From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Mon Nov 2 07:15:17 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSH00001E1EBH@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:15:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSH00001E1AB8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:15:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSF00101NIOOY@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 08:44:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.83]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSF00PB0NIO5D@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 08:44:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 442CD94E9B for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 08:46:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.87]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 410D794E9A for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 08:46:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DCB895FC7 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 08:46:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F1DB88D2B for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 08:41:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP02.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.197]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DDDA88D2A for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 08:41:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.9] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id nA1DfVvP004238 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 08:41:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2009 08:41:31 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] "Secure" Computers aren't To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1076) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1076) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_1G+5uEZ4bs6Pqd5DdUOFag)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:subject:date:references:to:message-id:mime-version :reply-to:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s= launch; bh=58AmtZn/9NuJBNps6moBI3jMnEI=; b=lGmY80ACTL0gm0OWLn6Zw f0PEjpXSlZwVDjP7sQU5rwTqV1XAqFf1m/o4+ZUIGahI1vA7oCdB14qyRuhJPmin w== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.197 X-Listbox-UUID: 45BF7DF8-C6EC-11DE-AECD-B56B782687C1 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_1G+5uEZ4bs6Pqd5DdUOFag) Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Begin forwarded message: =46rom: Randall Webmail Date: October 31, 2009 3:21:40 PM EDT To: dewayne@warpspeed.com, dave@farber.net Subject: "Secure" Computers aren't http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2009/cryptography.html Secure computers aren=92t so secure Even well-defended computers can leak shocking amounts of private = =20 data. MIT researchers seek out exotic attacks in order to shut them down Larry Hardesty, MIT News Office October 30, 2009 You may update your antivirus software religiously, immediately =20 download all new Windows security patches, and refuse to click any e-mail links = =20 ostensibly sent by your bank, but even if your computer is running exactly the = =20 way it=92s supposed to, a motivated attacker can still glean a shocking amount o= f private information from it. The time it takes to store data in memor= y, fluctuations in power consumption, even the sounds your computer make= s =20 can betray its secrets. MIT researchers centered at the Computer Science = and Artificial Intelligence Lab=92s Cryptography and Information Security= =20 Group (CIS) study such subtle security holes and how to close them. In 2005, Eran Tromer, now a postdoc at CIS, and colleagues at the = =20 Weizmann Institute in Rehovot, Israel, showed that without any breach of =20 security in the ordinary sense, a seemingly harmless computer program could =20 eavesdrop on other programs and steal the type of secret cryptographic key used by= =20 one of the most common Internet encryption schemes. Armed with the key, an = =20 attacker could steal a computer user=92s credit card number, bank account = =20 password =97 whatever the encryption scheme was invoked to protect. Computer operating systems are supposed to prevent any given program = =20 =66rom looking at the data stored by another. But when two programs are = =20 running at the same time, they sometimes end up sharing the same cache =97 a sma= ll allotment of high-speed memory where the operating system stores = =20 frequently used information. Tromer and his colleagues showed that simply by = =20 measuring how long it took to store data at a number of different cache =20 locations, a malicious program could determine how frequently a cryptographic = =20 system was using those same locations. =93The memory access patterns =97 that is= , which memory addresses are accessed =97 are heavily influenced by the speci= fic =20 secret key being used in that operation,=94 Tromer says. =93We demonstrated = a =20 concise and efficient procedure for learning the secret keys given just this = =20 crude information about the memory access patterns.=94 Complete extraction = of =20 the private key, Tromer says, =93takes merely seconds, and the measuremen= ts =20 that are needed, of the actual cryptographic process being attacked, can b= e carried out in milliseconds.=94 The encryption system that Tromer was attacking, called AES, was = =20 particularly vulnerable because it used tables of precalculated values as a =20 computational short cut, so that encoding and decoding messages wouldn=92t be =20 prohibitively time consuming. Since Tromer and his colleagues published their resul= ts, Intel has added hardware support for AES to its chips, so that Intern= et encryption software won=92t have to rely on such =93lookup tables.= =94 In a statement, Intel told the MIT News Office that its decision = =93was =20 mainly motivated by the performance/efficiency benefits achieved,=94 but tha= t =93in addition, there is a potential security benefit since these new =20 instructions can mitigate the possibility of software side channel attacks on AES = =20 that have been described in research papers, including those discovered by= =20 Tromer, Percival, and Bernstein.=94 =93I think it=92s fair to say that it=92s a direct response to the ca= che-=20 timing attacks against AES,=94 Pankaj Rohatgi, director of hardware security= at =20 the data security firm Cryptography Research, says of Intel=92s move. Together with CIS cofounder Ron Rivest and CSAIL=92s Saman Amarasingh= e, =20 Tromer is trying to develop further techniques for thwarting cache attacks b= y disrupting the correlations between encryption keys and memory access patterns. A couple weeks ago, at the Association for Computing =20 Machinery=92s Symposium on Operating Systems Principles, the researchers announced = =20 that they had a =93proof-of-concept prototype=94 of a defense system, but = they =20 plan to continue testing and refining it before publishing any papers. Tromer has also been investigating whether cloud computing =97 the subcontracting of computational tasks to networked servers maintained= by companies like Amazon and Google =97 is susceptible to cache attacks.= =20 Many web sites rely on cloud computing to handle sudden surges in their =20 popularity: renting added server space for a few hours at a time can be much = =20 cheaper than maintaining large banks of proprietary servers that frequently stand = =20 idle. The word =93cloud=94 is supposed to suggest that this vast agglomerat= ion of computing power is amorphous and constantly shifting, but Tromer and colleagues at the University of California, San Diego, were able to l= oad their eavesdropping software onto precisely the same servers that wer= e hosting websites they=92d targeted in advance. In part, their approac= h =20 involved spreading their software across a number of servers, then assailing a targeted website with traffic. By spying on the caches of the servers= =20 hosting their software, they could determine which were also trying to keep = =20 pace with their fake traffic spikes. Once they=92d identified the target site= =92s =20 servers, they could use cache monitoring to try to steal secrets. =93Imagine a stock broker that specializes in a specific company,= =94 =20 Tromer says. =93If you observe that his virtual machine is particularly active, th= at =20 could be valuable information. Or you may want to know how popular your competitors=92 website is. We=92ve actually demonstrated that we can = very robustly estimate web server popularity.=94 =93This has sparked the imagination of both the research community an= d industry,=94 Rohatgi says. =93I interact with a lot of people in indu= stry, =20 and when they say, =91Give me the technical basis for this,=92 I point to= =20 [Tromer and colleagues=92] papers.=94 Finally, Tromer is continuing work he began as a graduate student, on= =20 the use of a =93hundred-dollar commodity microphone=94 to record the very sou= nds =20 emitted by a computer and analyze them for information about cryptographic = =20 keys. So far, Tromer hasn=92t been able to demonstrate complete key extraction= , =20 but he believes he=92s getting close. Any information at all about a computer=92s internal workings =93is a= ctually fairly damaging,=94 Rohatgi says. =93In some sense, some of these = =20 cryptographic algorithms are fairly brittle, and with a little extra information, = =20 you can break them.=94 ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_1G+5uEZ4bs6Pqd5DdUOFag) Content-type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

<= div>Begin forwarded message:

From: Randall Webmail <= rvh40@insightbb.com>
Date: <= span style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">October 31,= 2009 3:21:40 PM EDT
Subject: = "Secure= " Computers aren't

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2009/cr= yptography.html

Secure computers aren=92t so secure
Even well-defended computers can leak shocking amounts of private da= ta. MIT
researchers seek out exotic attacks in order to shut them = down

Larry Hardesty, MIT News Office

October 30, 2009
You may update your antivirus software religiously, immediately= download all
new Windows security patches, and refuse to click an= y e-mail links ostensibly
sent by your bank, but even if your comp= uter is running exactly the way it=92s
supposed to, a motivated at= tacker can still glean a shocking amount of
private information fr= om it. The time it takes to store data in memory,
fluctuations in = power consumption, even the sounds your computer makes can
betray = its secrets. MIT researchers centered at the Computer Science and
= Artificial Intelligence Lab=92s Cryptography and Information Security= Group
(CIS) study such subtle security holes and how to close the= m.

In 2005, Eran Tromer, now a postdoc at CIS, and colleagues = at the Weizmann
Institute in Rehovot, Israel, showed that without = any breach of security in
the ordinary sense, a seemingly harmless= computer program could eavesdrop on
other programs and steal the = type of secret cryptographic key used by one of
the most common In= ternet encryption schemes. Armed with the key, an attacker
could s= teal a computer user=92s credit card number, bank account password = =97
whatever the encryption scheme was invoked to protect.

= Computer operating systems are supposed to prevent any given program = =66rom
looking at the data stored by another. But when two program= s are running at
the same time, they sometimes end up sharing the = same cache =97 a small
allotment of high-speed memory where the op= erating system stores frequently
used information. Tromer and his = colleagues showed that simply by measuring
how long it took to sto= re data at a number of different cache locations, a
malicious prog= ram could determine how frequently a cryptographic system was
usin= g those same locations. =93The memory access patterns =97 that is, wh= ich
memory addresses are accessed =97 are heavily influenced by th= e specific secret
key being used in that operation,=94 Tromer says= . =93We demonstrated a concise
and efficient procedure for learnin= g the secret keys given just this crude
information about the memo= ry access patterns.=94 Complete extraction of the
private key, Tro= mer says, =93takes merely seconds, and the measurements that
are n= eeded, of the actual cryptographic process being attacked, can be
= carried out in milliseconds.=94

The encryption system that Tro= mer was attacking, called AES, was particularly
vulnerable because= it used tables of precalculated values as a computational
short c= ut, so that encoding and decoding messages wouldn=92t be prohibitivel= y
time consuming. Since Tromer and his colleagues published their = results,
Intel has added hardware support for AES to its chips, so= that Internet
encryption software won=92t have to rely on such = =93lookup tables.=94

In a statement, Intel told the MIT News O= ffice that its decision =93was mainly
motivated by the performance= /efficiency benefits achieved,=94 but that =93in
addition, there i= s a potential security benefit since these new instructions
can mi= tigate the possibility of software side channel attacks on AES thathave been described in research papers, including those discovered = by Tromer,
Percival, and Bernstein.=94

=93I think it=92s fa= ir to say that it=92s a direct response to the cache-timing
attack= s against AES,=94 Pankaj Rohatgi, director of hardware security at th= e
data security firm Cryptography Research, says of Intel=92s move= .

Together with CIS cofounder Ron Rivest and CSAIL=92s Saman A= marasinghe, Tromer
is trying to develop further techniques for thw= arting cache attacks by
disrupting the correlations between encryp= tion keys and memory access
patterns. A couple weeks ago, at the A= ssociation for Computing Machinery=92s
Symposium on Operating Syst= ems Principles, the researchers announced that
they had a =93proof= -of-concept prototype=94 of a defense system, but they plan to
con= tinue testing and refining it before publishing any papers.

Tr= omer has also been investigating whether cloud computing =97 the
s= ubcontracting of computational tasks to networked servers maintained = by
companies like Amazon and Google =97 is susceptible to cache at= tacks. Many web
sites rely on cloud computing to handle sudden sur= ges in their popularity:
renting added server space for a few hour= s at a time can be much cheaper than
maintaining large banks of pr= oprietary servers that frequently stand idle.

The word =93clou= d=94 is supposed to suggest that this vast agglomeration of
comput= ing power is amorphous and constantly shifting, but Tromer and
col= leagues at the University of California, San Diego, were able to load=
their eavesdropping software onto precisely the same servers that= were
hosting websites they=92d targeted in advance. In part, thei= r approach involved
spreading their software across a number of se= rvers, then assailing a
targeted website with traffic. By spying o= n the caches of the servers hosting
their software, they could det= ermine which were also trying to keep pace with
their fake traffic= spikes. Once they=92d identified the target site=92s servers,
the= y could use cache monitoring to try to steal secrets.

=93Imagi= ne a stock broker that specializes in a specific company,=94 Tromer s= ays.
=93If you observe that his virtual machine is particularly ac= tive, that could
be valuable information. Or you may want to know = how popular your
competitors=92 website is. We=92ve actually demon= strated that we can very
robustly estimate web server popularity.= =94

=93This has sparked the imagination of both the research c= ommunity and
industry,=94 Rohatgi says. =93I interact with a lot o= f people in industry, and
when they say, =91Give me the technical = basis for this,=92 I point to [Tromer and
colleagues=92] papers.= =94

Finally, Tromer is continuing work he began as a graduate = student, on the use
of a =93hundred-dollar commodity microphone= =94 to record the very sounds emitted
by a computer and analyze th= em for information about cryptographic keys. So
far, Tromer hasn= =92t been able to demonstrate complete key extraction, but he
beli= eves he=92s getting close.

Any information at all about a comp= uter=92s internal workings =93is actually
fairly damaging,=94 Roha= tgi says. =93In some sense, some of these cryptographic
algorithms= are fairly brittle, and with a little extra information, you can
= break them.=94
--Boundary_(ID_1G+5uEZ4bs6Pqd5DdUOFag)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Mon Nov 2 07:15:18 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSH00001E1EBH@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:15:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSH00001E1AB8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:15:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSF00301O3NEV@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 08:57:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSF00PF7O3M5D@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 08:57:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF5DB95C4A for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 08:58:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADBF995C49 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 08:58:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A5BE93E8F for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 08:58:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D940D8B766 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 08:53:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP03.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.198]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 628F48B765 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 08:53:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.9] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id nA1Drk9U026034 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 08:53:46 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2009 08:53:46 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Innovation in Open Networks - Creative Commons, the Next Layer of Openness To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <5669425C-074A-4234-AFC4-5B2A8A6740F6@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1076) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1076) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_R3mwco9q4ykj4imN43sqEg)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:subject:date:references:to:message-id:mime-version :reply-to:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s= launch; bh=owoSMvrNzdHK7L3n5VW5N57M7Gs=; b=HEfx1mNhb9ddPFgV2I1dU CWpkbNiRt1r0fPJtCyVQUQZ5PU/5xwr/0JSMgXnbwRHEAwr2lU1S64pSFjnyjr8k Q== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.198 X-Listbox-UUID: FB638612-C6ED-11DE-963B-D5DF3EF5BE39 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <3E7306CD-6294-4206-8423-EFFB986AA4FB@ito.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_R3mwco9q4ykj4imN43sqEg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Begin forwarded message: From: Joichi Ito Date: October 30, 2009 1:46:08 PM EDT To: David Farber Subject: Innovation in Open Networks - Creative Commons, the Next Layer of Openness Original Tweet: My blog post: http://bit.ly/3HW8qN and @McKQuarterly version: http://bit.ly/4x2aNN of article on how @creativecommons is new stack layer Original Blog Post: Innovation in Open Networks - Creative Commons, the Next Layer of Openness A few months ago, McKinsey & Co. asked me to write an article for their online magazine What Matters. The edited article, "Creative Commons: Enabling the next level of innovation" was just posted to their site. Following is the unedited original version. -- The explosion of innovation around the Internet is driven by an ecosystem of people who work in an open network defined by open standards. However, the technical ability to connect in an increasingly seamless way has begun to highlight friction and failure in the system caused by the complicated copyright system that was originally designed to "protect" innovation. Just as open network protocols created an interoperable and frictionless network, open metadata and legal standards can solve many of the issues caused by copyright and dramatically reduce the friction and cost that it currently represents. Before Ethernet and RJ45 connectors became the standard, we connected computers together using a variety of different network technologies and connectors. It was usually physically impossible to connect computers from different companies together. Many of us will remember having Appletalk cables on our Macintoshes, which didn't connect to the network cables on our PCs. While Ethernet wasn't the "smartest" protocol around, because of its simplicity and the lack of proprietary patents encumbering its use, it became widely adopted as a standard way to connect computers together. Before TCP/IP was developed, even if the computers were able to be connected together physically and electronically, the computers couldn't really talk to each other without proprietary networking software. There were the networking protocols from computer and operating system vendors like Appletalk and Microsoft's own networking protocol. You could also buy networking equipment and software from vendors such as Banyan and Novell. I remember very clearly when I first heard about TCP/IP and I downloaded the free implementations for both my Mac and my PC and for the first time, was able to communicate between the computers and more importantly with all of the computers in the rest of the world using TCP/IP. TCP/IP enabled the creation of the Internet and ended an era of proprietary networks both locally and as services such as The Source, CompuServe and AOL in their original forms. Then Tim Berners Lee and the World Wide Web came along. Again, I remember clearly many people arguing that we didn't need the World Wide Web since we could already log into any computer on the Internet, download papers, find the citations and track down and easily download the references. Many people did not recognize, initially, the value that the interoperability and the simplicity that the World Wide Web enabled in creating documents on the Internet. As we know in hindsight, each of these open standards created an explosion of innovation. Ethernet enabled companies such as Cisco, 3Com and others to emerge and compete in an area that used to be dominated by huge vendors who built super-expensive networking systems designed by telephone companies to specifications hammered out over years in Inter-Governmental standards bodies. Similarly, TCP/IP allowed independent companies, the first ISPs to compete at providing network services to companies and individuals, breaking, often for the first time, monopolies that the telephone companies were granted by government. This introduced competition driving down the cost of moving bits around and also enabled a whole ecosystem of software components, many free and open source. Author David Weinberger would later describe this system as "small pieces loosely joined." This new network created out of small objects developed by small teams using open standards and protocols was a completely new model. In the past, organizations under the UN such as CCITT that later became the ITU worked together with governments, telephone companies and their huge research organizations to create enormously complicated standards anticipating every possible problem and building in features for the various constituents represented at in the meetings. After years of deliberation, these standards would be agreed upon and the telephone companies would contract massive projects taking years and millions of dollars to huge vendors who would develop the systems. There was no room for small pieces, small players or participation by any person or organization that wasn't well trained, organized, funded and authorized. The Internet changed all of that. The Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) had the credo, "rough consensus, running code". Anyone could participate in the discussion and in fact, much of the discussion occurred online allowing just about anyone to contribute as long as what they were saying or the code they were writing made sense. The agile method of developing standards allowed very small teams and individuals to participate both in the standards process and the development of useful tools and components of the network. It took only several years from the days when "unauthorized devices" couldn't be connected to the Internet to when just about everything important that we were using to talk to each other was written by small teams on top of lightweight standards and protocols, mainly HTML and HTTP, on top of TCP/IP. The Web and the ability for users to "view source" and copy each other's code created an explosion of innovation, content and business models such as eBay, Amazon and Wikipedia. If you try to imagine what it would have been like to create Google before we had this stack of open standards, you would probably have had to pay IBM millions of dollars to create the software on a proprietary operating system. It would have required a huge team of people taking many years. Since it was a "search engine" it most likely would have been given to the phone company to design and run. If we were using X.25, the CCITT equivalent of the Internet, we would be charged and would be charging each person for each packet of information that they sent and received from us in a network where each network operator had a bilateral agreement with each other network operator. This total project probably would have taken a decade and cost a billion dollars and would probably not even have worked properly. In fact, the total cost of actually building and launching the first Google server was probably only thousands of dollars using standard PC components, mostly open source software as the base and connecting to the Stanford University network which immediately made the service available, at no additional cost, to everyone else on the Internet. The open standards and the small pieces loosely joined had created an ecosystem of components and networks that dramatically lowered the cost of development, collaboration and delivery. This allowed people to innovate, launch, fail, connect, mashup and remix in such an efficient way and at such low cost, that the center of innovation moved from the research laboratories of the giant companies to the startup and venture capital scene in Silicon Valley. Of course, there were startups and venture capitalists before the Internet, but the influence and scale of this new engine of innovation was unprecedented. The Internet continues to disintermediate and disrupt sector after sector by lowering friction and enabling interoperability. We find businesses and whole industries having to change their models and compete with a whole new set of players ranging from individuals to companies to non-profit organizations. In most cases, this has created lower prices, more access and more choice for the users. The new industries outscale in size and global reach businesses of the past. The Internet has enabled us to technically connect and collaborate. But just as network software engineers were required to open communications between online users, we now need lawyers to sort out the copyright and content regulations between us so that we - businesses and individuals - can share, collaborate and build legally. Before the Internet, if two large companies wanted to collaborate on a project or one company wanted to license a work from another company for their territory, the deal makers would often meet in a posh hotel in Cannes sipping champagne to negotiate a price. After several rounds of golf and a few cigars, the executives would agree on the price and "my people will talk to your people" to nail down the details. Finally, the lawyers would be flown in to negotiate the contract. Often these deals were multi-million dollar deals, legal fees costing hundreds of thousands of dollars over the lifetime of the collaboration. However, the value and the cost of the actual transaction was so high that the legal fees were just absorbed into the cost. Today, the Internet enables a professor in Croatia to collaborate on courseware with a professor in Japan. However, if they are going to legally share data and copyrighted material, they need to clear the licensing systems of both universities, calling upon their mutual legal departments. Most likely, they would need to bring in outside experts to translate the legal documents and finally they would negotiate some sort of contract for the collaboration. The legal fees between these two professors would drastically exceed the technical cost and probably the value of the project, effectively making such a transaction prohibitively expensive, dooming this collaboration to failure. Imagine an amateur filmmaker creating content to upload to their website as they try to clear the rights of music that they've gathered from across the Internet. Or imagine someone who wants to give a television broadcaster the right to use, with attribution, a photograph that they had posted on their blog. In most cases, the legal fees would exceed the value of the transaction and the sharing would fail, either because the parties would ignore the law, or opt not to share because the legal cost of doing so was prohibitive. Creative Commons, the non-profit organization for which I am the Chief Executive Officer, is the "TCP/IP of collaboration and content layer." Creative Commons aims to solve these problems with a series of licenses, technical specifications and tools that allow creators to mark their works with the permissions that they wish to grant, free of charge. People using Creative Commons licenses decide whether they would like to allow commercial reuse or restrict reuse to only non- commercial purposes. They decide whether they would like to allow derivative use and modification of their creation. And they decide whether these modified works must be shared back to the rest of the world using the same free license or not. Creative Commons also provides tools for users to dedicate their works to the public domain. For some scientific data or educational resources the public domain provides the maximum flexibility and value. You can choose one of the Creative Commons licenses yourself or use the CC0 public domain dedication tool. Service providers like Google, Yahoo and Microsoft support Creative Commons, providing tools to technically mark your works with easily understood icons and standardized metadata. Standardized metadata means other users can easily find and use available creative works, making tasks such as attribution and citation easy and automatic. Users of Creative Commons licenses such as The White House, MIT, Wikipedia, Flickr, Al-Jazeera and many others have generated over 250 million works published under Creative Commons licenses and do not need to hire a lawyer each time they want to share because each of these works uses a standard license. People building on these works also do not need to ask permission each time they want to share and collaborate because the necessary permissions have already been granted. This lowering of friction and ability to interoperate creates an opportunity for completely new types of collaborations as well as the ability for previously excluded sectors of society to participate. Projects such as Open CourseWare and the open educational resources (OER) movement allow students and educators to share and build upon each others works dramatically increasing transparency and diversity while decreasing the overall cost of collaboration and delivery for online learning. Scientists and researchers all over the world are increasingly sharing data outside of the traditional academic and corporate silos enabling more participants and collaboration at an unprecedented scale. Previously, because of the technical difficulties and costs, many of these barriers were not visible and in many cases were necessary in order to build business models to allow the high cost sharing that was necessary before the Internet. Now, many of the systems put in place to protect businesses sharing information are becoming barriers to more widespread sharing as the Internet technically enables a whole new layer of collaboration and innovation. Even copyright itself can be a barrier to collaboration. TCP/IP and the Web are successful because they are open standards shepherded by non-profit organizations which are custodians of a bottom-up process taking inputs from and creating consensus from a wide variety of stakeholders. Similarly, Creative Commons is a non- profit organization with thousands of volunteers in over 80 countries working to develop standards for content sharing and to help organizations adopt these standards. Having 100 Internets or 100 World Wide Webs governed by incompatible "standards" would suffocate the network effects that we enjoy on our one interoperable Web. Having a single set of copyright licenses and a single metadata format is key to creating the network effect of interoperability at the collaboration/legal layer. Just as some networks still use X.25 and some electronic publishing systems do not use the Web and HTML, there will always be some cases where the standardized licenses that Creative Commons provides do not make sense. However, Creative Commons has become the defacto standard for the Internet and the ecosystem of sharing and is best viewed as much a standards organization as anything else. In the early days, those of us who were proponents of TCP/IP had to argue with regulators, lawyers and technologists who for a variety of reasons did not support TCP/IP. Creative Commons still has critics who have not yet understood and do not feel the benefit of the network effects and collaboration that Creative Commons enables. Just as we have seen with each new layer of the Internet stack, I believe that Creative Commons will soon become, in hindsight, an obvious thing and that all of the yet to be imagined innovations will have a dramatically positive effect on business, society and the environment. ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_R3mwco9q4ykj4imN43sqEg) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

<= div>Begin forwarded message:

From: Joichi Ito <joi@ito.com>
Date: October 30, 2009 1:46:08 PM EDT<= br>
To: <= span style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">David Farbe= r <dave@farber.net>
<= /span>
Subject: = Innovat= ion in Open Networks - Creative Commons, the Next Layer of Openness

Original Tweet: My blo= g post: http://bit.ly/3HW8qN and @McK= Quarterly version: http://bit.ly/4x2aNN of article on how @creativecommons is new stack layer

Original Blog Post:

A few months ago, McKinsey & Co. asked me to write an article fo= r their online magazine What Matters. The edited article, "Creative Commons: Enabling the next l= evel of innovation" was just posted to their site.

Followin= g is the unedited original version.

--

The explosion of i= nnovation around the Internet is driven by an ecosystem of people who work in an open network defined by open standards. However, the technical ability to connect in an increasing= ly seamless way has begun to highlight friction and failure in the syste= m caused by the complicated copyright system that was originally design= ed to "protect" innovation. Just as open network protocols created an interoperable and frictionless network, open metadata and legal standards can solve many of the issues caused by copyright and dramatically reduce the friction and cost that it currently represent= s.

Before Ethernet and RJ45 connectors became the standard, we connected computers together using a variety of different network technologies and connectors. It was usually physically impossible to connect computers from different companies together. Many of us will remember having Appletalk cables on our Macintoshes, which didn't connect to the network cables on our PCs. While Ethernet wasn't the "smartest" protocol around, because of its simplicity and the lack of proprietary patents encumbering its use, it became widely adopted as = a standard way to connect computers together.

Before TCP/IP was = developed, even if the computers were able to be connected together physically and electronically, the computers couldn't really talk to each other without proprietary networking software. There were the networking protocols from computer and operating system vendors like Appletalk and Microsoft's own networkin= g protocol. You could also buy networking equipment and software from vendors such as Banyan and Novell.

I remember very clearly whe= n I first heard about TCP/IP and I downloaded the free implementations for both my Mac and my PC and for the first time, was able to communicate between the computers and mor= e importantly with all of the computers in the rest of the world using TCP/IP. TCP/IP enabled the creation of the Internet and ended an era = of proprietary networks both locally and as services such as The Source, CompuServe and AOL in their original forms.

Then Tim Berners L= ee and the World Wide Web came along. Again, I remember clearly many people arguing that we didn't need the World Wi= de Web since we could already log into any computer on the Internet, download papers, find the citations and track down and easily downloa= d the references. Many people did not recognize, initially, the value that the interoperability and the simplicity that the World Wide Web enabled in creating documents on the Internet.

As we know in h= indsight, each of these open standards created an explosion of innovation. Ethernet enabled companies such as Cisco, 3C= om and others to emerge and compete in an area that used to be dominated by huge vendors who built super-expensive networking systems designed by telephone companies to specifications hammered out over years in Inter-Governmental standards bodies.

Similarly, TCP/IP allowed= independent companies, the first ISPs to compete at providing network services to companies and individuals, breaking, often for the first time, monopolies that the telephone companies were granted by government. This introduced competition driving down the cost of moving bits around and also enabled a whole ecosystem of software components, many free and open source. Author David Weinberger would later describe this system as "small pieces loosely joined." This new network created out of small objects developed by small teams using open standards and protocols was a completely new model.

In the past, organizations under the UN = such as CCITT that later became the ITU worked together with governments, telephone companies and their huge research organizations to create enormously complicate= d standards anticipating every possible problem and building in feature= s for the various constituents represented at in the meetings. After years of deliberation, these standards would be agreed upon and the telephone companies would contract massive projects taking years and millions of dollars to huge vendors who would develop the systems. There was no room for small pieces, small players or participation by any person or organization that wasn't well trained, organized, funde= d and authorized.

The Internet changed all of that. The Internet= Engineering Task Force (IETF) had the credo, "rough consensus, running code". Anyone could participate in the discussion and in fact, much of the discussi= on occurred online allowing just about anyone to contribute as long as what they were saying or the code they were writing made sense. The agile method of developing standards allowed very small teams and individuals to participate both in the standards process and the development of useful tools and components of the network.

It = took only several years from the days when "unauthorized devices" couldn't be connected to the Internet to when just about everything important that we were using to talk to each other was written by sma= ll teams on top of lightweight standards and protocols, mainly HTML and HTTP, on top of TCP/IP.

The Web and the ability for users to "= view source" and copy each other's code created an explosion of innovation, content and business models such as eBay, Amazon and Wikipedia.

If you try to imagi= ne what it would have been like to create Google before we had this stack of open standards, you would probably have h= ad to pay IBM millions of dollars to create the software on a proprietar= y operating system. It would have required a huge team of people taking many years. Since it was a "search engine" it most likely would have been given to the phone company to design and run. If we were using X.25, the CCITT equivalent of the Internet, we would be charged and would be charging each person for each packet of information that the= y sent and received from us in a network where each network operator ha= d a bilateral agreement with each other network operator.

This t= otal project probably would have taken a decade and cost a billion dollars and would probably not even have worked properly.

