From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Sep 1 16:22:53 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPB001017A2TX@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 16:22:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPB0010179ZTS@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 01 Sep 2009 16:22:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPA00I01S1KAE@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 10:53:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KPA00I02S1J9B@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 10:53:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08D184469B for ; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 10:57:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06F8B4469A for ; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 10:57:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 038374523A for ; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 10:57:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 985BE40C0A for ; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 10:55:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP02.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.197]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A8DB40C09 for ; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 10:55:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.5] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n81EtqYP011198 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 10:55:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 10:55:46 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Robert Fano film To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <42AFE3B8-997D-464E-BFCC-0943FEDB11C7@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1075.2) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1075.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=BQBb8oKxK+fYaoPHy 0lPQhPw2kI=; b=Zoab/E9o/l/1nlgGZeDI8xnu1mivowzrIzvsfnkmkpmoaLVy4 3MKBnCgKjmkR3lYffifXXyYo4xC8gHHUxyvPA== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.197 X-Listbox-UUID: 8C69BD82-9707-11DE-8D85-94FEB97BDD05 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <019f01ca2b13$0f704770$2e50d650$@frankston.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: "Bob Frankston" Date: September 1, 2009 10:46:58 AM EDT To: Cc: "Tom Van Vleck" Subject: FW: [multicians] Fwd: Robert Fano film This might be of interest to IP readers. Bob Fano was a founder of Project MAC at MIT with Multics being a primary project. Unix was created by Multics participants at Bell Labs. -----Original Message----- From: multicians@yahoogroups.com [mailto:multicians@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Van Vleck Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 10:11 To: multicians@yahoogroups.com Subject: [multicians] Fwd: Robert Fano film I received mail from Morna Findlay at Edinburgh pointing me to a YouTube film of Prof. Fano explaining time-sharing and scientific computing. I have asked for permission to link to it on multicians.org. (I recognize the office furnishings.. he is in his office in 545 Technology Square, so he was probably Director of Project MAC at the time. The system Prof. Fano is using is CTSS, an early version that typed WAIT, after each command. That, the limit of 24 on number of users, and the use of a M35 Teletype terminal suggest to me that the film was produced in 1963, around the time of the Project MAC Summer Study.) > Would you be interested in this: > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjnmcKVnLi0 > > In which ( we think) Prof Fano explains "scientific cpmputing" ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/multicians/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/multicians/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:multicians-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:multicians-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: multicians-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Sep 1 16:22:54 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPB001017A2TX@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 16:22:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPB0010179ZTS@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 01 Sep 2009 16:22:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPA00L01SSGAA@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 11:09:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KPA00K2MSSGY8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 11:09:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA96F420AE for ; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 11:13:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A91FC420AC for ; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 11:13:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BCC342265 for ; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 11:13:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 839713F35C for ; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 11:07:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61D963F35B for ; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 11:07:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.5] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n81F7JHH017405 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 11:07:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 11:07:18 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Request for input on the definition of Broadband To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <03B31153-ACB0-4A34-91A4-E17067C185E2@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1075.2) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1075.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:message-id :to:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe :list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=9Fmgx8aW5GOSxz6Srb3Tl4yTwT4=; b=FK mmlF3nIcK9Sc4KWaLnmaDtLKcQHfG/Bw4v9/ZN7s9C0avprYqtSERzFFIQH1eRM5 /rAHnMQL41QuZA75lHwQ== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 271321D8-9709-11DE-A15A-6DE711F6C9C8 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 The other day I had a conversation with a friend at the Federal Communications Commission. He asked an interesting question. When people talk about broadband they tend to talk about numbers bits per second except for. Something seems wrong with this approach. First it is very sensitive to the advancement of technology any number will be obsolete in a few years. Second of all, and maybe most important it ignores other issues that would make any speed usable in many applications -- -- like latency chair etc. He asked if there was a "syntax" for broadband -- -- that is a deeper way of characterizing when a system supports broadband and when it does not. I offer to the IP community a chance to take a crack at this interesting and potentially profitable challenge. Dave -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Sep 1 16:22:55 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPB001017A2TX@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 16:22:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPB0010179ZTS@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 01 Sep 2009 16:22:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPA00L01SSIAH@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 11:09:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KPA00K2PSSIY8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 11:09:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0373B447A8 for ; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 11:13:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.38]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0073B447A4 for ; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 11:13:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2DFF45279 for ; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 11:13:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEA443F382 for ; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 11:11:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP03.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.198]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD6C73F380 for ; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 11:11:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.5] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n81FBlAx025403 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 11:11:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 11:11:47 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] INTERESTING Hacker-run GSM network / Private GSM To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <570DF806-BDE1-4ECA-BE53-56B22FA8CAFB@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1075.2) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1075.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=AVGTVwHoANWQXHXXM ee2lWgZmPw=; b=XuBEMKxW9/o9Wid/DDWHP/QjPo+ZDsWG/KtfcCD6xRB/qMcXi 3ePQq2ksFetUkPt9FXDZhm2ZraABGenYuGG7Q== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.198 X-Listbox-UUID: C66D2F94-9709-11DE-AEC6-73B711F6C9C8 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <43B8FE8ADDDB5B40B3097A1B178F7C6D03664F8F@host1.hosting.local> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: "Hendrik Rood" Date: August 31, 2009 3:08:13 PM EDT To: Subject: RE: [IP] Hacker-run GSM network / Private GSM Professor Farber, As I attended that camp / conference and although I did not hitchike to the site I got a hello message from the GSM network that identified itself as NL 42 and send out messages to register with them via cell-broadcast. Many who carried an iPhone experienced an unexpected freeze up from that message and thought their devices were hacked. The BSC-BTS operated under an experimental low-power license for 100mW in the 900 MHz range from our Radio Agency. The hacker-BSC turned out to be rather old-fashioned stuff in technical sense, they had made a TDM - 2 Mbit/s backhaul. His BTS was a macrocell, albeit at low power and an omnidirectional antenna. His system worked for calls, but I couldn't get an SMS through to another user, but that might have been my misconfiguration in the handset. I wasn't that impressed, it was nice that they work on their open source implementation, but closed source very affordable solutions on a more modern Ethernet / IP-technology base is also on the market and there is much going on with pico- and femtocells. Observing the message I have the impression that most readers of IP are not aware what is going on today in the area of the so-called Private GSM-networks. This year it is the intention to alter the Dutch Frequency plan to allow low-power (200 mW) unlicensed use for GSM1800 in today's unused frequencies at the edge of the GSM and the DECT-band. The so-called GSM/DECT Guard band. A bit comparable change handing out the same frequencies, but then with many low-power GSM licenses to a high number of operators has already been made in the UK. The difference for the Netherlands is that we will go unlicensed low-power and thus make a pure cellular operator bypass. The IT and Telecoms division of the Dutch Military Forces already experiments with this GSM1800 band. All devices working at GSM1800 do operate in those unused bands. The Dutch Forces have bought a pair of 1U height GSM-core servers jointly capable to serve up to 100k subscribers/SIM-cards. The basestations are picocells that are hooked up to core over an IP network (mainly just hooked up on the Ethernet LAN on the military bases and ships). They have received their own E.212 Mobile Network Code and issue their own SIM-cards. They do not use femtocells as these are mainly designed for 3G today. But that may be a next stage. There are also some unused 3G ranges and the WRC2000 has decided that 2G frequencies may also be reused for 3G. License free low power 3G can be arranged for, it was foreseen in the ITU IMT2000, but it is more an equipment availability question. The Dutch Forces currently connect their core to a GSM mobile gateway/HLR of switch based MVNO Tele2, who advertises their MNC, routes their signalling and contracts roaming at wholesale prices for them in the Netherlands and all around the globe. It is the plan of the military to outfit the military field bases (today in Uruzgan) and the Navy ships via satellite backhaul. An uplink of 128 kbit/s per ship or small base suffices to hook up all basestations back to the core. There are even ideas to put satellite backhaul links on trucks in large convoys who then carry the basestation. The Forces' setup with a roaming contract to the public network means that staff and crew can go off base or off in a harbour from a ship and only then they will then roam on the public network on land, while on the ship or a base they are with the GSM in their own MNC-domain. When their own GSM-network fails at a specific base, they automatically roam on a public network. The prime reason to engage in this setup for the Dutch Ministry of Defense were the problems they encountered with Voice-over-WiFi in real field circumstances. Big file downloads did cause problems with voice streams on the radio network. In Kosovo they had got a BTS-BSC with satellite backhaul installed by a public operator. Now it becomes more Do-It-Yourself. There is currently a public consultation going on in the Netherlands to change the E.212 numbering plan so that corporate end users and businesses (you must at least be willing to invest in the now how to operate a GSM-core and learn a lot of new protocols a typical corporate PABX owner today is unfamiliar with) can apply for their own MNC. The installation firm that supplies the Private GSM to the Dutch Ministry of Defense is here: http://www.radioaccess.nl/en/ They work with equipment from an English firm apptly called Private Mobile Networks: http://www.privatemobilenetworks.com/whatis/ That firm also has a Rapid Deployment GSM network that can be set up in a few minutes for emergency situations http://www.privatemobilenetworks.com/products/rapidgsm/ The bottom line. While the hacker is programming his own BSC which still had to link to a TDM-BTS microcell, similar efforts on IP based picocells and femtocells are on the way. Otherwise products that do work are already commercially available for non-operator businesses. It mainly requires a forward looking spectrum agency to free up some frequencies for unlicensed, low-power use of cellular technology and also willing to issue E.212 Mobile Network Codes directly to non-operator businesses. There is something moving in the UK and The Netherlands in this respect, but I doubt if this will happen in the USA. In the UK and the Netherlands businesses are also able to get 0800/0900 numbers as well as corporate PABX E.164 numbering ranges straight from the regulator. In the USA all this type of numbers and numbering block distribution from NANPA seems still to be routed via operators, who are used to play all kinds of hoarding games with them. I do not know how E.212 MNC's are distributed. Interest from corporate and campus users, in particular those who occupy high-risers and difficult to cover buildings is growing fast. It is a way to get rid of most of the fixed telephones on desks, provide good coverage everywhere and keep metering down and even connect all your offices over the IP network. Unsurprisingly the entire "movie" of operator resistance against such deployment is reprised. The "no harm to the network discussions" seems to be done over again as well as the rules from old playbooks with titles like "PABX-es must be operator owned and controlled devices". With kind regards, Hendrik Rood -- > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: David Farber [mailto:dave@farber.net] > Verzonden: maandag 17 augustus 2009 15:32 > Aan: ip > Onderwerp: [IP] Hacker-run GSM network > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Randall > Date: August 17, 2009 7:28:14 AM EDT > To: johnmacsgroup@yahoogroups.com, Dewayne Hendricks > , David Farber > Subject: Hacker-run GSM network > > [[From the Telecom Digest]] > > From: Thad Floryan > To: moder8@telecom.csail.mit.edu > Subject: Hacker-run GSM networks are coming [Telecom] > Message-ID: <4A88B360.7020506@thadlabs.com> > > I have mixed emotions when I read something like the > following which appeared on Slashdot earlier today, > especially given the known GSM interference problems. > > However, this is telephony and this is news (from Slashdot): > > Harald Welte, who's been interviewed previously by Slashdot, > has written on his blog about operating an Open Source GSM > network: > > 09_gsm_network >> > > at the recent HAR2009 conference: > > > > Photographs and a description and of the setup, run under > license of the Dutch regulatory authority, are provided; > essentially the setup consisted of a pair of BTSs (Base > Transceiver Stations) running at 100mW transmit power each > and tied to a tree. In turn these provided access to the Base > Station Controller (BSC), in this case a Linux server in a > tent running OpenBSC: > > > > The system authenticated users with a token sent via SMS; in > total 391 users subscribed to the service and were able to > use their phones as if they were on any other network. > > Independent researchers are increasingly examining GSM > networks and equipment, Welte's work proves that GSM is in > the realm of the hackers now and that this realm of mobile > networking could be set for a few surprises in the future. > > [ We need to keep an eye on this; "a few surprises" could mean > many different things :-) ] > > -- > The war on privilege will never end. Its next great campaign > will be against the privileges of the underprivileged. H. L. Mencken > > > > > > ------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Sep 1 16:22:56 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPB001017A2TX@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 16:22:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPB0010179ZTS@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 01 Sep 2009 16:22:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPB00L014FCK7@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 15:21:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KPB00L404FC2W@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 15:21:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7DEA44EDC for ; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 15:24:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.38]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A376844ED6 for ; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 15:24:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D395451D8 for ; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 15:24:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4C6941BEB for ; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 15:23:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP02.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.197]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 769D641BEA for ; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 15:23:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n81JNWDm017894 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 15:23:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 15:23:32 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] panel on Internet of the Future To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <4CEEB088-7C1D-4CE2-990D-7B0B5E401B68@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1075.2) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1075.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Priority: 3 (Normal) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:reply-to :list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=Ph1RKNghi8SqrkD7Z57yIGkfJr4=; b=Rwy0D5jBvYFgGqcrEbhVweWfpyh7 sZC2hyDJnQIn+4RDcEI6MvI9xZF7WiXJ+Cm//81jmXyzjLrjyx5Bbu6r+w== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.197 X-Listbox-UUID: F10C171A-972C-11DE-B46B-B71FBA7BDD05 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <19163.192.104.54.21.1251832095.squirrel@webmail.ece.cmu.edu> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 The FCC has been holding a series of workshops to solicit information= =20 that will help in writing the National Broadband Plan. One panel contains= =20 some preeminent Internet researchers, so it may be of particular interest = to the research community. The Internet of the Future, and How To Get There =95=09David D. Clark, Professor and Senior Research Scientist, MIT Co= mputer Science and AI Lab =95=09Van Jacobson, Research Fellow, Palo Alto Research Center =95=09Scott Shenker, Professor of Computer Science, UC Berkley =95=09Taieb Znati, Division Director, National Science Foundation =95=09Robert D. Atkinson, President, Information Technology and Innov= ation Foundation Moderator: Jon Peha, Chief Technologist, Federal Communications = =20 Commission Less research oriented, but for those with an interest in issues rela= ted to video over the Internet, the panel that follows immediately will include =95=09Gilles BianRosa, CEO, Vuze, Inc. =95=09Richard R. Green, former President and CEO, CableLabs =95=09Angela K. Morgenstern, Managing Director, PBS Online =95=09Gigi Sohn, President and Co-Founder, Public Knowledge =95=09Phil Wiser, Co-founder, Chairman and President, Sezmi This will occur on Thursday, Sept. 3. The first panel begins at = =20 9:30AM EDT. Webcast available at http://www.broadband.gov/workshops.html -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Wed Sep 2 07:43:41 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPC00601DWPDW@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 07:43:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPC00601DWLDP@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Wed, 02 Sep 2009 07:43:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPB004018DTMZ@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 16:46:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KPB003548DSS2@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 16:46:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 392BD4238C for ; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 16:50:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 372024238A for ; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 16:50:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B39B433DE for ; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 16:50:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8FFD3F136 for ; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 16:43:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70CAF3F134 for ; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 16:43:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.5] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n81KhWQZ025077 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 16:43:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 16:43:31 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Request for input on the definition of Broadband To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1075.2) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1075.2) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_E8T5IUdy5c02iAQ8MeRe6Q)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:subject:date:references:to:message-id:mime-version :reply-to:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s= launch; bh=6PjcuGYgI9hxTxWdmX3PDpNwAjo=; b=fwDrePeCIi1juum3OnEkq JQTZEEtxJ/P/BsUeEB4hX50uyOE9ZCYrjDQH5eVvO6jTuAh3J7wpw9iBLtuTMnI7 Q== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 1DFFBDA2-9738-11DE-90C1-00E511F6C9C8 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <786344325.286409.1251827765778.JavaMail.root@vms228.mailsrvcs.net> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_E8T5IUdy5c02iAQ8MeRe6Q) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Begin forwarded message: From: Chuck Brownstein Date: September 1, 2009 1:56:05 PM EDT To: dave@farber.net Subject: Re: [IP] Request for input on the definition of Broadband Reply-To: charles.brownstein@verizon.net Dave, Long ago in a land far a way, a band of techies looking to understand where their world was going and figure out how to get there took a look at similar issues. (Ok, ok, some of them just wanted to simplify marketing thier boxes and bandwidth, but their musings might yet be amusing). If you go to: and look at Class Profiles for the Current and Emerging NII; February 1997, you can see what sort of notions were floated in antiquity. Adjust orders of magnitude to translate to today's technologies, and watch out for network anti-nutrality potholes Chuck On Sep 1, 2009, David Farber wrote: The other day I had a conversation with a friend at the Federal Communications Commission. He asked an interesting question. When people talk about broadband they tend to talk about numbers bits per second except for. Something seems wrong with this approach. First it is very sensitive to the advancement of technology any number will be obsolete in a few years. Second of all, and maybe most important it ignores other issues that would make any speed usable in many applications -- -- like latency chair etc. He asked if there was a "syntax" for broadband -- -- that is a deeper way of characterizing when a system supports broadband and when it does not. I offer to the IP community a chance to take a crack at this interesting and potentially profitable challenge. Dave ------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_E8T5IUdy5c02iAQ8MeRe6Q) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

<= div>Begin forwarded message:

From: Chuck Brownstein <= ;charles.brownstein= @verizon.net>
Date: September 1, 2009 1:56:05 PM EDT
Subject: Re: [IP] Request for input on the definition of Br= oadband

Dave,

Long ago in a= land far a way, a band of techies looking to understand where their = world was going and figure out how to get there took a look at simila= r issues.  (Ok, ok, some of them just wanted to simplify marketi= ng thier boxes and bandwidth, but their musings might yet be amusing)= .

If you go to: <http://www.xiwt.org/documents/documents.html> = and look at Class Profi= les for the Current and Emerging NII; February 1997= , you can see what sort of notions were floated in antiquity. Adjust = orders of magnitude to translate to today's technologies, and wa= tch out for network anti-nutrality potholes

Chuck


<= br>

On Sep 1, 2009, David Farber <dave@farber.net> wrote:

The other day I had a co= nversation with a friend at the Federal
Communications Commission= . He asked an interesting question. When
people talk about broadb= and they tend to talk about numbers bits per
second except for.
Something seems wrong with this approach. First it is very sens= itive
to the advancement of technology any number will be obsolet= e in a few
years. Second of all, and maybe most important it igno= res other issues
that would make any speed usable in many applica= tions -- -- like
latency chair etc. He asked if there was a "synt= ax" for broadband --
-- that is a deeper way of characterizing wh= en a system supports
broadband and when it does not.

I off= er to the IP community a chance to take a crack at this
interesti= ng and potentially profitable challenge.

Dave


-----= --------------------------------------
Archives: https://www.listbox.com/m= ww.listbox.com/" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"parsedLink">http://www.li= stbox.com

--Boundary_(ID_E8T5IUdy5c02iAQ8MeRe6Q)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Wed Sep 2 07:43:42 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPC00601DWPDW@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 07:43:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPC00601DWLDP@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Wed, 02 Sep 2009 07:43:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPC00G015Y4KZ@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 04:51:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KPC00F765Y4F9@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 04:51:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 993514517E for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 04:55:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.38]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97ECB45179 for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 04:55:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95A5246D13 for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 04:55:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E83AC3FBAB for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 04:53:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B57C83FBAA for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 04:53:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n828rbu5003672 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 04:53:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 04:53:37 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] FCC Comment on Defining Broadband To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1075.2) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1075.2) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_ltJqoGk5esq+IZZlA/Yejw)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:subject:date:message-id:to:mime-version:reply-to :list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=cTGB/3TSER1gWoaCS2eHzZBS/Ps=; b=WNKoOdvBcEgu93lOJS1ECorhv0BF Spnqx8BoUDdAw/o74WTY/KE6xurG2GwyykgW4MLAkhDqWaVFPxwHRE2K5Q== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 1C8F7280-979E-11DE-9EF2-E9C711F6C9C8 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_ltJqoGk5esq+IZZlA/Yejw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT FirstMile.US is collecting information to submit to the FCC regarding "Comment Sought on Defining Broadband" and needs your input. This survey will be open until September 7 at 5 PM Pacific. Tell your friends. https://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=VNQhAteAwZ0JZHpFHky_2bTQ_3d_3d ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_ltJqoGk5esq+IZZlA/Yejw) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE
FirstMile.US= is collecting information to submit to the FCC regarding "Commen= t Sought on Defining Broadband" and needs your input. This survey wil= l be open until September 7 at 5 PM Pacific. Tell your friends.

https://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=3DVNQhAteAwZ0JZHpFHky_2bTQ_3d= _3d

--Boundary_(ID_ltJqoGk5esq+IZZlA/Yejw)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Wed Sep 2 07:43:43 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPC00601DWPDW@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 07:43:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPC00601DWLDP@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Wed, 02 Sep 2009 07:43:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPC00G0160CRE@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 04:53:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KPC00G7160B7Y@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 04:53:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A2C54562C for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 04:56:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4875D4562B for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 04:56:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 454FF45FDD for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 04:56:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 468283FBBC for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 04:54:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP03.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.198]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 115013FBBB for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 04:54:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n828srdx013229 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 04:54:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 04:54:52 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Request for input on the definition of Broadband To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <8AB73E7D-80FB-46E3-B1D4-1D4020C0C51E@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1075.2) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1075.2) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_+rcdsUessQ2i6YGScOirwA)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:subject:date:references:to:message-id:mime-version :reply-to:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s= launch; bh=ge3gW8pL1/brmSqGK5z4fi0PWWU=; b=QT988E9LYfizgK26hbH7l c4ov6PQoUsjxWUrjq6jcEthHf5z4jmoY1loE7m0Mz7NDz7capjniy3S28FYpznFp w== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.198 X-Listbox-UUID: 49744EF6-979E-11DE-A103-D1E711F6C9C8 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <924341.12906.qm@web65109.mail.ac2.yahoo.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_+rcdsUessQ2i6YGScOirwA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Please also copy me for IP djf Begin forwarded message: From: Stagg Newman Date: September 1, 2009 9:12:42 PM EDT To: ip , dave@farber.net Cc: Rob Curtis , Tom Brown Subject: Re: [IP] Request for input on the definition of Broadband IPers: Please do send us your ideas. We need an grammer that can be used to definie "broadband", a very ill defined term. [and not the technical definition on an "broad analog channel :>) ] The definition needs to recognize that the capabilities must evolve with time. And pramatically the key focus of the defintional effort is "high performance access to the Internet", where the Internet is the IP based network of networks. Email on IP is welcome as are public filings in the FCC proceeding 09-47. Stagg Newman Chief Technologist, FCC National Broadband Plan team stagg.newman@fcc.gov --- On Tue, 9/1/09, David Farber wrote: From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Request for input on the definition of Broadband To: "ip" Date: Tuesday, September 1, 2009, 4:43 PM Begin forwarded message: From: Chuck Brownstein Date: September 1, 2009 1:56:05 PM EDT To: dave@farber.net Subject: Re: [IP] Request for input on the definition of Broadband Reply-To: charles.brownstein@verizon.net Dave, Long ago in a land far a way, a band of techies looking to understand where their world was going and figure out how to get there took a look at similar issues. (Ok, ok, some of them just wanted to simplify marketing thier boxes and bandwidth, but their musings might yet be amusing). If you go to: and look at Class Profiles for the Current and Emerging NII; February 1997, you can see what sort of notions were floated in antiquity. Adjust orders of magnitude to translate to today's technologies, and watch out for network anti-nutrality potholes Chuck On Sep 1, 2009, David Farber wrote: The other day I had a conversation with a friend at the Federal Communications Commission. He asked an interesting question. When people talk about broadband they tend to talk about numbers bits per second except for. Something seems wrong with this approach. First it is very sensitive to the advancement of technology any number will be obsolete in a few years. Second of all, and maybe most important it ignores other issues that would make any speed usable in many applications -- -- like latency chair etc. He asked if there was a "syntax" for broadband -- -- that is a deeper way of characterizing when a system supports broadband and when it does not. I offer to the IP community a chance to take a crack at this interesting and potentially profitable challenge. Dave ------------------------------------------- Archives ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_+rcdsUessQ2i6YGScOirwA) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE
Pleas= e also copy me for IP  djf 
Begin forwarded message= :

From: Stagg Newman <lsnewmanjr@yahoo.com>
Date: September 1, 2009 9:12:42 PM EDT
Cc: Rob Curtis <robert.curtis@fcc.gov>, Tom Brown <= thomas.brown@fcc.gov><= br>
Subject: Re:= [IP] Request for input on the definition of Broadband
=

IPers:
 
Please do send us your ideas.
 
