to this market. 3. Conventionally, Internet access means that any host on the Internet can send packets to any other host on the Internet. Packets are delivered on a "best efforts" basis, which means that they either get there or they don't, with the latter case occurring only when there are too many packets demanding to be delivered through a particular rate-constrained path. BitTorrent cannot use any more capacity between two end users than their ISP provides. The ISP can limit capacity based on its contract with each user. Thus, there is no lack of "permission" (since permission to send packets is *inherent* in providing Internet access, by definition), and there is no lack of payment. As a BitTorrent distribution of some content grows to support N users, each user's contribution stays constant. They cannot exceed their ISP's willingness to grant capacity. So where are the "facts" Brett cites, Dave? -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Sat Jun 13 08:35:36 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL600N01GB74A@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 08:35:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL600N01GB23Z@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Sat, 13 Jun 2009 08:35:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL500O01C78TO@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:09:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KL500NDQC78RV@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:09:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAB1F2782 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:16:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B850E4459 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:16:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58E1C430 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:12:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (JACKFRUIT.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.201.16]) by a-lb-mx-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C05942E for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:12:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.106] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n5CMBOU6026322 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:12:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:12:09 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: GM's New Chairman -- You Won't Drive on My Roads for Free To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.201.16 X-Listbox-UUID: 1416F794-579E-11DE-AF89-977A67BD9A60 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <47E96BE330424DBDA189050E3936BF62@QuarkE6400> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: "Ronald J Riley \(RJR Com\)" Date: June 12, 2009 3:34:42 PM EDT To: Subject: RE: [IP] Re: GM's New Chairman -- You Won't Drive on My Roads for Free It is my view that telecoms and auto are cut from the same cloth. Both are companies that have lost their edge. GM is an example of what happens to companies who cannot or will not keep their business model relevant. Both the auto industry and telecom have long histories of misappropriating others inventions. What happens to companies who no longer produce the inventions they need to survive and who intentionally alienate those who are producing those inventions? What happens when industries collectively drive inventors to work in other areas? For many years I have been comparing upper management in stagnating industries to teenage boys. They have big egos and exercise little thought before engaging them. They are short term gain oriented, and they have a marginally developed sense of ethics. They ride their companies right into the ground. Auto companies are failing because of this and telecoms have been showing the same traits which destroyed the auto companies. Both refuse to adapt to changing market conditions. Ronald J. Riley, Speaking only on my own behalf. President - www.PIAUSA.org - RJR at PIAUSA.org Executive Director - www.InventorEd.org - RJR at InvEd.org Senior Fellow - www.PatentPolicy.org President - Alliance for American Innovation Caretaker of Intellectual Property Creators on behalf of deceased founder Paul Heckel Washington, DC Direct (810) 597-0194 - (202) 318-1595 - 9 am to 8 pm EST. -----Original Message----- From: David Farber [mailto:dave@farber.net] Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 1:35 PM To: ip Subject: [IP] Re: GM's New Chairman -- You Won't Drive on My Roads for Free Begin forwarded message: From: Adam Thornton Date: June 12, 2009 12:56:42 PM EDT To: dave@farber.net Subject: Re: [IP] Re: GM's New Chairman -- You Won't Drive on My Roads for Free For IP, if you like. On Jun 12, 2009, at 11:43 AM, David Farber wrote: > It is also ironic that someone who put the interest of AT&T above that > of the government and society now runs a company in which the > government is the major stockholder. Given how cheerfully and happily AT&T complied with warrantless wiretap demands from the Bush administration, it seems to me that the interests of AT&T and the government were both respected, with only society getting the shaft. In which case, he's *perfect* for the GM job. Adam ------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Sat Jun 13 08:35:37 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL600N01GB74A@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 08:35:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL600N01GB23Z@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Sat, 13 Jun 2009 08:35:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL500001CODRQ@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:19:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KL500NNOCODRV@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:19:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.38]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C440C4022 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:26:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD42B452D for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:26:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEDEB2F829 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:20:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DDDD2F828 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:20:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.106] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n5CMKIfe004906 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:20:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:20:18 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: BT Heavily Throttling BBC, All Video To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <7ABD2C36-DB6E-4EC2-AF0A-AA11EAB2DAAE@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 37D614E8-579F-11DE-B881-AC33D0E355F0 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <4A32AD7A.8070404@new-isp.net> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 I believe that is correct djf Begin forwarded message: From: ken Date: June 12, 2009 3:33:14 PM EDT To: dave@farber.net Subject: Re: [IP] Re: BT Heavily Throttling BBC, All Video Brett, (et al) If I am not mistaken BT is complaining about YouTube and BBC streaming video clips and P2P has nothing to do with this bandwidth throttling action. Respectfully, Ken DiPietro LaVale MD Brett Glass wrote: > There is no need to claim anticompetitive tactics here. The simple > fact > is that P2P takes the carrier's bandwidth, for the content provider's > benefit, without permission or compensation. -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Sat Jun 13 08:35:38 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL600N01GB74A@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 