=

In fact, the total cost of actually building and launching the fir= st Google server was probably only thousands of dollars using standard P= C components, mostly open source software as the base and connecting to the Stanford University network which immediately made the service available, at no additional cost, to everyone else on the Internet. <= /p>

The open standards and the small pieces loosely joined had crea= ted an ecosystem of components and networks that dramatically lowered the cost of development, collaboration and delivery. This allowed people = to innovate, launch, fail, connect, mashup and remix in such an efficien= t way and at such low cost, that the center of innovation moved from th= e research laboratories of the giant companies to the startup and ventu= re capital scene in Silicon Valley.

Of course, there were startup= s and venture capitalists before the Internet, but the influence and scale of this new engine of innovatio= n was unprecedented.

The Internet continues to disintermediate a= nd disrupt sector after sector by lowering friction and enabling interoperability. We find businesses and whole industries having to change their models and compete with a whole new set of players ranging from individuals to companies to non-profit organizations. In most cases, this has create= d lower prices, more access and more choice for the users. The new industries outscale in size and global reach businesses of the past. =

The Internet has enabled us to technically connect and collabo= rate. But just as network software engineers were required to open communications between online users, we now need lawyers to sort out the copyright and content regulations between us so that we - businesses and individuals - can share, collaborate and build legally= .

Before the Internet, if two large companies wanted to collab= orate on a project or one company wanted to license a work from another compan= y for their territory, the deal makers would often meet in a posh hotel in Cannes sipping champagne to negotiate a price. After several round= s of golf and a few cigars, the executives would agree on the price and "my people will talk to your people" to nail down the details. Finall= y, the lawyers would be flown in to negotiate the contract. Often these deals were multi-million dollar deals, legal fees costing hundreds of thousands of dollars over the lifetime of the collaboration. However, the value and the cost of the actual transaction was so high that the legal fees were just absorbed into the cost.

Today, the Intern= et enables a professor in Croatia to collaborate on courseware with a professor in Japan. However, if they are going to legally share data and copyrighted material, they need to clear the licensing systems of both universities, calling upon their mutual leg= al departments. Most likely, they would need to bring in outside experts to translate the legal documents and finally they would negotiate som= e sort of contract for the collaboration. The legal fees between these two professors would drastically exceed the technical cost and probab= ly the value of the project, effectively making such a transaction prohibitively expensive, dooming this collaboration to failure.

<= p>Imagine an amateur filmmaker creating content to upload to their website as they try to clear the rights of music that they've gathere= d =66rom across the Internet. Or imagine someone who wants to give a television broadcaster the right to use, with attribution, a photogra= ph that they had posted on their blog. In most cases, the legal fees wou= ld exceed the value of the transaction and the sharing would fail, eithe= r because the parties would ignore the law, or opt not to share because the legal cost of doing so was prohibitive.

Creative Commons, = the non-profit organization for which I am the Chief Executive Officer, is the "TCP/IP of collaboration and content layer." Creative Commons aims to solve these problems with a series o= f licenses, technical specifications and tools that allow creators to mark their works with the permissions that they wish to grant, free o= f charge. People using Creative Commons licenses decide whether they would like to allow commercial reuse or restrict reuse to only non-commercial purposes. They decide whether they would like to allow derivative use and modification of their creation. And they decide whether these modified works must be shared back to the rest of the world using the same free license or not.

Creative Commons als= o provides tools for users to dedicate their works to the public domain. For some scientific data or educational resources the public domain provides the maximum flexibility and valu= e.

You can choose one of the Creative Commons licenses yourself o= r use the CC0 public domain dedication tool. Service providers like Google, Yahoo and Microsoft support Creative Commons, providing tools to technically mark your works with easily understood icons and standardized metadata. Standardized metadata means other users can easily find and use available creative works, making tasks such as attribution and citation easy and automatic.

Users of Creative= Commons licenses such as The White House, MIT, Wikipedia, Flickr, Al-Jazeera and many others have generated over 250 million works published under Creative Commons licenses and do not ne= ed to hire a lawyer each time they want to share because each of these works uses a standard license. People building on these works also do not need to ask permission each time they want to share and collabora= te because the necessary permissions have already been granted.

T= his lowering of friction and ability to interoperate creates an opportunity for completely new types of collaborations as well as the ability for previously excluded sectors of society to participate.

Projects such as Open CourseWare and the open educational resour= ces (OER) movement allow students and educators to share and build upon each others works dramatically increasing transparency and diversity while decreasing the overall cost of collaboration and delivery for online learning.

Scientists and researchers all over the world= are increasingly sharing data outside of the traditional academic and corporate silos enabling more participants and collaboration at an unprecedented scal= e.

Previously, because of the technical difficulties and costs, m= any of these barriers were not visible and in many cases were necessary in order to build business models to allow the high cost sharing that wa= s necessary before the Internet.

Now, many of the systems put in= place to protect businesses sharing information are becoming barriers to more widespread sharing as the Internet technically enables a whole new layer of collaboration and innovation. Even copyright itself can be a barrier to collaboration. =

TCP/IP and the Web are successful because they are open standa= rds shepherded by non-profit organizations which are custodians of a bottom-up process taking inputs from and creating consensus from a wi= de variety of stakeholders. Similarly, Creative Commons is a non-profit organization with thousands of volunteers in over 80 countries workin= g to develop standards for content sharing and to help organizations adopt these standards.

Having 100 Internets or 100 World Wide = Webs governed by incompatible "standards" would suffocate the network effects that we enjoy on our one interoperable Web. Having a single set of copyright licenses and = a single metadata format is key to creating the network effect of interoperability at the collaboration/legal layer.

Just as som= e networks still use X.25 and some electronic publishing systems do not use the Web and HTML, there will always be some cases where the standardized licenses that Creative Commons provides do not make sense. However, Creative Commons has become the defacto standard for the Internet and the ecosystem of sharing and is best viewed as much a standards organization as anything else.

In the early d= ays, those of us who were proponents of TCP/IP had to argue with regulators, lawyers and technologists who for a variety of reasons did not support TCP/IP. Creative Commons still has critics wh= o have not yet understood and do not feel the benefit of the network effects and collaboration that Creative Commons enables.

Just = as we have seen with each new layer of the Internet stack, I believe that Creative Commons will soon become, in hindsight, an obvious thing and that all of the yet to be imagined innovations will have a dramatically positive effect on business, society and the environment. 


--Boundary_(ID_R3mwco9q4ykj4imN43sqEg)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Mon Nov 2 07:15:19 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSH00001E1EBH@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:15:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSH00001E1AB8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:15:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSF00901QZQT2@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 09:59:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSF0083RQZPLQ@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 09:59:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2FFB95726 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 10:01:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D01F795724 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 10:01:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9B0494099 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 10:01:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F28768B972 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 09:56:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP02.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.197]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EABC8B971 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 09:56:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.9] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id nA1EuNJq004892 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 09:56:24 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2009 09:56:23 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: Cuts to Health Accounts May Force Patients to Expedite Care - Bloomberg.com To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <50600442-F9C2-4A3D-A2DD-C8A1759B5C96@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1076) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1076) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_G1JAJfQxph0u6m31HwWcdA)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:subject:date:references:to:message-id:mime-version :reply-to:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s= launch; bh=DK5QWSqygnH56H677yi8aac1BDU=; b=f8dzOItH/bbxNzveS0OAU lO6KUUmazg70VY+iETFuBhVjGTMZCuNfKaQ/zCcM9EdCCBbjLsRW+1ka+rx2BUVb w== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.197 X-Listbox-UUID: BB7F76D8-C6F6-11DE-AA36-ABA9E7D190CD X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <1789259747.2633521256947062910.JavaMail.root@sz0121a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_G1JAJfQxph0u6m31HwWcdA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I have never had any problems with this. Easy and fast. I fax in the meterial. djf Begin forwarded message: From: Wulf%20Losee Date: October 30, 2009 7:57:42 PM EDT To: dave@farber.net Subject: Re: [IP] Cuts to Health Accounts May Force Patients to Expedite Care - Bloomberg.com Dave: I've come to regard these flexible spending accounts as scams. I don't put money into them anymore. Over the years they became more and more restrictive about *which* medical charges they'd reimburse me for -- out of *my* cash! There was always some sort of paperwork issue that would take weeks to resolve (which would require a lot of work on my part to drive it though the system). One time, I even got lectured by an FSA call center agent that I needed to first get my insurance company to cover higher percentage of the costs, because they decided that my insurance company had short- changed me, and it was against their policy to reimburse for insurance underpayments (I kid you not!). Over the years it took more and more phone calls and effort to get these crooks to cough up reimbursements. The last time I used one was a few years back, but I ended up only being able to use 70 percent of the money that I had put in the account. They kept the rest -- even though in my estimation, my out of pocket expenses that I submitted were something more than a 150 percent of what I had paid in. Basically I had to submit 2.5 dollars of expenses to get 1 dollar back. It would have been cheaper for me to have paid taxes on that income, and then used it to pay my medical bills. Caveat emptor! --Wulf ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Farber" To: "ip" Sent: Friday, October 30, 2009 7:40:21 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: [IP] Cuts to Health Accounts May Force Patients to Expedite Care - Bloomberg.com Screw the middle class again djf http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aCrjtwzqVL6s Archives ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_G1JAJfQxph0u6m31HwWcdA) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE I have never had any problems with this. Easy and fast. = I fax in the meterial.

djf

Begin = forwarded message:

From: Wulf%20Losee <qx49@comcast.net>
Date: October 30, 2009 7:57:42 PM ED= T
Subject: Re: [IP] Cuts to Health = Accounts May Force Patients to Expedite Care - Bloomberg.com

Dave:
I've come to regard these flexible spend= ing accounts as scams. I don't put money into them anymore. Over the = years they became more and more restrictive about *which* medical cha= rges they'd reimburse me for -- out of *my* cash! There was always so= me sort of paperwork issue that would take weeks to resolve (which wo= uld require a lot of work on my part to drive it though the system).<= span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> 

One time, I= even got lectured by an FSA call center agent that I needed to first= get my insurance company to cover higher percentage of the costs, be= cause they decided that my insurance company had short-changed me, an= d it was against their policy to reimburse for insurance underpayment= s (I kid you not!). Over the years it took more and more phone calls = and effort to get these crooks to cough up reimbursements. 

The last time I used = one was a few years back, but I ended up only being able to use 70 pe= rcent of the money that I had put in the account. They kept the rest = -- even though in my estimation, my out of pocket expenses that I sub= mitted were something more than a 150 percent of what I had paid in. = Basically I had to submit 2.5 dollars of expenses to get 1 dollar bac= k. It would have been cheaper for me to have paid taxes on that incom= e, and then used it to pay my medical bills. Caveat emptor!

--= Wulf



----- Original Message -----
From: "David Farb= er" <dave@farber.net>To: "ip" <ip@v2.listbox.com<= /a>>
Sent: Friday, October 30, 2009 7:40:21 AM GMT -08:00 US/Ca= nada Pacific
Subject: [IP] Cuts to Health Accounts May Force Patie= nts to Expedite Care - Bloomberg.com

Screw the middle class again djf
http://www.bloomberg.co= m/apps/news?pid=3D20601087&sid=3DaCrjtwzqVL6s


--Boundary_(ID_G1JAJfQxph0u6m31HwWcdA)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Mon Nov 2 07:15:20 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSH00001E1EBH@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:15:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSH00001E1AB8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:15:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSF00A01R3I2T@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 10:02:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.83]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSF0085IR3ILQ@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 10:02:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21A2794169 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 10:03:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.87]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FFA394168 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 10:03:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10973942F4 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 10:03:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 473988BFB2 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 09:58:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP02.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.197]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B8198BFB1 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 09:58:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.9] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id nA1Ewr98004912 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 09:58:54 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2009 09:58:53 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: WORTH READING Random baggage searches coming to Maryland commuter trains To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <7EF70CAF-79F3-4E02-8673-8451A1100A75@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1076) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1076) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=GPNj88J9UqqS0uJu9 hRwSUc3CMM=; b=OG38+ud9F10+x4klfIjcHFB9REi7DRBO9gMRfrv5/7Imcxw6P bTfet23XFPThjCoBokMGJrJry+d06U5VQTe2Q== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.197 X-Listbox-UUID: 14593C12-C6F7-11DE-B95A-C20E1C1932FB X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Jim Warren Date: October 30, 2009 4:02:12 PM EDT To: dave@farber.net Cc: DJ Foremsky Subject: Re: [IP] WORTH READING Random baggage searches coming to Maryland commuter trains A more viable URL for this outstanding article is simply http://www.hlswatch.com/2009/10/15/ . --jim > Begin forwarded message: > > From: DJ Foremsky > > Date: October 29, 2009 2:57:25 PM EDT > > To: dave@farber.net > > Subject: Re: [IP] Random baggage searches coming to Maryland > commuter trains > > > In the same vein, via Bruce Schneier's website: > > http://www.hlswatch.com/2009/10/15/%E2%80%9Cdo-i-have-the-right-to-refuse-this-search%E2%80%9D/ > > (there were "smart" quotes in the URL above. If they don't work, > look at the October 15 entry on the site) > > david -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Mon Nov 2 07:15:21 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSH00001E1EBH@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:15:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSH00001E1AB8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:15:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSF00L01X7YZ3@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 12:14:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.83]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSF00J7OX7XLM@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 12:14:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 479B795FF6 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 12:15:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.87]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 447B895FF5 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 12:15:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35AA595E55 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 12:15:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B73F08BDA0 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 12:11:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com (qw-out-2122.google.com [74.125.92.26]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A87B8BD9F for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 12:11:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 9so846645qwb.27 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 09:11:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.224.115.152 with SMTP id i24mr2301755qaq.276.1257095466162; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 09:11:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.0.1.7? ([67.165.107.113]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 20sm541159qyk.5.2009.11.01.09.11.04 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 01 Nov 2009 09:11:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2009 12:10:05 -0500 From: Dave Farber Subject: [IP] Untethering and new connections To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7D11) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7D11) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_ikIyNcGJ7c5o+m3t97rYew)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=message-id :from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:date:references:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=6zwUswTplX6YataR3 zBuYvCBkgs=; b=QagaIC5EcuPB2Q99eY7FOLGNI174ZZDqALiyXGt1l6Xjofijb ZhOzrTDYejPFCdkUh9nOe0nSq9Iz1S+OaMH0Q== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:mime-version :subject:date:references; bh=HsJeJEMLHQoSYByKZ+xbAW7jGZqLF0vcBMNKn6QFlVE=; b=OjGb5Yb0VIpyim5BixjDZGqnip+k7Ibv8L0XS7Glxa/X2AsEDG5RItZnD4WQbsd4Um dxNxcypukmYaPV7cpTABN9BOFGWMLlGz3vWGEh2Lb5DUs67zp2DEcENxmw/FRhy8R1l+ xLfzE9k7IoHZFPl1d4jKnnlrvSVzq31uL8Iak= X-Listbox-UUID: 8E656BCC-C709-11DE-AC1A-97D8C941104E X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <01c801ca5b0f$e77a4ef0$b66eecd0$@frankston.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :x-mailer:mime-version:subject:date:references; b=TfC8m/2pguoTwp+055lI19nlXufSsH3rAUuVQjHOtY3AYSUSqb8ydUE9mQs0ZDdX72 NUDr/mjGLAguVtiE/C70M8wajQh7G0pxhdVwQ5JoWagzNW8p0d69UQvoVgowDRqeK+3o h+yHLjY2TWw6lhqkQdQkYIv8qf+frVoHEiAEc= --Boundary_(ID_ikIyNcGJ7c5o+m3t97rYew) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Begin forwarded message: > From: Bob Frankston > Date: November 1, 2009 11:25:18 AM EST > To: "Prof. David J. J Farber" > Cc: 'Lauren Weinstein' , nnsquad@nnsquad.org > Subject: Untethering and new connections > > ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_ikIyNcGJ7c5o+m3t97rYew) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT




Begin forwarded message:

From: Bob Frankston <Bob19-0501@bobf.frankston.com>
Date: November 1, 2009 11:25:18 AM EST
To: "Prof. David J. J Farber" <dave@farber.net>
Cc: 'Lauren Weinstein' <lauren@vortex.com>, nnsquad@nnsquad.org
Subject: Untethering and new connections

--Boundary_(ID_ikIyNcGJ7c5o+m3t97rYew)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Mon Nov 2 07:15:22 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSH00001E1EBH@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:15:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSH00001E1AB8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:15:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSG006011J6VH@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 13:47:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSG005561J6CS@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 13:47:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6FBD96C2F for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 13:48:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5768B96C27 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 13:48:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34C4E962F6 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 13:48:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47A8E8B246 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 13:46:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-yx0-f185.google.com (mail-yx0-f185.google.com [209.85.210.185]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB5B68B245 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 13:46:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by yxe15 with SMTP id 15so7077941yxe.9 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 10:46:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.90.8.21 with SMTP id 21mr67045agh.37.1257101209468; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 10:46:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.0.1.7? ([67.165.107.113]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 20sm2202328yxe.38.2009.11.01.10.46.47 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5) ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 10:46:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2009 13:45:46 -0500 From: Dave Farber Subject: [IP] Cuts to Health Accounts May Force Patients to Expedite Care - Bloomberg.com To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <171F2852-ECDE-4D5E-8750-6EDA44A7A7DA@me.com> MIME-version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7D11) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7D11) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_cppPQAJM+P2E6e3hA9BstQ)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=message-id :from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:date:references:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=PGj+mDdwC6YPEdjXu FJtK6Sc3Hg=; b=WeSZvUYymmn2zfy4tjfmANGWCaIksPjBwbovnVdXYhn2txp4u 8QTOKQMKVK0bGE3fzEJgcRI4SSQtzGF9r+ywQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:mime-version :subject:date:references; bh=GRmw8ddxeulTfdHwB4qJfz3IepJzQmD+YwaOpM5lSOo=; b=rE52JCzxOrjdU+EyXoh19OTI1inO/X8SpwC1m+GqzHpb0L24rQUbs8yGPZ9xLJLZCC KIPjjd2Op2L342Gd48afHm1diCfr2kOt567mVNnJmQk92QSS6A2kNZQtg537m86w95zz R3dp+E4v1yuWhyT60Q2Qjs1V5GlR5c4wbcw8U= X-Listbox-UUID: EACF3FE8-C716-11DE-8FD8-C17C8FD7B888 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :x-mailer:mime-version:subject:date:references; b=g5qA+OQ5xj/G8ZIAq2DtNt/LT9SZ60xyoqxZR0Xrqc1UwJTMhMDsilmd9x/5pFQ5KA FI98GD35Pl52oOjwazs0XeDJJwaAQlOcobmuKPOtdVxTt7eM8d0zIn/MfGIDrgHtNRcE NZtCuqK+kmDtDbT6FqbnYIuvjWI+nlsQV2oIg= --Boundary_(ID_cppPQAJM+P2E6e3hA9BstQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Begin forwarded message: > From: "Brock N. Meeks" > Date: November 1, 2009 1:14:47 PM EST > To: dave@farber.net > Subject: Re: [IP] Re: Cuts to Health Accounts May Force Patients t= o =20 > Expedite Care - Bloomberg.com > > When I was with MSNBC I was able to take advantage of a flexible = =20 > spending program. It always worked like a charm for my family, onl= y =20 > an occasional blip =E2=80=94 nothing works perfectly =E2=80=94 and = even then it =20 > was usually just a matter of a some new clerk getting some coding w= r=20 > ong. Each year when it came time to sign up for the plan the =E2= =80=9Chow m=20 > uch should we allocate?=E2=80=9D question became something of a rit= ual for m=20 > e and my wife because, as is pointed out, =E2=80=9Cwhat you don= =E2=80=99t use, =20 > you lose.=E2=80=9D After a few years we pretty much had it nailed = on how mu=20 > ch to set aside. One year we pumped up the spending to the maximum= =20 > because that was the year I intended to =E2=80=9Cget my eyes done= =E2=80=9D (laser =20 > surgery) and since it was an elective and not covered by insurance,= =20 > the flexible spending account really helped cut down on the cost. > > > > > On 11/1/09 9:56 AM, "David Farber" wrote: > > I have never had any problems with this. Easy and fast. I fax in th= e =20 > meterial. > > djf > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Wulf%20Losee > Date: October 30, 2009 7:57:42 PM EDT > To: dave@farber.net > Subject: Re: [IP] Cuts to Health Accounts May Force Patients to = =20 > Expedite Care - Bloomberg.com > > Dave: > I've come to regard these flexible spending accounts as scams. I = =20 > don't put money into them anymore. Over the years they became more = =20 > and more restrictive about *which* medical charges they'd reimburse= =20 > me for -- out of *my* cash! There was always some sort of paperwork= =20 > issue that would take weeks to resolve (which would require a lot o= f =20 > work on my part to drive it though the system). > > One time, I even got lectured by an FSA call center agent that I = =20 > needed to first get my insurance company to cover higher percentage= =20 > of the costs, because they decided that my insurance company had = =20 > short-changed me, and it was against their policy to reimburse for = =20 > insurance underpayments (I kid you not!). Over the years it took = =20 > more and more phone calls and effort to get these crooks to cough u= p =20 > reimbursements. > > The last time I used one was a few years back, but I ended up only = =20 > being able to use 70 percent of the money that I had put in the = =20 > account. They kept the rest -- even though in my estimation, my out= =20 > of pocket expenses that I submitted were something more than a 150 = =20 > percent of what I had paid in. Basically I had to submit 2.5 dollar= s =20 > of expenses to get 1 dollar back. It would have been cheaper for me= =20 > to have paid taxes on that income, and then used it to pay my =20 > medical bills. Caveat emptor! > > --Wulf > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Farber" > To: "ip" > Sent: Friday, October 30, 2009 7:40:21 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Paci= fic > Subject: [IP] Cuts to Health Accounts May Force Patients to Expedit= e =20 > Care - Bloomberg.com > > Screw the middle class again djf > > http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=3D20601087&sid=3DaCrjtwzqVL6= s > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_cppPQAJM+P2E6e3hA9BstQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE




Begin= forwarded message:

Fr= om: "Brock N. Meeks" <b= nmeeks@verizon.net>
Date: November 1, 2009 1:14:47 P= M EST
To: dave@farber.net
Subject: Re= : [IP] Re:  Cuts to Health Accounts May Force Patients to Exped= ite Care - Bloomberg.com

When I wa= s with MSNBC I was able to take advantage of a flexible spending prog= ram.  It always worked like a charm for my family, only an occas= ional blip =E2=80=94 nothing works perfectly =E2=80=94 and even then = it was usually just a matter of a some new clerk getting some coding = wrong.  Each year when it came time to sign up for the plan the = =E2=80=9Chow much should we allocate?=E2=80=9D question became someth= ing of a ritual for me and my wife because, as is pointed out, =E2= =80=9Cwhat you don=E2=80=99t use, you lose.=E2=80=9D  After a fe= w years we pretty much had it nailed on how much to set aside.  = One year we pumped up the spending to the maximum because that was th= e year I intended to =E2=80=9Cget my eyes done=E2=80=9D (laser surger= y) and since it was an elective and not covered by insurance, the fle= xible spending account really helped cut down on the cost.




On 11/1/09 9:56 AM, "David Farber" <dave@farber.net> wrote:
I have never had any problems with this. Easy and= fast. I fax in the meterial.

djf

Begin forwarded message:

From: Wulf%20Losee <qx49@comc= ast.net>
Date: October 30, 2009 7:57:42 PM EDT
To: dave@farber.net
Subject: Re: [IP] Cuts to Health Accounts May Force Patients to Ex= pedite Care - Bloomberg.com <= htt= p://Bloomberg.com>

Dave:
I've come to regard these flexible spending accounts as scams. I don'= t put money into them anymore. Over the years they became more and mo= re restrictive about *which* medical charges they'd reimburse me for = -- out of *my* cash! There was always some sort of paperwork issue th= at would take weeks to resolve (which would require a lot of work on = my part to drive it though the system).

One time, I even got lectured by an FSA call center agent that I need= ed to first get my insurance company to cover higher percentage of th= e costs, because they decided that my insurance company had short-cha= nged me, and it was against their policy to reimburse for insurance u= nderpayments (I kid you not!). Over the years it took more and more p= hone calls and effort to get these crooks to cough up reimbursements.=

The last time I used one was a few years back, but I ended up only be= ing able to use 70 percent of the money that I had put in the account= . They kept the rest -- even though in my estimation, my out of pocke= t expenses that I submitted were something more than a 150 percent of= what I had paid in. Basically I had to submit 2.5 dollars of expense= s to get 1 dollar back. It would have been cheaper for me to have pai= d taxes on that income, and then used it to pay my medical bills. Cav= eat emptor!

--Wulf



----- Original Message -----
=46rom: "David Farber" <dave@farber.net>
To: "ip" <ip@v2.listbox.com>
Sent: Friday, October 30, 2009 7:40:21 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacifi= c
Subject: [IP] Cuts to Health Accounts May Force Patients to Expedite = Care - Bloomberg.com <http://Blo= omberg.com>