We need an grammer that can be used to definie "broadband",
a very ill defined term.
[and not the technical definition on an "broad analog channel :&= gt;) ]
 
The definition needs to recognize that the capabilities must evo= lve with time.
And pramatically the key focus of the defintional effort is "hig= h performance access to
the Internet", where the Internet is the IP based network of net= works.
 
Email on IP is welcome as are public filings in the FCC proceedi= ng 09-47.
 
Stagg Newman
Chief Technologist, FCC National Broadband Plan team
stagg.newman@fcc.gov=

--- On Tue, 9/1/09, David Farber <dave@farber.net> wrote:

From: David Farber <dave@farber.net>
Subject: [IP] Request= for input on the definition of Broadband
To: "ip" <ip@v2.listbox.com>
Date: Tues= day, September 1, 2009, 4:43 PM



Begin forwarded message:

From: Chuck Brownstein <charles.brownstein@verizon.net>
Date: September 1, 2009 1:56:05 PM EDT
To: dave@farber.net
Subject: Re: [IP] Request for input on the = definition of Broadband

Dave,

= Long ago in a land far a way, a band of techies looking to understand= where their world was going and figure out how to get there took a l= ook at similar issues.  (Ok, ok, some of them just wanted to sim= plify marketing thier boxes and bandwidth, but their musings might ye= t be amusing).

If you go to: <http:= //www.xiwt.org/documents/documents.html> and look at Class Profiles for the Current and Emerging NII; February 1997, you can see what sort= of notions were floated in antiquity. Adjust orders of magnitude to = translate to today's technologies, and watch out for network ant= i-nutrality potholes

Chuck



On Sep 1, 2009, David Farber <dave@= farber.net> wrote:
The other day I had a conversation with= a friend at the Federal
Communications Commission. He asked an i= nteresting question. When
people talk about broadband they tend t= o talk about numbers bits per
second except for.

Something= seems wrong with this approach. First it is very sensitive
to th= e advancement of technology any number will be obsolete in a few
= years. Second of all, and maybe most important it ignores other issue= s
that would make any speed usable in many applications -- -- lik= e
latency chair etc. He asked if there was a "syntax" for broadba= nd --
-- that is a deeper way of characterizing when a system sup= ports
broadband and when it does not.

I offer to the IP co= mmunity a chance to take a crack at this
interesting and potentia= lly profitable challenge.

Dave


----------------------------------= ---------
Archives: https://www.listbox.c= sedLink" href=3D"http://www.listbox.com/" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"no= follow">http://www.listbox.com

<= /tbody>
Archives

--Boundary_(ID_+rcdsUessQ2i6YGScOirwA)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Wed Sep 2 07:43:44 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPC00601DWPDW@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 07:43:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPC00601DWLDP@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Wed, 02 Sep 2009 07:43:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPC00H016988N@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 04:58:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.83]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KPC00FAU697F9@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 04:58:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3319B43E24 for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 05:01:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.87]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30A2143E23 for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 05:01:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DD7A44794 for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 05:01:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B3B741D1F for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 04:55:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP03.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.198]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DFE241D1E for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 04:55:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n828sre0013229 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 04:55:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 04:55:14 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: Request for input on the definition of Broadband To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1075.2) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1075.2) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_376LRrhMh7Xwu9NRgwchjQ)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:subject:date:references:to:message-id:mime-version :reply-to:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s= launch; bh=eYCFkWzDP9xPw9mDnh4vBOoQ6xw=; b=Kr8LC6t3n4AgIIYfIDNaw 1jWwIzusCoEbc6GgfNLpx4Bq/2skiYxunJtw0Ovm+E9z7kS54OLv+g4wryPZmGpb Q== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.198 X-Listbox-UUID: 554F6D78-979E-11DE-8313-FE45BA7BDD05 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_376LRrhMh7Xwu9NRgwchjQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Begin forwarded message: From: Mary Shaw Date: September 1, 2009 6:01:00 PM EDT To: dave@farber.net Subject: Re: [IP] Request for input on the definition of Broadband Dave, Yes, surely "broadband" should be parsed out into bandwidth, latency, availability, and so on. More significantly, though, a useful definition will not be stated in terms of specific values for those properties but rather will adapt with changing technology and expectations. I would suggest this intuition for an adaptable definition: that a "broadband" connection supports the vast majority of the currently popular information resources on the internet with satisfactory response time. That is, "currently popular" at the time the definition is invoked. As new applications emerge, they up the ante. For example, as people are induced to put their information into "the cloud", broadband service should make that indistinguishable from local storage, which means that fast uploads will be required as well as fast downloads. Any form of offsite storage suffices for this point -- I keep the master copies of my files on a university server, so I really notice even brief service interruptions, and I need symmetrical service rather than the common fast down/slow up service because I need fast uploads for things like intermediate file saves. Mary On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 11:07 AM, David Farber wrote: The other day I had a conversation with a friend at the Federal Communications Commission. He asked an interesting question. When people talk about broadband they tend to talk about numbers bits per second except for. Something seems wrong with this approach. First it is very sensitive to the advancement of technology any number will be obsolete in a few years. Second of all, and maybe most important it ignores other issues that would make any speed usable in many applications -- -- like latency chair etc. He asked if there was a "syntax" for broadband -- -- that is a deeper way of characterizing when a system supports broadband and when it does not. I offer to the IP community a chance to take a crack at this interesting and potentially profitable challenge. Dave ------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_376LRrhMh7Xwu9NRgwchjQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

<= div>Begin forwarded message:

From: Mary Shaw <mary.shaw@gmail.com>
Date: September 1, 2009= 6:01:00 PM EDT
Subject: Re: [IP] Req= uest for input on the definition of Broadband
Dave,

Yes, surely "broadband" should be parsed out into bandw= idth, latency, availability, and so on.

More significantly, th= ough, a useful definition will not be stated in terms of specific val= ues for those properties but rather will adapt with changing technolo= gy and expectations.

I would suggest this intuition for an adaptable definition: that = a "broadband" connection supports the vast majority of the currently = popular information resources on the internet with satisfactory respo= nse time.  That is, "currently popular" at the time the definiti= on is invoked.  As new applications emerge, they up the ante.&nb= sp;

For example, as people are induced to put their information into = "the cloud", broadband service should make that indistinguishable fro= m local storage, which means that fast uploads will be required as we= ll as fast downloads.  Any form of offsite storage suffices for = this point -- I keep the master copies of my files on a university se= rver, so I really notice even brief service interruptions, and I need= symmetrical service rather than the common fast down/slow up service= because I need fast uploads for things like intermediate file saves.=

Mary

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 11:= 07 AM, David Farber <dave@farber.net> wrote:
The other day I had a conversation with a friend at the Federal Commu= nications Commission. He asked an interesting question. When people t= alk about broadband they tend to talk about numbers bits per second e= xcept for.

Something seems wrong with this approach. First it is very sensitive = to the advancement of technology any number will be obsolete in a few= years. Second of all, and maybe most important it ignores other issu= es that would make any speed usable in many applications -- -- like l= atency chair etc. He asked if there was a "syntax" for broadband -- -= - that is a deeper way of characterizing when a system supports broad= band and when it does not.

I offer to the IP community a chance to take a crack at this interest= ing and potentially profitable challenge.

Dave


-------------------------------------------
w
>
ank">http://www.listbox.com


--Boundary_(ID_376LRrhMh7Xwu9NRgwchjQ)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Wed Sep 2 07:43:45 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPC00601DWPDW@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 07:43:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPC00601DWLDP@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Wed, 02 Sep 2009 07:43:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPC00J0181IOC@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 05:37:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.83]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KPC00J0D81HMC@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 05:36:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A72543A5D for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 05:40:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.87]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 387EE43A5C for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 05:40:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2311A45A7F for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 05:40:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A02CC3FDAB for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 05:34:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP02.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.197]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F74B3FDA9 for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 05:34:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n829YRBe001028 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 05:34:27 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 05:34:27 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] It brings back "fond" memories -- ThinkGeek Slide Rule To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <83F5291A-3FF8-41DD-8A06-8321FBD89306@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1075.2) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1075.2) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_1VTcbi/K4f0VMOR76R9xlw)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:subject:date:message-id:to:mime-version:reply-to :list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=XBqbg8rqbhoLmHfwUEUdGm4XqNA=; b=LxWYm4M5Gy5hNQYvn6KtaKDSgRDe 2wR6nJIqpqXdlCZLiNA5ndmNMNPaUsPnslNrMJ4FZrGwjFz/Mn5Bsu4jqQ== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.197 X-Listbox-UUID: D01DA542-97A3-11DE-B43A-33A611F6C9C8 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_1VTcbi/K4f0VMOR76R9xlw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/tools/be12/?cpg=101T ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_1VTcbi/K4f0VMOR76R9xlw) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/tools/be12/?cpg=101T

--Boundary_(ID_1VTcbi/K4f0VMOR76R9xlw)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Thu Sep 3 09:11:06 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPE00H01CMEWJ@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:11:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPE00H01CM9W6@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:10:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPC00901EV10X@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 08:04:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KPC0067LEV1P3@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 08:04:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36579458DD for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 08:07:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.38]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35598458DB for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 08:07:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DB2C46FF2 for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 08:07:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85CC9406DD for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 08:06:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP03.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.198]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55E6E406DC for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 08:06:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.5] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n82C69lv015463 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 08:06:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 08:06:08 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] FCC REQUESTS ADDITIONAL NOMINATIONS FOR MEMBERSHIP ON THE TECHNOLOGICAL ADVISORY COUNCIL To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <92F63AC5-E063-4A98-A6CB-753C7F303491@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1075.2) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1075.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=Algg3pEbUKg1botmf CdT51LTLPQ=; b=ibcCOqc76sDXwUl/k5g35+Id+up+/eDJw7vXoXqUkHpKRYm+h bh0MjfEMaTHtLQMfCsAPQ1wSxSqL8pKBFRJyw== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.198 X-Listbox-UUID: 04D8C1C6-97B9-11DE-A202-2EF011F6C9C8 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <39A74E56-6B5D-4314-B8A8-32DFA9AA4FD4@warpspeed.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 DA 09-1979 August 31, 2009 FCC REQUESTS ADDITIONAL NOMINATIONS BY September 30, 2009 FOR =20 MEMBERSHIP ON THE TECHNOLOGICAL ADVISORY COUNCIL On April 8, 2009, the Commission issued a public notice soliciting = =20 nominations for the Technical Advisory Council (TAC) and nominations = =20 were received in response to this notice. Concurrent with the =20 establishment of the TAC, the Commission was charged by Congress to = =20 develop a plan that seeks to ensure that people of the United States = =20 have access to broadband capability. In support of this and related = =20 efforts, the Commission is now seeking additional nominations to the = =20 TAC to ensure that its membership best serves the needs of the =20 Commission. The Commission will accept nominations for the Council through =20 September 30, 2009. Nominations previously submitted remain in =20 consideration. The Commission, at its discretion, may consider =20 nominations received after this date, but consideration of late =20 submissions is not guaranteed. Individuals may apply for, or nominate= =20 another individual for, membership on the Council. Each nomination or= =20 application must include: a.=09the name and title of the applicant or nominee and a description= of =20 the interest the applicant or nominee will represent; b.=09the applicant's or nominee's mail address, e-mail address, =20 telephone number, and facsimile number (where available); c.=09reasons why the applicant or nominee should be appointed to the = =20 Council; and d.=09the basis for determining the applicant or nominee = has =20 achieved peer recognition as a technical expert. Further details on the TAC are provided in the April 8, 2009, public = =20 notice available at Nominations and applications should be sent to Walter Johnston, Chief= , =20 Electromagnetic Compatibility Division, Federal Communications =20 Commission, 445 12th Street, SW, Room 7- A224, Washington, DC 20554 o= r =20 e-mail Walter.Johnston@fcc.gov and please include =93TAC nomination= =94 in =20 the subject line -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Thu Sep 3 09:11:07 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPE00H01CMEWJ@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:11:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPE00H01CM9W6@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:10:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPC00C01S0ZCD@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 12:48:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KPC00B84S0Z68@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 12:48:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8502446AE6 for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 12:52:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.38]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8173646AE3 for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 12:52:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DBE046573 for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 12:52:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96F4041F7E for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 12:49:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com (qw-out-2122.google.com [74.125.92.25]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E83B41F7D for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 12:49:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 5so377799qwi.27 for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 09:49:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.8.75 with SMTP id g11mr5487692qag.211.1251910194363; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 09:49:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?128.237.225.166? (CMU-356848.WV.CC.CMU.EDU [128.237.225.166]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 22sm47836qyk.10.2009.09.02.09.49.52 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 02 Sep 2009 09:49:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 12:48:54 -0400 From: Dave Farber Subject: [IP] Re: Request for input on the definition of Broadband To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <96A83681-5386-4F7E-80CD-63955E448F54@me.com> MIME-version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7A400) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7A400) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_7cwNqOjyAYhWvDXf9hgfXQ)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=message-id :from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:date:references:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=iltTw+xiPKo0QzgPd rmeSc2sVyw=; b=O7SyNJlctOIU+XpY05OStQ/YqcOzJB8ga/mp9VyG0UrzpSmE8 vsSHglRU+ezIUgRh0ouPg4jHQl4JdVEwwLNDQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:mime-version :subject:date:references; bh=ZKHrRSl9ayWVx0uuH5rLD2A11R1KCJt/Xmm1txpztaA=; b=s90mruPOK4w+ZaN56cc1rTUFtA7+BvKo9q3Fq499jwdLNV9rMRxUDOfygOMVb5RoMr ERmRpzeTblHYUisc+Zur60zpAi1BlwsdruYJTWwUK9LZv5sSPOnCctMTDGI4weNrEdKm 86+prgWEKQYjaAs56/dhU/rEnfA2qrBV/N91w= X-Listbox-UUID: A56333AC-97E0-11DE-8A31-980328398B58 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <4A9E935F.8050204@reed.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :x-mailer:mime-version:subject:date:references; b=LFJ1Ec/mVF+oNnRoDL0nauhZhAllI6/XiveuO6Wx7spNANa1j+z9+dCR31lGiUlOBr 2pB0o0rQegS+EMbBzHmRGcU2g7MhzySpweY/aVGPDDlh3FmYrBW2JxQ8jfSvh+GUCdez zIfkpMx3FKEvyzOTHrGncQy22orjtmAZA+qmw= --Boundary_(ID_7cwNqOjyAYhWvDXf9hgfXQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Begin forwarded message: > From: "David P. Reed" > Date: September 2, 2009 11:46:39 EDT > To: dave@farber.net > Cc: ip , Stagg Newman , Rob > Curtis , Tom Brown > Subject: Re: [IP] Re: Request for input on the definition of > Broadband > > Here is a concise, precise, and I believe complete, definition that > can serve as a good starting point. Readers may note that it is a > definition that has served the Internet well. It is 3 sentences long. > > Broadband is a low-latency and high-datarate access service that > provides ability to send and receive IP datagrams to hosts on the > worldwide public Internet, as defined by the full address space > defined by the IP versions currently used. The broadband transport > may use only the information placed into the IP header/envelope to > manage delivery, does not use, record, or retain content information > for any purpose other than law enforcement purposes. The public > internet is defined as the reachable set of hosts on all autonomous > systems that have agreed to exchange Internet traffic with one or > more peer autonomous systems in the public Internet. > > Comments: this preserves technological evolvability, since it says > nothing about the technology underlying the transport, nor does it > say anything about the applications served. > > > On 09/02/2009 04:55 AM, David Farber wrote: >> >> >> >> Begin forwarded message: >> >> From: Mary Shaw >> Date: September 1, 2009 6:01:00 PM EDT >> To: dave@farber.net >> Subject: Re: [IP] Request for input on the definition of Broadband >> >> Dave, >> >> Yes, surely "broadband" should be parsed out into bandwidth, >> latency, availability, and so on. >> >> More significantly, though, a useful definition will not be stated >> in terms of specific values for those properties but rather will >> adapt with changing technology and expectations. >> >> I would suggest this intuition for an adaptable definition: that a >> "broadband" connection supports the vast majority of the currently >> popular information resources on the internet with satisfactory >> response time. That is, "currently popular" at the time the >> definition is invoked. As new applications emerge, they up the ante. >> >> For example, as people are induced to put their information into >> "the cloud", broadband service should make that indistinguishable >> from local storage, which means that fast uploads will be required >> as well as fast downloads. Any form of offsite storage suffices >> for this point -- I keep the master copies of my files on a >> university server, so I really notice even brief service >> interruptions, and I need symmetrical service rather than the >> common fast down/slow up service because I need fast uploads for >> things like intermediate file saves. >> >> Mary >> >> On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 11:07 AM, David Farber >> wrote: >> The other day I had a conversation with a friend at the Federal >> Communications Commission. He asked an interesting question. When >> people talk about broadband they tend to talk about numbers bits >> per second except for. >> >> Something seems wrong with this approach. First it is very >> sensitive to the advancement of technology any number will be >> obsolete in a few years. Second of all, and maybe most important it >> ignores other issues that would make any speed usable in many >> applications -- -- like latency chair etc. He asked if there was a >> "syntax" for broadband -- -- that is a deeper way of characterizing >> when a system supports broadband and when it does not. >> >> I offer to the IP community a chance to take a crack at this >> interesting and potentially profitable challenge. >> >> Dave >> >> >> ------------------------------------------- >> >> >> Archives > ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_7cwNqOjyAYhWvDXf9hgfXQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT




Begin forwarded message:

From: "David P. Reed" <dpreed@reed.com>
Date: September 2, 2009 11:46:39 EDT
To: dave@farber.net
Cc: ip <ip@v2.listbox.com>, Stagg Newman <lsnewmanjr@yahoo.com>, Rob Curtis <robert.curtis@fcc.gov>, Tom Brown <thomas.brown@fcc.gov>
Subject: Re: [IP] Re:  Request for input on the definition of Broadband

Here is a concise, precise,  and I believe complete, definition that can serve as a good starting point. Readers may note that it is a definition that has served the Internet well.  It is 3 sentences long.

Broadband is a low-latency and high-datarate access service that provides ability to send and receive IP datagrams to hosts on the worldwide public Internet, as defined by the full address space defined by the IP versions currently  used.  The broadband transport may use only the information placed into the IP header/envelope to manage delivery, does not use, record, or retain content information for any purpose other than law enforcement purposes. The public internet is defined as the reachable set of hosts on all autonomous systems that have agreed to exchange Internet traffic with one or more peer autonomous systems in the public Internet.

Comments:  this preserves technological evolvability, since it says nothing about the technology underlying the transport, nor does it say anything about the applications served. 


On 09/02/2009 04:55 AM, David Farber wrote:


Begin forwarded message:

From: Mary Shaw <mary.shaw@gmail.com>
Date: September 1, 2009 6:01:00 PM EDT
Subject: Re: [IP] Request for input on the definition of Broadband

Dave,

Yes, surely "broadband" should be parsed out into bandwidth, latency, availability, and so on.

More significantly, though, a useful definition will not be stated in terms of specific values for those properties but rather will adapt with changing technology and expectations.

I would suggest this intuition for an adaptable definition: that a "broadband" connection supports the vast majority of the currently popular information resources on the internet with satisfactory response time.  That is, "currently popular" at the time the definition is invoked.  As new applications emerge, they up the ante. 

For example, as people are induced to put their information into "the cloud", broadband service should make that indistinguishable from local storage, which means that fast uploads will be required as well as fast downloads.  Any form of offsite storage suffices for this point -- I keep the master copies of my files on a university server, so I really notice even brief service interruptions, and I need symmetrical service rather than the common fast down/slow up service because I need fast uploads for things like intermediate file saves.

Mary

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 11:07 AM, David Farber <dave@farber.net> wrote:
The other day I had a conversation with a friend at the Federal Communications Commission. He asked an interesting question. When people talk about broadband they tend to talk about numbers bits per second except for.

Something seems wrong with this approach. First it is very sensitive to the advancement of technology any number will be obsolete in a few years. Second of all, and maybe most important it ignores other issues that would make any speed usable in many applications -- -- like latency chair etc. He asked if there was a "syntax" for broadband -- -- that is a deeper way of characterizing when a system supports broadband and when it does not.

I offer to the IP community a chance to take a crack at this interesting and potentially profitable challenge.