08:35:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL600N01GB23Z@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Sat, 13 Jun 2009 08:35:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL600A012AOZZ@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 03:32:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KL6008DF2AOWM@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 03:32:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (unknown [208.72.237.63]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43C222E12 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 03:39:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by d-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 390064305 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 03:39:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 793502FF5F for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 03:36:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED3532FF5E for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 03:36:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n5D7a0FA018840 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 03:36:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 03:35:59 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Cyberwar - Privacy May Be a Victim in Cyberdefense Plan - Series - NYTimes.com To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0B55B299-B5EB-4866-910C-4315D55D7B09@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_F5Y3Um+pEPR/zBz02C9E7Q)" X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: D889308A-57EC-11DE-8320-C49D1CE53ADB X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_F5Y3Um+pEPR/zBz02C9E7Q) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/13/us/politics/13cyber.html?hpw ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_F5Y3Um+pEPR/zBz02C9E7Q) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/13/us/politics/13cyber.html?hpw

--Boundary_(ID_F5Y3Um+pEPR/zBz02C9E7Q)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Sat Jun 13 23:57:05 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL700901MZ26S@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 23:57:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL700901MYZ6J@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Sat, 13 Jun 2009 23:56:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL7000014IEZD@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 17:18:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KL70004W4IEH5@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 17:18:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.38]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8217F4CD5 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 17:25:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D41F4B99 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 17:25:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDD642F704 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 17:21:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A10F2F702 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 17:21:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n5DLLOre010307 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 17:21:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 17:21:24 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Whitacre running GM? To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <10A4E2E9-455D-4848-867B-59EC49FF096D@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 27D8A9EA-5860-11DE-B4FB-9CE7A7FC84E5 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: dewayne@warpspeed.com (Dewayne Hendricks) Date: June 12, 2009 7:50:08 PM EDT To: Dewayne-Net Technology List Subject: [Dewayne-Net] Whitacre running GM? [Note: This item comes from reader Mike O'Dell. DLH] From: mo@ccr.org (Mike O'Dell) Date: June 12, 2009 4:10:53 PM PDT To: dewayne@warpspeed.com Subject: Whitacre running GM? i can just imagine cars with "speed caps" - you have to pay more every month to go above 35mph, then another tier at 45, 55, 65, and 75mph, with 75 being marketted as "unlimited". jeeze - i cannot imagine who believed this would be a good idea. the problem with GM is that they haven't had an original thought in half a century, so they go hire a guy from a company that has not had an original thought in an *entire* century? egads -mo RSS Feed: -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Mon Jun 15 08:32:16 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KLA009015CMQ0@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 08:29:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KLA009015CJP8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Mon, 15 Jun 2009 08:29:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL800101R1ISR@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 14:22:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KL8000A1R1IU9@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 14:22:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9445F3877 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 14:29:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 850C850D9 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 14:29:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F58741A2 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 14:23:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76FC341A1 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 14:23:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.106] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n5EINrD8026453 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 14:23:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 14:23:52 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Patient Money - Your Medical Problems Could Include Identity Theft - NYTimes.com To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <36223B07-7272-4544-92C4-7D72DC858199@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_L89qpxDfUR+6b7u0BmaRlw)" X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 868149E2-5910-11DE-B7BE-8D05BDDB0776 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_L89qpxDfUR+6b7u0BmaRlw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/13/health/13patient.html?hpw ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_L89qpxDfUR+6b7u0BmaRlw) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/13/health/13patient.html?hpw

--Boundary_(ID_L89qpxDfUR+6b7u0BmaRlw)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Mon Jun 15 08:32:17 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KLA009015CMQ0@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 08:29:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KLA009015CJP8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Mon, 15 Jun 2009 08:29:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL9009016CNIE@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 19:53:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KL9004OD6CNUU@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 19:53:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A1AF39A1 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:00:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38560495F for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:00:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AA224B2E for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 19:56:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AE8D4B2D for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 19:56:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n5ENu7Km009165 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 19:56:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 19:56:26 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] REAL ID getting scaled back possibly To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <84EF30D3-328D-4F65-8C7E-2B0775521535@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: FB5AF74E-593E-11DE-9B87-FE39BDDB0776 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <38AD153A-68BF-45C7-A592-FD323ADE54A6@infowarrior.org> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Richard Forno Date: June 14, 2009 6:53:59 PM EDT To: Undisclosed-recipients: <>; Cc: Dave Farber Subject: REAL ID getting scaled back possibly Administration Plans to Scale Back Real ID Law By Spencer S. Hsu Washington Post Staff Writer Sunday, June 14, 2009 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/13/AR2009061302036_pf.html Yielding to a rebellion by states that refused to pay for it, the Obama administration is moving to scale back a federal law passed after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks that was designed to tighten security requirements for driver's licenses, Homeland Security Department and congressional officials said. Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano wants to repeal and replace the controversial, $4 billion domestic security initiative known as Real ID, which calls for placing more secure licenses in the hands of 245 million Americans by 2017. The new proposal, called Pass ID, would be cheaper, less rigorous and partly funded by federal grants, according to draft legislation that Napolitano's Senate allies plan to introduce as early as tomorrow. The rebranding effort follows months of talks with the National Governors Association and poses political risk for Obama as well as Napolitano, a former NGA chairwoman who wants to soothe strained relations with the states without appearing to retreat on a recommendation by the 9/11 Commission. Commissioners called for federal standards for driver's licenses and birth certificates, noting, "For terrorists, travel documents are as important as weapons." Eighteen of 19 terrorist hijackers obtained state IDs, some of them fraudulently, easing their movements inside the country. But the Bush administration struggled to implement the 2005 law, delaying the program repeatedly as states called it an unfunded mandate and privacy advocates warned it would create a de facto national ID. As governor of Arizona, Napolitano called Real ID "feel-good" legislation not worth the cost, and she signed a state law last year opting out of the plan. As secretary, she said a substitute would "accomplish some of the same goals." Eleven states have refused to participate in Real ID despite a Dec. 31 federal deadline. "The department's goal is to fix, not repeal" Real ID, allowing all jurisdictions to comply by year's end, said a DHS official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity before a formal announcement. "If the law cannot be implemented, it is hard to claim that it increases security," said David Quam, lobbyist for the NGA. The new plan keeps elements of Real ID, such as requiring a digital photograph, signature and machine-readable features such as a bar code. States also will still need to verify applicants' identities and legal status by checking federal immigration, Social Security and State Department databases. But it eliminates demands for new databases -- linked through a national data hub -- that would allow all states to store and cross- check such information, and a requirement that motor vehicle departments verify birth certificates with originating agencies, a bid to fight identity theft. Instead, it adds stronger privacy controls and limits such development to a pilot program in Mississippi. DHS would have nine months to write new regulations, and states would have five years to reissue all licenses, with completion expected in 2016. Supporters saw a slimmer measure as better than nothing. But critics said the changes gut the law, weakening tools to fight fraud and learn whether bad drivers, drug runners or counterfeiters have licenses in more than one state. "Real ID, not a gutted version with a tough-sounding name, is necessary to continue to keep us safe," said Rep. Lamar Smith (Tex.), the ranking Republican member of the House Judiciary Committee. "Any attempt to repeal or weaken [Real ID] will harm national security." The new plan would still let people get licenses with fake documents, said Rep. F. James Sensenbrenner Jr. (R-Wis.), who authored the 2005 legislation. "We go right back to where we were on Sept. 10, 2001," he said, "Maybe governors should have been in the Capitol when we knew a plane was on its way to Washington wanting to kill a few thousand more people." Pass ID also penalizes states that have spent millions to digitize their records, rewards laggards with federal funds and makes new requirements unenforceable, foes said. For example, the new bill kills provisions that would have required the new IDs to board airplanes and that IDs that did not comply with the requirements feature a different color or design. Meanwhile, privacy groups also objected, saying Real ID should just be killed. "We don't want to end up with National ID Lite," said Chris Calabrese, counsel to the technology and liberty program at the American Civil Liberties Union. Jim Harper, director of information policy studies at the libertarian Cato Institute, said the plan is "a lot softer" but will still leave more Americans' personal data subject to theft and misuse. Sens. Daniel K. Akaka (D-Hawaii) and George V. Voinovich (R-Ohio), the bill's sponsors, are seeking support from Sens. Joseph I. Lieberman (I- Conn.) and Susan Collins (Maine), the chairman and ranking Republican, respectively, on the Senate homeland security committee, and other centrist lawmakers. So far, no other Republicans have signed on. -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Mon Jun 15 08:32:18 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KLA009015CMQ0@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 08:29:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KLA009015CJP8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Mon, 15 Jun 2009 08:29:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL9009016FIPL@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 19:54:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KL90091O6FIIP@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 19:54:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.38]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C44F456C for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:02:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 323345CC4 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:02:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1899230554 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 19:56:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4505D30553 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 19:56:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n5ENu7Kl009165 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 19:56:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 19:56:07 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Internet routing around post-election Iranian government blocking To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: EED73AF0-593E-11DE-9038-83CAB0E19771 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <20090614232440.GA13709@vortex.