Screw the middle class again = djf

http://www.bloom= berg.com/apps/news?pid=3D20601087&sid=3DaCrjtwzqVL6s

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--Boundary_(ID_cppPQAJM+P2E6e3hA9BstQ)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Mon Nov 2 07:15:24 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSH00001E1EBH@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:15:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSH00001E1AB8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:15:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSG00F015EIUT@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 15:11:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSG00BBO5EHLC@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 15:11:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7E2E954C3 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 15:12:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C166D954C0 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 15:12:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84CD494D2E for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 15:12:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E093E89A12 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 15:07:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP03.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.198]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FA8489A11 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 15:07:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.9] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id nA1K7eJ7000585 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 15:07:41 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2009 15:07:40 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Untethering and new connections To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <59ACB8C1-FF55-414F-86E6-B2D55899F271@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1076) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1076) Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=z+Nj5M1iKYTSOYmn8 e76WOZdxrk=; b=jtJMWqBrEuMSUFtUb3CFUJM7DwQsTqBhkNtlFV0TLRUeI0Cwa CxRy+js0fmxlGZQVJWY0n/V5/UKTbr85MpR8A== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.198 X-Listbox-UUID: 369FD972-C722-11DE-B7C1-CA5A6F7973FE X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <01c801ca5b0f$e77a4ef0$b66eecd0$@frankston.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: =46rom: "Bob Frankston" Date: November 1, 2009 11:25:18 AM EST To: "Prof. David J. J Farber" Cc: "'Lauren Weinstein'" , Subject: Untethering and new connections Lauren's point about being tethered by the cloud is very important. = =20 The cloud has its role but we need to remember that =93end-to-end= =94 is =20 not =93womb-to-tomb=94. The end points need to take responsibility fo= r =20 failure (and disconnection). Navigation needs to work even when one = =20 isn=92t fully attached to the cloud. This is why building atop reliable systems can be problematic =96 it = =20 leads to brittle dependency. Closely related is our tendency to think in terms of physical objects= =20 rather than abstractions. Thus we think about =93GPS=94 as a signal c= oming =20 directly from a satellite rather than looking for location =20 information. While there is opportunistic use of cellular towers and = =20 cataloging of MAC address locations why don=92t we consider =93locati= on=94 =20 as the point of commonality, AKA the API or interface? Why can=92t I = =20 find my location when I=92m not tethered directly to a satellite? Thi= s =20 is not a trivial problem but it is vital for linking abstractions to = =20 the physical world. The screen is another example. We already have the idea of a screen a= s =20 an abstraction. So why can=92t I use the screen in my dashboard as a = =20 resource either as whole or windowed. We have protocols such as X-= =20 Windows and remote desktops but we don=92t architect our devices to b= e =20 able to take advantage of these. Given a phone with a Wi-Fi connectio= n =20 it should be possible to do this with a software upgrade. Even better= =20 if the car and phone screens can be used in concert, especially if = =20 both are touch sensitive. For that matter why can=92t we use controls= on =20 the steering wheel =96 the ones currently tied to dedicated functions= . Here=92s where the concept of =93adult supervision=94 comes to the fo= re. The =20 narrow business needs of each participant makes it difficult to view = =20 these problems as whole. Perhaps these concepts of resource sharing = =20 may have a place in an IETF committee but it would require a champion= . =20 I would be one but for now I have to act as a meta-champion given my = =20 other distractions. It is in that role that I presenting these though= ts. Perhaps I=92m just impatient. Ideas like XML data formats (and their = =20 HTML counterparts =96 microformats) have been slow in getting adopted= . =20 We talk about specific implementations as with the =93smart grid=94 b= ut =20 where is world of smart ABSTRACT things? I do see some progress. For example some buildings in Amsterdam have = =20 QR codes that allow you to find out more about them. (http://qr.weste= rgasfabriek.nl/index.php?language=3DEN=20 ) In fact the QR codes tell you about an SSID that will give you = =20 access to a site with more information and a QR reader but, alas, the= =20 connectivity stops there. Alas, why can=92t they refer to =93device= =94 =20 instead of calling it a =93phone=94 as if you had to get your most ba= sic =20 stuff from a provider company whose only goal is maximizing ARPU? Thi= s =20 is an insidious assumption that keeps us tethered and lame. As a pragmatic observation while copying the pictures off my SD I= =92m =20 reminded that we still don=92t do simple things =96 like maintaining = the =20 time offsets in file systems so the time stamp remains constant. = =20 Instead, in each time after I copy the files in a different place (or= =20 =93D/S=94) the time stamps don=92t line up. No wonder we see talk about sharing medical records instead of medica= l =20 information =96 it=92s going to take generations to understand this s= imple =20 stuff. If only I had the patience to wait. -----Original Message----- =46rom: David Farber [mailto:dave@farber.net] Sent: Friday, October 30, 2009 15:29 To: ip Subject: [IP] Why Google Maps Navigation Won't Kill Standalone GPS Begin forwarded message: =46rom: Lauren Weinstein Date: October 29, 2009 10:01:43 PM EDT To: dave@farber.net Subject: Why Google Maps Navigation Won't Kill Standalone GPS Why Google Maps Navigation Won't Kill Standalone GPS http://lauren.vortex.com/archive/000629.html Greetings. There's a lot of excitement over Google's announcing that mobile Google Maps will be enhanced (at least for Android 2.0) with a true spoken turn-by-turn navigation system. It reportedly will be chock full of nifty features, such as satellite image and Street View overlays, live traffic feeds and other goodies. I won't even bother digging out all the links where I've spoken admiringly of Android, praised Google Maps, and even speculated on issues surrounding turn-by-turn navigation for Android. I'm looking forward to playing with Google Maps Navigation as soon as possible. On the other hand, the breathless assertions from some observers that this development will destroy the standalone GPS industry seem exceedingly overblown. There are several reasons why. First, the Cloud. The Cloud is both a strength and a weakness for Google Maps. If you're in a strong signal area, and have an unlimite= d data plan, loading maps from Google Servers can be entirely practical -- though the speed of some current phones can make this a = bit sluggish even under good signal 3G conditions. But users of other "data connection required" cell phone GPS services know, if you don't have a signal (or you have a poor signal) and you don't already have the needed mapping data cached on your phone -- well, you're out of luck. No signal, no maps. This is problem amenable to technical solutions, but there can be interesting policy and licensing issues. Google could cache significant portions of planned routes, or even entire routes, on phones so that loss of signal would not cause a sudden lack of mappin= g data. Taking this idea even further, entire cities, states, or even countries could be cached in advance. This latter concept is essentially the technique used by the $30 CoPilot Live Android application, which allows the user to download i= n advance essentially any part of the desired region (e.g. the U.S.) that they wish, and keep it resident on their phone. The amount of data involved is relatively reasonable, especially for individual cities and states. CoPilot then provides various live services to enhance that stored data. CoPilot displays aren't likely going to be able to match the sheer classiness of Street View overlays anytime soon -- but knowing that I always have the entire street mapping database for the state of California on my phone, even if I'm out of cell range, is a significant comfort. Here in the traditional canyons and urban canyons around L.A., there tends to be an inverse relationship betwee= n cell signal availability and the degree to which I find myself disoriented in an unfamiliar location. Google presumably could, if they wished, allow for a very similar degree of advance map downloading so that dependence on the Google Cloud in real time would be reduced or eliminated. But would they? = I don't know. I can think of relevant issues both pro and con. Here's another reason why traditional GPS isn't going away anytime soon -- it seems unlikely that most drivers who have become used to large in-dash navigation systems will want to switch to using a small cell phone display while driving. Though smartphone displays are certainly getting larger, there's going to be a limit beyond which further size increases will be impractical for a "pocket-size" device= . And the smaller the display when driving, the bigger the distraction risk would seem to be as drivers try to focus on the display. In fact, a sort of "reverse flow" could be possible. Users whose first GPS navigation experience is on cell phones may be sufficiently smitten with GPS that they could be more likely to order more traditional large screen in-dash navigation systems (many of which no= w also include various "live" data sources) with their next vehicle purchase. Of course, to the extent that drivers depend mostly on GPS voice directions and don't have to look at the displays, the size of the displays is of less importance. And it seems reasonable to assume that Android-based in-dash navigation units will appear -- an especially likely scenario given the insane price demanded for annual data updates to many in-dash navigation systems. Also, drivers without in-dash navigation systems at all (the 4-wheeled vehicle I drive seems almost old enough to require a starter hand crank) may clearly find simply plopping their Android phone down in a car mount (as I do) to be a practical alternative. The next issue may be the toughest nut to crack. Those of us in the tech realm tend to live in an environment where it's easy to forget that not everyone in the world uses smartphones and has unlimited dat= a plans. In fact, vast numbers of persons have no data plans at all, and even if the carriers gave away data for free, many people would b= e unlikely to use advanced phone features. In fact, there's a very significant segment of the cell phone industr= y concentrating on what we'd consider to be low-end phones, free of all advanced features and frills, completely oriented toward basic voice communications. Yet users who tend to choose such devices may also want to avail themselves of GPS navigation, while still likely wantin= g to keep their phones small and simple as well. Such persons -- and I believe they represent a significant and in som= e age ranges a growing segment of the population -- would seem much mor= e likely to go out and buy a under-$100 standalone car GPS unit to clip on their sun visor, regardless of available phone features. Inexpensive Android-based "GPS-only" devices are also presumably possible, but the key point in this regard is that many persons are looking for basic GPS devices that do not depend on outside services, and this situation is unlikely to dramatically change anytime very soon. The arrival of Google Maps Navigation for Android is a development many of us have been waiting for, and is a feature that I personally am very much looking forward to seeing in action on my own Android phone. Google Maps Navigation will be immensely useful to large numbers of persons. But the observers who seem to already be engraving tombstones for the traditional GPS navigation companies are -- in my opinion -- rather seriously jumping the gun. --Lauren-- Lauren Weinstein lauren@vortex.com Tel: +1 (818) 225-2800 http://www.pfir.org/lauren Co-Founder, PFIR - People For Internet Responsibility - http://www.pfir.org Co-Founder, NNSquad - Network Neutrality Squad - http://www.nnsquad.org Founder, GCTIP - Global Coalition for Transparent Internet Performance - http://www.gctip.org Founder, PRIVACY Forum - http://www.vortex.com Member, ACM Committee on Computers and Public Policy Lauren's Blog: http://lauren.vortex.com Twitter: https://twitter.com/laurenweinstein ------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Mon Nov 2 07:15:25 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSH00001E1EBH@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:15:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSH00001E1AB8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:15:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSG00K01J0GZI@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:05:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.83]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSG00I4EJ0GWE@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:05:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACA5595AE8 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:06:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.87]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAB4295AE5 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:06:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 973CD9654B for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:06:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 772D6892E8 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:01:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-gx0-f220.google.com (mail-gx0-f220.google.com [209.85.217.220]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34365892E7 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:01:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by gxk20 with SMTP id 20so6355778gxk.12 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 17:01:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.90.22.17 with SMTP id 17mr7786355agv.76.1257123708524; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 17:01:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.0.1.7? ([67.165.107.113]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 9sm2314920yxf.5.2009.11.01.17.01.47 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 01 Nov 2009 17:01:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:00:47 -0500 From: Dave Farber Subject: [IP] Military lags in safeguarding officers' identities To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <5094309D-9C7E-49B3-AF79-311204BAF068@me.com> MIME-version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7D11) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7D11) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_aPL9lR0hufEHT0+Fv2gxnA)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=message-id :from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:date:references:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=LZ0TPkqwB4z1d2HmI Q0P3Cjbc7E=; b=bNY9E0rpDVTRcinj7mk5DCAVViVLrZQz9JFbY0+1/6mhvbTt3 GWLlkupU2ymz5zkLoQPbWEcyRLcBb/Sg2lT/w== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:mime-version :subject:date:references; bh=TcAov5iHe90c1XK9WiSqOyPx+xNE+Obt3zGgDLgWkgw=; b=w0oq1n3mPmyvr6YtjiZV3/sqIY5pBMD+TuHBMAhf/13ZYrE48Ab6uhHCJf1XYW7K9w Bs0ENYdhZH/9d7/ZMkovBJeWf6JO0H8umJtqgSUxOghqcOyllmopLioOWMJAy2r6vhQA +CBk4o+d9XmrOOjudxUk9juHwdsJhZiEWWGGw= X-Listbox-UUID: 4D651EC8-C74B-11DE-A47E-874B18D01BD9 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :x-mailer:mime-version:subject:date:references; b=I4ecKOr8Jq6NjzmaiX6r7RhByn1xXlp3BqUXPFItffdG+juNX7mYbVZq187WDyQ4mm b3MbQ02zH8F4EJSUO6uArwfsVt6gHr8tPSPMNRG4pdx1Xvlib/YYCYLfI7Fst1WHl/qW kiV5LExPzQLbZE672/llioYcJo2K71DwnVhGc= --Boundary_(ID_aPL9lR0hufEHT0+Fv2gxnA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Begin forwarded message: > From: Carl Malamud > Date: November 1, 2009 6:51:49 PM EST > To: David Farber > Subject: Military lags in safeguarding officers' identities > > Hi Dave - > > For IP if you wish. > > Carl > > Military lags in safeguarding officers=E2=80=99 identities > By Charlie Reed, Stars and Stripes > Mideast edition, Monday, November 2, 2009 > YOKOTA AIR BASE, Japan - The military is playing catch-up on a year= -=20 > old complaint that hundreds of thousands of officers=E2=80=99 Socia= l Securit=20 > y numbers have been floating around on the Internet. > > In an October 2008 letter to the Defense Department and the Federal= =20 > Trade Commission, Public.Resource.org detailed its discovery of = =20 > roughly 232,000 military officers=E2=80=99 Social Security numbers = in govern=20 > ment and commercial databases, available to anyone with an Internet= =20 > connection. > > http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=3D104&article=3D65799 > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > The original FTC complaint and their response are here: > > http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/foia/gov.ftc_20081117_from.pdf > > http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/foia/gov.ftc_20081005_to.pdf > > > ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_aPL9lR0hufEHT0+Fv2gxnA) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE




Begin= forwarded message:

Fr= om: Carl Malamud <carl@media= .org>
Date: November 1, 2009 6:51:49 PM EST
To= : David Farber <dave@farber= .net>
Subject: Military lags in safeguarding offi= cers' identities

Hi Dave -

= For IP if you wish.

Carl
<= span>
Military lags in safeguarding officers=E2=80= =99 identities
By Charlie Reed, Stars and Stripes
Mideast edition, Monday, November 2, 2009
YOKOTA AIR BASE, Japan - The military is playing catch-up on a year= -old complaint that hundreds of thousands of officers=E2=80=99 Social= Security numbers have been floating around on the Internet.
In an October 2008 letter to the Defense Dep= artment and the Federal Trade Commission, Public.Resource.org detailed its discovery of roughly= 232,000 military officers=E2=80=99 Social Security numbers in govern= ment and commercial databases, available to anyone with an Internet c= onnection.

http://www.st= ripes.com/article.asp?section=3D104&article=3D65799
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

The original FTC complaint and their response are here:
http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov= /foia/gov.ftc_20081117_from.pdf

= http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/foia/gov.ftc_20081005_to.= pdf



=
--Boundary_(ID_aPL9lR0hufEHT0+Fv2gxnA)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Mon Nov 2 07:15:26 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSH00001E1EBH@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:15:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSH00001E1AB8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:15:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSG00101L4Z7C@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:50:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSG0004FL4ZPR@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:50:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E9389787E for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:52:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CAE097879 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:52:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 294CC96529 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:52:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 352428BEB5 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:50:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP02.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.197]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 889A98BEB4 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:50:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.9] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id nA21noNG014300 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:50:48 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:50:48 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Shawn Wylie, Bletchley Park To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <138E8CAD-6D6C-4C43-9E69-5526C54DEF7B@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1076) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1076) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=q+oJdpjSSlbrMNOg0 Fg3sn/F+io=; b=SXbwA8b+ac3fLU2b7nnLN6OeOzbc49z9Yloxw4DfPPJNDqrVu LBx6y71pEgpvpVtjnOht3ZLqo8Xb6LqhIAccg== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.197 X-Listbox-UUID: 25890502-C752-11DE-AAAD-DA9699B347D9 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <20091102012037.CB6A924259@panix5.panix.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: "David Lesher" Date: November 1, 2009 8:20:37 PM EST To: dave@farber.net (David Farber) Subject: Shawn Wylie, Bletchley Park "Except for Turing, no one made a bigger contribution to the success of Hut 8 than Wylie; he was easily the best all-rounder in the section, astonishingly quick and resourceful." The secrecy surrounding the code-breaking at Bletchley Park during the second world war was such that, when restrictions were lifted and the importance of the work became widely known decades later, many of those involved were rather put out by attempts from journalists and historians to pierce their silence. The mathematician and cryptanalyst Shaun Wylie, who has died aged 96, became a reluctant celebrity with his insider's perspective on Station X's achievements. ..... -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Mon Nov 2 07:15:27 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSH00001E1EBH@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:15:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSH00001E1AB8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:15:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSG00101L8IB2@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:53:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.83]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSG0005KL8IPR@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:53:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED74D959AF for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:54:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.87]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7DE7959AD for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:54:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC77795012 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:54:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBA6E8BFAB for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:49:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP02.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.197]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB9988BFAA for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:49:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.9] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id nA21noNF014300 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:49:51 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:49:51 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Military lags in safeguarding officers' identities To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <34D7F813-F882-4187-991D-9C38DEDFB7BE@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1076) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1076) Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=UeyF8xBkp0bGfChzD hZP8ebuj4o=; b=SxAtMpI+qovDB2PkvV87UfhRJpLSjSeXBznfm+jXE36J4cqKI DWI3k6ZqLV3MeQqOaewcupVXJlI2CgU94F0oQ== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.197 X-Listbox-UUID: 049C3DE6-C752-11DE-929D-86E44F40E8C2 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: =46rom: Carl Malamud Date: November 1, 2009 6:51:49 PM EST To: David Farber Subject: Military lags in safeguarding officers' identities Hi Dave - For IP if you wish. Carl Military lags in safeguarding officers=92 identities By Charlie Reed, Stars and Stripes Mideast edition, Monday, November 2, 2009 YOKOTA AIR BASE, Japan - The military is playing catch-up on a year-= =20 old complaint that hundreds of thousands of officers=92 Social Securi= ty =20 numbers have been floating around on the Internet. In an October 2008 letter to the Defense Department and the Federal = =20 Trade Commission, Public.Resource.org detailed its discovery of =20 roughly 232,000 military officers=92 Social Security numbers in =20 government and commercial databases, available to anyone with an = =20 Internet connection. http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=3D104&article=3D65799 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The original FTC complaint and their response are here: http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/foia/gov.ftc_20081117_from.pdf http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/foia/gov.ftc_20081005_to.pdf -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Mon Nov 2 07:15:28 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSH00001E1EBH@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:15:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSH00001E1AB8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:15:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSG00101LB3G1@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:54:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.83]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSG00M87LB2XG@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:54:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8F7795355 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:56:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.87]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6D8395354 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:56:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DE9B955ED for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:56:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61ED38BEC1 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:51:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP02.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.197]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1F448BEC0 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:51:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.9] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id nA21noNH014300 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:51:17 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:51:18 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: WORTH READING Random baggage searches coming to Maryland commuter trains To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1076) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1076) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=PtZeGGbw5ztINjJdH bTvpz0SpPk=; b=bUpRwOPvHEAwKbGqg9eTVcTT/+KTJ6kpYHdqen4Gv7AnAyauB ivq2Rnua5cg+WHBUMlmiz0CHJdegxaYsY57nw== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.197 X-Listbox-UUID: 36EC155A-C752-11DE-BBF7-B78268D35E1E X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <2D2BDA5966C04203BD022B2F6C45D589@CarlX60s> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: "Carl Stork" Date: November 1, 2009 4:37:00 PM EST To: Subject: RE: [IP] Re: WORTH READING Random baggage searches coming to Maryland commuter trains I don't understand the premise behind baggage searches on commuter trains. One motivation for airport security is that the 9/11 terrorist attacks demonstrated that the plane could be used as a missile to cause significant damage to people on the ground, and generally if a terrorist is able to cause a crash, he can kill a planeload of people. Trains can't be used in the same way. They really can't be used as a missile, and it doesn't seem possible to bring something in board to cause a crash. If one wanted to crash a train, it would likely be by damaging the track or switches on the ground. Bringing something on board would likely be an explosive or poison, but why limit yourself to trains - it could be any bus or building or street where large numbers of people gather. If the police increase the hassle factor of using transit, will it drive some percentage of riders to drive instead? Where they are at increased risk of an auto accident and are certainly creating more pollution and greenhouse gases that affect all of us. Beyond the civil right question of whether using transit should subject us to arbitrary, unexplained search, the consequences and costs of such searches may be more harmful than the slight risk of a terrorist event. -----Original Message----- From: David Farber [mailto:dave@farber.net] Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 6:59 AM To: ip Subject: [IP] Re: WORTH READING Random baggage searches coming to Maryland commuter trains Begin forwarded message: From: Jim Warren Date: October 30, 2009 4:02:12 PM EDT To: dave@farber.net Cc: DJ Foremsky Subject: Re: [IP] WORTH READING Random baggage searches coming to Maryland commuter trains A more viable URL for this outstanding article is simply http://www.hlswatch.com/2009/10/15/ . --jim > Begin forwarded message: > > From: DJ Foremsky > > Date: October 29, 2009 2:57:25 PM EDT > > To: dave@farber.net > > Subject: Re: [IP] Random baggage searches coming to Maryland > commuter trains > > > In the same vein, via Bruce Schneier's website: > > http://www.hlswatch.com/2009/10/15/%E2%80%9Cdo-i-have-the-right-to-refuse-th is-search%E2%80%9D/ > > (there were "smart" quotes in the URL above. If they don't work, > look at the October 15 entry on the site) > > david ------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Mon Nov 2 07:15:29 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSH00001E1EBH@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:15:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSH00001E1AB8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:15:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSH00J01BPBK2@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 06:24:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSH00I64BPBWX@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 06:24:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BACE1984E5 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 06:26:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.38]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9AD0984E3 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 06:26:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4F589784E for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 06:26:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B8878C7F3 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 06:24:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP03.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.198]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27A968C7F2 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 06:24:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.9] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id nA2BOYFK008788 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 06:24:35 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 06:24:34 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] WORTH READING Shawn Wylie, Bletchley Park To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1076) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1076) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=aQa389o44yGn4kJeW J5s8MGD/aA=; b=gdYIPOvd+DAmJfgqJKTduIYvyim8FQ3I8uhKvduwTLO2gqfOG vqDxiY78RnK8hW0YSkk6DDuGbaF31WlD9iHeg== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.198 X-Listbox-UUID: 4F10252C-C7A2-11DE-BFF5-B596FCEBE82A X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <8D2525E1-82B2-4577-AABC-BD1E234D3A29@joss.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Doug Humphrey Date: November 1, 2009 9:17:13 PM EST To: dave@farber.net Cc: "ip" Subject: Re: [IP] Shawn Wylie, Bletchley Park for IP On this general topic, a story. On one of my first companies (Digex) we used a law firm in DC and one of the lawyers we used there (I will not use names here - not important) had a mother who was at Bletchley Park, and the NSA Crypto Museum was relatively new, and very much "undiscovered" and of course had an Enigma that you could (and still can) touch and key - so we thought it would be great fun to have her up for a visit when she was in town. She loved the idea, I was told (having not at that point spoken directly with her) Once she was there, and saw it there, in the open, where anyone could see it, she felt sick and disoriented and one of the docents got her into a little conference room there and got her some water and things returned to normal - she waited outside for everyone to finish their (somewhat truncated) tour and they headed back to DC. she said that she just could not reconcile it being there where anyone could see it and know about it - so much was it drummed into them that this was Most Secret, the ultimate secret, the holy of holies, and never ever ever to be spoken of. They were, quite possibly, saving the planet; and this was the secret, and they were the keepers. In this day of bragging in order to get ones 15 minutes of fame and fortune, we should feel fortunate that there were (and hopefully still are) those who can keep their secrets. (oh, and Hi David ;-) doug On Nov 1, 2009, at 8:50 PM, David Farber wrote: > > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: "David Lesher" > Date: November 1, 2009 8:20:37 PM EST > To: dave@farber.net (David Farber) > Subject: Shawn Wylie, Bletchley Park > > > > > > "Except for Turing, no one made a bigger contribution to the success > of > Hut 8 than Wylie; he was easily the best all-rounder in the section, > astonishingly quick and resourceful." > > The secrecy surrounding the code-breaking at Bletchley Park during the > second world war was such that, when restrictions were lifted and the > importance of the work became widely known decades later, many of > those > involved were rather put out by attempts from journalists and > historians > to pierce their silence. The mathematician and cryptanalyst Shaun > Wylie, > who has died aged 96, became a reluctant celebrity with his insider's > perspective on Station X's achievements. > > ..... > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Mon Nov 2 07:15:30 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSH00001E1EBH@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:15:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSH00001E1AB8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:15:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSH00K01BVE7G@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 06:28:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSH00IBBBVDPM@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 06:28:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B690898F31 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 06:29:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.38]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B70898EFA for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 06:29:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 245B098723 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 06:29:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D08CC96113 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 06:28:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP03.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.198]) by a-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F09196111 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 06:28:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.9] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id nA2BS2O9008810 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 06:28:02 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 06:28:02 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] ICANN: Pay Now, Maybe Get a New Top-Level Domain Later To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <4864F6A3-F972-48B5-ADC6-386379150ADF@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1076) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1076) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=liXQ76HUgRw4RSiaU MEHP6xMqeM=; b=HX/15jTb+Bnxt1Qg0xgVWjVXpcYJW4hEvR660k40HR9f+C6Bu C9iOb5jB4PuJyX3cRdOyh7G5c5tADGupVkCVw== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.198 X-Listbox-UUID: C9F96474-C7A2-11DE-A443-A2348CA996E6 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <20091031225548.GA21200@vortex.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Lauren Weinstein Date: October 31, 2009 6:55:48 PM EDT To: nnsquad@nnsquad.org Subject: [ NNSquad ] ICANN: Pay Now, Maybe Get a New Top-Level Domain Later ICANN: Pay Now, Maybe Get a New Top-Level Domain Later http://bit.ly/3Gu80G (eWeek Europe) I'll be very clear about this. I feel that generally speaking, the current focus on more generic/global TLDs is a virtually total waste of resources, replete with enormous risks for frauds and confusion, plus political and other chicanery. In the final analysis, the whole concept basically now amounts to little more than a mechanism to squeeze vast new sums of money out of parties viewing new gTLDs from both prospective and protective standpoints. TLDs are now in many ways a form of "ancient" technology, that are creating problems for todays's Internet, not solving them. How many sites do you know that block *all* e-mail from dot-info? How many people on the street have ever heard of dot-mobi? There are so many important issues that we *need* to deal with for the global Internet. Frankly, the entire gTLD expansion concept as currently championed by today's ICANN strikes me as just one notch short of a scam. Maybe not even a notch. --Lauren-- NNSquad Moderator -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Mon Nov 2 07:15:31 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSH00001E1EBH@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:15:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSH00001E1AB8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:15:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSH00L01C6C4W@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 06:35:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSH00HIJC6C4D@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 06:35:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB5BB968FA for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 06:36:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7490968F9 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 06:36:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A22E59585B for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 06:36:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 733439611B for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 06:29:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP03.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.198]) by a-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 991419611A for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 06:28:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.9] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id nA2BS2OA008810 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 06:28:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 06:28:58 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] BitTorrent uTorrent 2.0 uTP will self-throttle to protect networks To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <927CE041-6DFD-4116-93E3-5559F1D47349@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1076) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1076) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=6K3opt2j5wJ8531Xv /Evck5IDpQ=; b=X0EaWulJrPFwHmflN0uk00bPQt94dOMMusaeywPgS8IISxoAV SVE0lBRwMsZi22j/bcNa0dtibnA6RnOO5A25w== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.198 X-Listbox-UUID: EA783C20-C7A2-11DE-91C1-80B74EEEAB6C X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <000301ca5b77$3e76f660$bb64e320$@net> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: "George Ou" Date: November 1, 2009 11:44:56 PM EST To: "'Lauren Weinstein'" , Cc: "'Richard Bennett'" , "'Brett Glass'" , "'Dave Farber'" Subject: RE: [ NNSquad ] BitTorrent uTorrent 2.0 uTP will self- throttle to protect networks Too bad nobody ever bothered to test if these claims actually hold water before repeating them endlessly. I just tested uTorrent version 2 build 16850 today and it still grabs all the bandwidth and jacks up the ping to unbearable levels for online gaming and VoIP. It certainly does NOT protect my network. George Ou -----Original Message----- From: nnsquad-bounces+george_ou=lanarchitect.net@nnsquad.org [mailto:nnsquad-bounces+george_ou=lanarchitect.net@nnsquad.org] On Behalf Of Lauren Weinstein Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 8:18 PM To: nnsquad@nnsquad.org Subject: [ NNSquad ] BitTorrent uTorrent 2.0 uTP will self-throttle to protect networks BitTorrent uTorrent 2.0 uTP will self-throttle to protect networks http://bit.ly/EduUk (TorrentFreak) --Lauren-- NNSquad Moderator -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Nov 3 06:59:34 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00H017Z54K@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 06:59:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00H017Z24C@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 03 Nov 2009 06:59:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSH00101EERI0@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:23:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSH00109EERH2@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:23:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF00F96FB4 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:24:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCAE996FB1 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:24:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8A1B9581C for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:24:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 084448C9DE for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:19:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP02.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.197]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5D428C9DD for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:19:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.9] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id nA2CJLmk021023 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:19:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:19:20 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Press release HongKong: now 100/100 Mbps @ US$13/month To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <81B48831-BF85-4674-AF21-670E93B44DFC@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1076) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1076) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_jLJT/U5b2GI23puhCkFd0g)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:subject:date:references:to:message-id:mime-version :reply-to:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s= launch; bh=emGljFM1u7RLWkP9SiWjZPKZ7cM=; b=cMGS5ZT3TXfOlfAmt/YF5 aaTk3RSdPBwIZ6WzAbAE9Z3YYLTlo5KmL3OSR/bY5ia5sU3lizY9Qtmk5+TzqOHB Q== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.197 X-Listbox-UUID: F430B6FA-C7A9-11DE-89BF-C8DE3F6CEF71 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_jLJT/U5b2GI23puhCkFd0g) Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Begin forwarded message: =46rom: "D.H. van der Woude" Date: November 2, 2009 6:43:42 AM EST To: dave@farber.net Subject: Press release HongKong: now 100/100 Mbps @ US$13/month David, The news below might be of interest to IP as it illustrates the worldwide digital divide. grtz Dirk \http://reg.hkbn.net/ctigroup_admin/files_upload/PR_MGM_E99.pdf For Immediate Release HKBN: =93AWESOME SPEED. FOR EVERYONE=94 100Mbps broadband at US$13/month (Hong Kong, 1 November 2009) Hong Kong Broadband Network Ltd (=93HKBN= =94), =20 a wholly owned subsidiary of City Telecom (HK) Limited (HKSE: 1137, = =20 NASDAQ: CTEL), today announces breakthrough =93AWESOME SPEED. FOR = =20 EVERYONE=94 - 100Mbps broadband service at US$13/month (HK$99/month). Some cars earn =93SuperCar=94 status by their sheer performance but a= re =20 priced beyond the mass. At HKBN, we have shattered this affordability= =20 barrier by delivering a =93SuperCar=94 class symmetric 100Mbps broadb= and =20 service at a mass market price. Anyone who stays within our 1.62 = =20 million households=92 network coverage, including all our existing = =20 391,000 broadband users are eligible to invite a friend to join our = =20 bb100 service for 24 months for price of HK$99 (US$13)/month each. At this monthly fee level, the cost per Mbps for HKBN=92s 100Mbps = =20 broadband service is just US$0.06 (HK$0.50), which is AWESOME World = =20 Class leading value. Furthermore, with our unique Speed Guarantee of = =20 80% local bandwidth and unparalleled performance in massively =20 multiplayer online role-playing games, we are delivering on one of ou= r =20 core purposes =93To experience the joy of advancing and applying = =20 telecommunications technology for the benefit of the public=94. Mr. William Yeung, Chief Executive Officer of HKBN said, =93With at = =20 least 32% of Internet users in Hong Kong still suffering from =20 broadband services below 10Mbps1, Hong Kong is lagging behind Korea = =20 and Japan in terms of Fibre-To-The-Home=92s Penetration2, and is only= =20 classed as =93Comfortably enjoying today=92s applications=94 in terms= of =20 Broadband Development3. Being the second largest broadband service = =20 provider, we have a duty to improve Hong Kong=92s Global standings. = =20 Given our exceptional word-of-mouth, our launch of =93AWESOME SPEED. = FOR =20 EVERYONE=94 is not just about competition, but also dedicated to = =20 applying telecommunications technology for the benefit of public, = =20 making Ultra High Speed Broadband Access the norm in Hong Kong.=94 For video highlights of Hong Kong Press event, with full Television = =20 Campaign, please refer to www.youtube.com.hk/HKBNatUtube =2E ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_jLJT/U5b2GI23puhCkFd0g) Content-type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

<= div>Begin forwarded message:

From: "D.H. van der Woude"= <dhvanderwoude@gmail.c= om>
Subject= : Press release HongKong: now 100/100 Mbps @ US$13/month
<= /span>

David,

The news below might be of interest to = IP as it
illustrates the worldwide digital divide.

grtzDirk



\http://reg.hkbn.net/= ctigroup_admin/files_upload/PR_MGM_E99.pdf

For Immediate Release

HKBN: =93AWESOME SPEED. FOR EVERYONE=94

<= b>100Mbps broadband at US$13/month

(Hong Kong, 1 No= vember 2009) Hong Kong Broadband Network Ltd (=93HKBN=94), a wholly o= wned subsidiary of City Telecom (HK) Limited (HKSE: 1137, NASDAQ: CTE= L), today=20 announces breakthrough =93AWESOME SPEED. FOR EVERYONE=94 - 100Mbps br= oadband service at US$13/month (HK$99/month).

Some cars earn = =93SuperCar=94 status by their sheer performance but are priced beyon= d the mass. At HKBN, we have shattered this affordability barrier by = delivering a =93SuperCar=94=20 class symmetric 100Mbps broadband service at a mass market price. Any= one who stays within our 1.62 million households=92 network coverage,= including all our existing 391,000 broadband users are eligible to i= nvite a friend to join our bb100 service for 24 months for=20 price of HK$99 (US$13)/month each.