Dave


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--Boundary_(ID_7cwNqOjyAYhWvDXf9hgfXQ)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Thu Sep 3 09:11:08 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPE00H01CMEWJ@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:11:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPE00H01CM9W6@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:10:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPC00J01VH76X@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 14:03:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KPC00HCUVH7NT@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 14:03:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AE1244FF5 for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 14:06:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3824B44FF4 for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 14:06:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13393455AC for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 14:06:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C095840AE1 for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 13:59:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP03.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.198]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90B1940ADF for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 13:59:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FARBERMAC.ISRI.CMU.EDU (FARBERMAC.ISRI.CMU.EDU [128.2.220.234]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n82HxkqN021393 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 13:59:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 13:59:43 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: Request for input on the definition of Broadband To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <490C6D15-E472-4DCF-A9F5-D3E9811DFD64@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=message-id :from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:date:references:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=e3kZ9oH+FWmlUjzxa ZDmgYgiFJI=; b=LpzU6XzrAYOWHVK2KtZS/QwB77FDG8GuDmI8SgPpdpZiBR2lU h1VA6PPoSxYCef+yOScvsoWquPHdQMn45K04Q== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.198 X-Listbox-UUID: 67B8EE2A-97EA-11DE-AE68-A8B711F6C9C8 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Bruce R Koball Date: September 2, 2009 1:22:32 PM EDT To: Dave Farber Cc: ip Subject: Re: [IP] Re: Request for input on the definition of Broadband Dave, On the premise that there are no stupid questions, I'd like to ask the IP collective whether services that are not directly mediated by the internet, like digital cable TV, considered part of "broadband"...? -brk- On Wed, 2 Sep 2009, Dave Farber wrote: > > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: "David P. Reed" >> Date: September 2, 2009 11:46:39 EDT >> To: dave@farber.net >> Cc: ip , Stagg Newman , >> Rob Curtis , Tom Brown >> Subject: Re: [IP] Re: Request for input on the definition of >> Broadband > >> Here is a concise, precise, and I believe complete, definition >> that can serve as a good starting point. Readers may note that it >> is a definition that has served the Internet well. It is 3 >> sentences long. >> Broadband is a low-latency and high-datarate access service that >> provides ability to send and receive IP datagrams to hosts on the >> worldwide public Internet, as defined by the full address space >> defined by the IP versions currently used. The broadband >> transport may use only the information placed into the IP header/ >> envelope to manage delivery, does not use, record, or retain >> content information for any purpose other than law enforcement >> purposes. The public internet is defined as the reachable set of >> hosts on all autonomous systems that have agreed to exchange >> Internet traffic with one or more peer autonomous systems in the >> public Internet. >> Comments: this preserves technological evolvability, since it says >> nothing about the technology underlying the transport, nor does it >> say anything about the applications served. >> On 09/02/2009 04:55 AM, David Farber wrote: >>> Begin forwarded message: >>> From: Mary Shaw >>> Date: September 1, 2009 6:01:00 PM EDT >>> To: dave@farber.net >>> Subject: Re: [IP] Request for input on the definition of Broadband >>> Dave, >>> Yes, surely "broadband" should be parsed out into bandwidth, >>> latency, availability, and so on. >>> More significantly, though, a useful definition will not be stated >>> in terms of specific values for those properties but rather will >>> adapt with changing technology and expectations. >>> I would suggest this intuition for an adaptable definition: that a >>> "broadband" connection supports the vast majority of the currently >>> popular information resources on the internet with satisfactory >>> response time. That is, "currently popular" at the time the >>> definition is invoked. As new applications emerge, they up the >>> ante. >>> For example, as people are induced to put their information into >>> "the cloud", broadband service should make that indistinguishable >>> from local storage, which means that fast uploads will be required >>> as well as fast downloads. Any form of offsite storage suffices >>> for this point -- I keep the master copies of my files on a >>> university server, so I really notice even brief service >>> interruptions, and I need symmetrical service rather than the >>> common fast down/slow up service because I need fast uploads for >>> things like intermediate file saves. >>> Mary >>> On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 11:07 AM, David Farber >>> wrote: >>> The other day I had a conversation with a friend at the Federal >>> Communications Commission. He asked an interesting question. When >>> people talk about broadband they tend to talk about numbers bits >>> per second except for. >>> Something seems wrong with this approach. First it is very >>> sensitive to the advancement of technology any number will be >>> obsolete in a few years. Second of all, and maybe most important >>> it ignores other issues that would make any speed usable in many >>> applications -- -- like latency chair etc. He asked if there was a >>> "syntax" for broadband -- -- that is a deeper way of >>> characterizing when a system supports broadband and when it does >>> not. >>> I offer to the IP community a chance to take a crack at this >>> interesting and potentially profitable challenge. >>> Dave >>> ------------------------------------------- >>> Archives > > > > ------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Thu Sep 3 09:11:09 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPE00H01CMEWJ@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:11:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPE00H01CM9W6@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:10:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPC00K01WD8YU@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 14:22:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.83]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KPC00K96WD7DG@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 14:22:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6726439C9 for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 14:25:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.87]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4227439C7 for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 14:25:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E9AF43FC3 for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 14:25:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F19540C2B for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 14:19:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP02.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.197]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E67FC40C2A for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 14:19:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FARBERMAC.ISRI.CMU.EDU (FARBERMAC.ISRI.CMU.EDU [128.2.220.234]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n82IJ0B0009361 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 14:19:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 14:18:59 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Not every cloud has a silver lining: To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <869B17B7-8AB3-4707-AE4F-8CC865F50093@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_PdMMFank4vhoCH+D3GnGxQ)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=message-id :from:to:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:references :reply-to:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s= launch; bh=f68vjNUiTJEl8d1uWOkNDES4FsM=; b=F5bJnznkShZZ19QyOsHsx S1jGaqDGxJJgZo7QCkt2fKQxoUmgXbszQQg1RGfrBYHQO7FgSM9aY6j/UkprMlyP A== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.197 X-Listbox-UUID: 18561D82-97ED-11DE-B72A-50FB11F6C9C8 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <22E076E1-C546-4918-A6C8-181B4A17AAB2@eff.org> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_PdMMFank4vhoCH+D3GnGxQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Not every cloud has a silver lining: http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2009/sep/02/cory-doctorow-cloud-computing - -- ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_PdMMFank4vhoCH+D3GnGxQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
--Boundary_(ID_PdMMFank4vhoCH+D3GnGxQ)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Thu Sep 3 09:11:10 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPE00H01CMEWJ@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:11:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPE00H01CM9W6@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:10:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPC00L01WFG2B@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 14:23:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.83]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KPC00J97WFGKM@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 14:23:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A38094363F for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 14:27:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.87]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F9C24363D for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 14:27:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83745456FF for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 14:27:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0538142C9E for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 14:20:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP02.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.197]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C048B42C9D for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 14:20:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FARBERMAC.ISRI.CMU.EDU (FARBERMAC.ISRI.CMU.EDU [128.2.220.234]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n82IKCCw009392 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 14:20:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 14:20:11 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] EOP solicitation, "Web Archive" To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <496B8849-31D2-4847-B475-ABAA3CC9049C@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=message-id :from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:date:references:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=ewWuNlhIuEQGkiPAF UkHEBqupxM=; b=YVFiyp7AD3nyQGegS/NhGfPE1FdRUt6VqvhEQXGCEnlfNiaNm D3RDRJn9ul1U5eeW5PKRKBybWU69Y8fNKu5ZQ== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.197 X-Listbox-UUID: 43CC6872-97ED-11DE-B474-6645BA7BDD05 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <6.2.0.14.2.20090902095519.05208da0@embassy.org> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Ross Stapleton-Gray Date: September 2, 2009 1:05:18 PM EDT To: dave@farber.net, Brewster Kahle Subject: EOP solicitation, "Web Archive" This solicitation came to my attention for someone's posting about it on FaceBook, forwarding a right-wing blog's talking it up as the White House wanting to vacuum all social media sites to collect information on detractors, a la Nixon's enemies list. So I figured I ought to post about it here, first, to beat the paranoid crowd to the podium: https://www.fbo.gov/spg/EOP/OP/WashingtonDC/WHO-S-09-0003/listing.html "The contractor shall provide the necessary services to capture, store, extract to approved formats, and transfer content published by EOP on publicly-accessible web sites, along with information posted by non-EOP persons on publicly-accessible web sites where the EOP offices under PRA maintains a presence, throughout the term of the contract. The contractor shall if possible, capture, store, extract to approved formats, and transfer content published by EOP on non-public websites. The contractor shall include in the information posted by non-EOP persons on publicly-accessible web sites where the EOP maintains a presence both comments posted on pages created by EOP and messages sent to EOP accounts on those web sites. Publicly-accessible sites may include, but are not limited to social networking sites. The contractor shall provide a user-friendly way of organizing and searching captured information. The contractor shall properly transfer the captured information, as identified by EOP, to NARA in an acceptable format for both preservation in NARA's Electronic Records Archive and presentation at the future Presidential Library. The Contractor shall provide a method to separate content posted by other EOP component offices as required." In a nutshell, the solicitation says, "The White House posts stuff online: we need someone to collect that for archival purposes [for the National Archives] along with all public comments that refer to those White House postings." This is exactly what I'd have recommended, re being responsive to the public discussion, in the information age. The scope is only what the White House itself posts, and what the public then, as public postings, says in comment to that. Bravo! (And recalling that the previous administration somehow managed to lose millions of e-mail records that ought to have similarly been delivered to NARA.) Ross ---- Ross Stapleton-Gray, Ph.D. Stapleton-Gray & Associates, Inc. http://www.stapleton-gray.com -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Thu Sep 3 09:11:11 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPE00H01CMEWJ@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:11:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPE00H01CM9W6@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:10:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPD00L01APYHO@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:32:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KPD00KBSAPY9T@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:32:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6A3246542 for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:35:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C586646541 for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:35:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2F7046752 for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:35:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B59A427E1 for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:34:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12EBF427E0 for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:34:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n82NX73F018740 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:34:35 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:34:35 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: Defining Broadband as General Purpose Platform To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1075.2) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1075.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=vcF6048hL+HiovuQE 3vEQ/cpt/s=; b=V5I0cETDZQSwrEHAR6IhhRbeUFnWfl760rvDDIOOKv74SjkZn fPU577y33oE9pLhQ/e5fb5GyJbTj/1JBfghqg== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 2D6A8BD2-9819-11DE-AC97-7D56BA7BDD05 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <4A9EC99B.88D3C5B1@RealMeasures.dyndns.org> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Seth Johnson Date: September 2, 2009 3:38:03 PM EDT To: dave@farber.net Subject: Defining Broadband as General Purpose Platform Reply-To: seth.johnson@RealMeasures.dyndns.org (Hi David -- You can put this out on IP if you wish. -- Seth) Comments - NBP Public Notice #1 GN Docket Nos. 09 47, 09 51, and 09 137 Regarding the Definition of "Broadband" By Seth Johnson The National Broadband Plan must define "broadband" according to a proper and full concept of what capabilities constitute "advanced telecommunications service." Broadband in this conception is constituted of two things: 1. a general purpose platform (in this document generally associated with the term "Internet" and its consensus protocols) which is optimized for maximum flexibility and application innovation, and 2. certain other functions that may optimize particular applications but that may compromise the flexibility of the general purpose platform. See RFC 4924, "Reflections on Internet Transparency" (http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc4924.txt): A network that does not filter or transform the data that it carries may be said to be "transparent" or "oblivious" to the content of packets. Networks that provide oblivious transport enable the deployment of new services without requiring changes to the core. It is this flexibility that is perhaps both the Internet's most essential characteristic as well as one of the most important contributors to its success. "Architectural Principles of the Internet" [RFC1958], Section 2 describes the core tenets of the Internet architecture: However, in very general terms, the community believes that the goal is connectivity, the tool is the Internet Protocol, and the intelligence is end to end rather than hidden in the network. The current exponential growth of the network seems to show that connectivity is its own reward, and is more valuable than any individual application such as mail or the World-Wide Web. This connectivity requires technical cooperation between service providers, and flourishes in the increasingly liberal and competitive commercial telecommunications environment. "The Rise of the Middle and the Future of End-to-End: Reflections on the Evolution of the Internet Architecture" [RFC3724], Section 4.1.1 describes some of the desirable consequences of this approach: One desirable consequence of the end-to-end principle is protection of innovation. Requiring modification in the network in order to deploy new services is still typically more difficult than modifying end nodes. The counterargument - that many end nodes are now essentially closed boxes which are not updatable and that most users don't want to update them anyway - does not apply to all nodes and all users. Many end nodes are still user configurable and a sizable percentage of users are "early adopters," who are willing to put up with a certain amount of technological grief in order to try out a new idea. And, even for the closed boxes and uninvolved users, downloadable code that abides by the end-to-end principle can provide fast service innovation. Requiring someone with a new idea for a service to convince a bunch of ISPs or corporate network administrators to modify their networks is much more difficult than simply putting up a Web page with some downloadable software implementing the service. RFC 4924 proceeds to list developments that may affect the advantages of the Internet's general purpose design based on the end-to-end principle and the transmitting of packets without regard for the application they are supporting, including: * Application Restrictions * Quality of Service (QoS) * Application Layer Gateways (ALGs) * IPv6 Address Restrictions * DNS Issues * Load Balancing and Redirection * Security considerations The principle of transmitting Internet datagrams without regard for the applications they support also provides for "network neutrality" as an emergent phenomenon. In addition, RFC 4084, "Terminology for Describing Internet Connectivity" (http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc4084.txt) provides a useful description of what constitutes "full Internet connectivity," considering this question with regard to its design for flexibility, including stipulations about functions that should be disclosed to the purchaser if they are deployed. RFCs 1958, 2775, and 3724 more fully describe these issues that arise as various functions are proposed that may affect the Internet's design for greatest flexibility. The Dynamic Platform Standards Project's legislative proposal for an "Internet Platform for Innovation Act" (http://www.dpsproject.com/legislation.html) recognizes the advantages of the design of the Internet Protocol. The DPS proposal provides a technical characterization of the general purpose platform provided by the Internet Protocol, including its provision of uniform treatment of packet flow. Recognizing and treating this general purpose platform as a distinct category allows the particular advantages for which it was designed to be acknowledged and provided for within the regulatory scheme while other telecommunications functions may be offered by network providers under the general term of "broadband" (and may eventually become part of consensus standards). This document only seeks to present some initial comments regarding the relevance of the general purpose platform to the questions raised in this request for public input. Here we refer chiefly to the design of the Internet according to consensus standards. However, it is worth noting that a general purpose platform can also be afforded by means of the principle of common carriage. Indeed, some might hold that the general scheme of digitizing communications into packets delivered on a best efforts basis regardless of application, in accordance with the Internet Protocol, is a natural outcome and a self-evidently necessary means for providing for interoperability and flexibility among the autonomous routers that were originally administered by thousands of competing Internet Service Providers on the basis of a common carriage principle. The general purpose platform must be a key component of the plan for using broadband infrastructure and services in advancing the full range of national purposes enumerated in section 6001 (k) (1) of the ARRA, and must be recognized as a key consideration in what constitutes "broadband capability." The status of deployment of "broadband" in your reporting should present the deployment of a general purpose platform as a distinct category from other types of advanced telecommunications service which may also be deployed, using the consensus definitions given in relevant RFCs as an analytical aid. A flexible, general purpose platform also contributes to the strategy for maximizing utilization since a platform that optimizes flexibility to make possible a proliferation of innovative applications incentivizes participation in connectivity. The general purpose platform should also be borne in mind in relation to the strategy for affordability, which should be developed with consideration of the issues of recourse and enforcement that arise in the context of public expeditures when contractual expectations related to such a platform are not met. A clear distinction should be maintained in your reporting and pursuit of national goals, between this general purpose, neutral platform and optimized telecommunications services that may diverge from the principles that provide for optimum flexibility and neutral transport. As part of the dynamic process of adapting benchmarks over time, the FCC should consult with experts and the public on 1. what constitutes the general purpose platform, 2. what innovations are recognized as not interfering with general purpose, 3. which may interfere with general purpose but are of value to some purchasers, and 4. in this last category, which functions should become a basis for a category of "consumer connectivity" rather than general purpose Internet connectivity. In addition, the FCC should consult with experts and the public on which functions or features should require explicit notice and consent given privacy considerations (as well as what form of consent is adequate for that purpose). Some additional important considerations the FCC should be mindful of are the implications of packet inspection, packet discrimination, data collection and end-user privacy, as well as the question of whether advertised services perform as specified, perhaps taking input from other appropriate agencies. Recourse and enforcement related to these concerns may be appropriate considerations. General comments on Benchmarks: Benchmarks should exhibit and track the rapid evolution both of the general purpose platform of the Internet and of broadband as a general term that may include other types of offerings. The widespread adoption of new Internet-based applications will affect what "advanced" means to purchasers of broadband, but this should not be construed as indicating that special optimization features that some providers may offer must equate with advanced telecommunications without consideration of their impact on the general purpose platform. "Dependability" and "experiential" metrics must be considered carefully in relationship to the advantages of a maximally flexible general purpose communications platform, as some functions that may improve these aspects for particular purposes may impair the general purpose character of the platform. In considering "the availability of advanced telecommunications capability to all Americans", broadband infrastructure data may be more objective than subscriber data, but data should be collected regarding general purpose connectivity as a distinct category, and the analysis should present availability in those terms in addition to the ease with which high speed can be deployed. Similar considerations apply in the analysis of utilization. "Broadband" and "advanced telecommunications capability" may be defined by statute as independent of "any transmission media or technology," but this does not mean that an analysis of advanced telecommunications capability should exclude describing the characteristic of a general purpose platform as a key category. Thank you. Seth Johnson (From http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=7020037177 ) -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Thu Sep 3 09:11:12 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPE00H01CMEWJ@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:11:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPE00H01CM9W6@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:10:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPD00L01ATWNN@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:34:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KPD00J9NATVUX@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:34:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B2D846E64 for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:38:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 563E746E62 for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:38:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EC82466CD for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:38:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38D17406EF for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:36:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC255406EE for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:36:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n82Na5VO018775 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:36:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:36:05 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: Request for input on the definition of Broadband To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1075.2) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1075.2) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_NKBnkS9z/zaXhb3D8Lsvxw)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:subject:date:references:to:message-id:mime-version :reply-to:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s= launch; bh=mv28SRUHjAl1fnq5AVNcWntSe5Y=; b=jfnpcUKlLrSkqk4Qvxcs0 6PrfHZX7dO2sq199tBtsEDFcyAJlCNt/3RKoywi6KI/Ng0IMjmT6TfMwppIeT1Rp A== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 64C75D76-9819-11DE-93DF-73E311F6C9C8 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_NKBnkS9z/zaXhb3D8Lsvxw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Begin forwarded message: =46rom: "Stan Hanks" Date: September 2, 2009 4:21:39 PM EDT To: Subject: RE: [IP] Re: Request for input on the definition of Broadban= d Years and years ago, I had some minor skin condition that I showed to= =20 my regular doctor. He took a look and said =93I=92m going to send you= down =20 the hall to Dermatology=94. I queried as to why, since he was the medical director of this very = =20 large practice in the heart of the Texas Medical Center, and I liked = =20 to give him grief any time he showed any shortcomings. He paused and said =93It=92s an =93Aunt Minnie=94 thing.=94 Couldn=92t let that stand unchallenged, so I pressed him. He elaborated, =93You know, you walk down the street and you see an = =20 older lady standing at a bus stop and you say =91Oh, that=92s Aunt = =20 Minnie=92, Anyone with whom you might be traveling could ask you, not= =20 unreasonably, =91So, how do you know it=92s her?=92 You can=92t reall= y explain =20 it elegantly =96 you grew up with her around all the time, you=92ve k= nown =20 her forever, you just know it=92s her. If really pressed, you could = =20 describe her in extreme detail =96 how tall she is, color of her hair= , =20 glasses, how she usually dresses, the mole on her nose, that sort of = =20 thing =96 but you=92d wind up with a description that could lead some= one =20 that doesn=92t know Aunt Minnie to mistakenly identify any number of = =20 older ladies as Aunt Minnie. I=92d rather send you to someone that ca= n =20 look at this and go =91Oh, it=92s X=92 rather than wade through a pil= e of =20 differential diagnosis and still have a decent chance of getting it = =20 wrong.=94 For me, =93good broadband=94 is an Aunt Minnie thing. I know it when I use it, and I know when I=92m not using it, but even= as =20 a skilled professional in the space, I am hard pressed to devise an = =20 adequately robust definition which will both survive the test of time= =20 and press of progress, AND not let someone fob off a vastly inferior = =20 product and claim it=92s good broadband because it meets the =20 definitional criteria. Stan =46rom: Dave Farber [mailto:dave@farber.net] Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 9:49 AM To: ip Subject: [IP] Re: Request for input on the definition of Broadband Begin forwarded message: > From: "David P. Reed" > Date: September 2, 2009 11:46:39 EDT > To: dave@farber.net > Cc: ip , Stagg Newman , Ro= b =20 > Curtis , Tom Brown > Subject: Re: [IP] Re: Request for input on the definition of =20 > Broadband > > Here is a concise, precise, and I believe complete, definition tha= t =20 > can serve as a good starting point. Readers may note that it is a = =20 > definition that has served the Internet well. It is 3 sentences lo= ng. > > Broadband is a low-latency and high-datarate access service that = =20 > provides ability to send and receive IP datagrams to hosts on the = =20 > worldwide public Internet, as defined by the full address space = =20 > defined by the IP versions currently used. The broadband transpor= t =20 > may use only the information placed into the IP header/envelope to = =20 > manage delivery, does not use, record, or retain content informatio= n =20 > for any purpose other than law enforcement purposes. The public = =20 > internet is defined as the reachable set of hosts on all autonomous= =20 > systems that have agreed to exchange Internet traffic with one or = =20 > more peer autonomous systems in the public Internet. > > Comments: this preserves technological evolvability, since it says= =20 > nothing about the technology underlying the transport, nor does it = =20 > say anything about the applications served. > > > On 09/02/2009 04:55 AM, David Farber wrote: > > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Mary Shaw > Date: September 1, 2009 6:01:00 PM EDT > To: dave@farber.net > Subject: Re: [IP] Request for input on the definition of Broadband > > Dave, > > Yes, surely "broadband" should be parsed out into bandwidth, =20 > latency, availability, and so on. > > More significantly, though, a useful definition will not be stated = =20 > in terms of specific values for those properties but rather will = =20 > adapt with changing technology and expectations. > > I would suggest this intuition for an adaptable definition: that a = =20 > "broadband" connection supports the vast majority of the currently = =20 > popular information resources on the internet with satisfactory = =20 > response time. That is, "currently popular" at the time the =20 > definition is invoked. As new applications emerge, they up the ant= e. > > For example, as people are induced to put their information into = =20 > "the cloud", broadband service should make that indistinguishable = =20 > from local storage, which means that fast uploads will be required = =20 > as well as fast downloads. Any form of offsite storage suffices fo= r =20 > this point -- I keep the master copies of my files on a university = =20 > server, so I really notice even brief service interruptions, and I = =20 > need symmetrical service rather than the common fast down/slow up = =20 > service because I need fast uploads for things like intermediate = =20 > file saves. > > Mary > > On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 11:07 AM, David Farber wro= te: > The other day I had a conversation with a friend at the Federal = =20 > Communications Commission. He asked an interesting question. When = =20 > people talk about broadband they tend to talk about numbers bits pe= r =20 > second except for. > > Something seems wrong with this approach. First it is very sensitiv= e =20 > to the advancement of technology any number will be obsolete in a = =20 > few years. Second of all, and maybe most important it ignores other= =20 > issues that would make any speed usable in many applications -- -- = =20 > like latency chair etc. He asked if there was a "syntax" for =20 > broadband -- -- that is a deeper way of characterizing when a syste= m =20 > supports broadband and when it does not. > > I offer to the IP community a chance to take a crack at this =20 > interesting and potentially profitable challenge. > > Dave > > > ------------------------------------------- > > > Archives > Archives ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_NKBnkS9z/zaXhb3D8Lsvxw) Content-type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

<= div>Begin forwarded message:

From: "Stan Hanks" <stan@colventures.com>
=
Date: September 2,= 2009 4:21:39 PM EDT
Subject: <= b>RE: [IP] Re: Request for input on the definition of Broadband=

Years and years ago, I had some = minor skin condition that I showed to my regular doctor. He took a look and said= =93I=92m going to send you down the hall to Dermatology=94.<= /font>

 <= /p>

I queried as to why, since he wa= s the medical director of this very large practice in the heart of the Texas <= st1:placename w:st=3D"on">Medical Center, and I= liked to give him grief any time he showed any shortcomings.=

 <= /p>

He paused and said =93It=92s an = =93Aunt Minnie=94 thing.=94

 <= /p>

Couldn=92t let that stand unchal= lenged, so I pressed him.