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Lauren Weinstein Date: June 14, 2009 7:24:40 PM EDT To: dave@farber.net Subject: Internet routing around post-election Iranian government blocking Dave, as you no doubt are aware, demonstrations in Iran are flaring in the wake of what is widely suspected to be major election fraud. One of the first steps of the Iranian government during and after the election was to restrict mobile (cell calls, texting) and Internet access. In response to this, new open proxies are appearing around the Net for Iranian protesters to use, e.g.: 69.92.182.124:2100 --Lauren-- Lauren Weinstein lauren@vortex.com Tel: +1 (818) 225-2800 http://www.pfir.org/lauren Co-Founder, PFIR - People For Internet Responsibility - http://www.pfir.org Co-Founder, NNSquad - Network Neutrality Squad - http://www.nnsquad.org Founder, GCTIP - Global Coalition for Transparent Internet Performance - http://www.gctip.org Founder, PRIVACY Forum - http://www.vortex.com Member, ACM Committee on Computers and Public Policy Lauren's Blog: http://lauren.vortex.com Twitter: https://twitter.com/laurenweinstein -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Mon Jun 15 08:32:19 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KLA009015CMQ0@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 08:29:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KLA009015CJP8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Mon, 15 Jun 2009 08:29:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KL900H01B6ZZE@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 21:37:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KL900ES4B6ZJK@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 21:37:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.38]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B8114FD6 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 21:44:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FFD243C2 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 21:44:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E448A30AC4 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 21:40:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 140B630AC3 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 21:40:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n5F1erLx010212 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 21:40:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 21:40:53 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: Cyberwar - Privacy May Be a Victim in Cyberdefense Plan - Series - NYTimes.com To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <87169263-A9DE-47E8-B6FA-5434CEAA12C9@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_Hnd8N7kEnJMUXlM0qAp5Dw)" X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 9212E0C6-594D-11DE-87A7-856DC346E1C8 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <35186d2c0906131926x5206bc5dv756abbc6ad188f38@mail.gmail.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_Hnd8N7kEnJMUXlM0qAp5Dw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Begin forwarded message: From: Stewart Baker Date: June 13, 2009 10:26:21 PM EDT To: dave@farber.net Subject: Re: [IP] Cyberwar - Privacy May Be a Victim in Cyberdefense Plan - Series - NYTimes.com My take as blogged on homelandreadinglist: The Washington Post decides that the new cyber-command is mainly interesting because it is an opportunity to raise privacy concerns. Here's the lead: The Pentagon's development of a "cyber-command" is prompting questions about its role in the larger national strategy to protect government and private-sector computer networks and whether privacy can be protected. And the command is fueling debate over the proper rules to govern a new kind of warfare in which unannounced adversaries using bits of computer code can launch transnational attacks. We're actually closer to 1984 than most people realize. Antidemocratic forces have the ability to turn on cameras in our homes and offices -- to monitor our every action and every keystroke. That's the lesson of the ghostnet report. http://www.scribd.com/doc/13731776/Tracking-GhostNet-Investigating-a-Cyber-Espionage-Network But you won't find any sign of that problem in today's story. That's because the 1984ish powers aren't being exercised by the US government or NSA. And apparently there's no room in the Post for a story that doesn't make the US and NSA the chief privacy villains. On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 3:35 AM, David Farber wrote: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/13/us/politics/13cyber.html?hpw Archives -- Stewart Baker 202-641-8670 ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_Hnd8N7kEnJMUXlM0qAp5Dw) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

Begin for= warded message:

From: Stewart Baker <stewa= rt.baker@gmail.com>
Date: June 13, 2009 10:26:21 P= M EDT
Subject: Re: [IP] Cyberwar - Privacy May Be a= Victim in Cyberdefense Plan -&= nbsp; Series - NYTimes.com

My take as blogged on homelandre= adinglist:

The Washington Post decides that the new cyber-comm= and is mainly interesting because it is an opportunity to raise priva= cy concerns. Here's the lead:


The Pentagon's de= velopment of a "cyber-command" is prompting questions
about its ro= le in the larger national strategy to protect government
and priva= te-sector computer networks and whether privacy can be
protected.= And the command is fueling debate over the proper rules to
govern= a new kind of warfare in which unannounced adversaries using
bits= of computer code can launch transnational attacks.

We're actually closer to 1984 than most people realize. Antidemocr= atic forces have the ability to turn on cameras in our homes and offi= ces -- to monitor our every action and every keystroke. That's the le= sson of the ghostnet report. http= ://www.scribd.com/doc/13731776/Tracking-GhostNet-Investigating-a-Cybe= r-Espionage-Network

But you won't find any sign of that pr= oblem in today's story.

Tha= t's because the 1984ish powers aren't being exercised by the US gover= nment or NSA. And apparently there's no room in the Post for a story = that doesn't make the US and NSA the chief privacy villains.

<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 3:35 AM, David Farb= er <dave@farb= er.net> wrote:
 




--
S= tewart Baker
202-641-8670

Archives<= /a>
Archives
--Boundary_(ID_Hnd8N7kEnJMUXlM0qAp5Dw)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Mon Jun 15 16:16:05 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KLA00H01QYRB1@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 16:16:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KLA00H01QYO92@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Mon, 15 Jun 2009 16:16:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KLA00F017MM2L@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 09:18:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KLA007M57MM59@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 09:18:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61F0A3630 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 09:25:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B25152BC for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 09:25:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 326A3401 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 09:24:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (JACKFRUIT.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.201.16]) by a-lb-mx-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E4EC400 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 09:24:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CMU-338692.WV.CC.CMU.EDU (CMU-338692.WV.CC.CMU.EDU [128.237.229.179]) (authenticated bits=0) by jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n5FDOXhP020239 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 09:24:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 09:24:33 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: Patient Money - Your Medical Problems Could Include Identity Theft - NYTimes.com To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.201.16 X-Listbox-UUID: DEC228CA-59AF-11DE-92D2-8CB19C15FA6C X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <35186d2c0906141149t264043e6lb88a4d0f686fc080@mail.gmail.