At this monthly fee level, = the cost per Mbps for HKBN=92s 100Mbps broadband service is just US$0= .06 (HK$0.50), which is AWESOME World Class leading value. Furthermor= e, with our=20 unique Speed Guarantee of 80% local bandwidth and unparalleled perfor= mance in massively multiplayer online role-playing games, we are deli= vering on one of our core purposes =93To experience the joy of advanc= ing and applying telecommunications technology=20 for the benefit of the public=94.

Mr. William Yeung, Chief Exe= cutive Officer of HKBN said, =93With at least 32% of Internet users i= n Hong Kong still suffering from broadband services below 10Mbps1, Ho= ng Kong is lagging behind Korea and Japan in terms of Fibre-To-The-Ho= me=92s Penetration2, and is only=20 classed as =93Comfortably enjoying today=92s applications=94 in terms= of Broadband Development3. Being the second largest broadband servic= e provider, we have a duty to improve Hong Kong=92s Global standings.= Given our exceptional word-of-mouth, our launch=20 of =93AWESOME SPEED. FOR EVERYONE=94 is not just about competition, b= ut also dedicated to applying telecommunications technology for the b= enefit of public, making Ultra High Speed Broadband Access the norm i= n Hong Kong.=94

For video highlights of Hong Kong Press event, with full Televisi= on Campaign, please refer
to www.youtube.com.hk/HKBNatUtube =2E

--Boundary_(ID_jLJT/U5b2GI23puhCkFd0g)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Nov 3 06:59:35 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00H017Z54K@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 06:59:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00H017Z24C@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 03 Nov 2009 06:59:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSH00301OLBTK@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:03:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.83]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSH000DMOLBXO@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:03:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 729D5968C8 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:04:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.87]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EF97968C7 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:04:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B5F696213 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:04:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-www-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-www-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.83]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C95C8C9A0 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 10:58:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-www-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BDEA97DC8 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 10:58:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B02D78CB9C for 02 Nov 2009 10:48:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP03.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.198]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE7DE8CB99 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 10:48:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from farbermac.isri.cmu.edu (FARBERMAC.ISRI.CMU.EDU [128.2.220.234]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id nA2FmBRS013063 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 10:48:11 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 10:48:12 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] MIT Internet Traffic Analysis Study To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1076) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1076) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_whRodgaqlM0L9AuYqIDLUg)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=subject :references:from:content-type:message-id:date:to:mime-version :reply-to:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s= launch; bh=IXDct30a85RdYlVgd1hSxgtWs0o=; b=m0C16g6zLh2fE4UmonSxN c7veLFTbQL7yhrPLcLHnnDuBe62d74nLywLw7HaQiQQzonedpYMxX5LjQ9PL+l77 A== X-Reinject: approved by webmoderator X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.198 X-Listbox-UUID: 9116ACFE-C7C8-11DE-BAC9-99F86C044960 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 Lines: 145 References: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_whRodgaqlM0L9AuYqIDLUg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE I assume proper care is taken on privacy djf Begin forwarded message: =46rom: Jason Livingood Date: November 2, 2009 10:43:24 AM EST To: Dave Farber Subject: MIT Internet Traffic Analysis Study Dave - May be of interest for IP. During the activities surrounding Comcast=92s congestion management = =20 challenges and responses in 2007 - 2008, one of the criticisms we = =20 heard was that in the absence of good industry traffic data available= =20 to researchers, it was not possible to either (1) objectively analyze= =20 traffic data or (2) study any of the growth to develop new network = =20 designs and standards (not to mention conducting other general networ= k =20 research). As a result of that, we=92ve been working more closely wi= th =20 researchers on a number of fronts. One of these efforts has just bee= n =20 announced by MIT, and Comcast has advised its users of its =20 participation: Comcast Participates in MIT Internet Traffic Analysis Study The MIT Internet Traffic Analysis Study (MITAS) is a new research = =20 project at the MIT Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence =20 laboratory (CSAIL). The goal of this project is to undertake novel = =20 empirical research of ISP traffic data. Data will be collected from a= t =20 least six participating ISPs, including Comcast, and the project hope= s =20 to add more ISPs. Better data and collection methodologies are needed= =20 to inform the industry, the network research community, and policy = =20 discussions about appropriate technical and business approaches to = =20 traffic management. Detailed traffic data will be collected from ISPs over time, enabling= =20 researchers to formulate empirically valid characterizations of both = =20 aggregate traffic patterns, as well as a traffic profile for the = =20 average users. It is important to note that no personally identifiabl= e =20 information about any participating ISPs' users will be used in this = =20 project. More information about the MITAS research project can be found at the= =20 MITAS website, at http://mitas.csail.mit.edu. The MITAS project is = =20 led at MIT by Bill Lehr, David Clark, and Steven Bauer. Regards Jason Livingood Internet Systems Engineering Comcast PS =96 The above info was also noted recently our our Network Managem= ent =20 web page at http://networkmanagement.comcast.net ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_whRodgaqlM0L9AuYqIDLUg) Content-type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE I assume prope= r care is taken on privacy djf

Begin forwarded messa= ge:

= From: Jason Livingood <jason_livingood@cable.comcast.com>=
Date: November= 2, 2009 10:43:24 AM EST
To: Dave Farber <dave= @farber.net>
Subject: MIT Internet Traffic Analysis Study
=

Dave - May be of interest for IP.

During the activities surrounding Comcast=92s congestion management c= hallenges and responses in 2007 - 2008, one of the criticisms we hear= d was that in the absence of good industry traffic data available to = researchers, it was not possible to either (1) objectively analyze tr= affic data or (2) study any of the growth to develop new network desi= gns and standards (not to mention conducting other general network re= search).  As a result of that, we=92ve been working more closely= with researchers on a number of fronts.  One of these efforts h= as just been announced by MIT, and Comcast has advised its users of i= ts participation:

Comcast Participates in MIT Internet Traffic Analysis Study

The MIT Internet Traffic Analysis Study (MITAS) is a new research pro= ject at the MIT Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence laborato= ry (CSAIL). The goal of this project is to undertake novel empirical = research of ISP traffic data. Data will be collected from at least= six participating ISPs, including Comcast, and the project hopes= to add more ISPs. Better data and collection methodologies are neede= d to inform the industry, the network research community, and policy = discussions about appropriate technical and business approaches to tr= affic management.

Detailed traffic data will be collected from ISPs over time, enabling= researchers to formulate empirically valid characterizations of both= aggregate traffic patterns, as well as a traffic profile for the ave= rage users. It is important to note that no personally identifiabl= e information about any participating ISPs' users will be used in thi= s project.

More information about the MITAS research project can be found at the= MITAS website, at http://mit= as.csail.mit.edu.  The MITAS project is led at MIT by Bill L= ehr, David Clark, and Steven Bauer.

Regards
Jason Livingood
Internet Systems Engineering
Comcast

PS =96 The above info was also noted recently our our Network Managem= ent web page at htt= p://networkmanagement.comcast.net

--Boundary_(ID_whRodgaqlM0L9AuYqIDLUg)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Nov 3 06:59:36 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00H017Z54K@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 06:59:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00H017Z24C@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 03 Nov 2009 06:59:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSH00301OMIVW@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:04:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSH0033VOMI4C@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:03:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 488C396BE5 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:05:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4497E96BE3 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:05:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B7BE95AF4 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:05:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-www-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-www-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.117]) by a-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B04A96686 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 10:59:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-www-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8FBA290D3 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 10:59:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.48]) by a-lb-arc-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78806AA177 for 02 Nov 2009 10:11:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A10E8C57F for 02 Nov 2009 10:11:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP02.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.197]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87F148C57E for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 10:11:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from farbermac.isri.cmu.edu (FARBERMAC.ISRI.CMU.EDU [128.2.220.234]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id nA2FB7u5023776 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 10:11:08 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 10:11:07 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: ICANN: Pay Now, Maybe Get a New Top-Level Domain Later To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1076) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1076) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_UQFc5kYRUpp/+9ykxf6Byw)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=subject :references:from:content-type:message-id:date:to:mime-version :reply-to:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s= launch; bh=0Q6R9yJlwdwsG3k0I0uS20lYIwE=; b=OevaICyFQA5Ej/1WT2yVp phBvQGiwzLOeCFwnXDyTSeh2i+EWVDXPkS+KYGv37PlZasO7LV76Pwvvq8nKF5iD A== X-Reinject: approved by webmoderator X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.197 X-Listbox-UUID: A45095F0-C7C8-11DE-906E-82834216B40E X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 Lines: 97 References: <4c16869a0911020647u570ed2f2kcc72d3f3fd9d6f9e@mail.gmail.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_UQFc5kYRUpp/+9ykxf6Byw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Begin forwarded message: From: "Synthesis:Law and Technology Law and Technology" Date: November 2, 2009 9:47:37 AM EST To: dave@farber.net, lauren@vortex.com Cc: ip Subject: Re: [IP] ICANN: Pay Now, Maybe Get a New Top-Level Domain Later Dave, I find it hard to disagree with much of Lauren's analysis. But if there is a problem, and if the problem that exists is the reason that Lauren thinks gTLD expansion is not wise, then why not fix the problem? The problem was created by policy decisions. ICANN is in the policy-decision business, no? Fix the problems and the reasons to not spend energy on gTLD expansion go away. The core idea of not binding netizens to use English and our character set for identifiers is a good one, right? Yes .info is a problem. But at the global level, whole countries are problems and some get blacklisted by decent countries at some time. That is appropriate behaviour at the international level. Did we use the fact that there were bans/ sanctions against countries as a reason to get rid of the country system? Dan Steinberg SYNTHESIS:Law & Technology 35, du Ravin phone: (613) 794-5356 Chelsea, Quebec J9B 1N1 ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_UQFc5kYRUpp/+9ykxf6Byw) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

<= div>Begin forwarded message:

From: "Synthesis:Law and T= echnology Law and Technology" <synthesis.law.and.technology@gmail.com>=
Date: November= 2, 2009 9:47:37 AM EST
Subject: Re: [IP] ICANN: Pay Now= , Maybe Get a New Top-Level Domain Later

Dave,
 
I find it hard to disagree with much of  Lauren's analysis.= But if there is a problem, and if the problem that exists is the rea= son that Lauren thinks gTLD expansion is not wise, then why not fix t= he problem?  The problem was created by policy decisions.  = ICANN is in the policy-decision business, no? Fix the problems and th= e reasons to not spend energy on gTLD expansion go away.  The co= re idea of not binding netizens to use English and our character set = for identifiers is a good one, right?  Yes .info is a problem.&n= bsp; But at the global level, whole countries are problems and some g= et blacklisted by decent countries at some time.  That is approp= riate behaviour at the international level.  Did we use the fact= that there were bans/sanctions against countries as a reason to get = rid of the country system?
 
Dan Steinberg

SYNTHESIS:Law & Technology
35, du Ra= vin phone: (613) 794-5356
Chelsea, Quebec
J9B 1N1  &= nbsp;          &nbs= p;  


--Boundary_(ID_UQFc5kYRUpp/+9ykxf6Byw)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Nov 3 06:59:37 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00H017Z54K@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 06:59:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00H017Z24C@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 03 Nov 2009 06:59:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSH00801QPB35@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:48:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSH0071HQPBY5@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:48:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDA34988E9 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:50:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.38]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB7DB988E6 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:50:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B94CA9857A for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:50:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-www-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-www-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.83]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EE7C8CC4F for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:48:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-www-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A4D897E6A for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:48:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.48]) by a-lb-arc-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0767AADAC for 02 Nov 2009 11:15:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAB918CA7D for 02 Nov 2009 11:15:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E9428CA7C for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:15:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from farbermac.isri.cmu.edu (FARBERMAC.ISRI.CMU.EDU [128.2.220.234]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id nA2GEmBT023324 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:15:43 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:15:44 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: seems like we also need PLATFORM "neutrality" To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <3942354E-4AB3-4644-99E8-10CDC52DE123@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1076) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1076) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_VL0lKqciIoAEsHqdOlk89A)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=subject :references:from:content-type:message-id:date:to:mime-version :reply-to:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s= launch; bh=DMr1wkdfTYj49mh5QUcSiKx8KLE=; b=LLeQ6VVjr7jCFLXPku5uf eZqBoHAZggJDrf42lj76qYkFxVf9FxpUO+pnkYe589LoSSCgkRUysCBmlVIfBBhn g== X-Reinject: approved by webmoderator X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 8EA5820E-C7CF-11DE-AC8F-FDEE404F1638 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 Lines: 278 References: <011801ca5bd6$fa35cfc0$eea16f40$@frankston.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_VL0lKqciIoAEsHqdOlk89A) Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Begin forwarded message: =46rom: Date: November 2, 2009 11:10:18 AM EST To: , "'Dave Farber'" Subject: RE: [gd] seems like we also need PLATFORM "neutrality" Their business model is indeed the same as railroads -- http://franks= ton.com/?N=3DRailRoads=20 =96 force people to buy transport from you and set a price so you c= an =20 take a cut of the value created by the users. Neutrality, like common carriage, is an attempt to return the horse t= o =20 the barn. A useful talking point but problematic. So let=92s stop = =20 talking about those old networks and shift to Ambient Connectivity = =20 which doesn=92t provide a sinecure for such business models. -----Original Message----- =46rom: Jim Warren [mailto:jwarren@well.com] Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 19:13 To: Dave Farber Subject: [gd] seems like we also need PLATFORM "neutrality" There's been massive citizen support for "net neutrality" - to assure that the content CARRIERS do not choke or restrict user access to content PROVIDERS - especially not when the carrier provides CONTENT and seeks to discourage users' access to "competing" content. (This is like railroads in the 19th Century. Some rr's used their transport monopoly in communities to selectively charge rapacious rates, and block access for anyone competing with their non-rail businesses. Their arrogance and abuses eventually led Congress to create the ICC - Interstate Commerce Commission - to regulate the transportation industry that was and remains so crucial to citizens and the nation.) It's dejavu all over again: Apple blocks iPhone users from choosing their own cell-service provider (in the USA, but apparently not in Communist China!); prohibits Adobe's Flash app on iPhones and iPods and thus blocks user access to Flash CONTENT; blocks Netflix from access via [some] Apple computers, etc. Apple is doing this for EXACTLY the same reason that the railroads abused their position, and that the conglomerated communications cartel opposes content neutrality: Apple is using its position as a PLATFORM-maker to block access to CONTENT if it "competes" with Apple's content or their monopoly deal with AT&T. How long will it be before ALL equipment makers and communications carriers finish Balkinizing access and choking CONTENT providers into subservience to equipment-makers' and communications-carriers' all-powerful whims? I'm no fan of regulation, but - as with the all-powerful 19th Century railroads - maybe it's time to have "neutrality" legislation prohibiting PLATFORM manufacturers from using their power to block citizens' access to CONTENT (including applications) that users could otherwise access via those platforms. Or we could just let the "free" market decide, so powerless citizens can pay more and more, to access less and less, and have fewer and fewer content-providers, all subservient to the gadget makers and comm carriers. --jim; open-govt & tech-civlib advocate & sometime columnist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Warren justjim36 on twitter | Jim Warren on Facebook ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_VL0lKqciIoAEsHqdOlk89A) Content-type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

Begin forwarded message:

= Date: November 2, 2009 11:10:18 AM EST
To: <gd@greaterdemocracy.org>, "'Dave Farber'" <dave@farber.net>
=
Subject: RE: [gd] seems lik= e we also need PLATFORM "neutrality"

=
The= ir business model is indeed the same as railroads -- htt= p://frankston.com/?N=3DRailRoads =96 force people to buy transport from you and set = a price so you can take a cut of the value created by the users.=
&nb= sp;
Neutr= ality, like common carriage, is an attempt to return the horse to the= barn. A useful talking point but problematic. So let=92s stop talkin= g about those old networks and shift to Ambient Connectivity which doesn=92t = provide a sinecure for such business models.
<= div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.000= 1pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-se= rif; "> 
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Warren [mailto:jwarren@well.= com] 
Sent: Mond= ay, October 26, 2009 19:13
To: Dave Farber
Subject: [gd] seems = like we also need PLATFORM "neutrality"
 
The= re's been massive citizen support for "net neutrality" - to assure
 
(This is like railroads in the 19th Century.  Some rr's used th= eir
transport monopoly in communities to selectively c= harge rapacious
rates, and block access for anyone com= peting with their non-rail
businesses.  Their arr= ogance and abuses eventually led Congress to
create th= e ICC - Interstate Commerce Commission - to regulate the
and the nation.)
 
 
<= div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.000= 1pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Consolas; ">Ap= ple blocks iPhone users from choosing their own cell-service
provider (in the USA, but apparently not in Communist China!);=
prohibits Adobe's Flash app on iPhones and iPods and = thus blocks user
access to Flash CONTENT; blocks Netfl= ix from access via [some] Apple
computers, etc.
 
Apple is doing this for EXACTLY the sa= me reason that the railroads
abused their position, an= d that the conglomerated communications
cartel oppo= ses content neutrality:  Apple is using its position as a
PLATFORM-maker to block access to CONTENT if it "competes" w= ith
Apple's content or their monopoly deal with AT&= ;T.
 
How long will it be before A= LL equipment makers and communications
carriers fi= nish Balkinizing access and choking CONTENT providers into=
subservience to equipment-makers' and communications-carriers'
all-powerful whims?
 
railroads - maybe it's time to have "neutrality" le= gislation
prohibiting PLATFORM manufacturers from usin= g their power to block
citizens' access to CONTENT (in= cluding applications) that users could
otherwise a= ccess via those platforms.
 
Or we= could just let the "free" market decide, so powerless citizens<= /o:p>
can pay more and more, to access less and less, and have fe= wer and
fewer content-providers, all subservient to th= e gadget makers and
comm carriers.
 
--jim; open-govt & tech-civlib advocate & s= ometime columnist
   just= jim36 on twitter  |  Jim Warren on Facebook

--Boundary_(ID_VL0lKqciIoAEsHqdOlk89A)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Nov 3 06:59:39 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00H017Z54K@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 06:59:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00H017Z24C@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 03 Nov 2009 06:59:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSH00801QUKC9@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:52:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.83]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSH003L3QUK4C@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:51:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08E9896CD6 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:53:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.87]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 065C596CD5 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:53:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8F9B96C4F for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:53:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-www-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-www-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.117]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A61B88A336 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:48:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-www-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F7FE2918E for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:48:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.48]) by b-lb-arc-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80E06A93C6 for 02 Nov 2009 11:25:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D8378CB14 for 02 Nov 2009 11:25:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP03.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.198]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F81D8CB13 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:25:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from farbermac.isri.cmu.edu (FARBERMAC.ISRI.CMU.EDU [128.2.220.234]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id nA2GPKO1014796 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:25:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:25:20 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Snow Leopard Update Blocks Intel Atom, Kills Hackintoshes | Gadget Lab | Wired.com To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <3C403BC5-34A2-401B-B270-F035E6669BA9@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1076) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1076) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_+uM1mgDv3MzlEOzVDHnmpA)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=subject :from:content-type:message-id:date:to:mime-version:reply-to :list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=DDpPDTQmvE1v2mSBLqlsoGlP9wo=; b=MSW0wmQ+zCZ2bDwAF6hXD6TKtQk+ MRyehoMHddOniumhTudqdirvMB0Ksq4HIWkVlHV7e0J/Se5swk41W2dxoQ== X-Reinject: approved by webmoderator X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.198 X-Listbox-UUID: 854DD0D0-C7CF-11DE-A56E-C24EE82D88E8 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 Lines: 18 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_+uM1mgDv3MzlEOzVDHnmpA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/11/snow-leopard-update-blocks-intel-atom-kills-hackintoshes/ ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_+uM1mgDv3MzlEOzVDHnmpA) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/11/snow-leopard-update-blocks-intel-atom-kills-hackintoshes/

--Boundary_(ID_+uM1mgDv3MzlEOzVDHnmpA)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Nov 3 06:59:40 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00H017Z54K@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 06:59:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00H017Z24C@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 03 Nov 2009 06:59:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSI00A01479Y0@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 16:40:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.83]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSI00A4R479LD@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 16:40:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B85896428 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 16:41:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.87]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 488C496427 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 16:41:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2590D96C42 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 16:41:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58F3E97A86 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 16:37:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-gx0-f220.google.com (mail-gx0-f220.google.com [209.85.217.220]) by a-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F56397A85 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 16:37:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by gxk20 with SMTP id 20so644336gxk.12 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 13:37:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.101.75.3 with SMTP id c3mr224953anl.97.1257197826956; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 13:37:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.0.1.7? ([67.165.107.113]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 39sm2697007yxd.27.2009.11.02.13.37.04 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5) ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 13:37:06 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 16:36:04 -0500 From: Dave Farber Subject: [IP] Take a close look at your Verizon Wireless bills... To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <2A25D469-2D0E-4869-B6E1-B77E4B6C26A1@me.com> MIME-version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7D11) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7D11) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_Kvwx0Uv2PhH+8nxNWB2Okw)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=message-id :from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:date:references:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=pHvDOD7HWs9hTQuIU QiTLep0DOY=; b=hd1KbvR9dwgdkQeCEZGoNbpaaEhy/tGHuAg+n13VTNsgvx0tS q6ylLoD/0p/0XnUFpluY5qq3Jshi+OqX/g0RA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:mime-version :subject:date:references; bh=cfpobQuiR452RXjtpapv4V2hBZPAuoahY+GOWOi7fqg=; b=PJFTtYwS65CSHtOoks5yEqnbClOHFJ/2T5FMYWY9DobRxR/BF065d492qmwLWXfRo3 VJrHp7SCFZD3dz5qza0E1l7WyNBvv0l2pYx0HFUK0NSc8ncnPXyb7xy/yPsyr8WlRoE1 4PbPs3Hp7c7j5GPYdVDtitG/LOLnNMJJgJgJI= X-Listbox-UUID: E01E2D8E-C7F7-11DE-9BD5-D2A46B03FE5A X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <003301ca5bff$f608cb40$e21a61c0$@com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :x-mailer:mime-version:subject:date:references; b=D3KLja0G9ElGZXDzvv9XM57vi+Nr29IrEKJrZpEIP0aX1MF1I3YXLNItEISjsGlrF2 gPjfpQnIBT2luHbqDMz+n+A3yqBFqgttJvH+0QbKbcZPPoWquEnpfYZescNaRnss+G+u uyq7smQRuasmtVKCCgGl9EaCJ82SkMy/aZE8c= --Boundary_(ID_Kvwx0Uv2PhH+8nxNWB2Okw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Begin forwarded message: > From: "Kevin G. Barkes" > Date: November 2, 2009 4:03:37 PM EST > To: dave@farber.net > Subject: Take a close look at your Verizon Wireless bills... > > Hi Dave, > > I moved from Allegheny County to Fayette County a year ago. > > I was scrolling through my Verizon Wireless bill for this month and > noticed > a charge for "Allegheny Cnty Sales Tax." > > I sent an e-mail to Verizon, who responded promptly and credited my > account. > But the account rep noted in his e-mail: > > "I have updated your address on your account. Future statements and > correspondence will now be mailed to your updated address. Also your > county > sales tax will also be updated and billed accordingly." The rep > thoughtfully > provided detailed instructions for changing my address online. > > Those instructions seemed familiar, because I *had* changed my address > online a year ago. I reviewed my invoices and discovered the mailing > address > was indeed my Fayette County residence. And they all had Allegheny > County > sales tax charges. > > Somewhat peeved, I had an even closer look at the invoices and > discovered > that while the Verizon rep had credited me for the Allegheny County > sales > tax charged on my main wireless number, he had- like me- missed the > two > other wireless numbers on the account, each with its own list of > itemized > charges, and each containing a charge for the erroneous sales tax. > The front > page of the Verizon bill features a "Quick Bill Summary" that details > monthly access charges, Verizon surcharges, and taxes, but they're not > itemized. > > If any of your readers moved out of Allegheny or Philadelphia or > live near > those counties, they may want to check their bills. Apparently, > Verizon > doesn't check that status of your local sales tax obligation when > you change > address. > > Regards, > > KGB > > ----- > Kevin G. Barkes > Email: kgbarkes@yahoo.com > KGB Report: > http://www.kgbreport.com > Commentwear by KGB: > http://www.commentwear.com > National Temperature Index: > http://nationaltemperatureindex.com > DCL Dialogue on line: > http://www.dcldialogue.com > Random Quotations Generator: > http://www.goodquotations.com > Over 13,000 searchable quotations. > > ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_Kvwx0Uv2PhH+8nxNWB2Okw) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE




Begin= forwarded message:

Fr= om: "Kevin G. Barkes" <k= gbarkes@gmail.com>
Date: November 2, 2009 4:03:37 PM= EST
To: dave@farber.net
Subject: Tak= e a close look at your Verizon Wireless bills...

Hi Dave,

I moved from Allegheny County to Fayet= te County a year ago.

I was scrollin= g through my Verizon Wireless bill for this month and noticed<= br>a charge for "Allegheny Cnty Sales Tax."

I sent an e-mail to Verizon, who responded promptly and= credited my account.
But the account rep noted in hi= s e-mail:

"I have updated your addre= ss on your account. Future statements and
corresponde= nce will now be mailed to your updated address. Also your county
sales tax will also be updated and billed accordingly." T= he rep thoughtfully
provided detailed instructions fo= r changing my address online.

Those = instructions seemed familiar, because I *had* changed my address
online a year ago. I reviewed my invoices and discovered = the mailing address
was indeed my Fayette County resi= dence. And they all had Allegheny County
sales tax ch= arges.

Somewhat peeved, I had an eve= n closer look at the invoices and discovered
that whi= le the Verizon rep had credited me for the Allegheny County sales
tax charged on my main wireless number, he had- like me-= missed the two
other wireless numbers on the account= , each with its own list of itemized
charges, and eac= h containing a charge for the erroneous sales tax. The frontpage of the Verizon bill features a "Quick Bill Summary" that= details
monthly access charges, Verizon surcharges, = and taxes, but they're not
itemized.
=
If any of your readers moved out of Allegheny or Phi= ladelphia or live near
those counties, they may want = to check their bills. Apparently, Verizon
doesn't che= ck that status of your local sales tax obligation when you change
address.

Regards,

KGB

----= -
Kevin G. Barkes
Email: kgbar= kes@yahoo.com
KGB Report:
http://www.kgbreport.com=
Commentwear by KGB:
http://www.commentwear.com
Nation= al Temperature Index:
http://nationaltemperatureindex.com
DCL Dialogue on line:
http://www.dcldialogue.com
Random Qu= otations Generator:
http://www.goodquotations.com
Over 13,0= 00 searchable quotations.