 <= /p>

He elaborated, =93You know, you = walk down the street and you see an older lady standing at a bus stop and you s= ay =91Oh, that=92s Aunt Minnie=92, Anyone with whom you might be traveling coul= d ask you, not unreasonably, =91So, how do you know it=92s her?=92 You can=92t reall= y explain it elegantly =96 you grew up with her around all the time, you=92ve know= n her forever, you just know it=92s her. If really pressed, you could describe her i= n extreme detail =96 how tall she is, color of her hair, glasses, how she usual= ly dresses, the mole on her nose, that sort of thing =96 but you=92d wind up with= a description that could lead someone that doesn=92t know Aunt Minnie to mistakenly= identify any number of older ladies as Aunt Minnie. I=92d rather send you to s= omeone that can look at this and go =91Oh, it=92s X=92 rather than wade through a= pile of differential diagnosis and still have a decent chance of getting it w= rong.=94

 <= /p>

For me, =93good broadband=94 is = an Aunt Minnie thing.

 <= /p>

I know it when I use it, and I k= now when I=92m not using it, but even as a skilled professional in the space, I am h= ard pressed to devise an adequately robust definition which will both sur= vive the test of time and press of progress, AND not let someone fob off a vas= tly inferior product and claim it=92s good broadband because it meets the definitional criteria.

 <= /p>

Stan

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

From: Dave Farber [mailto:dave@farber.net]
Sent: Wednesday, Septe= mber 02, 2009 9:49 AM
To: ip
Subject: [IP] Re: Requ= est for input on the definition of Broadband

 




Begin forwarded message:

From: "David P. Reed" <dpreed@reed.co= m>
Date: September 2, 200= 9 11:46:39 EDT
To: dave@farber.n= et
Cc: ip <ip@v2.listbox.com>, Stagg Newman= <lsnewmanjr@yahoo.com= >, Rob Curtis <robert.curtis@fcc.gov>, Tom Brown <thomas.brown@fcc.go= v>
Subject: Re: [IP] Re:  Request for input on the de= finition of Broadband

Here is a concise, precise,  and I believ= e complete, definition that can serve as a good starting point. Readers= may note that it is a definition that has served the Internet well.  It i= s 3 sentences long.

Broadband is a low-latency and high-datarate access service that prov= ides ability to send and receive IP datagrams to hosts on the worldwide pu= blic Internet, as defined by the full address space defined by the IP vers= ions currently  used.  The broadband transport may use only the information placed into the IP header/envelope to manage delivery, do= es not use, record, or retain content information for any purpose other than= law enforcement purposes. The public internet is defined as= the reachable set of hosts on all autonomous systems that have agreed to = exchange Internet traffic with one or more peer autonomous systems in the publ= ic Internet.

Comments:  this preserves technological evolvability, since it s= ays nothing about the technology underlying the transport, nor does it sa= y anything about the applications served. 


On 09/02/2009 04:55 AM, David Farber wrote:

 

 

Begin forwarded message:

 

From: Mary Shaw <mary.shaw@gmail.com>

Date: September 1, 2009 6:01:00 PM EDT=

Subject: Re: [IP] Request for input on= the definition of Broadband

Dave,

Yes, surely "broadband" should be parsed out into bandwidth, latency, availability, and so on.

More significantly, though, a useful definition will not be stated in= terms of specific values for those properties but rather will adapt with chang= ing technology and expectations.

I would suggest this intuition for an adaptable definition: that a "broadband" connection supports the vast majority of the currently popular information resources on the internet with satisfactory respo= nse time.  That is, "currently popular" at the time the definition is invoked.  As new applications emerge, they up the ante. 
For example, as people are induced to put their information into "the cloud", broadband service should make that indistinguishable from loc= al storage, which means that fast uploads will be required as well as fa= st downloads.  Any form of offsite storage suffices for this point = -- I keep the master copies of my files on a university server, so I really not= ice even brief service interruptions, and I need symmetrical service rather th= an the common fast down/slow up service because I need fast uploads for thin= gs like intermediate file saves.

Mary

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 11:07 AM, David Farber <dave@farber.net> wrote:

The other day I had a conversation with a friend at the Feder= al Communications Commission. He asked an interesting question. When peo= ple talk about broadband they tend to talk about numbers bits per second excep= t for.

Something seems wrong with this approach. First it is very sensitive = to the advancement of technology any number will be obsolete in a few years.= Second of all, and maybe most important it ignores other issues that would make= any speed usable in many applications -- -- like latency chair etc. He asked if= there was a "syntax" for broadband -- -- that is a deeper way of characterizing when a system supports broadband and when it does not.

I offer to the IP community a chance to take a crack at this interest= ing and potentially profitable challenge.

Dave


-------------------------------------------
w" target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">
target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">
ank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">http://www.listbox.com

 

 

Archives

 


--Boundary_(ID_NKBnkS9z/zaXhb3D8Lsvxw)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Thu Sep 3 09:11:14 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPE00H01CMEWJ@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:11:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPE00H01CM9W6@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:10:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPD00L01AVWW1@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:35:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KPD00JAMAVWUX@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:35:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17EBC44C92 for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:39:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16E3844C8F for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:39:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0582443E1 for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:39:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85FF3406DD for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:33:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D781406DC for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:33:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n82NX73D018740 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:33:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:33:06 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: Request for input on the definition of Broadband To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <37CFA914-5BD7-4DB3-86BE-2D38C6451EC0@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1075.2) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1075.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=8SOSEblF9YneCVFKx Hdm4gRNgYA=; b=lY8uCMt+yPH6w7w+sWVYnQUskcMKDMYKhENx2rVH2+nbivgKs 8q6e0wCmetaZSNkGbyjVJ+lzuR0WRDKuA8Uyg== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: F9B70F90-9818-11DE-A39A-19B611F6C9C8 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <4A9EE0F6.7000605@cequs.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Peter Bachman Date: September 2, 2009 5:17:42 PM EDT To: dave@farber.net Subject: Re: Request for input on the definition of Broadband Dear Dave, Having just listened to the FCC panel on proposed measurement and metrics of broadband, I could not help but thinking of Edward Whitehouse, and the dogged perseverance of the telegraph projectors to create global communications infrastructure after the first cable failure. Far more extravagant claims of social benefits were heard around the U.S. as to what would happen with high speed global communications and society as a result in the 1850s. Hubbell and Sherburne convinced only one senator that volcanic activity had created a shell paved path across the Atlantic, and did not get funded for their cable. (The Icelanders had already figured out the connection with the first legal distance measurement for round trips, the ping, or Pingvellir for their legislature at the site of meeting of the two tectonic plate in 930). Edward Whitehouse, electrician-projector Atlantic Cable, 1858 http://atlantic-cable.com/Books/Whitehouse/BJH/index.htm -pb peterb@cequs.com David Farber wrote: > > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Bruce R Koball > Date: September 2, 2009 1:22:32 PM EDT > To: Dave Farber > Cc: ip > Subject: Re: [IP] Re: Request for input on the definition of Broadband > > Dave, > > On the premise that there are no stupid questions, I'd like to ask the > IP collective whether services that are not directly mediated by the > internet, like digital cable TV, considered part of "broadband"...? > > -brk- > > On Wed, 2 Sep 2009, Dave Farber wrote: > >> >> Begin forwarded message: >> >>> From: "David P. Reed" >>> Date: September 2, 2009 11:46:39 EDT >>> To: dave@farber.net >>> Cc: ip , Stagg Newman , Rob >>> Curtis , Tom Brown >>> Subject: Re: [IP] Re: Request for input on the definition of >>> Broadband >> >>> Here is a concise, precise, and I believe complete, definition that >>> can serve as a good starting point. Readers may note that it is a >>> definition that has served the Internet well. It is 3 sentences >>> long. >>> Broadband is a low-latency and high-datarate access service that >>> provides ability to send and receive IP datagrams to hosts on the >>> worldwide public Internet, as defined by the full address space >>> defined by the IP versions currently used. The broadband transport >>> may use only the information placed into the IP header/envelope to >>> manage delivery, does not use, record, or retain content information >>> for any purpose other than law enforcement purposes. The public >>> internet is defined as the reachable set of hosts on all autonomous >>> systems that have agreed to exchange Internet traffic with one or >>> more peer autonomous systems in the public Internet. >>> Comments: this preserves technological evolvability, since it says >>> nothing about the technology underlying the transport, nor does it >>> say anything about the applications served. >>> On 09/02/2009 04:55 AM, David Farber wrote: >>>> Begin forwarded message: >>>> From: Mary Shaw >>>> Date: September 1, 2009 6:01:00 PM EDT >>>> To: dave@farber.net >>>> Subject: Re: [IP] Request for input on the definition of Broadband >>>> Dave, >>>> Yes, surely "broadband" should be parsed out into bandwidth, >>>> latency, availability, and so on. >>>> More significantly, though, a useful definition will not be stated >>>> in terms of specific values for those properties but rather will >>>> adapt with changing technology and expectations. >>>> I would suggest this intuition for an adaptable definition: that a >>>> "broadband" connection supports the vast majority of the currently >>>> popular information resources on the internet with satisfactory >>>> response time. That is, "currently popular" at the time the >>>> definition is invoked. As new applications emerge, they up the >>>> ante. >>>> For example, as people are induced to put their information into >>>> "the cloud", broadband service should make that indistinguishable >>>> from local storage, which means that fast uploads will be required >>>> as well as fast downloads. Any form of offsite storage suffices for >>>> this point -- I keep the master copies of my files on a university >>>> server, so I really notice even brief service interruptions, and I >>>> need symmetrical service rather than the common fast down/slow up >>>> service because I need fast uploads for things like intermediate >>>> file saves. >>>> Mary >>>> On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 11:07 AM, David Farber >>>> wrote: >>>> The other day I had a conversation with a friend at the Federal >>>> Communications Commission. He asked an interesting question. When >>>> people talk about broadband they tend to talk about numbers bits >>>> per second except for. >>>> Something seems wrong with this approach. First it is very >>>> sensitive to the advancement of technology any number will be >>>> obsolete in a few years. Second of all, and maybe most important it >>>> ignores other issues that would make any speed usable in many >>>> applications -- -- like latency chair etc. He asked if there was a >>>> "syntax" for broadband -- -- that is a deeper way of characterizing >>>> when a system supports broadband and when it does not. >>>> I offer to the IP community a chance to take a crack at this >>>> interesting and potentially profitable challenge. >>>> Dave >>>> ------------------------------------------- >>>> Archives >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------- > > > > > ------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Thu Sep 3 09:11:15 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPE00H01CMEWJ@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:11:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPE00H01CM9W6@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:10:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPD00L01AWPWI@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:36:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.83]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KPD00JAWAWPUX@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:36:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2707A44F2E for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:39:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.87]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23FE944F2C for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:39:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09F4E457C2 for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:39:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9095B406E2 for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:33:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C15F406E1 for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:33:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n82NX73E018740 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:33:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 19:33:48 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: Putting All of Our E-mail Eggs in One Basket: Gmail Down Once again To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <6EE58DF6-B223-4D26-B5E5-6044F8096A53@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1075.2) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1075.2) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_e3FDCa9v3aKs+Rs32JA4KQ)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:subject:date:references:to:message-id:mime-version :reply-to:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s= launch; bh=khjx2DJHNLOhP6zgCnVnJwRRLX8=; b=hZYDJN72rbnAHCMgTecBB wDJa+ta7IPIuLX/zLT7EGQeOej6BSelxgBndrY9FVBKl09PLBYqZoz1TpmVRBSWO Q== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 10FAC41C-9819-11DE-9822-5CBE11F6C9C8 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_e3FDCa9v3aKs+Rs32JA4KQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Begin forwarded message: =46rom: "Jonathan B Spira" Date: September 2, 2009 4:33:11 PM EDT To: David Farber Subject: Putting All of Our E-mail Eggs in One Basket: Gmail Down Onc= e =20 again Dave For IP: "Regardless of what the headline reads, the fact is that more and mor= e =20 people are relying upon a free e-mail service, Gmail, for business = =20 purposes. When it fails, which it seems to do with alarming alacrity, Gmail = =20 users go crazy. Yesterday, Gmail was down yet again, this time for = =20 almost two hours." Continued at http://www.basexblog.com/2009/09/02/putting-all-of-our-e= -mail-eggs-in-one-basket-gmail-down-once-again/ Regards/Mit freundlichen Gr=FC=DFen/Sz=EDv=E9lyes =FCdv=F6zlet/Cordia= lement/=20 Cordiali saluti/Saludos/V=E4nliga h=E4lsningar /s/ Jonathan Jonathan B. Spira CEO and Chief Analyst Basex, Inc. www.basex.com ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_e3FDCa9v3aKs+Rs32JA4KQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

<= div>Begin forwarded message:

From: "Jonathan B Spira" &= lt;jspira@basex.com>
Date: September 2, 2= 009 4:33:11 PM EDT
To: David Farber <dave@f= arber.net>
Subject: Putting All of Our E-mail Eggs in One Basket: Gmai= l Down Once again


Dave

For IP:

"Reg= ardless of what the headline reads, the fact is that more and more people are= relying upon a free e-mail service, Gmail, for business purposes.

When it fails, which it seems to do with alarming alac= rity, Gmail users go crazy.  Yesterday, Gmail was down yet again, this= time for almost two hours."

Continued at http://www.basexblog.com/2009/09/02/putting-all-of-our-e-ma= il-eggs-in-one-basket-gmail-down-once-again/


Regards/Mit freundlichen Gr= =FC=DFen/Sz=EDv=E9lyes =FCdv=F6zlet/Cordialement/Cordiali saluti/Saludos/V=E4nliga h=E4lsnin= gar

/s/ Jonathan

Jonathan B. Spira
CEO and Chief Analyst
Basex, Inc.
www.basex.com


--Boundary_(ID_e3FDCa9v3aKs+Rs32JA4KQ)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Thu Sep 3 09:11:16 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPE00H01CMEWJ@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:11:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPE00H01CM9W6@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:10:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPD00D01YNIK1@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 04:09:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.83]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KPD00C6JYNI1R@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 04:09:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3EC544A8F for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 04:12:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.87]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B18AB44A8E for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 04:12:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F7FD4578F for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 04:12:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44EB7418D1 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 04:06:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP02.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.197]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17AC7418CF for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 04:06:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n8386kc2016882 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 04:06:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 04:06:46 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] IPhone Users Love the Device, but Hate Its Slowness - NYTimes.com To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1075.2) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1075.2) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_HNPLARV6QkQmsbl9uYLTlg)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:subject:date:message-id:to:mime-version:reply-to :list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=XtT3aaYxuWmkmEdemDV3k+hKCvQ=; b=UO56HZ0b16b4zMvF0Fi9jHazemuV 8QRzHYlnaS7Z9lTwkveSaFCfun54u56+GyE51u//mKTeXJZMrcu84qnCfQ== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.197 X-Listbox-UUID: BA7CF6DA-9860-11DE-99BA-140612F6C9C8 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_HNPLARV6QkQmsbl9uYLTlg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Talks about ATT http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/03/technology/companies/03att.html?_r=1&ref=global-home ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_HNPLARV6QkQmsbl9uYLTlg) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Talks about ATT


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/03/technology/companies/03att.html?_r=1&ref=global-home

--Boundary_(ID_HNPLARV6QkQmsbl9uYLTlg)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Thu Sep 3 09:11:17 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPE00H01CMEWJ@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:11:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPE00H01CM9W6@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:10:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPE00L0132XKU@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 05:44:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KPE00JFJ32X7F@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 05:44:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B93114760C for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 05:48:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6E5B4760B for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 05:48:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B386D47BA1 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 05:48:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B591843B9B for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 05:47:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP02.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.197]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76E4143B9A for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 05:47:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n839kd2M017111 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 05:47:21 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 05:47:21 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: IPhone Users Love the Device, but Hate Its Slowness - NYTimes.com To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <7094706D-09AB-472C-BDB4-0252AF27C076@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1075.2) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1075.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=lNYXp6N0jPLV1xoJV v3J/mQxYJs=; b=cno3cQfhAMRehwdrQJ2JewUDa9J2wbBxd6tegY2iiOmU8fcdn 3s59SVWAX8BCBIunyoLpy9m2kHJSepTAeJTGw== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.197 X-Listbox-UUID: C7EABF7E-986E-11DE-8187-0005BA7BDD05 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <007901ca2c71$846f1740$8d4d45c0$@org> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: "Ray Everett" Date: September 3, 2009 4:35:38 AM EDT To: Subject: RE: [IP] IPhone Users Love the Device, but Hate Its Slowness - NYTimes.com > Talks about ATT > > http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/03/technology/companies/03att.html?_r=1&ref= global-home (for IP if you wish) I love my iPhone, but in my experience there's plenty of blame to go around. Apple gets some for the iPhone's underpowered processor that sometimes struggles to keep up with even simple system demands. E.g., it can sometimes take my 3G phone nearly 10 seconds to open the system settings menu. It frequently bogs down when doing things like checking mail, switching or discovering WiFi, etc. The network itself can be pretty pokey too, and AT&T has done a miserable job of building capacity in dense areas; I can be sitting on my couch in the middle of San Francisco and have a call drop and all my "bars" disappear for upwards of a minute or two, because the cell has become saturated. But bad content developers share the blame too. When I was travelling in Europe last year, I became keenly aware that the seemingly simple process of logging into the Facebook app long enough to post a status message could require nearly 300k of data transfer. Same with many other apps and their associated feeds... All that glorious XML ain't skinny! Of course the simple-minded thing is lay primary blame on AT&T (Apple fans wouldn't dare blame Apple, of course), and I'd agree that AT&T needs to do better. But when the apps and data feeds are bloated and ineffectively optimized, and the processor stumbles over its own OS, there's plenty of blame for everybody involved. Cheers, -Ray -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Thu Sep 3 09:11:18 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPE00H01CMEWJ@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:11:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPE00H01CM9W6@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:10:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPE00M0139S1X@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 05:49:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KPE00IMO39S3F@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 05:49:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBA87452CA for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 05:52:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8CE1452C9 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 05:52:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A618A45BEA for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 05:52:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83CEF43B8C for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 05:46:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP02.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.197]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A4E243B88 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 05:46:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n839kd2L017111 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 05:46:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 05:46:38 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Reuters: U.S. Internet providers seek low broadband bar To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0EB940FA-0846-47E9-B8AA-D7804EC2BA64@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1075.2) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1075.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 (Normal) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:reply-to :list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=0o1AEB6Vr8Igg3UzASaFOo8oa5Y=; b=dgRxzPWSiLxFFGmZHH2nb7Gxhuzy jJYi9T2fz+Z+NMX4+EJ/AgL0XtQGA3lg47r7lsOvdqvCx/Aq8Tth0D93ew== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.197 X-Listbox-UUID: AFF1CBD8-986E-11DE-8863-6BEEB97BDD05 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <39477.174.17.210.58.1251953844.squirrel@www.bobrosenberg.phoenix.az.us> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: bobr@bobrosenberg.phoenix.az.us Date: September 3, 2009 12:57:24 AM EDT To: "Dave Farber" Subject: Reuters: U.S. Internet providers seek low broadband bar Dave I suppose we could make the ISPs happier if we (the U.S.) define 'broadband' as anything equal to, or greater than, 56k. However, I might not like that. [Mumble-Grumble] Cheers, Bob -- Bob Rosenberg P.O. Box 33023 Phoenix, AZ 85067-3023 Mobile: 602-206-2856 LandLine: 602-274-3012 bob@bobrosenberg.phoenix.az.us U.S. Internet providers seek low broadband bar 09.01.09, 08:08 PM EDT http://www.forbes.com/feeds/afx/2009/09/01/afx6839478.html By John Poirier WASHINGTON, Sept 1 (Reuters) - The biggest U.S. Internet service providers urged regulators to adopt a conservative definition of 'broadband,' arguing for minimum speeds that were substantially below many other nations. [snip] -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Thu Sep 3 09:11:19 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPE00H01CMEWJ@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:11:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPE00H01CM9W6@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:10:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPE00M013GHEM@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 05:53:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KPE00L6F3GHY5@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 05:53:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8FDD4551A for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 05:56:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E683045519 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 05:56:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8C8A4586B for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 05:56:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65FA743BB4 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 05:50:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP02.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.197]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AADF43BB3 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 05:50:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n839oK5i017130 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 05:50:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 05:50:20 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] GOOD READING Defining Broadband as General Purpose Platform To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0661A5F0-89F8-48DA-9455-239621AEFBFF@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1075.2) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1075.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=Nw1PXiL6xYl79DtLz wEN5bUrpoA=; b=ilETdAmgzuVUdtFLXj6oKMtdaROaquApfO0Pb5fYssDDNh8tS VUGzeH/4OxV+XMmBfrw/mKCQpMs+l/zYhJ9sw== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.197 X-Listbox-UUID: 330188B0-986F-11DE-9BC0-6758BA7BDD05 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <4A9F1A4E.9080504@cavebear.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Karl Auerbach Date: September 2, 2009 9:22:22 PM EDT To: dave@farber.net Cc: ip Subject: Re: [IP] Re: Defining Broadband as General Purpose Platform (Sorry for the length, but I've been thinking about some of this stuff in preparation for Dan L.'s gathering in the morning.) In all of this talk about broadband and what the internet is (and is not) an important part is being overlooked: maintenance and repair. Perhaps my viewpoint is colored by the fact that my grandfather was a radio repairman and my father was a television repairman. But it seems to me that an internet isn't much good if it does not work. In the pursuit of the end-to-end principle or the idea of the "oblivious" network we engineers have tended to forget that things do go awry, and that Mr. Murphy (and his law) seem to make those things happen at the worst possible times. We are in an era in which the internet is moving from a lashup of individually operated networks to a global utility. Old Ma Bell, despite her predatory ways, gave us a communications structure that was amazingly reliable - it still forms the standard of excellence when we say "lifeline grade". Users of the net are starting to act as if the internet offered lifeline grade services. We here know that the net does not offer that grade of service, and in many regards is explicitly designed to take the easy way out of operational troubles - it throws away data. However, the internet is starting to experience a crunch between user expectations and engineering reality. Our historical experience over the last century is that user expectation coerces engineering - for example, product liability laws, reflecting consumer desires, have strongly shaped and re-shaped everything from automobiles to scissors, often at great expense to the manufacturers and sometimes causing the disappearance of products that can not be made without violating expectations that have ossified into law (or the quasi law of insurance premiums that reflect legal product liability expenses.) In our goal to deploy better internet services we ought to begin to consider adopting some engineering ideas that, although somewhat foreign to internet design, are well accepted in other engineering disciplines. Let me start with one that cause the loudest squeals: legal liability for negligent design and implementation. Please notice that I suggest a contextual and flexible standard of negligence rather than that of strict liability. The reason I think that liability is justified is that my company (InterWorking Labs, http://www.iwl.com/ ) does protocol testing of real products. We see a lot of the underbelly of the net and while some of it is of high quality, a significant part is not. There are other things: - Design rules that designers and implementors can violate only upon a concrete statement explaining why. For example, one of the most common forms of net software error is caused by buffer overruns. A design rule that says "use expansible buffers" would help redress that weakness. Of course we who write code do so because it is fun to do - and design rules would make it far less fun. - The net takes far too long to diagnose and repair: We need to develop a science of internet pathology so that we can begin to build tools that can reason backwords from perceived effects to root causes. - And in the pursuit of diagnosis and repair, we need to start building explicit test points into network products so that they can be used to evaluate the net from their point of view. When I worked at a large net equipment vendor I suggested to the CTO that we take a cue from the automobile industry and create a diagnostic interface, including a physical plug point. I was shot down because "it would cost too much" - One can make (jaded) conjectures about that vendor's perception of the balance between product costs and customer operational expenses. - I have long been on a hobbyhorse about adapting some biological ideas into internet engineering. Biological systems are often highly stable in a way that the internet is not. I attribute that to the fact that biological systems often have layers of competing mechanisms that operate on different inputs and over different time scales so that the failure of one layer is compensated by the others. We are starting to see some of this creeping into internet protocols - TCP backoff and recovery in the face of congestion provides a nice and seemingly effective counter pressure to applications that want to send as fast as they can. I'd like to see that kind of counter-pressure be pushed all the way up to applications so that they can do things better than simply slamming into a wall when a send socket blocks and refuses to take any more data for a while. - We need to stop viewing the internet as a collection of individual boxes and begin to start seeing it as a complex distributed system. This change in perspective might not really mean much most of the time, but it is important to have when we start to consider how "adjustment" of one part of the net might have an effect on other parts of the net. - I heard that the Google outage that occurred this week triggered a cascade of cross-infrastructure failures that made it hard for people to get their hands around the problem and make a repair. As we move more to a broadband world, we ought to make sure to set aside certain systems so that they remain relatively isolated, and insulated, from the net. We've seen how one such isolated system - ham radio operators - have proven worth during emergencies when more cross-linked infrastructures crumble. There is a cross-cutting concern in all of this: Security. On one hand network diagnostic and repair tools are like surgical scalpels - very useful when wielded by skilled, trusted hands but very dangerous when used by an amateur or with malice. On the other hand layers of security will make it very hard to repair net failures even when skilled people know what is wrong and know how to fix it. A lot of what I'm suggesting here is not going to be inexpensive, easy, or painless. Some is beyond current technology. Much of this changes the image of the internet from a free-and-easy place where one often hears the phrase "routing around problems" to an image more like that of the old telco world. But I think that is part of the price we are going to have to pay to achieve a broadband utility that has quasi- or near-lifeline quality. By-the-way, I am a big fan of the "stupid network" idea. But I believe in intelligent management, diagnosis, and repair. --karl-- -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Sep 4 08:36:41 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPG00N015P0UH@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:36:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPG00N015OXU5@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:36:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPE00J01CZJFV@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:19:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KPE00I8MCZJCB@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:18:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7347470EE for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:22:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A52BF470EC for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:22:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3D6C472E6 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:22:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83B3F416A6 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:20:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP03.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.198]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23A49416A3 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:20:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.5] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n83DKjp3003871 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:20:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:20:40 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] My Comments on "Broadband" as a General Purpose Platform To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1075.2) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1075.2) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_lE5/RCcm46PcmaFGumR5Jg)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:subject:date:references:to:message-id:mime-version :reply-to:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s= launch; bh=YhVBhXye61bzw7JSw3OP58rBjUY=; b=TjL0ARzPeS2dA6TPzLy6G q0ZHW18AA0mQRg5Qw8vnoWCyXBDw3pBZHPlbWldjVITCaC5+iu1VQAZiDMqm679k Q== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.198 X-Listbox-UUID: 99EF5440-988C-11DE-A2F0-87D011F6C9C8 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <7d19cc9a0909030427o38542b64n9173c61aeed7136d@mail.gmail.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_lE5/RCcm46PcmaFGumR5Jg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Begin forwarded message: =46rom: Rahul Tongia Date: September 3, 2009 7:27:40 AM EDT ************ Dave, There's a balance between flexibility and narrow specifications, and = =20 subjective measures always lead to other problems. Certainly speed i= s =20 easier to define but applications drive what is required in terms of = =20 specs (not just bandwidth, i.e., bits/sec [and not the EE defn. of = =20 bandwidth] or jitter, etc.). Other characteristics that are of importance that might want to be = =20 covered: Openness (ability to run ports/applications - also destinations allow= ed) "Always on" nature Total usage allowed. direction of speeds (up vs. down) network reliability network predictability (they shouldn't be able to WAAAAY overprovisio= n =20 it - some overprovisioning is the norm, and good) multi-homing and redundancy Broadband is also a moving target (1 mbps, 10 mbps, 100 mbps, etc.) = =20 Thus, broadband might be not just "x" but x(t). Before trying to answer this Q, I think pondering about other labels = =20 that have strong meanings and confusion is helpful. E.g., "green" (or= =20 even "organic". Some solutions have been to have a certification = =20 agency or body make the definition, and then have the rights to updat= e =20 the standard for compliance. E.g., a "green" product today might only= =20 need 20% carbon footprint reduction but 5 years from now it might = =20 require 50% reduction. Importantly, when a product touts itself as being "green" or =20 "organic", the provider is not the one who is allowed to say so - an = =20 external body often sets the rules. The catch is that we don't want= =20 an overbearing, burdensome, or expensive certification process. Broadband to me is also just a means of accessing the broader public = =20 Internet, so as the Internet evolves, broadband might also need to = =20 evolve. If I had to take a stab at it, what I would like from a broadband = =20 service provider is something like (and this is conservative in terms= =20 of speed given I am in India right now!): A high-speed (1+ megabits per second, growing over time) consistent, = =20 predictable connection to the public Internet allowing me the end-use= r =20 to freely use the Internet as I legally see fit. [people can modify = =20 the speed as they desire] Rahul On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 4:32 PM, David P. Reed wrote= : You underscore my point. More TV is where you focus. I'd suggest = =20 that your defensiveness is not helping. On 09/03/2009 02:01 AM, Bruce Kushnick wrote: > > And one other thing. > > > David wrote: > >However, there are people like Kushnick and the TV industry who = =20 > will push the discussion to focus on TV. > > My focus on video as part of broadband is because =96 people watch = TV, =20 > whether online or using cable. Video is the one of the =91killer= =92 apps. > > I call your attention to actual usage =96 TV is still the largest u= se =20 > of time it seems --- > > http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-10297935-93.html > > =93However, people are still watching TV at the same rate (13 hours= =20 > per week) regardless of being able to stream their favorite shows = =20 > online. And, while 25 percent of people online watch full-length TV= =20 > shows on the Internet, those same people also maintain 13 hours per= =20 > week of TV.=94 > > B. > > > ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_lE5/RCcm46PcmaFGumR5Jg) Content-type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