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: =46rom: Stewart Baker Date: June 14, 2009 2:49:30 PM EDT To: dave@farber.net Subject: Re: [IP] Patient Money - Your Medical Problems Could Include= =20 Identity Theft - NYTimes.com A portion of my posts about medical ID theft, which suggest that the privacy groups helped cause the problem. So here's an SAT-type question: doctors are to iatrogenic disease as privacy campaigners are to ---- ? Stewart Baker Identity theft can kill you? Yep. How so? Well, first, medical ID theft is a growing problem. Here's a fascinating report on this undercovered problem: http://www.worldprivacyforum.org/pdf/wpf_medicalidtheft2006.pdf It turns out that doctors and nurses with a drug problem make fake entries in patient files to justify prescriptions that they fill for themselves. Medicare and Medicaid fraudsters concoct entire courses o= f treatment for real people and bill for them. And illegal immigrants who wouldn't be eligible for services on their own use the identities they've already stolen to get jobs as a way of getting treatment. That's bad, but what's especially troubling for ordinary citizens is the way it screws up their medical records. They may only find out about the fraud when they're told they've used up the lifetime health insurance limits they paid for. Or, worse, they could go in for treatment unconscious and be given a transfusion of the wrong blood type because their records had been altered to match the blood type o= f the identity thief. That's a pretty heavy price to pay for identity theft. And it's likely to get worse as the Administration's electroni= c medical record initiative takes hold, and medical records are increasingly consolidated into a single electronic patient history that is accessible by all providers. HIPAA, perhaps unsurprisingly, is more or less useless in addressing the problem. The privacy advocates who helped draft it were so busy abusing pharmaceutical companies and insurers that they evidently didn't have time to think about privacy violations that might kill us= . *** Wait! Does that mean the National Governors Association is going to = =20 kill us? The medical identity theft report I cited earlier shows a startling connection between medical identity theft, REAL ID, and the National Governor's Association. The report contains this charmingly clueless passage about what healt= h care providers are doing to stop medical ID theft. Some providers at Kaiser Permanente, a health network with 30 medical centers and 431 medical offices, now ask to see a driver=92s license in addition to the program=92s health card. The University of Connecticut Health Center, concerned after a case of medical identity theft occurred there, began checking patient driver=92s licenses. That would be a great idea if driver's licenses were actually a secur= e form of identification. But they aren't. They suffer from a variety o= f bad security practices that make it easy to get a real license issued in a false name. That's something that REAL ID was designed to fix. T= o take one example, it would have required states to actually perform a= n electronic validation of "breeder documents," like birth certificates= , before the documents could be used to obtain a license. But the National Governors Association doesn't want states to have to spend money improving driver's license security, and it bridles at th= e federal government setting standards for license security. NGA is leading the charge to repeal REAL ID and substitute a new driver's license law that would among other things eliminate any need for states to validate breeder documents. The NGA is likely to win that battle. If they succeed, of course, it will remain easy for people to get driver's licenses in other people's names. And then to get medical treatment in other people's names. And in the process to change the blood types on record for the poor sucker whose identity they've stolen with that driver's license. (The privacy advocates who neglected identity theft when HIPAA was passed are playing an even worse role here. The ACLU and others are campaigning to repeal REAL ID, and they've laid down covering fire fo= r the NGA's attack. So in the name of protecting privacy, they're makin= g the world safer for what could be deadly forms of privacy invasion.) So if you're wondering whether your governor is trying to kill you, the fairest answer is "Not exactly." That's just a side effect of the effort to unravel REAL ID. More at homelandreadinglist ... On 6/14/09, David Farber wrote: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/13/health/13patient.html?hpw > > > > > ------------------------------------------- > --=20 Stewart Baker 202-641-8670 -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Mon Jun 15 16:16:06 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KLA00H01QYRB1@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 16:16:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KLA00H01QYO92@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Mon, 15 Jun 2009 16:16:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KLA00601DK553@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 11:26:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KLA004BTDK53B@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 11:26:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (unknown [208.72.237.63]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D2C7381E for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 11:33:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by d-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F6CD4582 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 11:33:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F4EF89F for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 11:29:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by a-lb-mx-fastnet.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 410FC89E for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 11:29:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CMU-338692.WV.CC.CMU.EDU (CMU-338692.WV.CC.CMU.EDU [128.237.229.179]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n5FFTpGG016643 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 11:29:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 11:29:51 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: REAL ID getting scaled back possibly To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <871A8C47-8AD4-4EEE-B2E3-EA1C552C354C@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 5FE1D336-59C1-11DE-ADEB-CE413082AAFD X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <7AE324A2-9488-4687-A8DB-ACDB18F0B69B@espace.net> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: =46rom: Fearghas McKay Date: June 15, 2009 11:05:21 AM EDT To: dave@farber.net Cc: Fearghas McKay Subject: Re: [IP] REAL ID getting scaled back possibly There are similar things happening with the UK ID card scheme - it ha= s =20 been called in for review. The couple of articles below give some background. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/15/id_cards_johnson_review/ Johnson shuffle returns ID cards to the table U-turn ahoy? By John Oates =95 Get more from this author Posted in Government, 15th June 2009 08:58 GMT The fate of the UK's national ID card project is looking increasingly= =20 doubtful, although new Home Secretary Alan Johnson is unwilling to = =20 plunge the knife. Not yet. Johnson has begun a review of the multi-billion pound scheme and want= s =20 to look at it from "first principles". The new Home Secretary is apparently more open-minded on the scheme = =20 than his predecessor Jacqui Smith and wants to see the evidence. Spin= =20 doctors told theSunday Times: "Alan is more sympathetic to the civil = =20 liberties arguments than previous home secretaries." He will make his decision before the end of the summer. But by the time Johnson's aides got round to briefing The Guardian = =20 yesterday, the boss was more in favour of the cards. Or rather he's = =20 pressing ahead with the project, but doesn't intend to make carrying = =20 the cards compulsory. ... =09& http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/martin_ivens/arti= cle6493536.ece The Sunday Times June 14, 2009 Let's be honest about the state we're in Martin Ivens =2E.. Some influential Labour voices don=92t think a rerun of a scare campa= ign =20 about Tory cuts will save Brown this time. =93It=92s a complete misre= ading =20 of the public mood,=94 says a former minister. =93The public are = =20 tightening their belts, we are not. The voters will think that if = =20 government won=92t tighten its belt, then it will raise taxes.=94 Ala= n =20 Johnson, the new home secretary, may agree. He is calling in the = =20 government=92s disaster-prone and expensive ID-card scheme in for = =20 review. This project was once a Brown priority, but in his weakened = =20 state the prime minister is hardly in a position to discipline the ma= n =20 most likely to take his job should he fall under a bus driven by = =20 Charles Clarke, the backbench rebel... -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Mon Jun 15 23:43:16 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KLB00D01BO154@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 23:43:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KLB00D01BNX4T@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Mon, 15 Jun 2009 23:43:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KLA00901XCRNR@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 18:34:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KLA0089DXCRSQ@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 18:34:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.38]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 266925B69 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 18:41:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 167C15D66 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 18:41:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7F6B3055E for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 18:37:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (JACKFRUIT.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.201.16]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC1393055D for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 18:37:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n5FMbNuw016768 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 18:37:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 18:37:23 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Google enables caching in users' browsers but not by enterprises or ISPs To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <2EC52299-6E4B-44C3-9864-C0BDB922BBEC@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.201.16 X-Listbox-UUID: 19EB4F1A-59FD-11DE-913C-9A10A3B1C965 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <200906152231.QAA04629@lariat.net> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Brett Glass Date: June 15, 2009 6:31:05 PM EDT To: "David Farber" , "Ip ip" Cc: "Dewayne Hendricks" Subject: Google enables caching in users' browsers but not by enterprises or ISPs [Explanation expanded and typo in URL corrected - BG] Everyone: According to the blog posting at http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2009/06/browsers-cache-youtube-videos.html Google is now -- at long last -- enabling users' browsers to cache YouTube videos, rather than fetching them again each time they are played. Unfortunately, I have just verified that while a browser can now cache YouTube videos to allow for a faster replay, YouTube is still preventing caching of its video files by a standards-conforming Web cache, such as Squid, operated by a company, an academic institution, or an ISP upstream of the end user. It thus continues to prevent these entities from eliminating wasteful, duplicative downloads or from accelerating the retrieval of videos which are viewed by more than one user. While Google's blog claims that enabling browser caching is an "incredible" achievement, there does not seem to be much that is "incredible" here -- except, perhaps, an incredible waste of expensive bandwidth due to the company's continued failure to be compatible with Internet best practices and standards. For this reason, ISPs and enterprises may be well justified in limiting the bandwidth that YouTube can squander. Fortunately, the Squid Web caching software has a feature called "delay pools" that can do just that. Just add the following to the squid.conf configuration file: delay_pools 1 delay_class 1 1 acl youtube dstdomain .youtube.com delay_parameters 1 250000/250000 delay_access 1 allow youtube This limits YouTube to 1 Mbps of your valuable bandwidth. I would suggest that IT managers, especially at companies and universities, who don't want their bandwidth consumed by needlessly uncacheable content install these settings until Google puts an end to its current bandwidth-wasting practices. --Brett Glass -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Jun 16 08:16:06 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KLB00B01ZER2C@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 08:16:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KLB00B01ZEN1S@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 16 Jun 2009 08:15:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KLB00J01UIQXH@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 06:30:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KLB00IJBUIQDL@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 06:30:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8594330AA for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 06:37:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78BFC56CF for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 06:37:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 386E63003B for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 06:36:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55FFF3003A for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 06:36:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n5GAa6TC016628 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 06:36:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 06:36:36 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: What is "normal Internet service"? To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 92C8375E-5A61-11DE-87FF-ACD63ED7E858 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <200906160228.UAA06831@lariat.net> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Brett Glass Date: June 15, 2009 10:27:57 PM EDT To: "Steven M. Bellovin" , dave@farber.net, "Ip ip" Subject: Re: What is "normal Internet service"? At 06:24 PM 6/15/2009, Steven M. Bellovin wrote: > Brett, what do you see as "normal" Internet usage? For what class of user? We have lots of different classes of service, each tailored to a particular class of user. > You've spoken quite > negatively (and quite often!) in this forum about peer-to-peer, For good reason. Besides having been invented for the specific reason