--Boundary_(ID_Kvwx0Uv2PhH+8nxNWB2Okw)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Nov 3 06:59:42 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00H017Z54K@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 06:59:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00H017Z24C@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 03 Nov 2009 06:59:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSI00G01WORWL@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 02:55:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.83]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSI00CHWWOQ9W@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 02:55:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB60197B63 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 02:57:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.87]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B85B997B62 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 02:57:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3682963BF for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 02:57:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C548B8AFFA for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 02:52:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP03.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.198]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 945C88AFF9 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 02:52:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.9] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id nA37qfT4028208 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 02:52:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 02:52:41 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Obama DOJ defends warrantless wiretaps! To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <638F38AC-193D-4D68-BEE5-2BFA8D4C2454@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1076) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1076) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=Q1oj+5ZQOk1qfs46f YDvZVmQ5uk=; b=FiVaUN8RsaM2mKMuYqPyf8dmRETRfheVUpVbK2c64fKaHInWM bZ2bDT2kLPVgh+YWKXdRB07E5r6MT8Jl6Livw== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.198 X-Listbox-UUID: DEF4239A-C84D-11DE-8FA2-8DE8F648B748 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Jim Warren Date: November 2, 2009 3:00:29 PM EST To: Dave Farber Subject: Obama DOJ defends warrantless wiretaps! Is this change we can believe in?! --jim http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=8963381 Obama Administration: Toss Wiretap Lawsuit National security cited in Obama administration bid to stop warrantless wiretap lawsuit By DEVLIN BARRETT Associated Press Writer WASHINGTON October 31, 2009 (AP) Attorney General Eric Holder says a lawsuit in San Francisco over warrantless wiretapping threatens to expose ongoing intelligence work and must be thrown out. In making the argument, the Obama administration agreed with the Bush administration's position on the case but insists it came to the decision differently. A civil liberties group criticized the move Friday as a retreat from promises President Barack Obama made as a candidate. Holder's effort to stop the lawsuit marks the first time the administration has tried to invoke the state secrets privilege under a new policy it launched last month designed to make such a legal argument more difficult. Under the state secrets privilege, the government can have a lawsuit dismissed if hearing the case would jeopardize national security. The Bush administration invoked the privilege numerous times in lawsuits over various post-9/11 programs, but the Obama administration recently announced that only a limited number of senior Justice Department officials would be able to make such decisions. It also agreed to provide confidential information to the courts in such cases. Under the new approach, an agency trying to keep such information secret would have to convince the attorney general and a panel of Justice Department lawyers that its release would compromise national security. ...... -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Nov 3 13:24:22 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00C01PSGNY@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:24:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00C01PSDNR@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:24:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00N01AK68V@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 07:55:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSJ00L9KAK6UR@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 07:55:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9681F99FDB for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 07:56:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92AC699FD9 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 07:56:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CC2198AE1 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 07:56:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86A2A8DF26 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 07:53:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP02.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.197]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD4698DF25 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 07:53:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.5] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id nA3CrOKL018309 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 07:53:24 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 07:53:24 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: BitTorrent uTorrent 2.0 uTP will self-throttle to protect networks To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0447467A-13FB-4CA2-8B2F-B4F00502CA58@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1076) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1076) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_pbr1gLFHBFbOoPVuliI3DQ)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:subject:date:references:to:message-id:mime-version :reply-to:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s= launch; bh=MufEJF//P8xPTgbTVRC6CSODZS0=; b=PsQcCiV6koLPY6tS0qgYY +JHc9C43NP2ncZEflrXcw6y4RUYefCpRZ1z0Th/BDPJHfLuWm2Yx3SJZ9wZFAOz1 g== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.197 X-Listbox-UUID: E1AA3A46-C877-11DE-B3F4-A221314E9665 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <4AEF96AD.4060808@reed.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_pbr1gLFHBFbOoPVuliI3DQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Begin forwarded message: =46rom: "David P. Reed" Date: November 2, 2009 9:34:21 PM EST To: George Ou Cc: "'Vint Cerf'" , "'NNSquad'" =20 , "'Lauren Weinstein'" , = =20 "'Richard Bennett'" , "'Dave Farber'" Subject: Re: [ NNSquad ] Re: [IP] BitTorrent uTorrent 2.0 uTP will= =09=20 self-throttle to protect=09networks On 11/02/2009 08:40 PM, George Ou wrote: > > It=92s not just Richard Bennett that disagrees with Vint Cerf on Ne= t =20 > Neutrality. Dr. Robert Kahn and Dr. David Farber are on that list = =20 > as well and they do not have an aversion to intelligence on the = =20 > Internet and they don=92t believe that intelligence needs to be = =20 > regulated out of existence. I don't understand what point you are trying to make here. Is this = =20 some kind of allusion to a weird kind of democratic voting =20 institution? Are all the "Dr." mentions supposed to be some kind of= =20 credentialism? I haven't spoken to Bob Kahn recently, but I have spoken to Dave = =20 Farber. His view as explained to me about Net Neutrality is that he = =20 doesn't trust the government to implement any kind of rule without = =20 screwing it up royally (I'm happy for Dave to correct me). I could = =20 ask Bob - we're good friends and have been since he recruited me int= o =20 the Internet project. However, knowing Bob, I suspect his concerns = =20 about Net Neutrality are similar: he doesn't think regulators should = =20 design outcomes. I personally tend to agree with that sentiment - = =20 but I believe regulators are needed, not for design, but to insure = =20 against misbehavior by entities that have too much market power. And= =20 we see lots of claims being made by companies' lobbyists that are = =20 similar to the old Hush-a-phone and Carterfone claims: if users and = =20 entrepreneurs were to run their own applications and define their own= =20 priorities, the whole telecommunications system would fall apart, so = =20 the operators should be screw around with user-paid-for applications = =20 like BitTorrent, calling them "stealing". No one has ever suggested that "intelligence should be *regulated* ou= t =20 of existence". Those are your words, a "straw man" of sorts - how yo= u =20 would characterize someone else's views. I don't use the word =20 "intelligence" because I think (with Weizenbaum and others) that it = =20 cheapens the term to apply it to powerful technical methods of =20 whatever sort. However, I would argue that having the network =20 elements involved in transport try to "optimize" functions other than= =20 efficiency of bit transport and flexibility of switching (routing = =20 included) is not a good choice. Blurring the terms together to argu= e =20 bizarre constructions about "intelligence" and "regulation" makes for= =20 great political speeches. It's a lousy approach to technical design = =20 and architecture. > > You are mischaracterizing the problem by suggesting that a network = =20 > has to inspect the contents of the packets (not that there is =20 > anything wrong with content inspection and DPI) to classify =20 > priority. There are very accurate ways to classify traffic and it = =20 > has nothing to do with inspecting the content of packets and Richar= d =20 > Bennett described one of them on a comment to my site where he stat= ed: > =93There=92s actually a simpler way to do this that doesn=92t requi= re the =20 > ISP to examine the traffic to determine what=92s what at all: divid= e =20 > the time into small sampling intervals (sub-second) and give the = =20 > first few packets in each interval highest priority; then lower the= =20 > priority of each following packet linearly. During periods of =20 > inactivity, allow credits to accumulate that increase the number of= =20 > high-priority packets. > > That=92s not the whole story, of course, but it=92s a good start.= =94 > Perhaps I miss the point, but how does this algorithm work at all t= o =20 give what the user wants priority to be? It sounds like a scheduling= =20 queue discipline in a time sharing system where it is assumed that = =20 light users are supposed to get more performance than users who are = =20 using complex algorithms but need real time response. It doesn't = =20 tell you "what's what" - all it does is define a sharing discipline = =20 where all of the packets are treated them same, except for their rate= =20 of arrival. When an engineer says: no one should ever want to do = =20 that, I hear "I know what's good for every user". That's arrogance. > There are very accurate ways to simply analyze the traffic pattern = =20 > to correctly identify the needs of applications and to fairly =20 > allocate bandwidth and queue management. Just alternating the queu= e =20 > between different applications and different users would be =20 > infinitely more fair than a dumb FIFO system. Who proposed a "dumb FIFO system"? Again, just a strawman argument -= =20 is this anything other than mischaracterizing what others are saying = =20 so that you can be right? The Internet is full of pretty damn =20 sophisticated technology that works smoothly under the IP =20 abstraction. IP is not "FIFO" - the "in-order delivery" requirement = =20 of *some* applications is provided by TCP or by (timestamp ordering = =20 in) RTP. "At most once" delivery is achieved by packet labeling and = =20 discarding at the receiver. "At least once" delivery is achieved by = =20 source retransmission until acknowledgement. The underlying =20 transport networks can work by ESP if someone figures out how ESP = =20 works. No rule against using intelligence in the underlying =20 networks. The issue is just that the end-to-end protocols are not = =20 *dependent* on the underlying network. > > Lastly, you keep ignoring my statement that user or application = =20 > preference SHOULD TAKE PRECENDENCE over the ISP=92s default setting= s =20 > so long as it is within quota. Sorry to yell, but you seem to be = =20 > ignoring this very important point and you=92re misrepresenting my = =20 > position by doing so. There are no quotas today. I cannot respond to your point in the = =20 absence of the quotas you imagine to be real. What is the language = =20 of "default setting" expressed in? I take it you are proposing a network architecture other than the = =20 Internet because you refer to a very differnet approach. Feel free = =20 to construct a worldwide network other than the Internet, get lots of= =20 applications to use it, finance its deployment. Fine. Don't call it= =20 the Internet, and you've got a potential winner. Perhaps it should b= e =20 called "The Bell System". It didn't deliver web pages that are = =20 sourced in pieces from lots of different servers within milliseconds,= =20 but it was damned good at delivering isochronous single fixed rate = =20 streams from one point on the globe to another. Maybe it would hav= e =20 been a better direction. The ITU thought so. We could write an = =20 "alternate history" science fiction story, just like the idea of = =20 digital steam-powered computers created "steampunk". But the Internet has done pretty well. Why break it? To prove that= =20 Metcalfe was right that the Internet couldn't work at scale? > > I believe that it is fair to say that the belief that low bandwidth= =20 > applications (especially real-time) don=92t deserve to be prioritiz= ed =20 > over high bandwidth applications is fringe and I think many good = =20 > engineers would share that position. Many people are more flexible in their thinking - they are capable of= =20 thinking that priority has no inherent connection to bitrate. But if= =20 you cannot imagine that, I guess you think that more flexible thinker= s =20 are fringe thinkers. I don't know what makes a "good engineer". = =20 However, since my father was an engineer, and I was trained by =20 engineers, I suspect that the tradition of engineering focuses on wha= t =20 *users* want and not what *engineers* want them to want. > > > > George > > From: David P. Reed [mailto:dpreed@reed.com] > Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 5:19 PM > To: George Ou > Cc: 'Vint Cerf'; 'George Ou'; 'NNSquad'; 'Lauren Weinstein'; =20 > 'Richard Bennett'; 'Dave Farber' > Subject: Re: [ NNSquad ] Re: [IP] BitTorrent uTorrent 2.0 uTP will = =20 > self-throttle to protect networks > > I don't think the proper argument is about credentials. The proper= =20 > argument is about design and architecture. Bennett keeps trying = =20 > (on this and other lists) to impute motivations to people, to make = =20 > claims about their deviousness, etc. > > Vint's original point is about putting the user in control of =20 > priority, since the users (and the services the user uses on the = =20 > other side of the network) know what's important and what's not. = =20 > Reading tea leaves by inspecting the contents of packets for clues = =20 > is a piss-poor way to judge what the user wants. Let the user say = =20 > "this stream of packets is life and death" even if it looks like a = =20 > music download, and this is "not terribly important" even if it = =20 > looks like a telephone call. > > It's not up to the ISP to decide for the user what services are = =20 > important and what protocols are important. > > Trying to claim that Vint's view on this is a "fringe" idea is just= =20 > nonsensical. > > On 11/02/2009 06:34 PM, George Ou wrote: > Vint Cerf says: =93I don't understand why a low bandwidth applicati= on =20 > is necessarily higher priority than a high bandwidth one for exampl= e.=94 > > With all due respect to your credentials, it seems like you=92re = =20 > taking end-to-end too literally and even more so than most of the = =20 > authors of that paper. > I think you have a fringe position that a lot of great engineers = =20 > and academics would vehemently disagree with. In fact it violates = =20 > the most fundamental concepts of fairness that a low bandwidth and = =20 > non jitter-inducing applications such as VoIP or online gaming (sub= =20 > 100 Kbps) shouldn=92t have their packets forwarded first. Despite = the =20 > lower priority state, the high bandwidth applications WILL STILL = =20 > receive the highest average bandwidth application and the overall = =20 > file transfer speed of a P2P application would be unchanged. So th= e =20 > P2P application will experience zero degradation (I=92d argue it wo= uld =20 > improve in performance because fewer people would shut P2P off if i= t =20 > is less toxic) and VoIP or online gaming would experience close to = =20 > zero jitter. The fact that we=92re doing round robin on the transm= it =20 > queue is fundamentally more fair than a First In First Out (FIFO) = =20 > system. > > The system if implemented very accurately if it measures protocols = =20 > based on data patterns and not just simple port number =20 > identification, it would prevent protocol masquerading abuse and it= =20 > would avoid misclassifying some =93P2P=94 protocols such as Skype a= s a =20 > =93background=94 application. > > > Vint Cerf says: =93Nor do I see that low duration should necessaril= y =20 > have precedence over high duration (regardless of bandwidth).=94 > > I have made it clear in figure 4 of my article on why this makes = =20 > sense (concept thanks to Bob Briscoe). Assuming that both =20 > applications are bursty e.g., they take whatever bandwidth the = =20 > network can feed them, the lower duration application with much = =20 > smaller transfers should always get higher priority. Again, this = =20 > would result in no performance declination for a large bulk transfe= r =20 > since the low duration application would simply get out of the way = =20 > sooner. The difference is that the low duration application (web = =20 > surfing) would run MUCH better than before which would allow users = =20 > to leave their P2P or any other file transfer application running = =20 > 24x7 without fear of degrading their network. The result is that = =20 > web browsing and other low duration applications run much better an= d =20 > P2P would run faster due to the increase in available seeders. > > > Vint Cerf says: =93I can readily understand, for example, the shapi= ng =20 > of the overall traffic envelope for a given user, based on the = =20 > service class to which that user belongs (here I am thinking of = =20 > maximum burst capacity as a measure of "class").=94 > > As I=92ve mentioned before, you are severely limiting the tools = =20 > available to engineers and services by suggesting that the only = =20 > permissible differentiator between classes should be maximum =20 > bandwidth. Moreover, there=92s no reason that users shouldn=92t be= =20 > allowed to purchase different levels of fractional ownership (in th= e =20 > form of usage caps) and be permitted to purchase multiple usage cap= s =20 > e.g., one for low/medium/high priority where the lower priorities = =20 > will have the most generous usage caps (possibly no caps). > > > George Ou > > From: Vint Cerf [mailto:vint@google.com] > Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 3:06 PM > To: George Ou > Cc: 'David P. Reed'; 'NNSquad'; 'Lauren Weinstein'; 'Richard Bennet= t' > Subject: Re: [ NNSquad ] Re: [IP] BitTorrent uTorrent 2.0 uTP will = =20 > self-throttle to protect networks > > george, > > Yes I do have problems with the default choices as I am not sure it= =20 > is clear that these defaults make sense. I don't understand why a = =20 > low bandwidth application is necessarily higher priority than a hig= h =20 > bandwidth one for example. Nor do I see that low duration should = =20 > necessarily have precedence over high duration (regardless of =20 > bandwidth). These choices seem bereft of clear rationale. I think = =20 > one area that may drive our differences is whether there is an = =20 > overall workable way to allocate capacity among users, independent = =20 > of priority within that capacity. I can readily understand, for = =20 > example, the shaping of the overall traffic envelope for a given = =20 > user, based on the service class to which that user belongs (here I= =20 > am thinking of maximum burst capacity as a measure of "class"). In = =20 > times of congestion, I think I would be inclined to argue for user = =20 > prioritization within a "fair share" of the available capacity for = =20 > that user. > > vint > > > On Nov 2, 2009, at 5:58 PM, George Ou wrote: > > > > Dr. Cerf, > > I understand that Google and others like to tout =93user preference= =20 > prioritization=94, but you haven=92t addressed some of the key = =20 > limitations to that system. I am fine with user-labeled priority s= o =20 > long as it operates with reasonable priority quotas and budgets, bu= t =20 > what do you do about the vast majority of users and applications = =20 > that fail to label accurately or fail to label at all? So my =20 > question to you is this: > > =B7 Do you have a problem with a default priority mechanism= - =20 > one that would cede control to user or application preference so = =20 > long as it is within quota =96 that is implemented by the ISP which= =20 > always gives higher priority to low bandwidth applications over hig= h =20 > bandwidth applications, and gives priority to low duration =20 > applications over high duration applications? Do you have a proble= m =20 > with this type of good discrimination? > =B7 If you do have a problem with a default ISP priority, = =20 > please explain your reasoning. Is the objection based on a concern= =20 > that a default prioritization scheme would inaccurately classify = =20 > information (even though we can classify based on packet patterns = =20 > rather than simple port identification), or do you have a =20 > philosophical problem with it? And if so, how would this be any = =20 > different Comcast=92s =93Fair Share=94 system which prioritizes low= =20 > bandwidth users (average measured over 15 minutes) over high =20 > bandwidth users which the FCC reviewed and considers fair? > > > > George Ou > > From: Vint Cerf [mailto:vint@google.com] > Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 2:33 PM > To: George Ou > Cc: 'David P. Reed'; 'NNSquad'; 'Lauren Weinstein' > Subject: Re: [ NNSquad ] Re: [IP] BitTorrent uTorrent 2.0 uTP will = =20 > self-throttle to protect networks > > George, > > This discussion suggests that users should have something to say = =20 > about the priority of packet flows WITHIN the capacity they are = =20 > paying for (capital letters just in lieu of italics; I am not =20 > shouting). If the access ISP can do traffic shaping to keep users = =20 > within their pro-rata envelopes and also respond to user-specified = =20 > priority, I would think we would be moving toward a balance that = =20 > seems useful. > > vint > > > On Nov 2, 2009, at 1:54 PM, George Ou wrote: > > > > > I=92ve published my results here. > http://www.digitalsociety.org/2009/11/analysis-of-bittorrent-utp-co= ngestion-avoidance/ > > Dr. Reed. Your use of the words =93rhetoric=94 and =93tricks=94 ar= en=92t very =20 > useful to this discussion, and I would take issue with your comment= s. > > 1. BitTorrent still hogs over 90% of my broadband connection = =20 > over HTTP. This has significant ramifications beyond just real-tim= e =20 > applications like VoIP and online gaming. > 2. You shouldn=92t be so quick to discount VoIP and online = =20 > gamers. A very large number of BitTorrent (or any P2P app) users = =20 > also do online gaming and VoIP, and they=92re forced to shut down = =20 > their P2P application when the use VoIP or game and that actually = =20 > hurts the P2P upload and download throughput for the entire P2P = =20 > community since there are fewer seeders. > 3. Don=92t conflate wireless with wired broadband. Just becau= se =20 > 150 ms ping for wireless is best case doesn=92t make 70 ms addition= al =20 > on a wired network bearable for online gaming. Maybe you=92re = =20 > different, but I don=92t know any gamer that will put up with an = =20 > additional 70 ms if they can help it. I thought it would be =20 > tolerable for VoIP, but my Lingo VoIP phone service drops a =20 > significant amount of audio even when I merely upload with BitTorre= nt. > > > > George Ou > > From: nnsquad-bounces+george_ou=3Dlanarchitect.net@nnsquad.org = =20 > [mailto:nnsquad-bounces+george_ou=3Dlanarchitect.net@nnsquad.org] O= n =20 > Behalf OfDavid P. Reed > Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 8:43 AM > To: 'NNSquad' > Cc: Lauren Weinstein > Subject: [ NNSquad ] Re: [IP] BitTorrent uTorrent 2.0 uTP will self= -=20 > throttle to protect networks > > I find the word games/rhetorical tricks that Ou and Bennett use = =20 > fascinating. We'll see whether Farber posts my response below. > > George Ou wrote: > Subject: RE: [ NNSquad ] BitTorrent uTorrent 2.0 uTP will self-= =20 > throttle to protect networks > > Too bad nobody ever bothered to test if these claims actually hold = =20 > water > before repeating them endlessly. I just tested uTorrent version 2 = =20 > build > 16850 today and it still grabs all the bandwidth and jacks up the = =20 > ping to > unbearable levels for online gaming and VoIP. It certainly does NO= T =20 > protect > my network. > > I will do some testing myself, because I am curious about the =20 > mechanism in uTorrent 2.0. I do note that "unbearable levels for = =20 > online gaming and VoIP" is an interesting statement. > > If true that means that ping times might be 100 msec or more. Now= , =20 > since I have been recently measuring ping times on networks where = =20 > there are no "uTorrent" or other P2P services running, I can tell = =20 > you that on a variety of commercial providers, 150 msec. ping times= =20 > are common - and on ATT 3G in several cities, there are stable ping= =20 > times that can be measured that are on the order of 2000-5000 msec. > > So the "data" presented by Mr. Ou represents a very, very =20 > interesting choice of phrase. Say that it is "unbearable" for two= =20 > of the most sensitive-to-latency applications (only). > > I would, myself, stick to scientific measurements: how many =20 > milliseconds? Clearly he has measured that data. But I presume = =20 > the hope of a talented columnist is to get the word "unbearable" to= =20 > stick in the mind, and leave the "bumper sticker" impression withou= t =20 > the qualifying information. > > Rhetorical trickery? You be the judge. I'm gonna report numbers. > > > ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_pbr1gLFHBFbOoPVuliI3DQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

<= div>Begin forwarded message:

From: "David P. Reed" <= dpreed@reed.com>
=
Date: November 2, 2009 9:= 34:21 PM EST
To:= george_= ou@lanarchitect.net>
Cc: "'Vint Cerf'" <vint@google.com>, "'NNSquad'" <nnsquad@nnsquad.org>, "'Lauren Weinstein'" <lauren@vortex.com>, "'Richar= d Bennett'" <richard@bennet= t.com>, "'Dave Farber'" <dave@farber.net>
Subject: Re: [ NNSquad ] Re: [IP] BitTorrent uTorrent 2.= 0 uTP will=09self-throttle to protect=09networks
=


On 11/02/2009 08:40 PM, George Ou wrote:
=20 =20

It=92s not just Richard Bennett that disagrees with Vint Cerf on Net Neutrality.  Dr. Robert Kahn and Dr. David Farber are on = that list as well and they do not have an aversion to intelligence on the Internet and they don=92t believe that intelligence needs to be regulated out of existence.

I don't understand what point you are trying to make here.  = ; Is this some kind of allusion to a weird kind of democratic voting institution?   Are all the "Dr." mentions supposed to be so= me kind of credentialism?
I haven't spoken to Bob Kahn recently, but I have spoken to Dave Farber.  His view as explained to me about Net Neutrality is tha= t he doesn't trust the government to implement any kind of rule without screwing it up royally (I'm happy for Dave to correct me).  = ; I could ask Bob - we're good friends  and have been since he recruited m= e into the Internet project.   However, knowing Bob, I suspect his= concerns about Net Neutrality are similar: he doesn't think regulators should design outcomes.   I personally tend to agree with that sen= timent - but I believe regulators are needed, not for design, but to insure agains= t misbehavior by entities that have too much market power.  And we= see lots of claims being made by companies' lobbyists that are similar to the old Hush-a-phone and Carterfone claims: if users and entrepreneur= s were to run their own applications and define their own priorities, t= he whole telecommunications system would fall apart, so the operators should be screw around with user-paid-for applications like BitTorren= t, calling them "stealing".

No one has ever suggested that "intelligence should be *regulated* ou= t of existence".  Those are your words, a "straw man" of sorts - h= ow you would characterize someone else's views.   I don't use the = word "intelligence" because I think (with Weizenbaum and others) that it cheapens the term to apply it to powerful technical methods of whatev= er sort.   However, I would argue that having the network elem= ents involved in transport try to "optimize" functions other than efficien= cy of bit transport and flexibility of switching (routing included) is n= ot a good choice.   Blurring the terms together to argue bizar= re constructions about "intelligence" and "regulation" makes for great political speeches.  It's a lousy approach to technical design a= nd architecture.

 

You are mischaracterizing the problem by suggesting that a network has to inspect the contents of the packets (not that there is anything wrong with content inspection and DPI) to classify priority.  There are very accurate ways to classify traffic and = it has nothing to do with inspecting the content of packets and Richard Bennett described one of them on a comment to my site where he stated: <= /o:p>

= =93There=92s actually a simpler way to do this that doesn=92t require the ISP to examine the traffic to determine what= =92s what at all: divide the time into small sampling intervals (sub-secon= d) and give the first few packets in each interval highest priority; then lower the priority of each following packet linearly. During periods of inactivity, allow credits to accumulate that increase the number of high-priority packe= ts.

That=92s not the whole story, of course, but it=92s a good start.=94

 Perhaps I miss the point, but how does this algorithm work at a= ll to give what the user wants priority to be?  It sounds like a sched= uling queue discipline in a time sharing system where it is assumed that light users are supposed to get more performance than users who are using complex algorithms but need real time response.   It = doesn't tell you "what's what" - all it does is define a sharing discipline where all of the packets are treated them same, except for their rate of arrival.   When an engineer says: no one should ever want t= o do that, I hear "I know what's good for every user".  That's arrogance.

There are very accurate ways to simply analyze the traffic pattern to correctly identify the needs of applications and to fairly allocate bandwidth and queue management.  Just alternating the queue between differ= ent applications and different users would be infinitely more fair than a dumb FIFO system.

Who proposed a "dumb FIFO system"?  Again, just a strawman argum= ent - is this anything other than mischaracterizing what others are saying = so that you can be right?  The Internet is full of pretty damn sophisticated technology that works smoothly under the IP abstraction= .  IP is not "FIFO" - the "in-order delivery" requirement of *some* applications is provided by TCP or by (timestamp ordering in) RTP.&nb= sp; "At most once" delivery is achieved by packet labeling and discarding at the receiver.  "At least once" delivery is achieved by source retransmission until acknowledgement.   The underlying tran= sport networks can work by ESP if someone figures out how ESP works.  = No rule against using intelligence in the underlying networks.  The issu= e is just that the end-to-end protocols are not *dependent* on the underlying network.

 

Lastly, you keep ignoring my statement that user or application preference SHOULD TAKE PRECENDENCE over the ISP=92s default settings so long as it is within quota.  Sorry to yell, but you = seem to be ignoring this very important point and you=92re misrepresenting my position by doing so.

There are no quotas today.   I cannot respond to your point= in the absence of the quotas you imagine to be real.   What is the= language of "default setting" expressed in?

I take it you are proposing a network architecture other than the Internet because you refer to a very differnet approach.   = Feel free to construct a worldwide network other than the Internet, get lots of applications to use it, finance its deployment.  Fine.  Don= 't call it the Internet, and you've got a potential winner.  Perhaps it sho= uld be called "The Bell System".   It didn't deliver web pages tha= t are sourced in pieces from lots of different servers within milliseconds, but it was damned good at delivering isochronous single fixed rate streams from one point on the globe to another.    May= be it would have been a better direction.  The ITU thought so.  We could wri= te an "alternate history" science fiction story, just like the idea of digital steam-powered computers created "steampunk".

But the Internet has done pretty well.   Why break it? = ; To prove that Metcalfe was right that the Internet couldn't work at scale?

 

I believe that it is fair to say that the belief that low bandwidth applications (especially real-time) don=92t deserve to be prioritized over high bandwidth applications is fringe and I think many good engineers would share that position.

Many people are more flexible in their thinking - they are capable of thinking that priority has no inherent connection to bitrate.  B= ut if you cannot imagine that, I guess you think that more flexible thinker= s are fringe thinkers.   I don't know what makes a "good engi= neer".  However, since my father was an engineer, and I was trained by engineers, I suspect that the tradition of engineering focuses on wha= t *users* want and not what *engineers* want them to want.

 

 

 

George=

 

From: David P. Reed [mailto:dpreed@reed.com]
Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 5:19 PM
To: George Ou
Cc: 'Vint Cerf'; 'George Ou'; 'NNSquad'; 'Lauren Weinstein'; 'Richard Bennett'; 'Dave Farber'
Subject: Re: [ NNSquad ] Re: [IP] BitTorrent uTorrent 2.0 uT= P will self-throttle to protect networks

 

I don't think the proper argument is about credentials.  The proper argu= ment is about design and architecture.   Bennett keeps trying (on t= his and other lists) to impute motivations to people, to make claims about their deviousness, etc.

Vint's original point is about putting the user in control of priorit= y, since the users (and the services the user uses on the other side of the network) know what's important and what's not.   Reading tea leaves = by inspecting the contents of packets for clues is a piss-poor way to judge what the user wants.  Let the user say "this stream of packets is lif= e and death" even if it looks like a music download, and this is "not terribly important" even if it looks like a telephone call.

It's not up to the ISP to decide for the user what services are important and what protocols are important.

Trying to claim that Vint's view on this is a "fringe" idea is just nonsensical.

On 11/02/2009 06:34 PM, George Ou wrote:

Vint Cerf says: =93I don't understand why a low bandwidth application is necessarily higher priority than a high bandwidth one for example.=94

 

With all due respect to your credentials, it seems like you=92re taking end-to-end too literally and even more so than most o= f the authors of that paper.

 I think you have a fringe position that a lot of great engineers and academics would vehemently disagree with.  In fact= it violates the most fundamental concepts of fairness that a low bandwid= th and non jitter-inducing applications such as VoIP or online gaming (sub 100 Kbps) shouldn=92t have their packets forwarded first.  Despite the lower priority = state, the high bandwidth applications WILL STILL receive the highest average bandwidth application and the overall file transfer speed of a P2P application would be unchanged.  So the P2P application will experience zero degradat= ion (I=92d argue it would improve in performance because fewer people wou= ld shut P2P off if it is less toxic) and VoIP or online gaming would experience close to zero jitter.  The fact that we=92re doing round robin o= n the transmit queue is fundamentally more fair than a First In First Out (FIFO) system.

 

The system if implemented very accurately if it measures protocols based on data patterns and not just simple port number identification, it would prevent protocol masquerading abuse and it would avoid misclassifying some =93P2P=94 protocols such as Skype as a =93background=94 application.

 

 

Vint Cerf says: =93Nor do I see that l= ow duration should necessarily have precedence over high duration (regardless of bandwidth).=94

 =

I have made it clear in figure 4 of my article on why this makes sense (concept thanks to Bob Briscoe).  Assuming that both applications are bursty e.g., they= take whatever bandwidth the network can feed them, the lower duration application with much smaller transfers should always get higher priority.  = Again, this would result in no performance declination for a large bulk transfer since the low duration application would simply get out of the way sooner.&= nbsp; The difference is that the low duration application (web surfing) would r= un MUCH better than before which would allow users to leave their P2P or any other file transfer application running 24x7 without fear of degrading their network.  The result is that web browsing and other low duration applications run much better and P2P would run faster due to the increase in available seeders.

 

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">&= nbsp;

Vint Cerf says: = =93I can readily understand, for example, the shaping of the overall traffic envelope for a given user= , based on the service class to which that user belongs (here I am thinking of maximum burst capacity as a measure of "class").=94

 

As I=92ve mentioned before, you are severely limiting the tools available to engineers and services by suggesting that the only permissible differentiator between classes should be maximum bandwidth.  Moreover, there=92s no reason that users shouldn=92t be allowed to purchase different levels of fractional ownership (in the form of usa= ge caps) and be permitted to purchase multiple usage caps e.g., one for low/medium/high priority where the lower priorities will have the most generous usage caps (possibly no caps).

 

=

=  

George Ou

 

=

From: Vint Cerf [mai= lto:vint@google.com]
Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 3:06 PM
To: George Ou
Cc: 'David P. Reed'; 'NNSquad'; 'Lauren Weinstein'; 'Richard Bennett'
Subject: Re: [ NNSquad ] Re: [IP] BitTorrent uTorrent 2.0 uT= P will self-throttle to protect networks

 

george,

 

Yes I do have problems with the default= choices as I am not sure it is clear that these defaults make sense. I don't understand w= hy a low bandwidth application is necessarily higher priority than a high bandwidth one for example. Nor do I see that low duration should necessarily have precedence over high duration (regardless of bandwidth). These choices seem bere= ft of clear rationale.  I think one area that may drive our difference= s is whether there is an overall workable way to allocate capacity among users, independent of priority within that capacity. I can readily understan= d, for example, the shaping of the overall traffic envelope for a given user= , based on the service class to which that user belongs (here I am thinking of maximum burst capacity as a measure of "class"). In times of congestion, I think I would be inclined to argue for user prioritization within a "fair share" of the available capacity for that user.