<= div>Begin forwarded message:

From: Rahul Tongia <tongia.cmu@gmail.com>
=
Date: September 3,= 2009 7:27:40 AM EDT

<= /div>************

Dave,

There's a balance between flexi= bility and narrow specifications, and subjective measures always lead to other problems= .  Certainly speed is easier to define but applications drive what is required in terms of specs (not just bandwidth, i.e., bits/sec [and n= ot the EE defn. of bandwidth] or jitter, etc.). 

Other characteristics that are of importance that might want to b= e covered:
Openness (ability to run ports/applications - also dest= inations allowed)
"Always on" nature
Total usage allowed.
di= rection of speeds (up vs. down)
network reliability
network predictability (they shouldn't be able= to WAAAAY overprovision it - some overprovisioning is the norm, and = good)
multi-homing and redundancy

Broadband is also a movin= g target (1 mbps, 10 mbps, 100 mbps, etc.) Thus, broadband might be n= ot just "x" but x(t).  

Before trying to answer this Q, I think pondering about other labels that have strong meanings and confusion is helpful. E.g., "green" (or even "organic".  Some solutions have been to have a certification agency or body make the definition, and then have the rights to update the standard for compliance. E.g., a "green" product today might only need 20% carbon footprint reduction but 5 years from now it might require 50% reduction.  

Importantly, when a product touts itself as being "green" or "organic", the provider is not the one who is allowed to say so - an external body often sets the rules.  The catch is  that we = don't want an overbearing, burdensome, or expensive certification process.  = ;

Broadband to me is also just a means of accessing the broader public Internet, so as the Internet evolves, broadband might also nee= d to evolve.  

If I had to take a stab at it, what I would = like =66rom a broadband service provider is something like (and this is conservative in terms of speed given I am in India right now!):

A high-speed (1+ megabits per second, growing over time) consistent, predictable connection to the public Internet allowing me the end-user to freely use the Internet as I legally see fit.  [= people can modify the speed as they desire]

Rahul

On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 4:32 PM, David P. R= eed <dpreed@reed.com> wrote:
=20
You underscore my point.&= nbsp; More TV is where you focus.  I'd suggest that your defensiveness= is not helping.


On 09/03/2009 02:01 AM, Bruce Kushnick wrote:
=20 =20 =20

And one other thing.

 

David wrote:
>However, there are people like Kushnick and the TV industry who will push the discussion to focus on TV.

My focus on video as part of broadband is because =96 people watch TV, whether online or using cable. Video is the one of the =91killer=92 apps.

I call your attention to actual usage =96 TV is still the largest use of tim= e it seems ---

http://news.cnet.com/8= 301-1023_3-10297935-93.html

=93However, people are still watching TV at the same rate (13 hours per week) regardless of being able to stream their favorite shows online. And, while 25 perce= nt of people online watch full-length TV shows on the Internet, those same people also maintain 13 hours per week of TV.=94

B.=


 


--Boundary_(ID_lE5/RCcm46PcmaFGumR5Jg)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Sep 4 08:36:42 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPG00N015P0UH@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:36:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPG00N015OXU5@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:36:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPE00J01D7OYO@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:23:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KPE00IFKD7NCB@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:23:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD23047B5C for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:27:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB6EB47B5A for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:27:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8E8647417 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:27:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FE6F416D9 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:25:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6DAE416D8 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:25:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.5] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n83DPjm9024751 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:25:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:25:44 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: IPhone Users Love the Device, but Hate Its Slowness - NYTimes.com To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1075.2) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1075.2) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_GtzGOgvvnkQh+hcuxQJFug)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:subject:date:references:to:message-id:mime-version :reply-to:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s= launch; bh=GPVrC8j63U9zTGl+BG5myWV4Lw4=; b=iz5zC/DUO8H9jsV+EXepw OlFPL1g+bIAYsFYJePRhAugoXokIvaImWTXR6DoX+hQcvSFKZ1qtxrmesAbt0BhZ A== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 4A31F51A-988D-11DE-B974-65C811F6C9C8 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <4A9FA6BB.1070303@reed.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_GtzGOgvvnkQh+hcuxQJFug) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Begin forwarded message: From: "David P. Reed" Date: September 3, 2009 7:21:31 AM EDT To: dave@farber.net Cc: ip Subject: Re: [IP] Re: IPhone Users Love the Device, but Hate Its Slowness - NYTimes.com Just to add one data point, I am an AT&T user with a 3G Modem dongle, using Fedora 11 as my client software on an HP mini 1040 netbook - Atom CPU. (I don't tether with an iPhone - in fact I don't use an iPhone). I don't experience any performance problems whatever, either in interaction or big downloads. I recently downloaded a gigabyte while driving through CT on the Merritt Parkway (my wife was driving...). And it works great on the train to NYC. As an engineer, I'd be interested to see actual data that supports the claims that ATT's network capacity is the big problem. { ATT itself has a motive to claim it is "being overloaded" - it is under investigation as a possible monopolist-overstepping-the-special-rules- for-monopolists, and claiming it needs all the help it can get, if believed, is a good defense and political support builder, as we all know. It's a version of the Hush-a-phone defense - "we need every protection we can get because it's really hard to make these profits" :-).} Wireless network demand is going to grow at a strong exponential rate. It has been doing so for several decades. This makes it easy to predict that ATT must build more capacity, and even to predict how much. That's not easy - it's why they are paid such enormous profits- before-reinvestment - to reinvest. On 09/03/2009 05:47 AM, David Farber wrote: > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: "Ray Everett" > Date: September 3, 2009 4:35:38 AM EDT > To: > Subject: RE: [IP] IPhone Users Love the Device, but Hate Its > Slowness - NYTimes.com > >> Talks about ATT >> >> > http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/03/technology/companies/03att.html?_r=1&ref= > global-home > > (for IP if you wish) > > I love my iPhone, but in my experience there's plenty of blame to go > around. Apple gets some for the iPhone's underpowered processor that > sometimes struggles to keep up with even simple system demands. > E.g., it > can sometimes take my 3G phone nearly 10 seconds to open the system > settings menu. It frequently bogs down when doing things like checking > mail, switching or discovering WiFi, etc. > > The network itself can be pretty pokey too, and AT&T has done a > miserable > job of building capacity in dense areas; I can be sitting on my > couch in > the middle of San Francisco and have a call drop and all my "bars" > disappear for upwards of a minute or two, because the cell has become > saturated. > > But bad content developers share the blame too. When I was > travelling in > Europe last year, I became keenly aware that the seemingly simple > process > of logging into the Facebook app long enough to post a status > message could > require nearly 300k of data transfer. Same with many other apps and > their > associated feeds... All that glorious XML ain't skinny! > > Of course the simple-minded thing is lay primary blame on AT&T > (Apple fans > wouldn't dare blame Apple, of course), and I'd agree that AT&T needs > to do > better. But when the apps and data feeds are bloated and ineffectively > optimized, and the processor stumbles over its own OS, there's > plenty of > blame for everybody involved. > > Cheers, > -Ray > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_GtzGOgvvnkQh+hcuxQJFug) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

<= div>Begin forwarded message:

From: "David P. Reed" <= dpreed@reed.com>
=
Date: September 3, 2009 7= :21:31 AM EDT
To= : dave@farber.net
<= /div>Subject: Re: [IP] Re: IPhone = Users Love the Device, but Hate Its Slowness - NYTimes.com

Just to add one data poin= t, I am an AT&T user with a 3G Modem dongle, using Fedora 11 as my client software on an HP mini 1040 netbook - Atom CPU.  (I don't= tether with an iPhone - in fact I don't use an iPhone).

I don't experience any performance problems whatever, either in interaction or big downloads.  I recently downloaded a gigabyte = while driving through CT on the Merritt Parkway (my wife was driving...).&n= bsp; And it works great on the train to NYC.

As an engineer, I'd be interested to see actual data that supports th= e claims that ATT's network capacity is the big problem.  { ATT it= self has a motive to claim it is "being overloaded" - it is under investigation as a possible monopolist-overstepping-the-special-rules-for-monopolists, and claimi= ng it needs all the help it can get, if believed, is a good defense and political support builder, as we all know.  It's a version of th= e Hush-a-phone defense - "we need every protection we can get because it's really hard to make these profits" :-).}

Wireless network demand is going to grow at a strong exponential rate= .  It has been doing so for several decades.  This makes it easy to predict that ATT must build more capacity, and even to predict how much.   That's not easy - it's why they are paid such enorm= ous profits-before-reinvestment - to reinvest.

On 09/03/2009 05:47 AM, David Farber wrote:


Begin forwarded message:

=46rom: "Ray Everett" <ray@everett.org>
Date: September 3, 2009 4:35:38 AM EDT
To: <dave@farber.net>
Subject: RE: [IP] IPhone Users Love the Device, but Hate Its Slowness= - NYTimes.com

Talks about ATT


http://www= .nytimes.com/2009/09/03/technology/companies/03att.html?_r=3D1&re= f=3D
global-home

(for IP if you wish)

I love my iPhone, but in my experience there's plenty of blame to go
around. Apple gets some for the iPhone's underpowered processor that
sometimes struggles to keep up with even simple system demands. E.g., it
can sometimes take my 3G phone nearly 10 seconds to open the system
settings menu. It frequently bogs down when doing things like checkin= g
mail, switching or discovering WiFi, etc.

The network itself can be pretty pokey too, and AT&T has done a miserable
job of building capacity in dense areas; I can be sitting on my couch in
the middle of San Francisco and have a call drop and all my "bars"
disappear for upwards of a minute or two, because the cell has become
saturated.

But bad content developers share the blame too. When I was travelling in
Europe last year, I became keenly aware that the seemingly simple process
of logging into the Facebook app long enough to post a status message could
require nearly 300k of data transfer. Same with many other apps and their
associated feeds... All that glorious XML ain't skinny!

Of course the simple-minded thing is lay primary blame on AT&T (Apple fans
wouldn't dare blame Apple, of course), and I'd agree that AT&T needs to do
better. But when the apps and data feeds are bloated and ineffectivel= y
optimized, and the processor stumbles over its own OS, there's plenty of
blame for everybody involved.

Cheers,
-Ray






-------------------------------------------
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--Boundary_(ID_GtzGOgvvnkQh+hcuxQJFug)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Sep 4 08:36:43 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPG00N015P0UH@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:36:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPG00N015OXU5@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:36:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPE00K01DHTKO@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:29:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.83]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KPE00D0ODHS4J@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:29:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA89A4445D for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:33:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.87]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C86144445C for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:33:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93B2947A9F for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:33:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11161416E0 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:26:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 928BF416DF for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:26:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.5] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n83DQrIw024795 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:26:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 09:26:53 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] OS X !! Snow Leopard ships with vulnerable Flash Player | Zero Day | ZDNet.com To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <49F0609C-38F1-4079-B49B-11E8C7D3C60E@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1075.2) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1075.2) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_lhjUMVgX/2dSiarNzhQh+A)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:subject:date:message-id:to:mime-version:reply-to :list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=nJtWOwK7y5+XliR6t0bwM4wcjro=; b=fDM1JnbhUet+TSROCptHH8XRsSS/ JabJ13Fzv7YhU58uyjeNj9Lu0SZnECCifRZEIFu4XIZIXjCCoBU2IdyLag== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 746657A4-988D-11DE-B4CD-27DB11F6C9C8 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_lhjUMVgX/2dSiarNzhQh+A) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Adobe has fix http://blogs.zdnet.com/security/?p=4175&tag=nl.e589 ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_lhjUMVgX/2dSiarNzhQh+A) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Adobe has fix


http://blogs.zdnet.com/security/?p=4175&tag=nl.e589

--Boundary_(ID_lhjUMVgX/2dSiarNzhQh+A)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Sep 4 08:36:44 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPG00N015P0UH@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:36:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPG00N015OXU5@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:36:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPE00L01LBKBD@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 12:19:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KPE00JF9LBJO8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 12:18:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A01E458CC for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 12:22:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36AFD458CA for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 12:22:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14FE246D3B for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 12:22:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FA3C43153 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 12:15:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP02.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.197]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BE6443151 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 12:15:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n83GFPlq021743 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 12:15:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 12:15:25 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Broadband To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <2CA90FC3-A2C4-4F29-99B9-445F6DCE542F@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1075.2) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1075.2) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_rxsRE1s5pruxsTL+V+Sj3A)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:subject:date:references:to:message-id:mime-version :reply-to:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s= launch; bh=h3PydvAqo6crMuQhMbO5rFaki8A=; b=UEeXvV8FuAPblDyGpzv3Y AOBFDLqrkPfTYQL4SXQGUsixri9tV5HqX38jGQ3CJyydZG98ZjYeHL4Y+oeXcxZ+ A== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.197 X-Listbox-UUID: FE2861D2-98A4-11DE-8E83-092BBA7BDD05 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <856FCE123AEC40B795106477C0F41D91@rick> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_rxsRE1s5pruxsTL+V+Sj3A) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Begin forwarded message: From: "Rick Adams" Date: September 3, 2009 10:57:14 AM EDT To: Subject: Broadband Let's define broadband as 1% of the speed of the Ethernet interface on a modern laptop. That would make it 10 Mbps based on the last few laptops I bought ($650 each - mid range) which feels about right. Alternatively you can make it the fastest theoretical speed of currently deployed wireless data, with 3G would make it 14.4 mbps downlink and 5.8 mbps up. this way as technology marches forward, the definition of broadband automatically increases. ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_rxsRE1s5pruxsTL+V+Sj3A) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

<= div>Begin forwarded message:

From: "Rick Adams" <Rick.Adams@Cello.Net>
=
Date: September 3,= 2009 10:57:14 AM EDT
Subject: <= b>Broadband

 
Let's define=20 broadband as 1% of the speed of the Ethernet interface on a modern= =20 laptop.
 
That would=20 make it 10 Mbps based on the last few laptops I bought ($650 each - m= id range)=20 which feels about right.
 
Alternatively=20 you can make it the fastest theoretical speed of currently deployed w= ireless=20 data, with 3G would make it 14.4 mbps downlink and 5.8 mbps=20 up.
 
this way as=20 technology marches forward, the definition of broadband automatically= =20 increases.
 