of facilitating piracy, it's a cost-shifting mechanism which shifts costs to ISPs without permission or compensation. > bandwidth management, An essential function for any ISP or enterprise. Bandwidth is a vital resource, and the most expensive one we buy. (I have just received the best offer I have ever gotten on backbone bandwidth: $76 per Mbps per month, and then only if we buy at least a DS-3 and lock the price in for two or three years. The really scary thing is that demand might force us to take it. We are seeing a bandwidth crunch in the evenings.) > etc. Today, you spoke of "the bandwidth that > YouTube can squander". But, like it or not, Youtube is one of the most > popular applications on the web. I'm not just being nit-picky when I note that YouTube isn't an application. It's a content provider. One of many with Web sites that host video. Adobe Flash Player is the application. > The question, then, is this: what is > the service that you and other similar ISPs intend to provide? At a minimum, good connectivity. But that's a commodity, so to be competitive one must add value to it. I already add some value to it by offering delivery to remote locations, security, support, equipment, and consulting. But I don't want to be limited to that. Whatever I decide that I want to provide (after asking my users and weighing whether it's feasible), I'd like to be able to provide. > What is your vision of what the Internet should be? The Internet has always been what it is now: a federation of independent network owners who exchange traffic via standard protocols. I do have a vision of how the Internet economy, the mix of applications delivered over it, etc. will evolve, but I'm not interested in forcing anyone else to conform to that vision (unlike some lobbyists who seem to want very much to do so). > To me, you seem to be > advocating the Internet of 10 years ago: relatively small transfers, > comparatively static (and hence cacheable) web pages, a download- > mostly > model, etc. All of those things simply mean efficiency. (Are you suggesting that anything that makes efficient use of resources is obsolete?) In any event, efficiency is key to my network, because bandwidth is exceedingly expensive here. I can make an economic case for serving areas that the big guys cannot serve precisely because my network is efficient. > I accept that your network is geared towards that, for both economic > and technical reasons. But it's quite clear that that's not the > product most people want to consume (albeit perhaps not pay for). Not true. Most people want basic Internet functions such as Web and e- mail. Some of them are leaning toward streaming video, but most are using the delivery mechanisms which are most efficient for video (satellite, CATV where it is available, over-the-air TV from our local analog translators) rather than trying to use the Internet for it (which is horribly inefficient at it; the cost is thousands of times greater per minute of video delivered). > How can these be reconciled? There isn't a conflict. If people really want to do something inefficient with the Internet, they can. But someone has to cover the cost, because bandwidth is quite expensive and we can't afford to waste it. Our basic residential services cost what they do because we expect to realize certain efficiencies. These include caching (to reduce our backbone bandwidth load) and moderate duty cycles (to allow oversale). Demand which violates these assumptions has to be handled via a more expensive tier of service, simply because it costs us more to deliver that service. We are not out to do anything evil; we just need to base prices on our costs. That's only fair. > I see two alternatives here. First, there is a regulatory approach: > applications that don't meet a certain model of the network are > banned. We don't ban applications. However, we do have certain classes of service in which certain costly behaviors, at the network level, are prohibited by contract. For example, our residential classes of service prohibit the operation of servers, including things like P2P and the Slingbox. Our business class services make fewer (or no) assumptions about economy, and therefore are priced higher but do not have these restrictions. The proponents of regulation seem to be bound and determined either to cause us to lose money or force us to raise our prices by forcing EVERY user into those higher tiers. > This seems unlikely in most countries. If nothing else, it > would freeze innovation -- to me and to many others, the beauty of the > Internet is that it encourages innovation at the edges. To me, the beauty of the Internet is that it allows innovation EVERYWHERE. It is Ludditism to banish innovation from the middle of the network and restrict it to the edges. If I did not innovate in the middle, my customers wouldn't be able to get service at all at the edges; those edges wouldn't reach them. > The other alternative is to let the market work its will. If the > costs > (and hence prices) for the service people want are too high, people > will scale back their expectations or demands. If others can offer a > service you cannot or will not, then those others will prosper at your > expense. There's nothing wrong with that. Absent anticompetitive tactics or overly broad patents, we can copy one another's successful ideas. > Your course, as best I can tell, has been load management: throttle > expensive requests to something you can afford without raising prices > too much. Users may or may not be satisfied with that in the long > term, but absent regulatory intervention the market will decide. Users would be even less satisfied with higher prices. > The one strategy you cannot pursue is to demand that others meet your > definition of the Internet. Oh? Google is pursuing that strategy, with altogether too much success, thanks to its deep pockets and "astroturf" lobbying in DC. > Google presumably has its own reasons for > not wanting Youtube videos cached. Perhaps it's so they get an > accurate hit-count, which they need for feedback and advertising > sales, > and even for their "most viewed" counters. That's absurd. Caches routinely poll for "freshness." That's the reason for "if-modified-since" queries in HTTP, which are just as easy to tally as full transfers. > In other words, they're maximizing their own utility function. Well, if they choose to benefit themselves by raising our costs a thousandfold, someone had better be willing to pay for the costs that result. Which will be substantial. A lot of our traffic at peak periods (and we must always buy for the peak) is YouTube. So, who will it be? The users or Google? It has to be one or the other. We're not a charity. > It isn't reasonable to ask them to maximize yours. I've tried to offer them a win/win proposition (caching saves them bandwidth, too), but they seem uninterested -- perhaps because their bandwidth costs are so much lower than mine. So, I have no other option but to offer them a choice: cover the costs or WE will limit those costs. What's ironic is that Whitacre -- whom I at first thought was uninformed about the Internet -- is turning out to have been prophetic. Google is seeking to use our pipes --for all this unnecessary traffic -- for free. What's worse, I predict that Google will, if it gets the ironclad "network neutrality" legislation that it wants passed, will start doing more and more of this. YouTube has never been profitable due to its high bandwidth costs. How much do you want to bet that Google is just spoiling to make YouTube P2P? (Note that they already got Adobe to build P2P into the latest version of the player.) > You can respond -- but at a certain risk, as outlined. We have to. We owe it to our