 

vint

 

 

On Nov 2, 2009, at 5:58 PM, George Ou w= rote:




Dr. Cerf,

 

I understand that Google and others like to tout =93user preference prioritization=94, but you haven=92t addressed some of the key limitations to that system.  I am fine with user-labeled pri= ority so long as it operates with reasonable priority quotas and budgets, but what do you do about the vast majority of users and applications that fail to label accurately or fail to label at all?  So my question to you is th= is:

 

=B7     &nbs= p;   Do you have a problem with a default priority mechanism - one that would cede control to user or application preference so long as it is within quota =96 that is implemented by t= he ISP which always gives higher priority to low bandwidth applications over high bandwidth applications, and gives priority to low duration applicatio= ns over high duration applications?  Do you have a problem with this type of = good discrimination?

=B7     &nbs= p;   If you do have a problem with a default ISP priority, please explain your reasoning.  Is the objection based on a concern that a default prioritization scheme would inaccurately classify information (even though we can classify based on packet patterns rather than simple port identification), or do you have a philosophic= al problem with it?  And if so, how would this be any different Comcast= =92s =93Fair Share=94 system which prioritizes low bandwidth users (averag= e measured over 15 minutes) over high bandwidth users which the FCC reviewed and considers fair?

 

 

 

George Ou

 

From:=  Vint Cerf [mailto:v= int@google.com] 
Sent: Mond= ay, November 02, 2009 2:33 PM
To: George= Ou
Cc: 'David= P. Reed'; 'NNSquad'; 'Lauren Weinstein'
Subject: R= e: [ NNSquad ] Re: [IP] BitTorrent uTorrent 2.0 uTP will self-throttle to protect networks

 

George,

 

This discussion suggests that users sho= uld have something to say about the priority of packet flows WITHIN the capacity they are paying for (capital letters just in lieu of italics; I am not shouting). If the access ISP can do traffic shaping to keep users within their pro-rata envelopes and also respond to user-specified priority, I would think we would be moving toward a balance that seems useful.

 

vint

 

 

On Nov 2, 2009, at 1:54 PM, George Ou w= rote:





I=92ve published my results here.<= /o:p>

 

Dr. Reed.  Your use of the words = =93rhetoric=94 and =93tricks=94 aren=92t very useful to this discussion, and I would take issue with your comments.

 

1.       BitTorrent still hogs over 90% of my broadband connection over HTTP.  This has signifi= cant ramifications beyond just real-time applications like VoIP and online gaming.

2.      You shouldn=92t be so quick to discount VoIP and online gamers.  A very large number o= f BitTorrent (or any P2P app) users also do online gaming and VoIP, and they=92re forced to shut down their P2P application when the use VoIP= or game and that actually hurts the P2P upload and download throughput f= or the entire P2P community since there are fewer seeders.=

3.      Don=92t conflate wireless with wired broadband.  Just because 150 ms ping for wireless is = best case doesn=92t make 70 ms additional on a wired network bearable for onlin= e gaming.  Maybe you=92re different, but I don=92t know any gamer that will put up with an additional 70 ms if they can help it.  = I thought it would be tolerable for VoIP, but my Lingo VoIP phone service drops= a significant amount of audio even when I merely upload with BitTorrent.

 

 

 

George Ou

 

From:=  nnsquad-= bounces+george_ou=3Dlanarchitect.net@nnsquad.org [= mailto:nnsquad-bounces+george_ou=3Dlanarchitect.net@nnsquad.org]<= span class=3D"apple-converted-space"> On Behalf Of= David P. Reed
Sent: Mond= ay, November 02, 2009 8:43 AM
To: 'NNSqu= ad'
Cc: Lauren= Weinstein
Subject: [= NNSquad ] Re: [IP] BitTorrent uTorrent 2.0 uTP will self-throttle to protect networks

 

I find the word games/rhetorical tricks= that Ou and Bennett use fascinating.  We'll see whether Farber posts my response bel= ow.

George Ou wrote:

Subject= : RE: [ NNSquad ] BitTorrent uTorrent 2.0 uTP will self-throttle to protect  =   networks 

Too bad nobody ever bothered to test if these claims actually hold wa= ter 
before repeating them endlessly.  I just tested uTorrent version= 2 build 
16850 today and it still grabs all the bandwidth and jacks up the pin= g to 
unbearable levels for online gaming and VoIP.  It certainly does= NOT protect 
my network.

I will do some testing myself, because I am curious about the mechanism in uTorrent 2.0.   I do note that "unbearable levels for onlin= e gaming and VoIP" is an interesting statement.

If true that means that ping times might be 100 msec or more. &n= bsp; Now, since I have been recently measuring ping times on networks where the= re are no "uTorrent" or other P2P services running, I can tell you that on a variety of commercial providers, 150 msec. ping times are common - an= d on ATT 3G in several cities, there are stable ping times that can be measure= d that are on the order of 2000-5000 msec.

So the "data" presented by Mr. Ou represents a very, very interesting choice of phrase.   Say that it is "unbearable" for two of the most sensitive-to-latency applications (only).   

I would, myself, stick to scientific measurements: how many milliseconds?   Clearly he has measured that data. &nb= sp; But I presume the hope of a talented columnist is to get the word "unbearable" to stick in the mind, and leave the "bumper sticker" impression without the qualifying information.

Rhetorical trickery?  You be the judge.   I'm gonna re= port numbers.

 

 


--Boundary_(ID_pbr1gLFHBFbOoPVuliI3DQ)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Nov 3 13:24:24 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00C01PSGNY@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:24:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00C01PSDNR@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:24:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00O01AXUCE@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:03:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSJ00KDTAXTUZ@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:03:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C6C2981A5 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:05:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76D69981A2 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:05:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4F17970D3 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:05:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A9068D399 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 07:59:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP02.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.197]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EF0B8D395 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 07:59:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.5] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id nA3Cx6WF018408 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 07:59:06 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 07:59:05 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] White House senior adviser Susan Crawford resign To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <1414F246-2DAD-4003-8008-676E1E022373@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1076) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1076) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_YM9jvpUQkjqW1EpDVFvUYA)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:subject:date:message-id:to:mime-version:reply-to :list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=gxvwTl8kKYsrUhiCEh2s7qNGFYM=; b=NcKQeEsoNQ584yHO0m6XKUFm88Um JXgCdeoBWpPtBTcKqilxjQGnd0xgLGwbYj5cHrAF9K7wHYVihF2kn2ht1w== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.197 X-Listbox-UUID: AD427218-C878-11DE-B9E3-EF5C3C82A688 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_YM9jvpUQkjqW1EpDVFvUYA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Note this is a conservative site djf http://spectator.org/archives/2009/11/02/for-petes-sake/print White House senior adviser Susan Crawford resigned last week to little fanfare, but some White House insiders say her leaving may reveal growing tensions inside the Obama Administration about just how radical the administration has become in developing policies. Crawford, who was one of the leading voices during the Obama transition period, and then stayed on as Obama's key adviser on technology and communications policy, was credited with putting in place the general policy overlays in those subject areas that guided many of the Administration's hiring and appointments to the Federal Communications Commission and the Commerce Department. She was a strong proponent of Net Neutrality regulations, which would allow the government to regulate the Internet, and in her role sitting on the president's councils on economic policy, she supported strong government interventions and controls of private business. But White House sources say that she ran afoul of senior White House economics adviser Larry Summers, who claimed he and other senior Obama officials were unaware of how radical the draft Net Neutrality regulations were when they were initially internally circulated to Obama administration officials several weeks ago. "All of sudden Larry is getting calls from CEOs, Wall Street folks he talks to, Republicans and Democrats, asking him what the Administration is doing with the policies, and he isn't sure what they're talking about," says one White House aide. "He felt blind-sided, and Susan was one of those people who heard about it." In the end, the proposed regulations were slightly moderated from the original language FCC chairman Julius Genachowski, a Crawford ally, circulated. Crawford resigned, citing the need to return to her tenured position at the University of Michigan law school, but White House sources say that when Crawford signed on to the administration, she told them the university had given her a two-year waiver before requiring a return. "There may have been miscommunication there, but we thought it was two years," says the White House source. Similar waivers -- usually two or three years -- were given to a number of academics who joined the Bush Administration in various positions back in 2001. Crawford's exit comes at a time when some Obama Administration aides, after seeing the fallout from the resignation of Van Jones and the spotlight placed on leftists inside the administration, like Anita Dunn, wonder if it is too late to pull back many of the more radical aides now placed in a number of different cabinet level departments, including the Department of Justice, and the Energy and Education departments, and federal agencies. "They haven't done us any good on any level," says the White House aide. "And now they are just a bunch of targets on our back that we can't shake." ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_YM9jvpUQkjqW1EpDVFvUYA) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE
Note this is a conser= vative site djf

http://specta= tor.org/archives/2009/11/02/for-petes-sake/print
<= span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Georgia, Times,= serif; font-size: 13px; ">

White House senior adviser = Susan Crawford resigned last week to litt= le fanfare, but some White House insiders say her leaving may reveal = growing tensions inside the Obama Administration about just how radic= al the administration has become in developing policies.

Crawford, who was one of the leading voices during the Obama= transition period, and then stayed on as Obama's key adviser on tech= nology and communications policy, was credited with putting in place = the general policy overlays in those subject areas that guided many o= f the Administration's hiring and appointments to the Federal Communi= cations Commission and the Commerce Department. &nb= sp;She was a strong proponent of Net Neutrality regulations, which wo= uld allow the government to regulate the Internet, and in her role si= tting on the president's councils on economic policy, she supported s= trong government interventions and controls of private business.

<= p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 20px; m= argin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom= : 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: = 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: = initial; border-color: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: in= itial; outline-color: initial; font-weight: inherit; font-style: inhe= rit; font-size: 13px; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline;= ">But White House sources say that she ran afoul of senior White Hou= se economics adviser Larry Summers, who= claimed he and other senior Obama officials were unaware of how radi= cal the draft Net Neutrality regulations were when they were initiall= y internally circulated to Obama administration officials several wee= ks ago.  "All of sudden Larry is getting calls= from CEOs, Wall Street folks he talks to, Republicans and Democrats,= asking him what the Administration is doing with the policies, and h= e isn't sure what they're talking about," says one White House aide. = "He felt blind-sided, and Susan was one of those people who heard abo= ut it."  In the end, the proposed regulations = were slightly moderated from the original language FCC chairman Julius Genachowski, a Crawford ally, ci= rculated.

Crawford resigned, citing the need to return = to her tenured position at the University of Michigan law school, but= White House sources say that when Crawford signed on to the administ= ration, she told them the university had given her a two-year waiver = before requiring a return. "There may have been miscommunication ther= e, but we thought it was two years," says the White House source. Sim= ilar waivers -- usually two or three years -- were given to a number = of academics who joined the Bush Administration in various positions = back in 2001.

Crawford's exit comes at a time when some Obama = Administration aides, after seeing the fallout from the resignation o= f Van Jones and the spotlight placed= on leftists inside the administration, like Anit= a Dunn, wonder if it is too late to pull back many of = the more radical aides now placed in a number of different cabinet le= vel departments, including the Department of Justice, and the Energy = and Education departments, and federal agencies. "They haven't done u= s any good on any level," says the White House aide. "And now they ar= e just a bunch of targets on our back that we can't shake."

--Boundary_(ID_YM9jvpUQkjqW1EpDVFvUYA)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Nov 3 13:24:25 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00C01PSGNY@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:24:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00C01PSDNR@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:24:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00O01AZTJG@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:04:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSJ00LBOAZSUR@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:04:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 820CE99637 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:06:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.38]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8133399636 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:06:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E5B899CCA for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:06:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 630E298F91 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:04:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by a-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8398598F8E for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:04:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.5] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id nA3D3X4o016038 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:04:50 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:04:50 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] ICANN: Pay Now, Maybe Get a New Top-Level Domain Later To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <7E2B0C73-D7CB-4FEB-92A5-C09F7DB72CFE@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1076) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1076) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=I5CEqgvlKM8DQAoCQ kO3xP5HH8g=; b=Slt+ngbthzcVyks/h1jtejKtRxc2rzD3uG/TBV642lam6iBnj F4/vdWtRVRbbLvz2MoMvf4GpbMIjiarUV6ffA== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 79E74F5A-C879-11DE-9673-B8E0F65D65B4 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <4AEF1A9A.8040403@cavebear.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Karl Auerbach Date: November 2, 2009 12:44:58 PM EST To: dave@farber.net Cc: ip Subject: Re: [IP] ICANN: Pay Now, Maybe Get a New Top-Level Domain Later Reply-To: karl@cavebear.com On 11/02/2009 03:28 AM, David Farber wrote: > From: Lauren Weinstein > Subject: [ NNSquad ] ICANN: Pay Now, Maybe Get a New Top-Level > Domain Later > ... I feel that generally speaking, the > current focus on more generic/global TLDs is a virtually total waste > of resources... While I agree with Lauren that nearly every one of the huge number of people and organizations that want a TLD of their own could do what they want under a name under an existing TLD. And much disappointment is in store to those those believe that if they can get a TLD that they will somehow be the grantee of the kind of gift that the US and ICANN gave to Verisign. But there is a much larger issue. The issue is this: Who set us up as petty gods to say what the internet shall be or shall not be? There is no doubt that ICANN is itself a very heavy regulatory body. However, even the ICANN policy glacier moves. What Lauren suggests is immobility and redlines part of the internet as off-limits even for completely lawful activities. Freedom requires that we allow people room to do things that we might consider a waste of time and effort, even frivolous. Several years ago I came up with this formulation of what I consider the proper way to evaluate the balance between use and constraint on the net: > First Law of the Internet > > + Every person shall be free to use the Internet in any way that is > privately beneficial without being publicly detrimental. > > - The burden of demonstrating public detriment shall be on those who > wish to prevent the private use. > > - Such a demonstration shall require clear and convincing > evidence > of public detriment. > > - The public detriment must be of such degree and extent as to > justify > the suppression of the private activity. http://www.cavebear.com/cbblog-archives/000059.html --karl-- -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Nov 3 13:24:26 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00C01PSGNY@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:24:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00C01PSDNR@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:24:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00O01B4KVV@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:07:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSJ00N4CB4K3G@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:07:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 618DC99296 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:09:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.38]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FEBE99295 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:09:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C884999AB for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:09:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EBAB8D41E for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:07:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP02.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.197]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55D028D41D for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:07:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.5] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id nA3D7llb018605 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:07:48 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:07:47 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Take a close look at your Verizon Wireless bills... UPDATE To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <00A00024-11BB-40B1-A919-61FC59C08D60@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1076) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1076) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=vPtxLuVX3+UElIOEx wC9qMJXVwE=; b=VzIvUMWB8DdYnLqlwPn1Fadr0IdBqP9PuQkFLxFDxTTcU0Ahk kX11DAeTnsE9RlV/v/gVIksSsyULfbvgJ6WuQ== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.197 X-Listbox-UUID: E34D77EE-C879-11DE-BB79-C6AC5149E451 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <000601ca5c80$c8883760$5998a620$@com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: "Kevin G. Barkes" Date: November 3, 2009 7:25:50 AM EST To: Subject: RE: [IP] Take a close look at your Verizon Wireless bills... UPDATE Mea culpa. In my defense, the change billing information update page makes no reference to modifying "Phone Usage Addresses." And it's not unreasonable to assume that the PPU address will automatically be changed when the billing address is changed, since, as the company notes in its e-mail to me, "the PPU address should be your residential street address or primary business street address." That said, the arrangement actually makes sense. I have three wireless numbers on the account: my phone, my OnStar phone, and my daughter's. While my car and I are in Fayette County, my daughter's in Allegheny County. The email from Verizon customer service: --- In accordance with the Mobile Telecomm Sourcing Act (MTSA), Verizon Wireless must conform to a taxing standard that is based on a customer's primary place of use (PPU address). This is a legal requirement enforced by the Federal law in effect as of August 1, 2002. The PPU address should be your residential street address or primary business street address. Since the PPU address provided to us for your mobile numbers was based in [Allegheny County], PA, these mobile number were billed for [Allegheny County], PA taxes. Your PPU addresses have been updated to reflect your mailing address effective November 2, 2009 and your new tax rates will be reflected on your next statement. In review of your account, I see that your address was updated via "My Verizon." Please be aware that when you change your address online, your PPU address must also be updated. For future reference, to change your address, please sign on to "My Verizon" by visiting www.verizonwireless.com ... Verizon Wireless is unable to issue a retroactive tax credit if you did not update your PPU address when you changed you address online. However, as a one-time courtesy, I have placed a credit of $5.00 on your wireless account. This credit will appear on your next billing statement and will include an additional adjustment for taxes if applicable. Your revised balance of $*** is due on or before November 18, 2009. --- And yes... I went online and changed the PPU address of my daughter's line back to Allegheny County, so I'll be paying the sales tax on her line. Regards, KGB ----- Kevin G. Barkes Email: kgbarkes@yahoo.com KGB Report: http://www.kgbreport.com Commentwear by KGB: http://www.commentwear.com National Temperature Index: http://nationaltemperatureindex.com DCL Dialogue on line: http://www.dcldialogue.com Random Quotations Generator: http://www.goodquotations.com Over 13,000 searchable quotations. -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Nov 3 13:24:27 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00C01PSGNY@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:24:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00C01PSDNR@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:24:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00P01B967D@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:10:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSJ00KIFB95UZ@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:10:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AEB1987CE for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:11:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7747F987CD for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:11:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C8AF96433 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:11:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DDA18D403 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:06:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP02.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.197]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC8DD8D402 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:06:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.5] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id nA3D6DM7018569 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:06:13 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:06:12 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: ICANN: Pay Now, Maybe Get a New Top-Level Domain Later To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1076) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1076) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=9IhA7+0+s2E1XCujn aTsNWHinIk=; b=cpbLu8jyP9emw9UQf+1gqy+gC+kaMG91QvKZ9MF6gk4Kd+jjW wkaPBZd7cOFaEA1vfAJm0OvcOWJ8fqaTstqow== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.197 X-Listbox-UUID: AAF61072-C879-11DE-98D8-984E914025E0 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <20091102190143.59068.qmail@simone.iecc.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: John Levine Date: November 2, 2009 2:01:43 PM EST To: synthesis.law.and.technology@gmail.com Cc: dave@farber.net, lauren@vortex.com Subject: Re: [IP] ICANN: Pay Now, Maybe Get a New Top-Level Domain Later > I find it hard to disagree with much of Lauren's analysis. But if > there is a problem, and if the problem that exists is the reason that > Lauren thinks gTLD expansion is not wise, then why not fix the > problem? Ah, you have it backwards. There's no problem to fix. There are two mostly separate issues with new TLDs. One is TLDs for countries in non-ASCII character sets, known as IDNs. They're much less controversial, and ICANN will soon issue at least a few politically expedient ones like . with the name in Chinese which would be equivalent to .CN. This is the only real TLD problem, it was waiting for technical specs and implementation (not from ICANN), but that is now largely done. The controversial issue is domains with random new names, gTLDs. I agree with my old friend Lauren that this is a tempest in a very expensive teapot, because all of the purported reasons that people want new TLDs have been proven false. Back in the 1990s when this all started, search engines were still obscure experiments, and there was a broad feeling that industry specific TLDs would be used as directories. The failure of .MUSEUM and .AERO shows that DNS directories don't work. There are plenty of directories, but they work by web queries, not DNS queries. Another theory was that restricted TLDs could certify registrants as being genuine members of whatever the restricted field was. The failure of .PRO and .TRAVEL shows this doesn't work either. Domain names aren't a credible way to certify anyone. The last is that the DNS needs "competition", which was and is defined as "people switching from .COM to domains that I sell." There is plenty to dislike about the way that ICANN has managed .COM, but the reality there is that Verisign's technical DNS management has always been fine, and the registration fee, while higher than it should be, is still trivial unless you're a domain speculator. Equally important, the rise of search engines makes specific domain names increasingly unimportant. Google's Chrome, for example, has only one box where you type either a URL or search terms, and I would be surprised if half of its users know the difference. (It is my impression that typosquatting remains profitable only because people type search terms by mistake into a browser's address box.) The only "competition" problem to be solved by new gTLDs is that people want to replace Verisign as the toll collector. If they want to waste $185,000 apiece to find out that it's not going to happen, I have no particular opposition to what is in practice a tax on the foolish and greedy, but disregard any claims that it has anything to do with other than money. R's, John -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Nov 3 13:24:28 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00C01PSGNY@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:24:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00C01PSDNR@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:24:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00001BCTC1@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:12:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSJ00N65BCT3G@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:12:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D9A3975A8 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:14:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A462975A6 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:14:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDFA696D3B for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:14:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B27B98FD8 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:08:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP02.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.197]) by a-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7107998FD5 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:08:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.5] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id nA3D7llc018605 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:08:24 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:08:23 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: Obama DOJ defends warrantless wiretaps! To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <8509BE38-8E1C-41E6-86A4-FB1C66307F63@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1076) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1076) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=eIhSf/7Y3f3GvmcUT 5R6mrCQdpQ=; b=Q33TGnn8iAyAPB92BjKCLyXn0SdZU4kvx1ltta4eqkr5Jo9O+ X7Dxnm8vhW5jXIXaYNtTPyZtwt7A1L4YoU0qw== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.197 X-Listbox-UUID: F8D51518-C879-11DE-B633-912C603E071C X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <20091103082846.GA21379@hserus.net> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Suresh Ramasubramanian Date: November 3, 2009 3:28:46 AM EST To: David Farber Cc: jwarren@well.com Subject: Re: [IP] Obama DOJ defends warrantless wiretaps! Three things. 1. I dont see where they say confidential information is going to be provided to the press, or civil liberties organizations. 2. In this case - the assumption would be that a senior enough DoJ official authorized invoking this privilege. Eric Holder is as senior as anybody in the DoJ gets, so .. 3. I haven't seen where the Obama administration said they'd stop doing this. What they said was that they'd exercise discretion in using a measure that certainly predates Bush by several administrations, across both parties. srs David Farber [03/11/09 02:52 -0500]: > From: Jim Warren > > The Bush administration invoked the privilege numerous times in > lawsuits over various post-9/11 programs, but the Obama > administration recently announced that only a limited number of > senior Justice Department officials would be able to make such > decisions. It also agreed to provide confidential information to the > courts in such cases. > > Under the new approach, an agency trying to keep such information > secret would have to convince the attorney general and a panel of > Justice Department lawyers that its release would compromise > national security. -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Nov 3 13:24:29 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00C01PSGNY@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:24:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00C01PSDNR@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:24:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00501DDK15@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:56:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.83]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSJ0041NDDKS6@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:56:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66023970D6 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:57:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.87]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 618DF970D5 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:57:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DCB697C54 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:57:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2048597516 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:46:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-yx0-f185.google.com (mail-yx0-f185.google.com [209.85.210.185]) by a-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C58497511 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:46:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by yxe15 with SMTP id 15so9114604yxe.9 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 05:46:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.91.171.4 with SMTP id y4mr157634ago.116.1257255970364; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 05:46:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.0.1.7? ([67.165.107.113]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 21sm35890ywh.1.2009.11.03.05.46.07 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 03 Nov 2009 05:46:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:43:39 -0500 From: Dave Farber Subject: [IP] Transparency of the Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement (ACTA) To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7D11) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7D11) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_5RPwWhGW4C2n3XoCL7giIg)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=message-id :from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:date:references:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=yM0m+lQ4T12s3Uqj9 GPMGE6i770=; b=cTXWI2bf4UJ+zN58ZTwRhZBc4a3BwoLGUXCuXpxPJXIqfxE44 +pDZHJnUZ14P/PzXrYyT9emWDWyd094bmqH0g== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:date :references:x-mailer; bh=N2TO3wdTSQ3rY3wB+fTLCLfrUBFaoEmiIFEWgndx+u0=; b=kN1bT+nqwBfUmPWxWky9g901o0il/SGYFMxAhIOeFe1Zv2jEom31wBR6V7bzwWf9Ek kQ7cW/5SQ/r649Cqg0/B2+aec6q2IsbhGEnfMasC8ncVktzKQwKs82VLIosOu2eddwbh AfHsNRS6JLLIDgL21z9ThiPz5cbzoQI3du73Y= X-Listbox-UUID: 453F4CAC-C87F-11DE-8748-E3972127C5AC X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <1257253943.4836.19.camel@Trouble> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :mime-version:subject:date:references:x-mailer; b=nNuKFb85TZd2IZJp3LmWGaDE7zyAseGHnnPXWxl2+3gw/D2oP7qoN1mx2Ejisupcgx tuR+mW38YLB24YfUyc0jvK0mL/AgyrnZfWzAc5kh+Mrc6scEGNXTQS7Vp8YWYLGEZIhy dEH/1YTCaSG/FtfgWapzzAilRrS/QpJXXDXJQ= --Boundary_(ID_5RPwWhGW4C2n3XoCL7giIg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Begin forwarded message: > From: James Love > Date: November 3, 2009 8:12:23 AM EST > To: Dave Farber > Subject: Transparency of the Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement = =20 > (ACTA) > > Dave, > > The following letter to President Obama expresses the views of seve= ral > groups and individuals concerning the transparency of the > Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement (ACTA). > > James Love > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > > November 3, 2009 > > President Barack Obama > The White House > 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW > Washington, DC 20500 > > Dear Mr. President, > > We are writing to express our concerns about the lack of transparen= cy > and openness surrounding the negotiations on a new Anti-Counterfeit= ing > Trade Agreement (ACTA). Despite its name, the ACTA is designed as a > trade agreement that will cover a wide range of intellectual proper= ty > enforcement issues, including norms for both governments and civil > litigation, as well as criminal sanctions. While we agree that the > enforcement of intellectual property rights is very important, it i= s > also a complex area where the =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80=9D to the en= forcement =20 > issues are > often controversial, and it is important to balance a variety of > competing interests, and to ensure that measures to enforce private > intellectual property rights do not undermine civil rights and = =20 > privacy, > or unduly impede innovation. > > Unlike nearly all other multilateral and plurilateral discussions = =20 > about > intellectual property norms, the ACTA negotiations have been held i= n > deep secrecy. This has led to a chorus of criticism, and demands th= at > the ACTA process be opened up, and that documents in ACTA negotiati= ons > be disclosed, as they are routinely in intellectual property > negotiations at the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO)= or > the World Trade Organization (WTO). > > After a year of criticism over the secrecy of this negotiation, the > White House United States Trade Representative (USTR) recently bega= n a > policy of offering some persons access to documents in this =20 > negotiation, > on the condition that they sign a non disclosure agreement (NDA) th= at > prevents any public discussion of the contents of those documents. = The > opportunity to see the ACTA documents under the NDA was offered to = a > large number of business interests, but very few public interest or > consumer groups, and there were no opportunities for academic =20 > experts or > the general public to review the documents. > > USTR officials have indicated that this policy of access by invitat= ion > and NDA fully addresses the legitimate demands for more transparenc= y =20 > of > the negotiation, and it is being considered as a model for the futu= re. > > We are opposed to this approach because it creates a small special = =20 > class > of citizens who have rights superior to the majority of the =20 > population, > and because it gives the government too much discretion in deciding= =20 > who > can monitor and criticize its operations. We have no confidence in = =20 > this > new approach. > > Some of the people who have signed such NDAs are grateful for > the chance to have had special access to some information, but they= =20 > also > feel constrained by the inability to discuss the contents of the > documents, and are confident that nothing they have seen constitute= s > information that in any way would prejudice the national security o= f =20 > the > United States if it were in fact disclosed. > > In our opinion, the ACTA negotiations would not exist without the > support and engagement of the U.S. government, and they are too > important to continue under such questionable practices. > > The only rationale for keeping the proposed ACTA text from the = =20 > public is > to suppress criticism and critical thinking about the norms that ar= e > being proposed. It is Orwellian and an insult to our intelligence t= o > claim that the secrecy of the ACTA text has anything to do with = =20 > national > security concerns, as the term is commonly understood. > > A secret process of arbitrary access, conditioned upon signing > non-disclosure agreements to block public debate, does not enhance > openness and transparency, and does not inspire respect for the nor= ms > that will eventually emerge. > > We ask that when documents such as proposals for ACTA text are > circulated to all governments in the negotiations, and when those > documents are shared with dozens of Washington, DC insiders, they a= lso > be shared with everyone else. > > cc: USTR Ambassador Ron Kirk, Stan McCoy, Tim Reif > Department of Commerce, Secretary Gary Locke, David Kappos, Arti Ra= i, > Susan Wilson > Department of State, Hillary Clinton, Jean Bonilla > White House, Andrew McLaughlin, Susan Crawford, Vivek Kundra, Beth > Noveck, Robynn Sturm, Tom Kalil, Victoria Espinel, Aneesh Chopra > Senators Patrick Leahy, Max Baucus, Al Franken, Sherrod Brown, Bern= ie > Sanders > Representatives Nancy Pelosi, Henry Waxman, Charles Rangel, Sander = =20 > Levin > Department of Justice > > > Sincerely, > > US signatories > > Knowledge Ecology International > David Bollier, Onthecommons.org > Ed Mierzwinski, U.S. PIRG > Public Citizen > Essential Action > Electronic Frontier Foundation > IP Justice > Health Action International (HAI) Global > Lawrence Lessig, Harvard Law School, Cambridge, MA > James Boyle, Professor, Duke Law School (Institution for =20 > Identification > Ellen Miller, Sunlight Foundation > Brook Baker, Health GAP and Northeastern University School of Law > Kevin Outterson, Associate Professor of Law & Co-Director of the = =20 > Health > Law Program, Boston University > Peter Suber, Berkman Center for Internet & Society, Harvard Univers= ity > Laura DeNardis, Executive Director, Yale Information Society Projec= t > Amy Kapczynski, Assistant Professor, UC Berkeley Law School > Purposes Only) > Students for Free Culture > Entertainment Consumers Association > Foundation for a Free Information Infrastructure e.V > Nuria Homedes, Salud y Farmacos > Wouter Tebbens, Free Knowledge Institute > David S. Levine, Assistant Professor, Elon University School of Law > Holly Jarman, Rockefeller College of Public Affairs and Policy, SUN= Y > Albany > Katherine J. Strandburg, Professor of Law, New York University > Garin Fons, Open Michigan Initiative, University of Michigan > Adam Clark Estes, Director of Citizen Journalism, Huffington Post > Investigative Fund > Andrew Norton, Former head of both the US Pirate Party and Pirate = =20 > Party > International > Chris Nuckols, Pirate Party, WA > Josh Casiano, Founder, Southwestern University Students for Free = =20 > Culture > Elizabeth Stark, Fellow and Lecturer, Yale University > Ron Winograd, IL > Andrew Barthel, Yale University > Thomas Gideon, Host and Producer of The Command Line Podcast > Alec Stefansky, Brewer, Uncommon Brewers, Santa Cruz, CA > Michael S Hazen, Actor, Writer, Technologist, Software developer, W= A > Chris Hankin, MD > Mark Schumann, CA > Daniel Gilbert, CA > Mike Spitalieri, Clifton, NJ > William C Waggoner, Bethel, CT > Dan Devine, Software Developer, Cequint Incorporated, Seattle, WA > Meredith Schmitt, Attorney, IL > Bruce Ediger, Denver, CO > Mike Margulies, CA > Phillip Mocek, Seattle, WA > John K. Dahlman, Musician & Photographer, Parkville, MD > Arthur Barstad, Portland, OR > Bryan Colley, MO > Keaton Stagaman, Center for Ecology and Evolutionary Biology, =20 > University > of Oregon, OR > Joshua Zelinsky, MA > Shawn Anderson, DE > Mike Marone, Portland, OR > Steven Brudenell, Software Developer, Auton Lab > Sean Murphy, Portland, OR > Kim Pallister, OR > Christopher Sanders, St. Louis, MO > Aaron Howard, Technology Consultant, OH > Quinn Dombrowski, Chicago, IL > Rebecca Egipto, San Diego, CA > Alex Thorp, Southlake, TX > Ted Wright, MO > Catherine Blanchard, Princeton, NJ > Jaclyn Duehr, IL > Sam Blanchard, Princeton, NJ > Sean Moriva, WI > Pete Perfetti, Pittsburgh, PA > Michael Hyde, NY > Gabriel J. Michael, George Washington University > Chris Heightchew, IL > John and Tama Davies, Lawrence, KS > Kevin J. Burgam, Norton Shores, MI > Tim Heatwole, Baltimore, MD > William Carter, NC > Brian Rowe, Freedom for IP > Jared Gray > Stephen Ferrari, Boston, MA > William G Mason, Cedar Rapids, IA > Eric Brown, PA > Randy Bush, Computer Scientist, Bainbridge Island, WA > Aaron Larson, Dayton, OH > Howard Bales, Portland, OR > James E. Van Cleave, Army signal corps veteran and 22 year broadcas= t > engineer Great Falls, MT > Rob Toyias, CA > Clyde Wright, Sunnyvale, CA > Dave Brunker > Ted Snyder, Madison, WI > Daniel Croft, Security Consultant, Portland, OR > Michael Hasse, WA > Stephen Hill, Lawrence, KS > Doug Dingus, Forest Grove, OR > Steve Chambers, Austin, TX > Richard Harding, Tecnologist, Beverly, MA > Nate Hitchcock, Artist and Curator, IL > David Quist, Albany, NY > Bryan Faubus, NC > Mitchell Wagner, IN > Charles G. Waugh, Professional Artist, Portland, OR > Bobby Martin, President NavTools.com, Arlington, TX > Justin Talbot, Graduate student, Rochester Institute of Technology > Owen Pierce, MI > Francesco Pierfederici, MA > Greg Bryant, KS > Carolyn Sortor, Dallas, TX > James O'Keefe, MA > Bruce Spragg, Columbus, Ohio > Cushing Whitney, President, BitLathe LLC > Jonathan Lipkin, Professor of Digital Media, Ramapo College of New > Jersey > Christopher Hord, Henderson, NV > Christopher Hopper, TX > Ezekiel Weeks, Fort Collins, CO > Nick Dynice, Long Beach, CA > Larry Campbell, Brookline, MA > Bryon Cannon, Publisher, Tessella Books, KS > Christian Yetter, Writer, Manhattan, KS > Tyler Good, Student in game design and development, FL > Erin Meehan, WA > James Adkins, AZ > David Schuldt, PA > Jason Cerundolo, Lexington, MA > Jesse Latimer, CA > Brett Battjer, Washington, DC > Megan S. Rorie, Dallas, TX > Michael Donohoe, Software Developer, Brooklyn, NY > David Serafino, Graduate Student, University of Virginia > Chase Hoffman, Information Technology Professional, Austin, TX > Josh McFarland, Hot Springs, AR > John Ramsey, Web Developer and Musician > Erin A. Kinser, Columbus, OH > Doug Flint, Denver, CO > Sean Murphy, Portland, OR > Andrew Slayman, Photographer, Denver, CO > Jason Gantenberg, Naperville, IL > Aaron Turner, Software Developer, San Jose, CA > Bryan Oltman, Olathe, KS > Hyman Rosen, New York, NY > RJ Herrick, CT > Andrew Neely, Omaha, NE > Ben Seigel, Madison, WI > Alan Wexelblat, Writer and Photographer, MA > Alex Kemmler, Chicago, IL > Christina Rogers, MO > Craig Buchek, St. Louis, MO > Bill Seitz, IL > John Irvine, MO > Sam Blanchard, Princeton, NJ > Gregory Caruso, Boston, MA > Jim McLuckie, Musician and Filmmaker, Ferndale, MI > Balfour S. Smith, Durham, NC > Steve Helm, Blacksburg, VA > Mike Linksvayer, Oakland, CA > John Drop, Professor, GA > Michael Ahlers, Arlington, VA > Adam Gravois, Austin, TX > Steve Dirsa, St. Louis, MO > Matt Scoville, Salt Lake City, UT > Beta Bisrat, Web Developer, Washington DC > Lalita Aisola, High School Teacher, San Jose, CA > Jeremy Forbing, San Francisco, CA > Aaron M. Hutzel, Canonsburg, PA > Jason Cunningham > Nathaniel Luders, San Lorenzo, CA > Barton Christopher Junior, VA > Brenda Dayne, OR > Chris Gaeden, Santa Rosa, CA > Dan McDougall, FL > Ben Broderick Phillips, MA > Curtis Carmony, NM > Sonya Dunne > Bruce Lerner, Systems Engineer, CT > Bradford A. Patrick, Tampa, Florida > Nathanael Nerode, Software Programmer & Investment Advisor, Ithaca,= NY > Alberto Gait=C3=A1n, Arlington, VA > Dylan Cascio > Pratik Chhetri, Pre-med student, Central Michigan University-CMU > Percy Hatcherson, Chicago, IL > Ron Goldman, Los Altos, CA > Jesse Williams > Bruce Ryan, Seattle WA > > International signatories > > Health Action International (HAI) Europe > La Quadrature du Net, France > Egyptian Initiative for Personal Rights > Michael Geist, Canada Research Chair in Internet and E-commerce Law= , > University of Ottawa > Cory Doctorow, Fellow, Electronic Frontier Foundation and bestselli= ng > novelist > Francisco Viegas Neves da Silva, Brazilian Interdisciplinary AIDS > Association (ABIA), Working Group on Intellectual Property (GTPI/= =20 > REBRIP) > Ellen 't Hoen, Lawyer, Switzerland > Pedro Paranagu=C3=A1, Assistant-Professor at FGV School of Law-Rio = and > Doctorate candidate at Duke University School of Law > Karolina Tuomisto, Medical Student, Finland > Tako Taal, Berlin, Germany > Jamie King, Film Director, Berlin Germany > Felix Stalder, Net Time > Jo=C3=A3o S=C3=A9rgio da Silva Costa, Informatics Technician/Univer= tsity Stude=20 > nt, > Brazil > Tiago Rangel C=C3=B4rtes, Student, Brazil > Jochen Ahleff, Software Developer, Munich, Germany > David Guy, Brantford, ON, Canada > Xavi Drudis Ferran, Software Developer, Catalonia > Tong Yew Sum, Malaysia > > --=20 > James Love, Director, Knowledge Ecology International > http://www.keionline.org | mailto:james.love at keionline.org > Wk: +1.202.332.2670 | US Mobile +1.202.361.3040 | Geneva Mobile +41= .76.413.6584 > > ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_5RPwWhGW4C2n3XoCL7giIg) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE




Begin= forwarded message:

Fr= om: James Love <ja= mes.love@keionline.org>
Date: November 3, 2009 8:12:= 23 AM EST
To: Dave Farber <dave@farber.net>
Subject: Transparency of t= he Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement (ACTA)

Dave,
The following letter to President Obama expr= esses the views of several
groups and individuals con= cerning the transparency of the
Anti-Counterfeiting T= rade Agreement (ACTA).   

= James Love

-------- Forwarded Messag= e --------

November 3, 2009
President Barack Obama
The W= hite House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20500

Dear Mr. Pres= ident,

We are writing to express our= concerns about the lack of transparency
and openness= surrounding the negotiations on a new Anti-Counterfeiting
= Trade Agreement (ACTA). Despite its name, the ACTA is designed = as a
trade agreement that will cover a wide range of = intellectual property
enforcement issues, including n= orms for both governments and civil
litigation, as we= ll as criminal sanctions. While we agree that the
enf= orcement of intellectual property rights is very important, it is
also a complex area where the =E2=80=9Csolutions=E2=80= =9D to the enforcement issues are
often controversial= , and it is important to balance a variety of
competi= ng interests, and to ensure that measures to enforce privateintellectual property rights do not undermine civil rights an= d privacy,
or unduly impede innovation.

Unlike nearly all other multilateral and plurilat= eral discussions about
intellectual property norms, t= he ACTA negotiations have been held in
deep secrecy. = This has led to a chorus of criticism, and demands that
the ACTA process be opened up, and that documents in ACTA negotiat= ions
be disclosed, as they are routinely in intellect= ual property
negotiations at the World Intellectual P= roperty Organization (WIPO) or
the World Trade Organi= zation (WTO).

After a year of critic= ism over the secrecy of this negotiation, the
White H= ouse United States Trade Representative (USTR) recently began a
policy of offering some persons access to documents in thi= s negotiation,
on the condition that they sign a non = disclosure agreement (NDA) that
prevents any public d= iscussion of the contents of those documents. The
opp= ortunity to see the ACTA documents under the NDA was offered to a
large number of business interests, but very few public = interest or
consumer groups, and there were no opport= unities for academic experts or
the general public to= review the documents.

USTR official= s have indicated that this policy of access by invitation
<= span>and NDA fully addresses the legitimate demands for more transpar= ency of
the negotiation, and it is being considered a= s a model for the future.

We are opp= osed to this approach because it creates a small special class=
of citizens who have rights superior to the majority of the= population,
and because it gives the government too = much discretion in deciding who
can monitor and criti= cize its operations. We have no confidence in this
ne= w approach.

Some of the people who h= ave signed such NDAs are grateful for
the chance to h= ave had special access to some information, but they also
<= span>feel constrained by the inability to discuss the contents of the=
documents, and are confident that nothing they have = seen constitutes
information that in any way would pr= ejudice the national security of the
United States if= it were in fact disclosed.

In our o= pinion, the ACTA negotiations would not exist without the
<= span>support and engagement of the U.S. government, and they are too<= /span>
important to continue under such questionable practic= es.

The only rationale for keeping t= he proposed ACTA text from the public is
to suppress = criticism and critical thinking about the norms that are
being proposed. It is Orwellian and an insult to our intelligence= to
claim that the secrecy of the ACTA text has anyth= ing to do with national
security concerns, as the ter= m is commonly understood.

A secret p= rocess of arbitrary access, conditioned upon signing
= non-disclosure agreements to block public debate, does not enhance
openness and transparency, and does not inspire respect= for the norms
that will eventually emerge.
We ask that when documents such as proposals = for ACTA text are
circulated to all governments in th= e negotiations, and when those
documents are shared w= ith dozens of Washington, DC insiders, they also
be s= hared with everyone else.

cc: USTR A= mbassador Ron Kirk, Stan McCoy, Tim Reif
Department o= f Commerce, Secretary Gary Locke, David Kappos, Arti Rai,
<= span>Susan Wilson
Department of State, Hillary Clinto= n, Jean Bonilla
White House, Andrew McLaughlin, Susan= Crawford, Vivek Kundra, Beth
Noveck, Robynn Sturm, T= om Kalil, Victoria Espinel, Aneesh Chopra
Senators Pa= trick Leahy, Max Baucus, Al Franken, Sherrod Brown, Bernie
= Sanders
Representatives Nancy Pelosi, Henry Wax= man, Charles Rangel, Sander Levin
Department of Justi= ce


Sincerely,

US signatories
Knowledge Ecology International
David Bollier,= Onthecommons.org
Ed Mierzwinski, U.S. PIR= G
Public Citizen
Essential Action
Electronic Frontier Foundation
IP Justic= e
Health Action International (HAI) Global
= Lawrence Lessig, Harvard Law School, Cambridge, MA
James Boyle, Professor, Duke Law School (Institution for Identifi= cation
Ellen Miller, Sunlight Foundation
<= span>Brook Baker, Health GAP and Northeastern University School of La= w
Kevin Outterson, Associate Professor of Law & C= o-Director of the Health
Law Program, Boston Universi= ty
Peter Suber, Berkman Center for Internet & Soc= iety, Harvard University
Laura DeNardis, Executive Di= rector, Yale Information Society Project
Amy Kapczyns= ki, Assistant Professor, UC Berkeley Law School
Purpo= ses Only)
Students for Free Culture
E= ntertainment Consumers Association
Foundation for a F= ree Information Infrastructure e.V
Nuria Homedes, Sal= ud y Farmacos
Wouter Tebbens, Free Knowledge Institut= e
David S. Levine, Assistant Professor, Elon Universi= ty School of Law
Holly Jarman, Rockefeller College of= Public Affairs and Policy, SUNY
Albany
Katherine J. Strandburg, Professor of Law, New York University
Garin Fons, Open Michigan Initiative, University of Mich= igan
Adam Clark Estes, Director of Citizen Journalism= , Huffington Post
Investigative Fund
= Andrew Norton, Former head of both the US Pirate Party and Pirate Par= ty
International
Chris Nuckols, Pirat= e Party, WA
Josh Casiano, Founder, Southwestern Unive= rsity Students for Free Culture
Elizabeth Stark, Fell= ow and Lecturer, Yale University
Ron Winograd, IL
Andrew Barthel, Yale University
Thomas G= ideon, Host and Producer of The Command Line Podcast
= Alec Stefansky, Brewer, Uncommon Brewers, Santa Cruz, CA
Michael S Hazen, Actor, Writer, Technologist, Software developer,= WA
Chris Hankin, MD
Mark Schumann, C= A
Daniel Gilbert, CA
Mike Spitalieri,= Clifton, NJ
William C Waggoner, Bethel, CTDan Devine, Software Developer, Cequint Incorporated, Seattle,= WA
Meredith Schmitt, Attorney, IL
Br= uce Ediger, Denver, CO
Mike Margulies, CA
<= span>Phillip Mocek, Seattle, WA
John K. Dahlman, Musi= cian & Photographer, Parkville, MD
Arthur Barstad= , Portland, OR
Bryan Colley, MO
Keato= n Stagaman, Center for Ecology and Evolutionary Biology, University
of Oregon, OR
Joshua Zelinsky, MA
Shawn Anderson, DE
Mike Marone, Portland,= OR
Steven Brudenell, Software Developer, Auton Lab
Sean Murphy, Portland, OR
Kim Palliste= r, OR
Christopher Sanders, St. Louis, MO
Aaron Howard, Technology Consultant, OH
Quinn Dom= browski, Chicago, IL
Rebecca Egipto, San Diego, CA
Alex Thorp, Southlake, TX
Ted Wright, M= O
Catherine Blanchard, Princeton, NJ
= Jaclyn Duehr, IL
Sam Blanchard, Princeton, NJ<= br>Sean Moriva, WI
Pete Perfetti, Pittsburgh, P= A
Michael Hyde, NY
Gabriel J. Michael= , George Washington University
Chris Heightchew, IL
John and Tama Davies, Lawrence, KS
Kev= in J. Burgam, Norton Shores, MI
Tim Heatwole, Baltimo= re, MD
William Carter, NC
Brian Rowe,= Freedom for IP
Jared Gray
Stephen Fe= rrari, Boston, MA
William G Mason, Cedar Rapids, IA
Eric Brown, PA
Randy Bush, Computer Sc= ientist, Bainbridge Island, WA
Aaron Larson, Dayton, = OH
Howard Bales, Portland, OR
James E= . Van Cleave, Army signal corps veteran and 22 year broadcast<= br>engineer Great Falls, MT
Rob Toyias, CA
Clyde Wright, Sunnyvale, CA
Dave Brunker<= /span>
Ted Snyder, Madison, WI
Daniel Croft,= Security Consultant, Portland, OR
Michael Hasse, WA<= /span>
Stephen Hill, Lawrence, KS
Doug Dingu= s, Forest Grove, OR
Steve Chambers, Austin, TX=
Richard Harding, Tecnologist, Beverly, MA
N= ate Hitchcock, Artist and Curator, IL
David Quist, Al= bany, NY
Bryan Faubus, NC
Mitchell Wa= gner, IN
Charles G. Waugh, Professional Artist, Portl= and, OR
Bobby Martin, President NavTools.com, Arlington, TX
Justin Tal= bot, Graduate student, Rochester Institute of Technology
Owen Pierce, MI
Francesco Pierfederici, MA=
Greg Bryant, KS
Carolyn Sortor, Dallas, TX<= /span>
James O'Keefe, MA
Bruce Spragg, Colum= bus, Ohio
Cushing Whitney, President, BitLathe LLC
Jonathan Lipkin, Professor of Digital Media, Ramapo Col= lege of New
Jersey
Christopher Hord, = Henderson, NV
Christopher Hopper, TX
= Ezekiel Weeks, Fort Collins, CO
Nick Dynice, Long Bea= ch, CA
Larry Campbell, Brookline, MA
= Bryon Cannon, Publisher, Tessella Books, KS
Christian= Yetter, Writer, Manhattan, KS
Tyler Good, Student in= game design and development, FL
Erin Meehan, WA
James Adkins, AZ
David Schuldt, PA=
Jason Cerundolo, Lexington, MA
Jesse Latime= r, CA
Brett Battjer, Washington, DC
M= egan S. Rorie, Dallas, TX
Michael Donohoe, Software D= eveloper, Brooklyn, NY
David Serafino, Graduate Stude= nt, University of Virginia
Chase Hoffman, Information= Technology Professional, Austin, TX
Josh McFarland, = Hot Springs, AR
John Ramsey, Web Developer and Musici= an
Erin A. Kinser, Columbus, OH
Doug = Flint, Denver, CO
Sean Murphy, Portland, ORAndrew Slayman, Photographer, Denver, CO
Jason= Gantenberg, Naperville, IL
Aaron Turner, Software De= veloper, San Jose, CA
Bryan Oltman, Olathe, KS=
Hyman Rosen, New York, NY
RJ Herrick, CT
Andrew Neely, Omaha, NE
Ben Seigel, Mad= ison, WI
Alan Wexelblat, Writer and Photographer, MA<= /span>
Alex Kemmler, Chicago, IL
Christina R= ogers, MO
Craig Buchek, St. Louis, MO
Bill Seitz, IL
John Irvine, MO
Sam B= lanchard, Princeton, NJ
Gregory Caruso, Boston, MA
Jim McLuckie, Musician and Filmmaker, Ferndale, MI
Balfour S. Smith, Durham, NC
Steve Helm, = Blacksburg, VA
Mike Linksvayer, Oakland, CAJohn Drop, Professor, GA
Michael Ahlers, Arlin= gton, VA
Adam Gravois, Austin, TX
Ste= ve Dirsa, St. Louis, MO
Matt Scoville, Salt Lake City= , UT
Beta Bisrat, Web Developer, Washington DC=
Lalita Aisola, High School Teacher, San Jose, CA
= Jeremy Forbing, San Francisco, CA
Aaron M. Hutz= el, Canonsburg, PA
Jason Cunningham
N= athaniel Luders, San Lorenzo, CA
Barton Christopher J= unior, VA
Brenda Dayne, OR
Chris Gaed= en, Santa Rosa, CA
Dan McDougall, FL
= Ben Broderick Phillips, MA
Curtis Carmony, NM<= br>Sonya Dunne
Bruce Lerner, Systems Engineer, = CT
Bradford A. Patrick, Tampa, Florida
Nathanael Nerode, Software Programmer & Investment Advisor, Ith= aca, NY
Alberto Gait=C3=A1n, Arlington, VA
= Dylan Cascio
Pratik Chhetri, Pre-med student, C= entral Michigan University-CMU
Percy Hatcherson, Chic= ago, IL
Ron Goldman, Los Altos, CA
Je= sse Williams
Bruce Ryan, Seattle WA
<= /span>
International signatories

= Health Action International (HAI) Europe
La Qua= drature du Net, France
Egyptian Initiative for Person= al Rights
Michael Geist, Canada Research Chair in Int= ernet and E-commerce Law,
University of Ottawa=
Cory Doctorow, Fellow, Electronic Frontier Foundation and b= estselling
novelist
Francisco Viegas = Neves da Silva, Brazilian Interdisciplinary AIDS
Asso= ciation (ABIA), Working Group on Intellectual Property (GTPI/REBRIP)<= /span>
Ellen 't Hoen, Lawyer, Switzerland
Pe= dro Paranagu=C3=A1, Assistant-Professor at FGV School of Law-Rio and<= /span>
Doctorate candidate at Duke University School of Law<= /span>
Karolina Tuomisto, Medical Student, FinlandTako Taal, Berlin, Germany
Jamie King, Film Di= rector, Berlin Germany
Felix Stalder, Net Time=
Jo=C3=A3o S=C3=A9rgio da Silva Costa, Informatics Technicia= n/Univertsity Student,
Brazil
Tiago R= angel C=C3=B4rtes, Student, Brazil
Jochen Ahleff, Sof= tware Developer, Munich, Germany
David Guy, Brantford= , ON, Canada
Xavi Drudis Ferran, Software Developer,= Catalonia
Tong Yew Sum, Malaysia

--
James Love, Director, Knowledge Eco= logy International
http://www.keionline.org | mailto:james.love at keionline.org=
Wk: +1.202.332.2670 | US Mobile +1.202.361.3040 = | Geneva Mobile +41.76.413.6584


--Boundary_(ID_5RPwWhGW4C2n3XoCL7giIg)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Nov 3 13:24:31 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00C01PSGNY@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:24:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00C01PSDNR@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:24:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00F01HGEWS@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 10:24:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSJ00E9XHGEG5@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 10:24:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CAE7994A1 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 10:25:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A2689949F for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 10:25:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15CEA994DF for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 10:25:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C76078BCAE for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 10:23:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP02.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.197]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4630E8BCAD for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 10:23:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.9] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id nA3FNStX022062 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 10:23:28 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 10:23:28 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: ICANN: Pay Now, Maybe Get a New Top-Level Domain Later To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <3B4B9980-2910-4AD5-B636-1ADD377BCEED@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1076) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1076) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_Xy5D0aS+kaUA1wPXQv4tBQ)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:subject:date:references:to:message-id:mime-version :reply-to:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s= launch; bh=uSK48FetRw9MUiGbZoESynMGbQw=; b=eKZ63wL2fimJmWTdZDYup V8Dlg7p7Op1kFJvtzn5H7mAqp7PYHgbg2J228D+raTihEwCUVl1PueSvnJh+ZDFd w== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.197 X-Listbox-UUID: D7911204-C88C-11DE-B729-F8533D680C34 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <4AF0387D.5010606@reed.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_Xy5D0aS+kaUA1wPXQv4tBQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Begin forwarded message: From: "David P. Reed" Date: November 3, 2009 9:04:45 AM EST To: dave@farber.net Cc: ip Subject: Re: [IP] Re: ICANN: Pay Now, Maybe Get a New Top-Level Domain Later Wait a minute. I *want* ".reed". Just like I wanted "reed.com". Not to get rich by trading it or treating it as a moneymaking "beachfront property". I just want it, if I can have it. Admittedly there are people who think I've been nuts to turn down offers to purchase it that have been pretty substantial (and also offers to purchase it by people who appear to want it because they have the same last name I do). I say this because the idea that domain naming should be viewed as a mere "marketplace" is interesting. Dave Farber probably knows about 10 companies who have expressed interest in a DNS name that means "marker" or "pen" or "pencil" auf Deutsch. I bet Dave would like a TLD called ".farber". So this is not a tempest in a teapot. It's real... it just is one of those things that people who have "POWER" (all caps) want to be able to force on everybody. In this case, the Intellectual Property Bar. And they'll litigate to get their way, and buy politicians and so forth to get their way. Because apparently "trademarks" are more important than my wish for a little expressivity. Ultimately, it's the same reason I can't have waiters sing "Happy Birthday" to my children in restaurants. I have no power, and the big "machers" do. On 11/03/2009 08:06 AM, David Farber wrote: > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: John Levine > Date: November 2, 2009 2:01:43 PM EST > To: synthesis.law.and.technology@gmail.com > Cc: dave@farber.net, lauren@vortex.com > Subject: Re: [IP] ICANN: Pay Now, Maybe Get a New Top-Level Domain > Later > >> I find it hard to disagree with much of Lauren's analysis. But if >> there is a problem, and if the problem that exists is the reason that >> Lauren thinks gTLD expansion is not wise, then why not fix the >> problem? > > Ah, you have it backwards. There's no problem to fix. > > There are two mostly separate issues with new TLDs. One is TLDs for > countries in non-ASCII character sets, known as IDNs. They're much > less controversial, and ICANN will soon issue at least a few > politically expedient ones like . with the name in Chinese > which would be equivalent to .CN. This is the only real TLD problem, > it was waiting for technical specs and implementation (not from > ICANN), but that is now largely done. > > The controversial issue is domains with random new names, gTLDs. I > agree with my old friend Lauren that this is a tempest in a very > expensive teapot, because all of the purported reasons that people > want new TLDs have been proven false. > > Back in the 1990s when this all started, search engines were still > obscure experiments, and there was a broad feeling that industry > specific TLDs would be used as directories. The failure of .MUSEUM > and .AERO shows that DNS directories don't work. There are plenty of > directories, but they work by web queries, not DNS queries. > > Another theory was that restricted TLDs could certify registrants as > being genuine members of whatever the restricted field was. The > failure of .PRO and .TRAVEL shows this doesn't work either. Domain > names aren't a credible way to certify anyone. > > The last is that the DNS needs "competition", which was and is defined > as "people switching from .COM to domains that I sell." There is > plenty to dislike about the way that ICANN has managed .COM, but the > reality there is that Verisign's technical DNS management has always > been fine, and the registration fee, while higher than it should be, > is still trivial unless you're a domain speculator. > > Equally important, the rise of search engines makes specific domain > names increasingly unimportant. Google's Chrome, for example, has > only one box where you type either a URL or search terms, and I would > be surprised if half of its users know the difference. (It is my > impression that typosquatting remains profitable only because people > type search terms by mistake into a browser's address box.) > > The only "competition" problem to be solved by new gTLDs is that > people want to replace Verisign as the toll collector. If they want > to waste $185,000 apiece to find out that it's not going to happen, I > have no particular opposition to what is in practice a tax on the > foolish and greedy, but disregard any claims that it has anything to > do with other than money. > > R's, > John > > > > > ------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_Xy5D0aS+kaUA1wPXQv4tBQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

<= div>Begin forwarded message:

From: "David P. Reed" <= dpreed@reed.com>
=
Date: November 3, 2009 9:= 04:45 AM EST
To:= dave@farber.net
Subject: Re: [IP] Re: ICANN: = Pay Now, Maybe Get a New Top-Level Domain Later
<= br>
Wait a minute.  = ; I *want* ".reed".  Just like I wanted "reed.c= om".  Not to get rich by trading it or treating it as a moneymaking "beachfront property".   I = just want it, if I can have it.  Admittedly there are people who think I'v= e been nuts to turn down offers to purchase it that have been pretty substantial (and also offers to purchase it by people who appear to want it because they have the same last name I do).

I say this because the idea that domain naming should be viewed as a mere "marketplace" is interesting.   Dave Farber probably k= nows about 10 companies who have expressed interest in a DNS name that means "marker" or "pen" or "pencil" auf Deutsch.  I bet Dave would lik= e a TLD called ".farber".

So this is not a tempest in a teapot.   It's real... it jus= t is one of those things that people who have "POWER" (all caps) want to be able = to force on everybody.  In this case, the Intellectual Property Bar= .   And they'll litigate to get their way, and buy politicians and so forth t= o get their way.  Because apparently "trademarks" are more importa= nt than my wish for a little expressivity.

Ultimately, it's the same reason I can't have waiters sing "Happy Birthday" to my children in restaurants.   I have no power,= and the big "machers" do.


On 11/03/2009 08:06 AM, David Farber wrote:


Begin forwarded message:

=46rom: John Levine <johnl@iecc.com>
Date: November 2, 2009 2:01:43 PM EST
To: synthesis.law.and.technology@gmail.com
Cc: dave@farber.net, lauren@vortex.com
Subject: Re: [IP] ICANN: Pay Now, Maybe Get a New Top-Level Domain Later

I find it hard to disagree with much of Lauren's analysis. But if
there is a problem, and if the problem that exists is the reason that
Lauren thinks gTLD expansion is not wise, then why not fix the
problem?