 

--Boundary_(ID_rxsRE1s5pruxsTL+V+Sj3A)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Sep 4 08:36:45 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPG00N015P0UH@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:36:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPG00N015OXU5@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:36:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPE00L01LCOE6@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 12:19:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KPE00JG3LCOO8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 12:19:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9038A45CDD for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 12:23:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B69A45CDB for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 12:23:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6492346F3E for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 12:23:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D4BD41337 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 12:16:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP02.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.197]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 525B641335 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 12:16:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n83GFPlr021743 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 12:16:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 12:16:13 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: Trying to understand a conceptual disconnect To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <982B27BE-A915-4171-B93A-053F32D51D2C@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1075.2) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1075.2) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_jUPmrMD9S6Fz9klgBEdzVw)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:subject:date:references:to:message-id:mime-version :reply-to:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s= launch; bh=ca8JodPgo2LLeS7vrO18yKcng8Y=; b=llGaeXLy47ijgtGuB7Izc Y2G0uz3+q1+2bjFSeE/USP5tLgL1Nam/lljaR4cvsrhP7w+JXAXDDSfeU/KgMGds A== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.197 X-Listbox-UUID: 1A2C4EE8-98A5-11DE-9D36-62AB11F6C9C8 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <008901ca2ca7$3f9fd380$bedf7a80$@frankston.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_jUPmrMD9S6Fz9klgBEdzVw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Begin forwarded message: =46rom: "Bob Frankston" Date: September 3, 2009 11:00:16 AM EDT To: "Prof. David J. J Farber" Subject: Trying to understand a conceptual disconnect I think Karl Auerbach=92s comments sharpen the issue. The question is whether are a dealing with bad design and derelict = =20 players who aren=92t providing the network or services that we need o= r =20 whether we have a structural problem in trying to treat the Internet = =20 as a network rather than as an idea that enables us to communicate an= d =20 create solutions without having depending in there being a network as= =20 such. (UUCP being an example) ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_jUPmrMD9S6Fz9klgBEdzVw) Content-type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

Begin forwarded message:

= =46rom: "Bob Frankston" <Bob19-0501@bobf.frankston.com>
Date: September 3, 2009 11:00:16 AM E= DT
To: "Prof. D= avid J. J Farber" <dave@farber.= net>
Subj= ect: Trying to understand a conceptual disconnect
<= /div>
I think Karl Auerbac= h=92s comments sharpen the issue.
 =
The question is whether are a dealing with bad de= sign and derelict players who aren=92t providing the network or servi= ces that we need or whether we have a structural problem in trying to= treat the Internet as a network rather than as an idea that enables = us to communicate and create solutions without having depending in th= ere being a network as such. (UUCP being an example)
=
 
 
<= /div>

--Boundary_(ID_jUPmrMD9S6Fz9klgBEdzVw)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Sep 4 08:36:46 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPG00N015P0UH@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:36:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPG00N015OXU5@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:36:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPE00101O2KZ1@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 13:18:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KPE00PGKO2K7M@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 13:18:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2338947815 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 13:21:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21B8247814 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 13:21:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EDAA4759B for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 13:21:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B6D44341D for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 13:20:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E1764341C for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 13:20:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n83HKenR028542 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 13:20:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 13:20:39 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Google Patents World's Simplest Home Page To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1075.2) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1075.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=Axn+/PFN60aDfp9/S gwDL2ABBdo=; b=Hba7dLdlZAZBku7JDYSZSs+zZY6xvcD2JHmPe8mF1xGVKe+AE PbNsYxMiL0D3fGRNlQ4dN6jkxInS6nwk6mi3g== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 1C40B1FC-98AE-11DE-A8EF-8E0FBA7BDD05 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <4C1E5697-0E61-42DB-B831-7B35B2BC6342@infowarrior.org> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Richard Forno Date: September 3, 2009 12:40:11 PM EDT To: Infowarrior List Cc: Dave Farber Subject: Google Patents World's Simplest Home Page http://valleywag.gawker.com/5350982/google-patents-worlds-simplest-home-page After a five-and-a-half-year fight, Google and its attorneys have managed to convince federal bureaucrats to bestow a patent on the company's iconic home page. We always thought the page was brain-dead simple, but apparently it's an innovative "graphical user interface." Google had more luck patenting the design of its search results, which were submitted along with the home page in early 2004 cleared the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office at the end of 2006. The home page, in contrast, was split off into a separate application, receiving its design patent for a "Graphical user interface for a display screen of a communications terminal" just yesterday. The document (see below) is as minimalist as the interface, containing a single illustration of Google.com , with the company logo depicted in dotted lines to indicate it is not an integral part of the patent. In other words, subject to how the patent is enforced, Google owns the idea of having a giant search box in the middle of the page, with two big buttons underneath and several small links nearby. Since the time of the patent application in 2004, the company has moved some links, for searching News and Groups and other alternate databases, from directly above the search box to the top of the home page. But Google presumably believes its patent is broad enough to cover the variation. -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Sep 4 08:36:47 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPG00N015P0UH@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:36:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPG00N015OXU5@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:36:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPE00301OID1W@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 13:28:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KPE0025BOICF5@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 13:27:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 610F447446 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 13:31:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E4A347445 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 13:31:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A37A47ECC for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 13:31:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC7074347F for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 13:30:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 230274347E for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 13:30:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n83HU1Cu028911 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 13:30:02 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 13:30:00 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] EPIC's Privacy Report Card on the Obama Administration To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <6A300EE5-E3E5-4375-A2DB-4052DA80C2CA@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1075.2) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1075.2) Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_O6TKg7wwPQTEkL0I35Woaw)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:subject:date:references:to:message-id:mime-version :reply-to:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s= launch; bh=uNECibDltxyx6bs1TNMCIUjI07M=; b=QrnNvhheiTfxHd/RqH2o4 yxqS7viBE+W8gRiPlL7vuSna3mISug6VIMHF3sdIG6p9lwBxAoner9BSIQiIEaX6 w== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 6B454816-98AF-11DE-9FAF-E325BA7BDD05 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <67521847-0765-419E-9944-2E6DA6B4F036@epic.org> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_O6TKg7wwPQTEkL0I35Woaw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Begin forwarded message: From: Lillie Coney Date: September 3, 2009 11:45:36 AM EDT To: dave@farber.net Subject: EPIC's Privacy Report Card on the Obama Administration Dear Dave, EPIC and the Privacy Coalition are releasing the Privacy Report Card for the Obama Administration. There will be a National Press Club event on Wednesday, September 9, 2009 from 8:30- 10:00 AM. A panel of privacy experts will review the topics of consumer privacy, medical privacy, civil liberties, and cyber security. The public is also invited to join in the discussion through their participation in an online scorecard. We are trying to get this out to as many people as possible before the event next Wednesday. I have attached the media alert for your information. I hope that you will be able to share this opportunity with others. The link is http://privacycoalition.org/reportcard/ The graphic is attached to this message. --Boundary_(ID_O6TKg7wwPQTEkL0I35Woaw) Content-type: image/tiff; x-mac-hide-extension=yes; x-unix-mode=0644; name=obama-reportcard.tiff Content-transfer-encoding: BASE64 Content-disposition: inline; filename=obama-reportcard.tiff TU0AKgAAdsiAPR1uJ/gCDQeEQmFQuGQ2HQ+IRGJROKRWLReMRmNRuOR2PR+QSGRS OSSWTSeUSmVSuUQKCSyYTGZTOaTWbTecTmdTueT2fT+XQWf0OiUWjUekUmlUumU2 nQ2g0+pTZ9ABvNRxgB5QcFBUNAATBcE1OyWWzWelPR2u4AOp6PmDgQAAUEAMAA0G AwABAFga0RZ+OsAJ1FLUANF8PsABockkAHgkhycVG/yt8uEAG4nqMAJ6KA+9GIej AAGwuj2wA+7SF6toAEopqoAMKDiwplYAMgyibK72KNVTpsADdQumKj4XCsAHc1kU AD8P3rfdOdONoMQAItJMDOuaMZJkq0wAAVgvqQl6t0AFgpqcALSDj4slkALYviPJ wOheeSPn1CwJ73PgjYHheABvlSJoAAqkD/PXAL3vi+b6vu/kLIQ4DhOI4yNL0XRS jgAAdAnC6pH6ABtGMZYAGGbZzoMEoeAAMYdQYkUTmMTZMgAIxWrYhoHgk9YPoMah wrYah4oQvRflbEIavNC8HDJCBUIOJkJlRCqbspEsGvVKj3SsgwfCmKQAFcMIQgAc xqGaAA9Dw7kBoPIUmjUAEoJMfi4y9PyDQy4bioMDUDGuS4jgABB0HAABSEqWAAD6 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([67.165.107.113]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 40sm308551aga.38.2009.09.03.11.57.05 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5) ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 11:57:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 14:56:04 -0400 From: Dave Farber Subject: [IP] Trying to understand a conceptual disconnect To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <8C20430E-6F57-4355-B41D-E8193985D384@me.com> MIME-version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7A400) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7A400) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_Q5U1OZ2xSXudMg1q5qxi+w)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=message-id :from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:date:references:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=c6m5edhY8HfV4Lzdb S3EhdHWGrM=; b=e/VrXqQdsp9ZCjjET8x0ZrTEIhkQqUmT053s5RYCZgPsG2SbW lHzbLOps4J/lKUJOSCwTmMQScqbqvpP/lSnVg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:mime-version :subject:date:references; bh=2j3gggyuxyuggchtnQ9AjRLHN6cmfKHd9Ymvf77/heg=; b=I0Uc30rr6SL83MzepAOiIUg6U/E0+hWz/a7BZB2mmSUtgin1u0HQZNttCTSIeCb3N6 /OJUtl4AWs0Mj3qXwFjxW+YJRuFtQfNZN7j+DOoFcGac3RtAmCjOply7A2ppkInIVivw a7bAb0/kfljrdfaYKKdj+QX23RScvmJcmE2mo= X-Listbox-UUID: 954B03D8-98BB-11DE-9DA0-95BF949BE6CB X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :x-mailer:mime-version:subject:date:references; b=CHWdeHR1em0ME0EhIkheLh+/GYJMBkHLrhDDfQiSp9Ae9jOXGBTLegRZhZIcunImBC jMC+wBfoUaI6xTQiQBJkQ+9Lr9uRHvuUlyLbpSsSx2lMLUhJR/gqJAthzAbjtJCSyxg1 ckOtyi0ogC4SKPUtCkG96ikHlavMJ83EJD/XQ= --Boundary_(ID_Q5U1OZ2xSXudMg1q5qxi+w) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Begin forwarded message: > From: Stan Hanks > Date: September 3, 2009 14:50:55 EDT > To: dave@farber.net > Subject: RE: [IP] Re: Trying to understand a conceptual disconnect > > I read =E2=80=93 and re=E2=80=94read =E2=80=93 Karl=E2=80=99s comme= nts with keen interest. =20 > And Bob=E2=80=99s comment is, as usual, spot-on. > > We have one set of people talking about =E2=80=9CThe Internet=E2= =80=9D from a =20 > =E2=80=9Cbig idea=E2=80=9D perspective =E2=80=93 they know what it = means to them, to =20 > their lives, and how they imagine it shaping their future (sort of = l=20 > ike television =E2=80=93 they know what it means to them, but have = no clue h=20 > ow it works, from the picture appearing on the tube all the way bac= k=20 > to where does content actually come from). We have another set of = p=20 > eople talking about it from a bits-and-bytes-and-packets level. And= =20 > of course, we have yet another constituency trying to figure out ho= w=20 > to make it maximally profitable for themselves, at the expense of = b=20 > oth of the other groups=E2=80=A6 J > > Having moved from being a protocol developer to network engineer to= =20 > the executive suite where no, really, you do have to figure out to = =20 > make all this technology make money, I=E2=80=99ve seen this up clos= e and per=20 > sonal in a way that I would prefer not to have, in many ways. > > In a couple of the bigger networks for which I was responsible, I = =20 > lobbied for, and finally got, budget concessions to insert test = =20 > points and equipment that =E2=80=9Cdid nothing=E2=80=9D unless ther= e was some =20 > kind of failure. In a really big network, that gets expensive, figu= r=20 > e another 7-10% cost to construct. I fortunately did this in a time= =20 > where it was easier to justify capital expenditure that reduced ope= r=20 > ational costs, because money for that sort of investment was readil= y=20 > available. Today, not sure it would be so easy. > > At Enron, one of the discussions we had continually was the need fo= r =20 > instrumentation all the way down to the end-user computer, some kin= d =20 > of applications running on the desktop, in the enterprise (no one = =20 > was talking about =E2=80=9Chome LANs=E2=80=9D but it would certainl= y apply =20 > today), at the firewall, and up into the last-mile ISP. Packet loss= =20 > on video was (and is) a real application killer; the need to figure= =20 > out exactly where that is happening is key to being able to fix it.= =20 > From the end-user perspective, it=E2=80=99s just broken, but who th= e hell do=20 > you call? As a backbone operator with a platform carefully enginee= r=20 > ed to be congestion-free, I was pretty sure that the packet loss wa= s=20 > n=E2=80=99t going to be in my network, but I sure needed to know wh= ere it wa=20 > s, if only to =E2=80=9Cprove my own innocence=E2=80=9D=E2=80=A6 > > The Internet moved from being a =E2=80=9Cresearch network=E2=80= =9D to =20 > =E2=80=9Ccommercial=E2=80=9D nearly 20 years ago. Let=E2=80=99s not= forget that. Rick =20 > Adams broke that ground back in the late 80s, and it=E2=80=99s been= all down=20 > hill since. Now it=E2=80=99s moving from =E2=80=9Ccommercial=E2= =80=9D to =E2=80=9Cutility =20 > grade=E2=80=9D. > > In one of the talks I used to give, I pointed out that when you com= e =20 > home from work, and turn on your lights in your house, your neighbo= r=20 > =E2=80=99s lights don=E2=80=99t dim, and if they did we would find = that to be =20 > unacceptable. However, we take it as normal that the Internet slows= =20 > down in peak periods =E2=80=93 when kids get home from school, when= people g=20 > et home from work, in the 9PM to midnight period when adults are tr= y=20 > ing to use it after the kids have gone to bet, weekends, holidays, = e=20 > tc. We =E2=80=9Cget it=E2=80=9D that some things just swamp the dem= and for =20 > bandwidth =E2=80=93 Victoria=E2=80=99s Secret promos, death of famo= us people, =20 > releases of new downloadable content. And we can equate that to pea= k=20 > period overuse in an unseasonably hot summer when everyone is runn= i=20 > ng air conditioning at full throttle, and accept that. But somehow,= =20 > it seems wrong to most people that =E2=80=9Cthe Internet =20 > companies=E2=80=9D (replacing =E2=80=9CThe Phone Company=E2=80=9D) = don=E2=80=99t spend the =20 > money to make sure that things don=E2=80=99t slow down when they us= e the net=20 > work =E2=80=9Croutinely=E2=80=9D. > > O=E2=80=99Dell said =E2=80=9Cit=E2=80=99s all about scale, and if y= ou aren=E2=80=99t scared, =20 > you just don=E2=80=99t understand=E2=80=9D a loonnnng time ago. Fra= nkly, it =20 > doesn=E2=80=99t matter how much you are scared =E2=80=93 you can= =E2=80=99t get the =20 > budget to build a network TODAY that=E2=80=99s big enough for tomor= row. And =20 > as we push more connection speed to the edge, it only gets worse. G= o=20 > rdon Cook posited back in I believe 2001 or 2002 that none of the I= n=20 > ternet backbone operators was making a profit on their backbone ope= r=20 > ations, and that most lost money. Having looked pretty hard at seve= r=20 > al businesses in that space since then, I=E2=80=99m pretty much inc= lined to =20 > agree =E2=80=93 unless you have an active end-user sales effort (li= ke Cogent=20 > ), I don=E2=80=99t think you can make it just shipping bits across = the wide =20 > area. > > All of which eventually drives back to network neutrality, and why = =20 > the big players don=E2=80=99t want to see that mandated =E2=80=93 i= f they=E2=80=99re =20 > losing money on the long haul carrying bits for others, they want t= h=20 > e opportunity to (a) not do so and (b) make money carrying bits for= =20 > their customers=E2=80=A6 > > > From: David Farber [mailto:dave@farber.net] > Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 9:16 AM > To: ip > Subject: [IP] Re: Trying to understand a conceptual disconnect > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: "Bob Frankston" > Date: September 3, 2009 11:00:16 AM EDT > To: "Prof. David J. J Farber" > Subject: Trying to understand a conceptual disconnect > > > I think Karl Auerbach=E2=80=99s comments sharpen the issue. > > The question is whether are a dealing with bad design and derelict = =20 > players who aren=E2=80=99t providing the network or services that w= e need or=20 > whether we have a structural problem in trying to treat the Intern= e=20 > t as a network rather than as an idea that enables us to communicat= e=20 > and create solutions without having depending in there being a net= w=20 > ork as such. (UUCP being an example) > > > > Archives > > ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_Q5U1OZ2xSXudMg1q5qxi+w) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE




Begin forwarded message:
From: Stan Hanks <= ;stan@colventures.com>=
Date: September 3, 2009 14:50:55 EDT
To: dave@f= arber.net
Subject: RE: [IP] Re:  Trying to= understand a conceptual disconnect

I read =E2=80=93 and re=E2=80= =94read =E2=80=93 Karl=E2=80=99s comments with keen interest. And Bob=E2=80=99s comment is, as usual, spot-on.<= o:p>

 <= /p>

We have one set of people talkin= g about =E2=80=9CThe Internet=E2=80=9D from a =E2=80=9Cbig idea=E2=80=9D perspective =E2= =80=93 they know what it means to them, to their lives, and how they imagine it shaping their future (sort of li= ke television =E2=80=93 they know what it means to them, but have no clue how it wo= rks, from the picture appearing on the tube all the way back to where does content = actually come from). We have another set of people talking about it from a bits-and-bytes-and-packets level. And of course, we have yet another constituency trying to figure out how to make it maximally profitable= for themselves, at the expense of both of the other groups=E2=80=A6 J

 <= /p>

Having moved from being a protoc= ol developer to network engineer to the executive suite where no, really= , you do have to figure out to make all this technology make money, I=E2=80= =99ve seen this up close and personal in a way that I would prefer not to have, in many = ways.

 <= /p>

In a couple of the bigger networ= ks for which I was responsible, I lobbied for, and finally got, budget conce= ssions to insert test points and equipment that =E2=80=9Cdid nothing=E2=80=9D u= nless there was some kind of failure. In a really big network, that gets expensive, figure anot= her 7-10% cost to construct. I fortunately did this in a time where it was easi= er to justify capital expenditure that reduced operational costs, because m= oney for that sort of investment was readily available. Today, not sure it wou= ld be so easy.

 <= /p>

At Enron, one of the discussions= we had continually was the need for instrumentation all the way down to the = end-user computer, some kind of applications running on the desktop, in the en= terprise (no one was talking about =E2=80=9Chome LANs=E2=80=9D but it would ce= rtainly apply today), at the firewall, and up into the last-mile ISP. Packet loss on video was= (and is) a real application killer; the need to figure out exactly where that = is happening is key to being able to fix it. From the end-user perspecti= ve, it=E2=80=99s just broken, but who the hell do you call? As a backbone operator wit= h a platform carefully engineered to be congestion-free, I was pretty sure that th= e packet loss wasn=E2=80=99t going to be in my network, but I sure needed to k= now where it was, if only to =E2=80=9Cprove my own innocence=E2=80=9D=E2=80=A6

 <= /p>

The Internet moved from being a = =E2=80=9Cresearch network=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Ccommercial=E2=80=9D nearly 20 years ago.= Let=E2=80=99s not forget that. Rick Adams broke that ground back in the late 80s, and it=E2=80=99s been all dow= nhill since. Now it=E2=80=99s moving from =E2=80=9Ccommercial=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Cuti= lity grade=E2=80=9D.

 <= /p>

In one of the talks I used to gi= ve, I pointed out that when you come home from work, and turn on your light= s in your house, your neighbor=E2=80=99s lights don=E2=80=99t dim, and if they = did we would find that to be unacceptable. However, we take it as normal that the Internet slow= s down in peak periods =E2=80=93 when kids get home from school, when people ge= t home from work, in the 9PM to midnight period when adults are trying to use it after = the kids have gone to bet, weekends, holidays, etc. We =E2=80=9Cget it=E2=80= =9D that some things just swamp the demand for bandwidth =E2=80=93 Victoria=E2=80=99s Secret promos, death of famous people, releases of new downloadable c= ontent. And we can equate that to peak period overuse in an unseasonably hot = summer when everyone is running air conditioning at full throttle, and accep= t that. But somehow, it seems wrong to most people that =E2=80=9Cthe Internet= companies=E2=80=9D (replacing =E2=80=9CThe Phone Company=E2=80=9D) don=E2=80=99t spend t= he money to make sure that things don=E2=80=99t slow down when they use the network =E2=80=9Croutinely= =E2=80=9D.

 <= /p>

O=E2=80=99Dell said =E2=80=9Cit= =E2=80=99s all about scale, and if you aren=E2=80=99t scared, you just don=E2=80=99t understand=E2=80= =9D a loonnnng time ago. Frankly, it doesn=E2=80=99t matter how much you are scared =E2=80=93 you can=E2= =80=99t get the budget to build a network TODAY that=E2=80=99s big enough for tomorrow. And as we push = more connection speed to the edge, it only gets worse. Gordon Cook posited back in I believ= e 2001 or 2002 that none of the Internet backbone operators was making a profit= on their backbone operations, and that most lost money. Having looked pretty h= ard at several businesses in that space since then, I=E2=80=99m pretty much = inclined to agree =E2=80=93 unless you have an active end-user sales effort (like Cogent), I don= =E2=80=99t think you can make it just shipping bits across the wide area.

 <= /p>

All of which eventually drives b= ack to network neutrality, and why the big players don=E2=80=99t want to see= that mandated =E2=80=93 if they=E2=80=99re losing money on the long haul carrying bits for ot= hers, they want the opportunity to (a) not do so and (b) make money carrying bits for= their customers=E2=80=A6

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

From: David Farber [mailto:dave@farber.net]
Sent: Thursday, Septem= ber 03, 2009 9:16 AM
To: ip
Subject: [IP] Re: Tryi= ng to understand a conceptual disconnect

 

 

 

Begin forwarded message:

 

From: "Bob Frankston" <Bob19-0501@bobf.frankston= .com>

Date: September 3, 2009 11:00:16 AM EDT

To: "Prof. David J. J Farber" <dave@farber.net>=

Subject: Trying to und= erstand a conceptual disconnect



I think Karl Auerbach=E2=80=99s comments sharpen t= he issue.

 

The question is whether are a dealing with bad des= ign and derelict players who aren=E2=80=99t providing the network or services= that we need or whether we have a structural problem in trying to treat the Internet = as a network rather than as an idea that enables us to communicate and cre= ate solutions without having depending in there being a network as such. = (UUCP being an example)

 

 

 

Archives

<= font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman">

 