users to keep our prices reasonable and to keep our business sustainable so that they are not left without service. --Brett Glass -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Jun 16 08:16:07 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KLB00B01ZER2C@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 08:16:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KLB00B01ZEN1S@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 16 Jun 2009 08:15:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KLB00K01UMS58@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 06:32:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KLB00DH7UMSP5@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 06:32:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.38]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F01D57A3 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 06:40:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A5A45058 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 06:40:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9939430034 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 06:36:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADE3E30032 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 06:36:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.104] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n5GAa6TB016628 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 06:36:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 06:36:06 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] What is "normal Internet service"? To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 8252B46C-5A61-11DE-A11E-C874199AE929 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <20090615202431.01c68f99@cs.columbia.edu> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: "Steven M. Bellovin" Date: June 15, 2009 8:24:31 PM EDT To: dave@farber.net Cc: Brett Glass Subject: What is "normal Internet service"? Brett, what do you see as "normal" Internet usage? You've spoken quite negatively (and quite often!) in this forum about peer-to-peer, bandwidth management, etc. Today, you spoke of "the bandwidth that YouTube can squander". But, like it or not, Youtube is one of the most popular applications on the web. The question, then, is this: what is the service that you and other similar ISPs intend to provide? What is your vision of what the Internet should be? To me, you seem to be advocating the Internet of 10 years ago: relatively small transfers, comparatively static (and hence cacheable) web pages, a download-mostly model, etc. I accept that your network is geared towards that, for both economic and technical reasons. But it's quite clear that that's not the product most people want to consume (albeit perhaps not pay for). How can these be reconciled? I see two alternatives here. First, there is a regulatory approach: applications that don't meet a certain model of the network are banned. This seems unlikely in most countries. If nothing else, it would freeze innovation -- to me and to many others, the beauty of the Internet is that it encourages innovation at the edges. The other alternative is to let the market work its will. If the costs (and hence prices) for the service people want are too high, people will scale back their expectations or demands. If others can offer a service you cannot or will not, then those others will prosper at your expense. Your course, as best I can tell, has been load management: throttle expensive requests to something you can afford without raising prices too much. Users may or may not be satisfied with that in the long term, but absent regulatory intervention the market will decide. The one strategy you cannot pursue is to demand that others meet your definition of the Internet. Google presumably has its own reasons for not wanting Youtube videos cached. Perhaps it's so they get an accurate hit-count, which they need for feedback and advertising sales, and even for their "most viewed" counters. In other words, they're maximizing their own utility function. It isn't reasonable to ask them to maximize yours. You can respond -- but at a certain risk, as outlined. --Steve Bellovin, http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Jun 16 08:16:09 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KLB00B01ZER2C@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 08:16:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KLB00B01ZEN1S@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 16 Jun 2009 08:15:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KLB00O01W2HY7@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 07:03:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KLB00I4DW2GDL@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 07:03:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (unknown [208.72.237.63]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 862563C7A for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 07:11:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by d-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DE0A4EB3 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 07:11:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AE9030166 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 07:07:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (JACKFRUIT.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.201.16]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59A3D30165 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 07:07:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.106] (c-71-206-239-18.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [71.206.239.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by jackfruit.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n5GB7JUY022210 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 07:07:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 07:07:19 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: Google enables caching in users' browsers but not by enterprises or ISPs To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.201.16 X-Listbox-UUID: DDDE9EE6-5A65-11DE-B0A0-F6CE0F1A11BE X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <20090615232647.GA16743@vortex.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Lauren Weinstein Date: June 15, 2009 7:26:47 PM EDT To: David Farber Subject: Re: [IP] Google enables caching in users' browsers but not by enterprises or ISPs Dave, Re the author of the outburst aimed at Google included below ... as Ronald Reagan famously said, "There you go again ... " Let's start with the fact that the blog posting being referred to by the author below is *not* from an official Google blog of any kind -- a fact that is clearly noted on the blog itself. The statement about the caching achievement, etc. was that of an independent observer, not Google. Oops! Next, while "complicated" caching topologies can of course be developed, it is not a simple matter to just let commodity cache software or standard cache boxes start sharing YouTube Videos among different users of an ISP, without disrupting important aspects of YouTube on which users depend. An obvious example is maintaining correct statistics on user playback operations, which are important to amateur and professional video creators alike (Google provides much of this data to video submitters via their free "Insight" service). Another factor is access control. Not all YouTube videos are public. The fact that one user of an ISP has permission to play a particular YouTube video doesn't mean that all other subscribers of that ISP have that same permission. Properly designed "end-to-end" caching systems could presumably be developed and depl