--Boundary_(ID_Q5U1OZ2xSXudMg1q5qxi+w)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Sep 4 08:36:50 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPG00N015P0UH@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:36:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPG00N015OXU5@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:36:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPE00C01T3Z4Q@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 15:07:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KPE00ACNT3ZS3@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 15:07:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C6FB47EA2 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 15:10:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.38]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B70247EA1 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 15:10:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 571FD48C9B for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 15:10:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7405841D8B for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 15:09:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP03.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.198]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4855241D8A for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 15:09:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n83J9FYw009469 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 15:09:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 15:09:15 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: Google Patents World's Simplest Home Page To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1075.2) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1075.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=QQNPO5DSdnprQT3H+ m71o9J+JjY=; b=nRgjlnTUKrIAESpIDEDilqehL7yZuP5GAOZHydgU/aV+zKDDv uCrwiyslaPIbq6MGBWs6qUGja8Y5l/DhO2BjA== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.198 X-Listbox-UUID: 477987AE-98BD-11DE-9E6A-841312F6C9C8 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <222778.81863.qm@web30806.mail.mud.yahoo.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: =46rom: Tom Gray Date: September 3, 2009 2:30:25 PM EDT To: dave@farber.net, tom_gray_grc@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [IP] Google Patents World's Simplest Home Page As the original article stated, Google received a =93design patent= =94 not =20 a =93utility patent=94. Design patents protect the ornamental aspects= of a =20 design not any for of function. Function is the concern of utility = =20 patents. So someone may get a design patent on the form of a piece of= =20 jewelry,, etc They have protected the look of their home page. That i= s =20 all, Wikipedia explains it thusly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_patent In the United States, a design patent is a patent granted on the = =20 ornamental design of a functional item. Design patents are a type of = =20 industrial design right. Ornamental designs of jewelry, furniture, = =20 beverage containers (see Fig. 1) and computer icons are examples of = =20 objects that are covered by design patents [edit] Computer Images Both novel fonts and computer icons can be covered by design patents.= =20 Icons are only covered, however, when they are displayed on a compute= r =20 screen, thus making them part of an article of manufacture with =20 practical utility --- On Thu, 9/3/09, David Farber wrote: > From: David Farber > Subject: [IP] Google Patents World's Simplest Home Page > To: "ip" > Received: Thursday, September 3, 2009, 10:20 PM > > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Richard Forno > Date: September 3, 2009 12:40:11 PM EDT > To: Infowarrior List > Cc: Dave Farber > Subject: Google Patents World's Simplest Home Page > > > http://valleywag.gawker.com/5350982/google-patents-worlds-simplest-= home-page > > After a five-and-a-half-year fight, Google and its > attorneys have managed to convince federal bureaucrats to > bestow a patent on the company's iconic home page. We always > thought the page was brain-dead simple, but apparently it's > an innovative "graphical user interface." > > Google had more luck patenting the design of its search > results, which were submitted along with the home page in > early 2004 cleared the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office at > the end of 2006. The home page, in contrast, was split off > into a separate application, receiving its design patent for > a "Graphical user interface for a display screen of a > communications terminal" just yesterday. The document (see > below) is as minimalist as the interface, containing a > single illustration of Google.com, with the company logo > depicted in dotted lines to indicate it is not an integral > part of the patent. > > In other words, subject to how the patent is enforced, > Google owns the idea of having a giant search box in the > middle of the page, with two big buttons underneath and > several small links nearby. Since the time of the patent > application in 2004, the company has moved some links, for > searching News and Groups and other alternate databases, > from directly above the search box to the top of the home > page. But Google presumably believes its patent is broad > enough to cover the variation. > > > > > ------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________________________= ___ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark = =20 your favourite sites. Download it now http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com. -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Sep 4 08:36:51 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPG00N015P0UH@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:36:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPG00N015OXU5@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:36:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPE00D01TR5E6@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 15:21:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.83]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KPE00C5ATR5AW@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 15:21:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88BEC45462 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 15:24:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.87]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86BD245461 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 15:24:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72E1F47718 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 15:24:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65E5941D9C for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 15:10:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP03.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.198]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3354D41D9B for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 15:10:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n83JAUv9009509 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 15:10:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 15:10:29 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: Decline in Grad school admissions To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <39216FE5-6EDC-42C3-863B-1049F6BA475E@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1075.2) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1075.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=VyhAYddDcdTTv7MNB YNoffovK4w=; b=iepex9GYrKo1ZxbSfBmKZIVCJTdXmfYseaLAN8ZJM7s/hfX5l AV+JeoP32nx+bZyXW+hLJFPhNja8qM22afAWA== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.198 X-Listbox-UUID: 73858244-98BD-11DE-8380-A5B611F6C9C8 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: =46rom: Stephen Unger Date: September 3, 2009 2:29:02 PM EDT To: David Farber Cc: ip Subject: Re: [IP] Decline in Grad school admissions Industry people have been crying "shortage" for well over a decade. A= t NO time was this cry justified. Large numbers of competent, well educated engineers, programmers, and related professionals have had their careers terminated by the squeeze comprised of the import of H-1Bs, primarily from low-pay countries, and the export of jobs to th= e same countries. The problem is particularly acute now that we are in = a slump and engineers are being laid off. The H-1B program is not about bringing the brightest minds to our country. Very few H-1Bs are particularly bright. There are other visa programs that facilitate immigration of exceptional people. Many US engineers are required to train their H-1B replacements as a conditio= n for receiving severance pay. Note that unemployment numbers do not accurately reflect what has bee= n happening to US engineers. After trying unsuccessfully for six months to find an engineering job, an engineer typically goes into some othe= r line of work, such as real estate or retail sales. So he or she will not be counted as an unemployed engineer. The villains here are not the people who come here as H-1Bs. In fact, it is not uncommon for a former H-1B (who ultimately received a green card) to be displaced by a new H-1B. Rather, the damage is being done by corporations who care nothing for the well being of Americans as they ruthlessly cut payroll costs. Any particular company can claim that it is only responding to competitive pressure. But this does not excuse the fact that industry in general, and many corporation executives, vigorously oppose all efforts to protect US industry and workers with legislation that would combat competition from abroad based on low pay and environmental abuse. Norman Matloff, a leading expert on H-1B has written an excellent article on the subject, accessible at http://209.85.165.104/search?q=3Dcache:Je_C0OM-9fcJ:heather.cs.ucdavi= s.edu/MichJLawReform.pdf+%22On+the+Need+for+Reform+of+the+H-1B+Nonimm= igrant+Work+Visa%22&hl=3Den&ct=3Dclnk&cd=3D1&gl=3Dus The contention that what has happened to American industry and to American engineers is the result of "free market" forces is belied by such factors as the Chinese government maintaining its currency at an artificially low level and using various "technical" constraints to block imports to China (e.g., see the NY Times article at http://www.= nytimes.com/2009/07/14/business/energy-environment/14energy.html=20 ). Steve =2E........... Stephen H. Unger Professor Emeritus Computer Science and Electrical Engineering Columbia University =2E........... On Mon, 31 Aug 2009, David Farber wrote: > > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: vijay gill > Date: August 23, 2009 11:45:56 AM EDT > To: David Farber > Subject: Decline in Grad school admissions > > Dr. Farber, for IP if you wish. What does the list thing of this = =20 > article? > > http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/08/23/foreigners-attending-us-grad-s= chools-way-down-wake-up-xenophobes/ > > It=92s happening: Lou Dobbs=92 dream come true and Silicon Valley= =92s worst > nightmare. We=92re already seeing the reverse brain drain as smart > immigrants take their US educations and experience building compani= es > and creating technology back to their home countries. But now, > xenophobia and the lack of any sensible H-1B visa policy is keeping > the world=92s brightest minds from coming to the U.S. in the first > place. > > U.S. grad school admissions for would-be international students > plummeted this year, according to the Council of Graduate Schools= =97the > first decline in five years. The decline was 3% on average, thanks= to > increases from China and the Middle East, but some countries saw > double-digit declines in interest in a U.S. education. Applicants f= rom > India and South Korea fell 12% and 9% respectively=97with students > turning their sights on schools in Asia and Europe instead. > > This shouldn=92t be a surprise. Much of the world=92s economic > growth=97hence, jobs=97is in emerging markets, the schools are far = cheaper > and in many cases competitive academically, and then there=92s the = H-1B > issue. If America won=92t allow a PhD just trained in our top schoo= ls to > work here and contribute to the economy=97why come here and take on= the > student loans to begin with? > > Make no mistake: This is a huge blow for the United States, and > particularly Silicon Valley. It=92s killing diversity in graduate > schools at a time future business leaders most need to understand > other countries, especially Asian ones. Xenophobic, anonymous cowar= ds > may leave as much bile in the comments as they want: The reality is > one out of every four tech companies is started by an immigrant. In > the tech industry, immigrants have created more high paying jobs th= an > they=92ve =93stolen.=94 > > And nearly every CEO will tell you how much added cost and hassle > there is in hiring a foreign-born worker=97they do it because they > physically can not find enough appropriately skilled workers in the > U.S. (Below is an interview I did with LinkedIn=92s Reid Hoffman ab= out > this very subject a few months ago, and he wrote a guest post on > TechCrunch discussing the issue as well.) > > Indeed, a recent study by the Bay Area Council, the Campaign for > College Opportunity and IHELP showed that we=92d need a 90% upswing= in > people graduating with degrees in science, technology, math or > engineering to keep up with all the new jobs being created in that > discipline. What created Silicon Valley was a culture of openness = and > there is no future to Silicon Valley without it. > > You know that American dream and American spirit of innovation we > always talk about? Turns out, the bulk of it was built by people wh= o > came to America from somewhere else, not people born American. We h= ave > no birthright or natural lock on these things. Money and talent are > fungible assets that flowed to the U.S.=97and specifically the > Valley=97because that is where they were supported and rewarded. > > Some people have blithely dismissed growth in markets like China an= d > India saying Silicon Valley will always be the hub for tech; that > everyone will come to us. Wake up: Because the numbers are showing > money and talent is increasingly going elsewhere. > > (Flickr image by Stephen Pierzchala) > > > > > ------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Sep 4 08:36:52 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPG00N015P0UH@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:36:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPG00N015OXU5@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:36:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPE00I01WP0HP@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:24:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KPE00GORWP06D@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:24:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A80F45253 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:28:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47E7245252 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:28:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0740346FCD for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:28:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF2EB411BB for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:21:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP02.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.197]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A2F8411B9 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:21:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n83KLgci026979 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:21:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:21:42 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: Decline in Grad school admissions To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <7938A9E9-EB7B-4916-ABE6-7E17B679755E@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1075.2) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1075.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=MKTp7qFfOhstamN5V JflX6rcEyg=; b=VDdO33/qSv/8WLnuAgmKwyzbr4h0PmuWYqYjSeaIJBQwzApVY BRkQGKCslpJgyA9LibjpNgWEKqMLh55Wx6rhQ== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.197 X-Listbox-UUID: 67436BAE-98C7-11DE-909C-35BC11F6C9C8 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <2cda2fc90909031238n5f567ecob98188c3ae2957de@mail.gmail.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Hasan Diwan Date: September 3, 2009 3:38:24 PM EDT To: dave@farber.net Subject: Re: [IP] Re: Decline in Grad school admissions Dr Farber: As a recipient of an H1B myself, I am personally offended by Professor Unger's missive. I am from the United Kingdom (born and raised). One can say that employment does not measure "intelligence" completely, and yes, I agree with the assertion, but it does provide a subset of a metric to judge intelligence. The process of sponsorship is not straightforward, nor is it cheap. In my region of the country (northern California), my income is on the higher end of the salary scale. With regards to the scores of engineers who have lost their jobs, I apologise to the lot of you. But, scapegoating immigrants is not the answer to your problems. If you expel us, the economy will still need people with special skills. The specific skills may change (right now, it appears nursing/healthcare/education), but the economy will still need the skills. Regarding the field I'm most familiar with, China and India produce more engineers every year than the entire population of the United States. The United States needs more engineers than it can produce (even if EVERY high school student were to do electrical engineering/computer science/chemical engineering/etc., you still won't be able to satisfy demand). China and India have more engineers than their societies can provide jobs for, so they set out on the seven seas, land in places like Australia, the United States, and Europe and work there. Finding a job is a zero-sum game, but that's only once one has a number of qualified candidates. The reason we import engineers is because the company cannot find qualified people here. The process of obtaining an H1B is neither trivial nor cheap. Perhaps Professor Unger ought to try obtaining a work visa before he rails against those of us with one? 2009/9/3 David Farber : > > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Stephen Unger > Date: September 3, 2009 2:29:02 PM EDT > To: David Farber > Cc: ip > Subject: Re: [IP] Decline in Grad school admissions > > Industry people have been crying "shortage" for well over a decade. At > NO time was this cry justified. Large numbers of competent, well > educated engineers, programmers, and related professionals have had > their careers terminated by the squeeze comprised of the import of > H-1Bs, primarily from low-pay countries, and the export of jobs to the > same countries. The problem is particularly acute now that we are in a > slump and engineers are being laid off. > The H-1B program is not about bringing the brightest minds to our > country. Very few H-1Bs are particularly bright. There are other visa > programs that facilitate immigration of exceptional people. Many US > engineers are required to train their H-1B replacements as a condition > for receiving severance pay. -- Sent from my mobile device Envoyait de mon telephone mobil -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Sep 4 08:36:54 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPG00N015P0UH@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:36:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPG00N015OXU5@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:36:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPE00I01WPFK7@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:24:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KPE00H6TWPFII@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:24:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BC8345546 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:28:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 495AB45544 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:28:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11D1E46153 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:28:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFB2A43D55 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:22:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP02.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.197]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A80A743D53 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:22:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n83KLgcj026979 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:22:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:22:04 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: Google [maybe] [Design] Patents World's Simplest Home Page To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <4F875DA7-D31D-4C50-9BB9-04D3DBC7A672@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1075.2) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1075.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=t7F3yJEV5X3Illrwl jKO/zXxn+s=; b=ZKfqr+dG1UZLcZRePChGVtJUhzYUyMn9Tk8GFhwhaMPdrELS3 YeJ/47PVuiSSQrjVjBWamRDxg3m5wuhXCu0Xg== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.197 X-Listbox-UUID: 72B2D57E-98C7-11DE-897B-AA24BA7BDD05 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Ethan Ackerman Date: September 3, 2009 3:09:55 PM EDT To: dave@farber.net Subject: Re: [IP] Google [maybe] [Design] Patents World's Simplest Home Page Reply-To: eackerma@u.washington.edu Greetings Dave, The Valleywag article below confuses two fairly different types of patents, and in the process runs with that confusion to fairly predictable, overwrought results. The 2 Google patents the article discusses are "Design Patents," a different type of patent than the "utility" patents most readers are probably familiar with, Design patents have a much, much narrower scope. Think along the lines of the difference between patenting an internal combustion automobile engine and patenting the shape of a hood handle ornament. Wikipedia (presently) has a fairly good explanation of the difference between the 2 types of patents. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_patent Importantly, design patents are generally only valid if applied for within a year of first use. The Wayback machine's copy of the Feb. 2003 google homepage looks awfully similar to the layout in the patent. http://web.archive.org/web/20030217074521/http://www.google.com/ I wouldn't want to be the person charged with justifying all those filing fees and _years_ of lawyer billable time for such a minimal, questionably valid patent. Perhaps Valleywag gets it right in the end in suggesting it was a vanity exercise? On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 1:20 PM, David Farber wrote: > > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Richard Forno > Date: September 3, 2009 12:40:11 PM EDT > To: Infowarrior List > Cc: Dave Farber > Subject: Google Patents World's Simplest Home Page > > > http://valleywag.gawker.com/5350982/google-patents-worlds-simplest-home-page > > After a five-and-a-half-year fight, Google and its attorneys have > managed to > convince federal bureaucrats to bestow a patent on the company's > iconic home > page. We always thought the page was brain-dead simple, but > apparently it's > an innovative "graphical user interface." > > Google had more luck patenting the design of its search results, > which were > submitted along with the home page in early 2004 cleared the U.S. > Patent and > Trademark Office at the end of 2006. The home page, in contrast, was > split > off into a separate application, receiving its design patent for a > "Graphical user interface for a display screen of a communications > terminal" > just yesterday. The document (see below) is as minimalist as the > interface, > containing a single illustration of Google.com, with the company logo > depicted in dotted lines to indicate it is not an integral part of the > patent. > > In other words, subject to how the patent is enforced, Google owns > the idea > of having a giant search box in the middle of the page, with two big > buttons > underneath and several small links nearby. Since the time of the > patent > application in 2004, the company has moved some links, for searching > News > and Groups and other alternate databases, from directly above the > search box > to the top of the home page. But Google presumably believes its > patent is > broad enough to cover the variation. > > > > > ------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Sep 4 08:36:55 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPG00N015P0UH@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:36:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPG00N015OXU5@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:36:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPE00I01WSCT2@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:26:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KPE00H96WSCII@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:26:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46E514511D for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:30:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4434B4511C for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:30:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 279D3466F2 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:30:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5208E43D71 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:23:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP02.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.197]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B78643D6F for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:23:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n83KNQZ4027062 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:23:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:23:26 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: Putting All of Our E-mail Eggs in One Basket: Gmail Down Once again In-reply-to: <571ebf600909031219r16a34f0boccffe7d23d4ef907@mail.gmail.com> To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1075.2) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1075.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:reply-to :list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=6kqfuIxvWDbGRBRxaFLpiYx7Jco=; b=WAashRZwMY0Y6ypt3UHodcmf0uVO 69d2zplrdMyXxG/2AB2nz5F+cwW+bmdwq8/504HnonWyzSkFYP0oyokJ4A== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.197 X-Listbox-UUID: A3CA7F36-98C7-11DE-9BAE-944ABA7BDD05 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <6EE58DF6-B223-4D26-B5E5-6044F8096A53@farber.net> <571ebf600909031219r16a34f0boccffe7d23d4ef907@mail.gmail.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 In my experience Apples ME mail has been much worse djf On Sep 3, 2009, at 3:19 PM, Henrik B wrote: Dave, For IP if you wish I saw several people complaining loudly about this when the outage happened. I went back to Google's status page and looked back. This is the only large scale outage of GMail since beginning of July. There were one or two minor incidents with limited number of people affected. The 2.5 hours that the application was down means that in the last 2 months GMail has a general availability of 99.83%. Since the last time I remember having any problem lasting more than a few minutes was back in March (I think), my availability is probably in the four nines region (99.99%). For something that I only pay for with some unintrusive advertising (and probably some nice profiling) I'd say that is pretty good. For people who think that it's an outrage that it happens, I would suggest to find a redundant colocation facility, install their own redundant servers and hire the staff necessary to manage it 24/7. Compared to that GMail truly is a bargain. Henrik Brameus On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 4:33 PM, David Farber wrote: > > > Begin forwarded message: > From: "Jonathan B Spira" > Date: September 2, 2009 4:33:11 PM EDT > To: David Farber > Subject: Putting All of Our E-mail Eggs in One Basket: Gmail Down > Once again > > > Dave > -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Sep 4 08:36:56 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPG00N015P0UH@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:36:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPG00N015OXU5@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:36:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPF00O010K0SL@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 17:48:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KPF00O3A0K08Z@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 17:48:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA67D472F9 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 17:51:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.38]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92FE0472F1 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 17:51:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F91248CF2 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 17:51:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0A4D440FF for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 17:50:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78413440FE for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 17:50:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n83Lo1km002875 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 17:50:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 17:50:01 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Cloud Computing is going to make Broadband and Neutrality even more important for the Internet To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <117E2565-BE00-48D2-AC77-FB0B502558E0@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1075.2) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1075.2) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_MQY3AtmMjGvDQYCBihXpXQ)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:subject:date:references:to:message-id:mime-version :reply-to:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s= launch; bh=op+ArhDkEJvuOLdq0LmjXIIn7K8=; b=WxAasVpX//zkbMTaiEs4+ z7lw7ElyLfX2hfsuQCcLtHdLn+Vpk1fqnCu7qujVhMFaWGKF+B2uZ1y0K+ndjoZK g== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: BDB8F934-98D3-11DE-872A-1927BA7BDD05 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <001601ca2cd5$035f8bd0$0a1ea370$@com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_MQY3AtmMjGvDQYCBihXpXQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Begin forwarded message: =46rom: "Amy Wohl" Date: September 3, 2009 4:27:52 PM EDT To: Subject: Cloud Computing is going to make Broadband and Neutrality = =20 even more important for the Internet Dear Dave, I can=92t contribute to the technical discussion of requirements for = the =20 Internet but I would like to introduce a notion of changing function = =20 into the discussion =96 which I believe makes adequate broadband = =20 standards and net neutrality even more important. We are in the midst of a revolution in architecture. At some point i= n =20 the near future =96 five or ten years from now =96 we are going to fi= nd =20 that a very large portion of computing usage =96 perhaps as high as 3= 0 =20 to 50% - moving from desktops, servers, and large computers at user = =20 organizations to shared farms of servers and larger computers =93in t= he =20 cloud.=94 This is going to make the usage volume of the Internet = =20 increase remarkably and because we cannot predict exactly what users = =20 (consumers) and user organizations (businesses) will choose to do, = =20 network neutrality, permitting them to do nearly anything, becomes = =20 much more important. This is not an argument to change the net to provide for specific = =20 applications (which we can=92t predict anyway), but rather to preserv= e =20 the ability to continue to use the net for whatever new applications = =20 we might imagine, in an environment with sufficient bandwidth to mak= e =20 that both possible and reasonable. Amy Wohl Amy D. Wohl Editor, Amy Wohl's Opinions 40 Old Lancaster Road, #608 Merion, Station, PA 19066 610-667-4842 amy@wohl.com www.wohl.com ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_MQY3AtmMjGvDQYCBihXpXQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

Begin forwarded message:

From: "Amy Wohl" <amy@wohl.com>
Su= bject: Cloud Computing is going to make Broadband and Neutrality = even more important for the Internet

=
Dear Dave,
 
I can=92t contribute to the technical di= scussion of requirements for the Internet but I would like to introdu= ce a notion of changing function into the discussion =96 which I beli= eve makes adequate broadband standards and net neutrality even more i= mportant. 
 
 = ;
This is not an argument to change the net to pro= vide for specific applications (which we can=92t predict anyway), but= rather to preserve the ability to continue to use the net for whatev= er new applications we might imagine,  in an environment with su= fficient bandwidth to make that both possible and reasonable.
 
Amy Wohl
 
Amy D. Wohl
Editor, Amy Wohl's Opinions
40 Old = Lancaster Road, #608
Merion, Station, PA 1906= 6
610-667-4842
amy@wohl.com
 
--Boundary_(ID_MQY3AtmMjGvDQYCBihXpXQ)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Sep 4 08:36:57 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPG00N015P0UH@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:36:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPG00N015OXU5@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:36:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPF00O010PQZ6@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 17:51:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.83]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KPF00O4R0PP8Z@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 17:51:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A50445121 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 17:55:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.87]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 581FE4511E for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 17:55:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 321D947612 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 17:55:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A58D9417F6 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 17:49:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75AED417F5 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 17:49:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.8] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n83Ln0AR002852 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 17:49:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 17:49:00 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: Decline in Grad school admissions To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1075.2) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1075.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=8WBkZ6FheznrQK+w1 k2zTX/jeC4=; b=T/eEt0Puq6I+2PMSCtmIXz3u0rO8XZw2rhJS/kHXvDRN7NdU9 sRHs7mU5PxelQBQcc9ZISePpEWsT7ISTbmaYg== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 98165A3C-98D3-11DE-BE09-5D1812F6C9C8 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Stephen Unger Date: September 3, 2009 5:21:04 PM EDT To: David Farber Cc: ip Subject: Re: [IP] Re: Decline in Grad school admissions Mr. Diwan evidently did not read my post very carefully. I clearly did NOT "scapegoat" immigrants, pointing out, in the paragraph below--which Mr. Diwan deleted--that the fault lies, not with the H-1Bs, but with the corporations that hire them. The villains here are not the people who come here as H-1Bs. In fact, it is not uncommon for a former H-1B (who ultimately received a green card) to be displaced by a new H-1B. Rather, the damage is being done by corporations who care nothing for the well being of Americans as they ruthlessly cut payroll costs. Any particular company can claim that it is only responding to competitive pressure. But this does not excuse the fact that industry in general, and many corporation executives, vigorously oppose all efforts to protect US industry and workers with legislation that would combat competition from abroad based on low pay and environmental abuse. Furthermore, Mr. Diwan does not come from a low-pay country and so I would not include him in the category I was treating. His statements about the dire straits we would be in if not for the hiring of engineers from India and China is not valid. If there is such a terrible shortfall of engineers, why are so many well educated, capable, experienced American engineers unable to find employment in their own country? (And it is not "scores", but rather hundreds of thousands in this plight.) The classic indication of a shortage of people in any field is a sharp increase in remuneration offered for people in that field. This has clearly NOT happened for engineers, so it is obvious that the "shortage" is of people willing to work for longer hours for less compensation. Steve ............ Stephen H. Unger Professor Emeritus Computer Science and Electrical Engineering Columbia University ............ On Thu, 3 Sep 2009, David Farber wrote: > > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Hasan Diwan > Date: September 3, 2009 3:38:24 PM EDT > To: dave@farber.net > Subject: Re: [IP] Re: Decline in Grad school admissions > > Dr Farber: > As a recipient of an H1B myself, I am personally offended by Professor > Unger's missive. I am from the United Kingdom (born and raised). One > can say that employment does not measure "intelligence" completely, > and yes, I agree with the assertion, but it does provide a subset of a > metric to judge intelligence. The process of sponsorship is not > straightforward, nor is it cheap. In my region of the country > (northern California), my income is on the higher end of the salary > scale. > > With regards to the scores of engineers who have lost their jobs, I > apologise to the lot of you. But, scapegoating immigrants is not the > answer to your problems. If you expel us, the economy will still need > people with special skills. The specific skills may change (right now, > it appears nursing/healthcare/education), but the economy will still > need the skills. > > Regarding the field I'm most familiar with, China and India produce > more engineers every year than the entire population of the United > States. The United States needs more engineers than it can produce > (even if EVERY high school student were to do electrical > engineering/computer science/chemical engineering/etc., you still > won't be able to satisfy demand). China and India have more engineers > than their societies can provide jobs for, so they set out on the > seven seas, land in places like Australia, the United States, and > Europe and work there. > > Finding a job is a zero-sum game, but that's only once one has a > number of qualified candidates. The reason we import engineers is > because the company cannot find qualified people here. The process of > obtaining an H1B is neither trivial nor cheap. Perhaps Professor Unger > ought to try obtaining a work visa before he rails against those of us > with one? > > 2009/9/3 David Farber : >> Begin forwarded message: >> From: Stephen Unger >> Date: September 3, 2009 2:29:02 PM EDT >> To: David Farber >> Cc: ip >> Subject: Re: [IP] Decline in Grad school admissions >> Industry people have been crying "shortage" for well over a decade. >> At >> NO time was this cry justified. Large numbers of competent, well >> educated engineers, programmers, and related professionals have had >> their careers terminated by the squeeze comprised of the import of >> H-1Bs, primarily from low-pay countries, and the export of jobs to >> the >> same countries. The problem is particularly acute now that we are >> in a >> slump and engineers are being laid off. >> The H-1B program is not about bringing the brightest minds to our >> country. Very few H-1Bs are particularly bright. There are other visa >> programs that facilitate immigration of exceptional people. Many US >> engineers are required to train their H-1B replacements as a >> condition >> for receiving severance pay. > > -- > Sent from my mobile device > Envoyait de mon telephone mobil > > > > > ------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Sep 4 08:36:58 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPG00N015P0UH@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:36:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPG00N015OXU5@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:36:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPF005014G1IR@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 19:12:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KPF002UG4G01E@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 19:12:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91A2745C1A for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 19:15:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86F9F45C16 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 19:15:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E6C646F87 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 19:15:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88821437D4 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 19:09:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail-yx0-f186.google.com (mail-yx0-f186.google.com [209.85.210.186]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79B98437D2 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 19:09:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by yxe16 with SMTP id 16so1738418yxe.4 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:09:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.56.11 with SMTP id i11mr11725294ank.5.1252019325246; Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:08:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?10.0.1.7? ([67.165.107.113]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d21sm1204and.14.2009.09.03.16.08.43 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 19:07:43 -0400 From: Dave Farber Subject: [IP] Decline in Grad school admissions To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <043EA074-A690-4338-A26D-5103F53193FF@me.com> MIME-version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7A400) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7A400) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_NG4veE0w+NOdRG82d8ZaMQ)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=message-id :from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:date:references:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=BkSlDpHeDIuHkpq/c bnLPuBYI/o=; b=dYsvCl5KlToW9RIbk/MfdXsjKoPavkIHV6DNHX/ejqyHIURHE N9bb5uVnoA4fOZyGoXAjgmlYjqRqC4iURtdHw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:mime-version :subject:date:references; bh=9Um2QQGu5wnGjPNqYsXsdl1o/0BTjJjCG/dN6EPSRSM=; b=HCmUjz/zFLBg8k9T6a/kyxHoud1OV1IoUQebOo6QQafBXoD+oACSemdVqtJcsh7zJF j6lFMFSsyoppOuUUXoAYCPxCC7xZo9+vqrEdRmto7YLJPFpq7V6HlXi6VlKpV2Z9GGtg 469OVm/P5D9oe6KVJP6El5cPd+GnOHkmOiCCA= X-Listbox-UUID: D9BBB5D0-98DE-11DE-8F3F-F34BE991E997 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <829E0425A1FF734EA68E72AA51284A700B87A8FDA4@exchsrv1> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :x-mailer:mime-version:subject:date:references; b=FT8vAC25QNSyRgRhjogd7FVJ38/tp82/0yRsMtGfQLeYRrx7bMQAhQ8YPJFpSxfKnF 9woJoer6zTFAVNZOi+1ZT5r9RaclJSFTao2NXKdlroHsAEqRv80RYGEPC7IKj3gN//MW YU5w47nCKxyS1669h72DFMaVLcimFuV6FPz5s= --Boundary_(ID_NG4veE0w+NOdRG82d8ZaMQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Begin forwarded message: > From: Ed Lazowska > Date: September 3, 2009 18:38:40 EDT > To: "'dave@farber.net'" > Cc: Ed Lazowska > Subject: RE: [IP] Re: Decline in Grad school admissions > > Well, y'know, the truth is somewhere in between. > > First of all, there's "the myth of the interchangeable engineer." I > remember a jingoistic front-page Seattle Times article 10 or 15 > years ago, during one of the never-ending sequence of Boeing > downsizings, castigating Microsoft for hiring a very modest number > of H-1B workers when there were red-blooded American aerospace > engineers and machinists out of work. > > On the flip side, economists argue that there is no such thing as "a > workforce shortage" -- there is only "a workforce shortage at a > particular prevailing wage." The situation is complicated by the > fact that there's a lot of delay in the system: you don't produce a > top-quality engineer in a week, or a month, or a year, or even a > decade. If, 15 years ago, entry-level engineers and computer > scientists had been paid what entry-level lawyers and financiers > were getting paid, then it's reasonable to guess that today, 15 > years later, we would have lots more entry-level engineers and > computer scientists. So, if the question is "Do US companies > offshore and hire H-1B's because of the need for talent, or because > of the cost of talent?" the answer is "yes." > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Farber [mailto:dave@farber.net] > Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 1:22 PM > To: ip > Subject: [IP] Re: Decline in Grad school admissions > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Hasan Diwan > Date: September 3, 2009 3:38:24 PM EDT > To: dave@farber.net > Subject: Re: [IP] Re: Decline in Grad school admissions > > Dr Farber: > As a recipient of an H1B myself, I am personally offended by Professor > Unger's missive. I am from the United Kingdom (born and raised). One > can say that employment does not measure "intelligence" completely, > and yes, I agree with the assertion, but it does provide a subset of a > metric to judge intelligence. The process of sponsorship is not > straightforward, nor is it cheap. In my region of the country > (northern California), my income is on the higher end of the salary > scale. > > With regards to the scores of engineers who have lost their jobs, I > apologise to the lot of you. But, scapegoating immigrants is not the > answer to your problems. If you expel us, the economy will still need > people with special skills. The specific skills may change (right now, > it appears nursing/healthcare/education), but the economy will still > need the skills. > > Regarding the field I'm most familiar with, China and India produce > more engineers every year than the entire population of the United > States. The United States needs more engineers than it can produce > (even if EVERY high school student were to do electrical > engineering/computer science/chemical engineering/etc., you still > won't be able to satisfy demand). China and India have more engineers > than their societies can provide jobs for, so they set out on the > seven seas, land in places like Australia, the United States, and > Europe and work there. > > Finding a job is a zero-sum game, but that's only once one has a > number of qualified candidates. The reason we import engineers is > because the company cannot find qualified people here. The process of > obtaining an H1B is neither trivial nor cheap. Perhaps Professor Unger > ought to try obtaining a work visa before he rails against those of us > with one? > > 2009/9/3 David Farber : >> >> >> Begin forwarded message: >> >> From: Stephen Unger >> Date: September 3, 2009 2:29:02 PM EDT >> To: David Farber >> Cc: ip >> Subject: Re: [IP] Decline in Grad school admissions >> >> Industry people have been crying "shortage" for well over a decade. >> At >> NO time was this cry justified. Large numbers of competent, well >> educated engineers, programmers, and related professionals have had >> their careers terminated by the squeeze comprised of the import of >> H-1Bs, primarily from low-pay countries, and the export of jobs to >> the >> same countries. The problem is particularly acute now that we are >> in a >> slump and engineers are being laid off. >> The H-1B program is not about bringing the brightest minds to our >> country. Very few H-1Bs are particularly bright. There are other visa >> programs that facilitate immigration of exceptional people. Many US >> engineers are required to train their H-1B replacements as a >> condition >> for receiving severance pay. > > -- > Sent from my mobile device > Envoyait de mon telephone mobil > > > > > ------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_NG4veE0w+NOdRG82d8ZaMQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE




Begin= forwarded message:

Fr= om: Ed Lazowska <lazowska@cs.washington.edu>
Date: September 3, 2009= 18:38:40 EDT
To: "'dav= e@farber.net'" <dave@farber= .net>
Cc: Ed Lazowska <lazowska@cs.washington.edu>
Subject:= RE: [IP] Re:  Decline in Grad school admissions
=
Well, y'know, the truth is somewhere in between.

First of all, there's "the myth of the interchangeable= engineer."  I remember a jingoistic front-page Seattle Times ar= ticle 10 or 15 years ago, during one of the never-ending sequence of = Boeing downsizings, castigating Microsoft for hiring a very modest nu= mber of H-1B workers when there were red-blooded American aerospace e= ngineers and machinists out of work.

On the flip side, economists argue that there is no such thing as "a= workforce shortage" -- there is only "a workforce shortage at a part= icular prevailing wage."  The situation is complicated by the fa= ct that there's a lot of delay in the system:  you don't produce= a top-quality engineer in a week, or a month, or a year, or even a d= ecade.  If, 15 years ago, entry-level engineers and computer sci= entists had been paid what entry-level lawyers and financiers were ge= tting paid, then it's reasonable to guess that today, 15 years later,= we would have lots more entry-level engineers and computer scientist= s.  So, if the question is "Do US companies offshore and hire H-= 1B's because of the need for talent, or because of the cost of talent= ?" the answer is "yes."

-----Origina= l Message-----
From: David Farber [mailto:dave@farber= .net]
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 1:22 PM
To: ip
Subject: [IP] Re: Decline in Grad= school admissions


=
Begin forwarded message:

= From: Hasan Diwan <= hasan.diwan@gmail.com>
Date: September 3, 2009= 3:38:24 PM EDT
To: dave@farber.netSubject: Re: [IP] Re: Decline in Grad school admissions

Dr Farber:
As a recipient= of an H1B myself, I am personally offended by Professor
Unger's missive. I am from the United Kingdom (born and raised). = One
can say that employment does not measure "intelli= gence" completely,
and yes, I agree with the assertio= n, but it does provide a subset of a
metric to judge = intelligence. The process of sponsorship is not
strai= ghtforward, nor is it cheap. In my region of the country
(northern California), my income is on the higher end of the sala= ry
scale.

With regar= ds to the scores of engineers who have lost their jobs, I
<= span>apologise to the lot of you. But, scapegoating immigrants is not= the
answer to your problems. If you expel us, the ec= onomy will still need
people with special skills. The= specific skills may change (right now,
it appears nu= rsing/healthcare/education), but the economy will still
need the skills.

Regarding the fi= eld I'm most familiar with, China and India produce
m= ore engineers every year than the entire population of the United
States. The United States needs more engineers than it c= an produce
(even if EVERY high school student were to= do electrical
engineering/computer science/chemical = engineering/etc., you still
won't be able to satisfy = demand). China and India have more engineers
than the= ir societies can provide jobs for, so they set out on the
<= span>seven seas, land in places like Australia, the United States, an= d
Europe and work there.

<= span>Finding a job is a zero-sum game, but that's only once one has a=
number of qualified candidates. The reason we import= engineers is
because the company cannot find qualifi= ed people here. The process of
obtaining an H1B is ne= ither trivial nor cheap. Perhaps Professor Unger
ough= t to try obtaining a work visa before he rails against those of us
with one?

2009/9/3 Dav= id Farber <dave@farber.net&= gt;:


Begin forwarded message:
=

From: Stephen Unger <unger@cs.columbia.edu>
<= blockquote type=3D"cite">Date: September 3, 2009 2:29:02 PM EDT=
To: David Far= ber <dave@farber.net>
Cc: ip <ip@v2.listbox.com>
<= /blockquote>
Subject: Re: [IP] Decline= in Grad school admissions

Industry people have been crying "shortage" for well over a decade= . At
NO time w= as this cry justified. Large numbers of competent, well
educated engineers, program= mers, and related professionals have had
their careers terminated by the squeeze co= mprised of the import of
H-1Bs, primarily from low-pay countries, and the export of= jobs to the
s= ame countries. The problem is particularly acute now that we are in a=
slump and eng= ineers are being laid off.
The H-1B program is not about bringing the brightest = minds to our
c= ountry. Very few H-1Bs are particularly bright. There are other visa<= /span>
programs that = facilitate immigration of exceptional people. Many US
engineers are required to tra= in their H-1B replacements as a condition
for receiving severance pay.

--
Sent from my mo= bile device
Envoyait de mon telephone mobil



= -------------------------------------------
Arc= by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
<= br>
--Boundary_(ID_NG4veE0w+NOdRG82d8ZaMQ)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Sat Sep 5 14:21:37 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPI00501GBVYD@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Sat, 05 Sep 2009 14:21:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPI00501GBPU3@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Sat, 05 Sep 2009 14:21:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPG000016LLX0@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:56:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KPG0001U6LLUG@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:56:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC27E483EF for ; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:59:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D02A4483E0 for ; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:59:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3F8549C48 for ; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:59:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0B1942F2E for ; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:58:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D9F042F28 for ; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:58:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.5] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n84Cw2Km007439 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:58:02 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:58:02 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] FCC Meeting and Cloud Computing To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <02C49490-EB47-4A74-BA82-4DA7925B2D36@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1075.2) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1075.2) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_9gUfMDXa7QLDjUqs1uhxww)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:subject:date:references:to:message-id:mime-version :reply-to:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s= launch; bh=hUR1kO4PK26EMHo8sQE1Eeazsj8=; b=C5S2OS6pHGuy0kgxxuPxZ fIMN7CsCTznR9uH8hK8zPlZ+2l4KH1dv9YXPkINnYqzMv6VM79smn6USdVAmGmIZ A== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 95ABA688-9952-11DE-9355-ADD711F6C9C8 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_9gUfMDXa7QLDjUqs1uhxww) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Begin forwarded message: From: Newmedia@aol.com Date: September 4, 2009 7:16:09 AM EDT To: dave@farber.net Subject: Re: [IP] Cloud Computing is going to make Broadband and Neutrality even more ... Dave: Amy's points are dead right and, unfortunately, seem to be largely missing from the current Broadband "dialogue." Yesterday's FCC workshops were, while interesting and deserving of a summary on this list, woefully *ignorant* of the realities of the future net, IMHO. ALL of the key companies in the ICT industry -- IBM, Microsoft, Intel, Google, HP, Cisco, you-name-it -- have the SAME strategic view about the shift to the Cloud. Just ask them. They will build the Future Internet. Consumers are already there, of course, with Google's 10 million-core infrastructure and with many enterprises starting to test-bed private clouds, corporate computing will move there in the 5-10 year timeframe Amy cites. Someone needs to put this INEVITABILITY in front of the FCC etal. Getting researchers together from MIT, Berkeley, PARC, CableLabs, etc. to discuss the Future Internet "Big Picture" produced predictable results -- the Feds should give the researchers more money. If all you have is a lab then everything looks like a research grant, to paraphrase the old hammer/nail analogy. Dan Weitzner actually asked "where the innovation will come from?" and got no answer. Duh!! The innovation (i.e. actually turning inventions into large-scale viable businesses) will come from the major players in the ICT industry. In the end, no one has the capital or the incentive -- so no one else matters. My most important takeaway from listening yesterday is that this Broadband policy exercize is a mess. A royal political mess. Can't wait for the State of the Union! The primary reason why US broadband "penetration" is under 70% is because 20%+ of the US population don't use computers -- which is not something Washington can solve. Why not? They don't need You-Tube to watch video and don't need email to communicate. Cable/Sat TV and cell-phones do that just fine. And, everyone who wants television and to talk to mom has figured out how to afford them. The issue with broadband is not cost. It can't be solved with a Universal Broadband Fund. It's about practical functionality. Services delivered. Period. When our next generation healthcare and banking SERVICES are in the Cloud (i.e. to two largest components of the US service economy -- not entertainment), then everyone will have to use a computer and will need a broadband connection. Maybe we need a Broadband Town Hall Meeting . . . or a T1-Party? Mark Stahlman New York City ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_9gUfMDXa7QLDjUqs1uhxww) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

<= div>Begin forwarded message:

Date: September 4, 2009 7:16:09 AM EDT
Subject: Re: [IP] Cloud Computing is going to= make Broadband and Neutrality even more ...

Dave:
 
Amy's points are dead right and, unfortunately, seem to be large= ly missing=20 =66rom the current Broadband "dialogue."
 
Yesterday's FCC workshops were, while interesting and deserving = of a=20 summary on this list, woefully *ignorant* of the realities of the fut= ure net,=20 IMHO.
 
ALL of the key companies in the ICT industry -- IBM, Microsoft, = Intel,=20 Google, HP, Cisco, you-name-it -- have the SAME strategic view about = the shift=20 to the Cloud.  Just ask them.  They will build the Fut= ure=20 Internet.
 
Consumers are already there, of course, with Google's 10 million= -core=20 infrastructure and with many enterprises starting to test-bed private= clouds,=20 corporate computing will move there in the 5-10 year timeframe Amy ci= tes.
 
Someone needs to put this INEVITABILITY in front of the FCC etal= .
 
Getting researchers together from MIT, Berkeley, PARC, CableLabs= , etc. to=20 discuss the Future Internet "Big Picture" produced predictable result= s -- the=20 Feds should give the researchers more money.  If all you have is= a lab then=20 everything looks like a research grant, to paraphrase the old hammer/= nail=20 analogy.
 
Dan Weitzner actually asked "where the innovation will come from= ?" and got=20 no answer.  Duh!!  The innovation (i.e. actually turning in= ventions=20 into large-scale viable businesses) will come from the major players = in the ICT=20 industry.  In the end, no one has the capital or the incentive -= - so no one=20 else matters.
 
My most important takeaway from listening yesterday is that this= Broadband=20 policy exercize is a mess.  A royal political mess.  Can't = wait for=20 the State of the Union!
 
The primary reason why US broadband "penetration" is under 70% i= s because=20 20%+ of the US population don't use computers -- which is not somethi= ng=20 Washington can solve.  Why not?  They don't need You-Tube t= o watch=20 video and don't need email to communicate.  Cable/Sat TV and cel= l-phones do=20 that just fine.  And, everyone who wants television and to talk = to mom has=20 figured out how to afford them.
 
The issue with broadband is not cost.  It ca= n't be=20 solved with a Universal Broadband Fund.  It's about practical= =20 functionality.  Services delivered.  Period.
 
When our next generation healthcare and banking SERVICES ar= e in=20 the Cloud (i.e. to two largest components of the US service economy -= - not=20 entertainment), then everyone will have to use a computer and will ne= ed a=20 broadband connection. 
 
Maybe we need a Broadband Town Hall Meeting . . . or a T1-Party?= =20 <g>
 
Mark Stahlman
New York City 
 
 


--Boundary_(ID_9gUfMDXa7QLDjUqs1uhxww)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Sat Sep 5 14:21:38 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPI00501GBVYD@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Sat, 05 Sep 2009 14:21:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPI00501GBPU3@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Sat, 05 Sep 2009 14:21:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPG000016MLYN@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:56:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KPG000296MLUG@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:56:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B715C48F0C for ; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 09:00:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.38]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4BC248F07 for ; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 09:00:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B14EC49209 for ; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 09:00:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DB2442F46 for ; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:58:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8802E42F43 for ; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:58:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.0.1.5] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id n84Cw2Ko007439 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:58:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:58:47 -0400 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Decline in Grad school admissions To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <18B73C7B-11E1-49C2-B175-E53EB46C7DEC@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1075.2) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1075.2) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=6n+W4DtB5QVKmAV1q sZjho7QdiE=; b=YtjLqIXVrZmi5yB37OT+Gcp5E9WOpcbPgxg60GYhgtt0j5HYB mi9hr7dB0Q5XBJQoyP8grhDrjqTagsqvdD42w== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: B0D4039C-9952-11DE-BC0B-1FE911F6C9C8 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <829E0425A1FF734EA68E72AA51284A700B87A8FDA4@exchsrv1> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Ed Lazowska Date: September 3, 2009 6:38:40 PM EDT To: "'dave@farber.net'" Cc: Ed Lazowska Subject: RE: [IP] Re: Decline in Grad school admissions Well, y'know, the truth is somewhere in between. First of all, there's "the myth of the interchangeable engineer." I remember a jingoistic front-page Seattle Times article 10 or 15 years ago, during one of the never-ending sequence of Boeing downsizings, castigating Microsoft for hiring a very modest number of H-1B workers when there were red-blooded American aerospace engineers and machinists out of work. On the flip side, economists argue that there is no such thing as "a workforce shortage" -- there is only "a workforce shortage at a particular prevailing wage." The situation is complicated by the fact that there's a lot of delay in the system: you don't produce a top- quality engineer in a week, or a month, or a year, or even a decade. If, 15 years ago, entry-level engineers and computer scientists had been paid what entry-level lawyers and financiers were getting paid, then it's reasonable to guess that today, 15 years later, we would have lots more entry-level engineers and computer scientists. So, if the question is "Do US companies offshore and hire H-1B's because of the need for talent, or because of the cost of talent?" the answer is "yes." -----Original Message----- From: David Farber [mailto:dave@farber.net] Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 1:22 PM To: ip Subject: [IP] Re: Decline in Grad school admissions Begin forwarded message: From: Hasan Diwan Date: September 3, 2009 3:38:24 PM EDT To: dave@farber.net Subject: Re: [IP] Re: Decline in Grad school admissions Dr Farber: As a recipient of an H1B myself, I am personally offended by Professor Unger's missive. I am from the United Kingdom (born and raised). One can say that employment does not measure "intelligence" completely, and yes, I agree with the assertion, but it does provide a subset of a metric to judge intelligence. The process of sponsorship is not straightforward, nor is it cheap. In my region of the country (northern California), my income is on the higher end of the salary scale. With regards to the scores of engineers who have lost their jobs, I apologise to the lot of you. But, scapegoating immigrants is not the answer to your problems. If you expel us, the economy will still need people with special skills. The specific skills may change (right now, it appears nursing/healthcare/education), but the economy will still need the skills. Regarding the field I'm most familiar with, China and India produce more engineers every year than the entire population of the United States. The United States needs more engineers than it can produce (even if EVERY high school student were to do electrical engineering/computer science/chemical engineering/etc., you still won't be able to satisfy demand). China and India have more engineers than their societies can provide jobs for, so they set out on the seven seas, land in places like Australia, the United States, and Europe and work there. Finding a job is a zero-sum game, but that's only once one has a number of qualified candidates. The reason we import engineers is because the company cannot find qualified people here. The process of obtaining an H1B is neither trivial nor cheap. Perhaps Professor Unger ought to try obtaining a work visa before he rails against those of us with one? 2009/9/3 David Farber : > > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Stephen Unger > Date: September 3, 2009 2:29:02 PM EDT > To: David Farber > Cc: ip > Subject: Re: [IP] Decline in Grad school admissions > > Industry people have been crying "shortage" for well over a decade. At > NO time was this cry justified. Large numbers of competent, well > educated engineers, programmers, and related professionals have had > their careers terminated by the squeeze comprised of the import of > H-1Bs, primarily from low-pay countries, and the export of jobs to the > same countries. The problem is particularly acute now that we are in a > slump and engineers are being laid off. > The H-1B program is not about bringing the brightest minds to our > country. Very few H-1Bs are particularly bright. There are other visa > programs that facilitate immigration of exceptional people. Many US > engineers are required to train their H-1B replacements as a condition > for receiving severance pay. -- Sent from my mobile device Envoyait de mon telephone mobil ------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Sat Sep 5 14:21:39 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPI00501GBVYD@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Sat, 05 Sep 2009 14:21:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPI00501GBPU3@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Sat, 05 Sep 2009 14:21:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) id <0KPG005018QPAG@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 09:42:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31546) with ESMTP id <0KPG002NB8QPHG@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 09:42:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72DCD485BD for ; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 09:46:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71637485BC for ; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 09:46:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E73548210 for ; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 09:46:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A3FC440FA for ; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 09:44:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com (qw-out-2122.google.com [74.125.92.26]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65AF5440F9 for ; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 09:44:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 5so247038qwi.27 for ; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 06:44:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.53.101 with SMTP id l37mr5659796qag.367.1252071874388; Fri, 04 Sep 2009 06:44:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?10.0.1.7? 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