Ah, you have it backwards.  There's no problem to fix.

There are two mostly separate issues with new TLDs.  One is TLDs= for
countries in non-ASCII character sets, known as IDNs.  They're m= uch
less controversial, and ICANN will soon issue at least a few
politically expedient ones like .<china> with the name in Chine= se
which would be equivalent to .CN.  This is the only real TLD pro= blem,
it was waiting for technical specs and implementation (not from
ICANN), but that is now largely done.

The controversial issue is domains with random new names, gTLDs. = ; I
agree with my old friend Lauren that this is a tempest in a very
expensive teapot, because all of the purported reasons that people
want new TLDs have been proven false.

Back in the 1990s when this all started, search engines were still
obscure experiments, and there was a broad feeling that industry
specific TLDs would be used as directories.  The failure of .MUS= EUM
and .AERO shows that DNS directories don't work.  There are plen= ty of
directories, but they work by web queries, not DNS queries.

Another theory was that restricted TLDs could certify registrants as
being genuine members of whatever the restricted field was.  The
failure of .PRO and .TRAVEL shows this doesn't work either.  Dom= ain
names aren't a credible way to certify anyone.

The last is that the DNS needs "competition", which was and is define= d
as "people switching from .COM to domains that I sell."  There i= s
plenty to dislike about the way that ICANN has managed .COM, but the
reality there is that Verisign's technical DNS management has always
been fine, and the registration fee, while higher than it should be,
is still trivial unless you're a domain speculator.

Equally important, the rise of search engines makes specific domain
names increasingly unimportant.  Google's Chrome, for example, h= as
only one box where you type either a URL or search terms, and I would
be surprised if half of its users know the difference.  (It is m= y
impression that typosquatting remains profitable only because people
type search terms by mistake into a browser's address box.)

The only "competition" problem to be solved by new gTLDs is that
people want to replace Verisign as the toll collector.  If they = want
to waste $185,000 apiece to find out that it's not going to happen, I
have no particular opposition to what is in practice a tax on the
foolish and greedy, but disregard any claims that it has anything to
do with other than money.

R's,
John




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--Boundary_(ID_Xy5D0aS+kaUA1wPXQv4tBQ)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Nov 3 13:24:32 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00C01PSGNY@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:24:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00C01PSDNR@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:24:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00801NSRA1@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 12:41:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSJ0059LNSQSZ@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 12:41:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47386982C0 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 12:42:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41C7E982BF for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 12:42:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3252697EDB for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 12:42:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E872A8E582 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 12:37:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-yx0-f185.google.com (mail-yx0-f185.google.com [209.85.210.185]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C75E78E581 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 12:37:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by yxe15 with SMTP id 15so9423191yxe.9 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 09:37:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.101.170.11 with SMTP id x11mr583995ano.109.1257269843155; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 09:37:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.0.1.7? ([67.165.107.113]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 8sm125706yxg.6.2009.11.03.09.37.20 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 03 Nov 2009 09:37:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 12:36:18 -0500 From: Dave Farber Subject: [IP] Purpose vs discovery and the Internet as a dynamic To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <4EAF59BD-683D-4372-8BA1-42164A58A252@me.com> MIME-version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7D11) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7D11) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_LC3jh3VWsj6KhiEYLCysUg)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=message-id :from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:date:references:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=aQ374cSyAhJ2O9GtI C2QVQYFB5A=; b=X7Q7AI9NYSzof9yZZ40YCETB596C0KURBngchikb/qyu0TkM8 gIQZldxfcj2y2SAR77lSitS7S9LbhgRdm8X1w== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:mime-version :subject:date:references; bh=rB74wGDfYL23nSTXXceZ503xa0oAjQkhQ42JeOJ8APY=; b=vw0G7CPn5Xccs9KQON1FTLRCD6AaXscFCXy4ntv5rvn8QYoGbj2pfiHovabScCxtqx pihlonFTJy4Q0JGVfT3gV7UiaNluUfZczrLLmV71oVYbGc6LNbhrTgCSr+IzJDEmUFVd yYjvGkjbtvvrY02vJpwkCGDCeJ8/wEo1+2b7g= X-Listbox-UUID: 8C9F72B4-C89F-11DE-A15E-88B92920BD11 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <005301ca5cab$b8a11d50$29e357f0$@frankston.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :x-mailer:mime-version:subject:date:references; b=OTAksvgZTqq7nm/UaMkbgeBTh9U0f0rxAXTXRbDStrFdzPpIi84IMlcEbuv6IRYM41 YrKCz0bEs6z4X8iZ9LRUzBbZFp96DR/aQ8ypasKSDiKljYuJgdgpoqVrg81f7BZdTI6B CqGEdwjmOEIrLP4Ntyydth7rMklRCdZMchK/w= --Boundary_(ID_LC3jh3VWsj6KhiEYLCysUg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Begin forwarded message: > From: Bob Frankston > Date: November 3, 2009 12:33:11 PM EST > To: "Prof. David J. J Farber" , nnsquad@nnsquad.or= g > Subject: Purpose vs discovery and the Internet as a dynamic > > I=E2=80=99m writing this in response to the myriad discussions abou= t how to =20 > make sure that the Internet continues to =E2=80=9Cwork=E2=80=9D des= pite P2P or =20 > whatever the current threat seems to be. Behind much of the discuss= i=20 > on is the presumption that the Internet has a purpose in the sense = o=20 > f making some applications like video games and VoIP work. Yesterda= y=20 > we feared modems, today we fear P2P. > > > > This confusion arises from the success of the Internet. People see = =20 > what works and assume that the purpose of the Internet is to suppor= t =20 > those applications. The fact applications that require low latency = =20 > (delays) and low jitter (variability) work in some cases means that= =20 > we must now promise to make sure they work everywhere. The very = =20 > innovation that made the application work so well at such a low cos= t =20 > is now seen as a threat to the new status quo. > > > > We =E2=80=9Cprove=E2=80=9D this by example =E2=80=93 but that=E2= =80=99s just the opposite of =20 > science. Science is about testing ideas rather than looking for con= f=20 > irmation of our presumptions. We then add more confusion by buildin= g=20 > in the mechanisms we presume are necessary thus which, of course, = =E2=80=9C=20 > proves=E2=80=9D that they are the reason the applications work. > > > > In fact the applications started to =E2=80=9Cjust work=E2=80=9D bec= ause the =20 > mechanisms are not built in =E2=80=93 it=E2=80=99s this seeming par= adox that =20 > keeps us arguing in circles. As I explain in http://frankston.com/?= n=3DInternetDynamic=20 > VoIP did not work in the 1980=E2=80=99s. Or, to be more precise, i= t =20 > might=E2=80=99ve indeed worked over local networks but you couldn= =E2=80=99t =20 > presume that it would work between LANs, especially when dialup con= n=20 > ections were involved. Instead we used the Internet for more tolera= n=20 > t applications such as email and file transfers. > > > > If we had to make voice work we could=E2=80=99ve built it into the = network b=20 > y being dependent upon the network giving us a dedicated path. This= =20 > is the basic design choice made in SS7. Both the Internet and SS7 w= e=20 > re done by CS people but with different assumptions. SS7 achieved i= t=20 > s goal and supporting high quality (56KB in the US) voice but at th= e=20 > price of being dependent upon high priced gear (as per 1970=E2= =80=99s price=20 > s). > > > > By eschewing dependence on such gear the Internet (as a thing) coul= d=20 > n=E2=80=99t make such promises. Instead we had to find out what wor= ked and g=20 > o with it. Email worked because it was very tolerant and typical me= s=20 > sages were a few hundred characters with people flagging messages o= v=20 > er a thousand words or so as large. > > > > Experience suggested that applications such as voice and video coul= d=20 > n=E2=80=99t work without special help because they were too sensiti= ve to lat=20 > ency and jitter. > > > > Then the Web happened. The web itself was initially about text so = =20 > the latency and jitter weren=E2=80=99t issues but it did generate a= lot of t=20 > raffic. And people predicted the Internet would collapse. Instead t= h=20 > e opposite happened =E2=80=93 demand created supply. One reason is = that =20 > we=E2=80=99re able to take advantage of any available bits with con= gestion b=20 > eing an annoying but not fatal. For example lost packet used to clo= s=20 > e a click but we=E2=80=99ve learned how to smooth over such problem= s. > > > > It turned out that the capacity increased quickly where there were = =20 > no disincentives. The increase came in many forms which can be = =20 > loosely called Moore=E2=80=99s law effects. But as I wrote in http:= //rmf.vc/?n=3D=20 > BL the physics aspect of Moore=E2=80=99s law is secondary to my mar= ketplace =20 > formulation. If you decouple systems and embrace any opportunity yo= u=20 > get hypergrowth. It didn=E2=80=99t matter if you made bits run fas= t or you =20 > had more paths the net effect was more. (no puns intended but you c= a=20 > n find them if you wish). > > > > Thus fiber in the ground was able to carry more bits thanks to = =20 > improved gear at the end points. Yet DSL didn=E2=80=99t improve muc= h beyond =20 > the initial 1980=E2=80=99s implementation of ADSL because the carri= ers had n=20 > o incentive beyond the original purpose of Interactive TV and impro= v=20 > ements threatened their ability to charge high prices for T1 lines = a=20 > nd for bits themselves. The same thing happened with fiber when the= =20 > improvements led to a glut in capacity about 2000 and the carriers = r=20 > eacted by purposefully limiting capacity and then pretending the li= m=20 > its were inherent. > > > > Meeting the demand for =E2=80=9Cweb bits=E2=80=9D had a side-effect= of giving us =20 > copious capacity and the low latency, low jitter application starte= d=20 > to =E2=80=9Cjust work=E2=80=9D. But we mustn=E2=80=99t forget that= this is a process =20 > of discovery not one of promise. We might argue against the asymmet= r=20 > ic =E2=80=9Cbroadband=E2=80=9D connections but we also discovered t= hat they are =20 > indeed useful for video, especially since that was the original pur= p=20 > ose of the underlying architecture. > > > > To make this even more confusing is that once VoIP started working = =20 > over high performance links clever folks started making it work = =20 > seeming unsuitable paths and then voice-grams started to blur the = =20 > distinctions between conversations and messaging. On the surface it= =20 > all looks like telephony but it=E2=80=99s not =E2=80=93 and trying = to preserve =20 > telephony becomes counter-productive. > > > > The problem today is that observers who see these applications = =E2=80=9Cjust=20 > work=E2=80=9D confuse discovery with purpose and want to bake in t= he applic=20 > ations in the same sense that some people supposedly wanted to clos= e=20 > the patent office in the 1800=E2=80=99s because everything had alr= eady been=20 > discovered. (A useful story even if not true). > > > > I do think that we need new protocols less dependent upon network = =20 > managers tilting the playing field and protocols which limit the = =20 > ability of =E2=80=9Cbad players=E2=80=9D to prevent others from dis= covering new =20 > possibilities. This is one reason I=E2=80=99m wary of =E2=80=9Cprop= er network =20 > management=E2=80=9D since =E2=80=9Cproper=E2=80=9D can reflect a pr= esumption of purpose. > > > > The fears of network collapse have a basis in reality just as the = =20 > warnings that modems would destroy the phone network were real = =20 > modulo their assumed architectural limits. But the solution was not= =20 > in better network management and was instead in increasing the = =20 > capacity so such problems became moot. > > > > As with my comments on DSL the issue of incentives and funding are = =20 > fundamental. Today=E2=80=99s network in which network operators are= threaten=20 > ed by abundance is the new =E2=80=9Cmodem crisis=E2=80=9D with conc= erns about =20 > neutrality being a countervailing force. > > > > The real danger in the purpose-driven network is that we focus on = =20 > how to manage scarcity by favoring applications on the presumption = =20 > that the =E2=80=9Cnetwork=E2=80=9D is making promises rather than p= roviding =20 > opportunity. We should be addressing the root (and route?) causes o= f=20 > the problem =E2=80=93 the very idea that carriers have to monetize= the traf=20 > fic and thus have every incentive to limit capacity and make promis= e=20 > s they that they can charge for. Indeed carriers proving bandwidth = a=20 > nd video are making promises rather than just providing opportunity= . > > > > Alas the discussion of =E2=80=9Cneutrality=E2=80=9D gets lost in th= is controversy =20 > over purpose. I=E2=80=99d like a simple formulation in which provid= ers have =20 > no stake in making promises but the discussion may be too polluted = b=20 > y the presumption of purpose. > > > > These considerations are very much on my mind as I write about = =20 > Ambient Connectivity. It=E2=80=99s about creating opportunity and d= ecoupling=20 > the applications from providers who need to monetize each path. > > Understanding AC requires a nuanced understanding of the Internet= =E2=80=99s =20 > dynamic and the success of the experiment in decoupling the applica= t=20 > ions from the accidental properties of the transport and its =E2= =80=9Cowners=20 > =E2=80=9D. > > ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_LC3jh3VWsj6KhiEYLCysUg) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE




Begin= forwarded message:

Fr= om: Bob Frankston <Bob19-0501@bobf.frankston.com>
Date: November = 3, 2009 12:33:11 PM EST
To: "Prof. David J. J Farber" <<= a href=3D"mailto:dave@farber.net">dave@farber.net>, nnsquad@nnsquad.org
Subject: Purpose vs discov= ery and the Internet as a dynamic

=

I=E2=80=99m writing this in response to the my= riad discussions about how to make sure that the Internet continues to =E2=80=9Cwork= =E2=80=9D despite P2P or whatever the current threat seems to be. Behind much o= f the discussion is the presumption that the Internet has a purpose in the = sense of making some applications like video games and VoIP work. Yesterday we= feared modems, today we fear P2P.

 

This confusion arises from the success of the = Internet. People see what works and assume that the purpose of the Internet is to supp= ort those applications. The fact applications that require low latency (delays)= and low jitter (variability) work in some cases means that we must now promis= e to make sure they work everywhere. The very innovation that made the applicat= ion work so well at such a low cost is now seen as a threat to the new status = quo.

 

We =E2=80=9Cprove=E2=80=9D this by example = =E2=80=93 but that=E2=80=99s just the opposite of science. Science is about testing ideas rather t= han looking for confirmation of our presumptions. We then add more confus= ion by building in the mechanisms we presume are necessary thus which, of co= urse, =E2=80=9Cproves=E2=80=9D that they are the reason the applications work.

 

In fact the applications started to =E2=80= =9Cjust work=E2=80=9D because the mechanisms are not built in =E2=80=93 it=E2=80=99s this s= eeming paradox that keeps us arguing in circles. As I explain in http://frankston.com/?n=3DInternetDynamic VoIP did not work in the 1980=E2=80=99s. Or, to be more precise, it m= ight=E2=80=99ve indeed worked over local networks but you couldn=E2=80=99t presume th= at it would work between LANs, especially when dialup connections were involved. = Instead we used the Internet for more tolerant applications such as email and fi= le transfers.

 

If we had to make voice work we could=E2=80= =99ve built it into the network by being dependent upon the network giving us a dedicated= path. This is the basic design choice made in SS7. Both the Internet and SS= 7 were done by CS people but with different assumptions. SS7 achieved its go= al and supporting high quality (56KB in the US) voice but at the price of be= ing dependent upon high priced gear (as per 1970=E2=80=99s prices).<= /o:p>

 

By eschewing dependence on such gear the Inter= net (as a thing) couldn=E2=80=99t make such promises. Instead we had to find ou= t what worked and go with it. Email worked because it was very tolerant and = typical messages were a few hundred characters with people flagging messages = over a thousand words or so as large.

 

Experience suggested that applications such as= voice and video couldn=E2=80=99t work without special help because they were to= o sensitive to latency and jitter.

 

Then the Web happened. The web itself was init= ially about text so the latency and jitter weren=E2=80=99t issues but it did gene= rate a lot of traffic. And people predicted the Internet would collapse. Instead= the opposite happened =E2=80=93 demand created supply. One reason is that= we=E2=80=99re able to take advantage of any available bits with congestion being an= annoying but not fatal. For example lost packet used to close a click but we= =E2=80=99ve learned how to smooth over such problems.

 

It turned out that the capacity increased quic= kly where there were no disincentives. The increase came in many forms which c= an be loosely called Moore=E2=80=99s law effects. But as I wrote in http://r= mf.vc/?n=3DBL the physics aspect of Moore=E2=80=99s law is secondary to my marketplace formulation. If yo= u decouple systems and embrace any opportunity you get hypergrowth. It didn=E2= =80=99t matter if you made bits run fast or you had more paths the net effect was mo= re. (no puns intended but you can find them if you wish).

 

Thus fiber in the ground was able to carry mor= e bits thanks to improved gear at the end points. Yet DSL didn=E2=80=99t improve mu= ch beyond the initial 1980=E2=80=99s implementation of ADSL because the carrier= s had no incentive beyond the original purpose of Interactive TV and improveme= nts threatened their ability to charge high prices for T1 lines and for b= its themselves. The same thing happened with fiber when the improvements = led to a glut in capacity about 2000 and the carriers reacted by purposefully = limiting capacity and then pretending the limits were inherent.

 

Meeting the demand for =E2=80=9Cweb bits=E2= =80=9D had a side-effect of giving us copious capacity and the low latency, low ji= tter application started to =E2=80=9Cjust work=E2=80=9D. But we mustn=E2= =80=99t forget that this is a process of discovery not one of promise. We might argu= e against the asymmetric =E2=80=9Cbroadband=E2=80=9D connections but we also di= scovered that they are indeed useful for video, especially since that was the origi= nal purpose of the underlying architecture.

 

To make this even more confusing is that once = VoIP started working over high performance links clever folks started making it wo= rk seeming unsuitable paths and then voice-grams started to blur the distinction= s between conversations and messaging. On the surface it all looks like telepho= ny but it=E2=80=99s not =E2=80=93 and trying to preserve telephony becomes counter-produc= tive.

 

The problem today is that observers who see th= ese applications =E2=80=9Cjust work=E2=80=9D confuse discovery with purpo= se and want to bake in the applications in the same sense that some people supposedl= y wanted to close the patent office in the 1800=E2=80=99s because everything h= ad already been discovered. (A useful story even if not true).

 

I do think that we need new protocols less dep= endent upon network managers tilting the playing field and protocols which limit = the ability of =E2=80=9Cbad players=E2=80=9D to prevent others from disco= vering new possibilities. This is one reason I=E2=80=99m wary of =E2=80=9Cproper= network management=E2=80=9D since =E2=80=9Cproper=E2=80=9D can reflect a pres= umption of purpose.

 

The fears of network collapse have a basis in = reality just as the warnings that modems would destroy the phone network were real= modulo their assumed architectural limits. But the solution was not in bette= r network management and was instead in increasing the capacity so such problem= s became moot.

 

As with my comments on DSL the issue of incent= ives and funding are fundamental. Today=E2=80=99s network in which network ope= rators are threatened by abundance is the new =E2=80=9Cmodem crisis=E2=80=9D wit= h concerns about neutrality being a countervailing force.

 

The real danger in the purpose-driven network = is that we focus on how to manage scarcity by favoring applications on the presu= mption that the =E2=80=9Cnetwork=E2=80=9D is making promises rather than providin= g opportunity. We should be addressing the root (and route?) causes of the problem = =E2=80=93 the very idea that carriers have to monetize the traffic and thus have ev= ery incentive to limit capacity and make promises they that they can char= ge for. Indeed carriers proving bandwidth and video are making promises rathe= r than just providing opportunity.

 

Alas the discussion of =E2=80=9Cneutrality= =E2=80=9D gets lost in this controversy over purpose. I=E2=80=99d like a simple formulation = in which providers have no stake in making promises but the discussion may be = too polluted by the presumption of purpose.

 

These considerations are very much on my mind = as  I write about Ambient Connectivity. It=E2=80=99s about creating opportunity and decoupling the applications from provi= ders who need to monetize each path.

Understanding AC requires a nuanced understand= ing of the Internet=E2=80=99s dynamic and the success of the experiment in decou= pling the applications from the accidental properties of the transport and its =E2=80=9Cowners=E2=80=9D.

 

--Boundary_(ID_LC3jh3VWsj6KhiEYLCysUg)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Wed Nov 4 06:13:33 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSL00J010IGV6@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 06:13:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSL00J010IDUX@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Wed, 04 Nov 2009 06:13:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSJ00D01QB1SU@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:35:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSJ00D1JQB154@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:35:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE6659A253 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:36:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.38]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8EDC9A252 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:36:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A539999B1D for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:36:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A57E48DF2B for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:35:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 637088DF2A for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:35:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.9] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id nA3IY8F2021194 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:35:03 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:35:03 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] DSLP AT&T CTO Wants Non-discrimination To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <864DBC0A-958A-44AC-8567-66E0BF313693@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1076) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1076) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_p6lvxZiiQCQihSxVq11vHQ)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:subject:date:references:to:message-id:mime-version :reply-to:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s= launch; bh=a89l/2EiM8VUFLcX6ft2qgU+Pdg=; b=nQqilVEt/bZvMSZHzhk4A XCarV8nOvDXhH8frB8Mf1ij602IfLgGNdRZIKY5CgYTV+ScQoh6epRWmpYIU5YP3 A== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 9C414212-C8A7-11DE-93FA-D868CFE6BB6D X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <4AF075A9.90609@reed.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_p6lvxZiiQCQihSxVq11vHQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Begin forwarded message: =46rom: "David P. Reed" Date: November 3, 2009 1:25:45 PM EST To: "'NNSquad'" , David Farber Subject: DSLP AT&T CTO Wants Non-discrimination Hmmm... -------- Original Message -------- Subject:=09DSLP AT&T CTO Wants Non-discrimination Date:=09Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:02:30 -0500 =46rom:=09Dave Burstein To:=09news@dslprime.com November 3 Newsbreak: AT&T CTO Donovan: We Need Non-Discrimination "Outside applications need to be on an equal footing with our own = =20 applications," John Donovan said at a SUPERCOMM keynote here in =20 Chicago. "My jaw dropped," one of his colleagues told me a few minute= s =20 later, because this is a reversal of AT&T's long-standing position = =20 they needed to be able to favor their own applications. AT&T D.C. = =20 needs to listen closely to their own CTO, because they are throwing = =20 everything they have in D.C. at preventing "non-discrimination" being= =20 included in the FCC Net Neutrality regulations. Apps are critical to the success of the iPhone, which "is =20 transforming AT&T's entire network and business," again according to = a =20 colleague. He knows that the (mostly) open platform of the iPhone is = =20 necessary to give iPhone apps access, which in turn is crucial to the= =20 success of AT&T wireless. Donovan suggests that a similar openess wil= l =20 make a dramatic difference across the business. If they discriminate = =20 in favor of their own video, games, or whatever comes next, developer= s =20 will be hard to attract. John is still new to AT&T, and clearly is "thinking different." = =20 His handlers apparently forgot to tell him what not to say, so he = =20 explained AT&T's strategy straight, not filtered through his =20 (extremely effective) D.C. lobbyists. Presumably, an angry phone call= =20 =66rom D.C. now has told him to shut up. Ed Gubbins at Telephony has the quote as =93We use the principle = of =20 =91us on us,=92=94 [Donovan] said, referring to AT&T services on AT&T= =92s =20 network. =93If we take an external developer and ourselves, we should= =20 not be advantaged in how long it takes or how much expertise is =20 required. It needs to be that simple, because that would put the = =20 foundation in place for how to horizontalize all your platforms in a = =20 way. Far enough is when you=92re on equal footing with anyone that = =20 externally would be looking to bind your network. Whether you=92re = =20 reaching for physical assets, logical assets or into the IT systems, = I =20 don=92t think it needs to be that complicated. You just have to say, = =91Is =20 us on us the same as them on us?=92 ... We have to prepare our networ= ks =20 for a world where the user experience is going to be [controlled by] = =20 any number of different companies unique to the individual user.=94 h= ttp://telephonyonline.com/service_delivery/news/atts-cto-service-orie= nted-architectures-1021/ Richard Epstein can make a sensible argument against NN http://b= it.ly/2BknP7=20 (government will screw things up,) but the AT&T advocates in D.C. = =20 apparently can't. At least one said equal treatment would be =20 impossible, foolishly contradicting his CTO, SVP, and CEO Ed Whitacre= =20 testifying in the Senate. Kim Hart reported DC opinions that U-Verse = =20 spending would be decimated if the rules went through, a silly notion= . =20 Cable is clobbering them where they don't have U-Verse and they can't= =20 afford to cut it back. ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_p6lvxZiiQCQihSxVq11vHQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

<= div>Begin forwarded message:

Date: November 3, 2009 1:= 25:45 PM EST
To:= nnsquad@nnsq= uad.org>, David Farber <= dave@farber.net>
Subject: DSLP AT&T CTO Wants Non-discrimination

Hmmm...

-------- Original Message --------
Subje= ct: DSLP AT&T CTO Wants Non-discrimination
Date:= Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:02:30 -0500
From:= Dave Burstein <daveb@dslprime.com>
To: <= /th> news@dslprime.com


November 3
Newsbreak: AT&T CTO Donovan: We Need Non-Discrimination
"Outside applications need to be on an equal footing with our own applications," John Donovan said at a SUPERCOMM keynote here in Chicago. "My jaw dropped," one of his colleagues told me a few minutes later, because this is a reversal of AT&T's long-standing position they needed to be able to favor their own applications. AT&T D.C. needs to listen closely to their own CTO, because they are throwing everything they have in D.C. at preventing "non-discrimination" being included in the FCC Net Neutrality regulations.

    Apps are critical to the success of the iPhone, wh= ich "is transforming AT&T's entire network and business," again according to a colleague. He knows that the (mostly) open platform of the iPhone is necessary to give iPhone apps access, which in turn is crucial to the success of AT&T wireless. Donovan suggests that a similar openess will make a dramatic difference across the business. If they discriminate in favor of their own video, games, or whatever comes next, developers will be hard to attract.

    John is still new to AT&T, and clearly is "thinking different." His handlers apparently forgot to tell him what not to say, so he explained AT&T's strategy straight, no= t filtered through his (extremely effective) D.C. lobbyists. Presumably= , an angry phone call from D.C. now has told him to shut up.

   Ed Gubbins at Telephony has the quote as =93We use the principle of =91us on us,=92=94 [Donovan] said, referring to AT&T services on AT&T=92s network. =93If we take an external developer and ours= elves, we should not be advantaged in how long it takes or how much expertis= e is required. It needs to be that simple, because that would put the foundation in place for how to horizontalize all your platforms in a way. Far enough is when you=92re on equal footing with anyone that externa= lly would be looking to bind your network. Whether you=92re reaching for physical assets, logical assets or into the IT systems, I don=92t thi= nk it needs to be that complicated. You just have to say, =91Is us on us th= e same as them on us?=92 ... We have to prepare our networks for a world whe= re the user experience is going to be [controlled by] any number of differen= t companies unique to the individual user.=94 http://telephonyonline.com/service_delivery/news/atts-cto-service-or= iented-architectures-1021/

    Richard Epstein can make a sensible argument again= st NN http://bit.ly/2BknP7 (government will screw things up,) but the AT&T advocates in D.C. apparently can't. At least one said equal treatment would be impossible, foolishly contradicting his CTO, SVP, and CEO Ed Whitacre testifying = in the Senate. Kim Hart reported DC opinions that U-Verse spending would be decimated if the rules went through, a silly notion. Cable is clobbering them where they don't have U-Verse and they can't afford to cut it back.


--Boundary_(ID_p6lvxZiiQCQihSxVq11vHQ)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Wed Nov 4 06:13:34 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSL00J010IGV6@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 06:13:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSL00J010IDUX@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Wed, 04 Nov 2009 06:13:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSK00K011I2D2@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 17:37:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSK006DW1I2XZ@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 17:37:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8821999816 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 17:38:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06F169978F for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 17:38:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D45E899CA0 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 17:38:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7A418DDDE for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 17:37:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CE668DDDD for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 17:37:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.9] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id nA3Mb6wc027629 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2009 17:37:06 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 17:37:06 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] WORTH READING DSLP AT&T CTO Wants Non-discrimination To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <6C3C7F96-C8B7-458A-BA98-6F64FE16069B@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1076) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1076) Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=Hs1NdipUR8GndTCUO vKQPEWpkR4=; b=dbpDCUbwAXgOXRe89WGE2zXM+d38W/rsvR+f345Gv7KoaNfOW dqH58waxT1VfF+ROx3JNYpTcsmNjxICzuqpxg== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 6C05C218-C8C9-11DE-AB2C-B3F5C2280ECE X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <1413017526E8B94EAF31E63C70CB0FB619E83B@dcexmb01.sidley.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 From a requested anonymous friend: "Never one to trust the second (third?) hand reports, I took a look a= t =20 the video, available on the SuperComm website. As is often the case,= =20 context matters. This was a panel discussion of the CTOs of Verizon,= =20 Qwest, AT&T, Sprint etc. with a moderator asking questions. After an= =20 hour or so of questions about growing demands on the network and what= =20 the CTOs were doing about it, the moderator said: =93I=92m getting r= eady =20 to change topics and climb out of the network and move up a little = =20 higher in the stack and talk a little more about applications . . . = =20 The industry in general is talking about software-oriented networks = =20 and the ability to combine Web 2.0, IMS, SOA . . . So, I=92ll ask eac= h =20 of you to answer this very quickly =96 How does your company define w= hat =20 software-oriented network actually is?=94 The response was a respons= e =20 to that question, not to anything about =93dumb=94 or =93smart=94 pip= es, =20 network management, quality of service, government regulation, or = =20 anything else relevant to the current network neutrality debate. Now= , =20 I=92m no expert on =93software-oriented network=94 (SON) or =93softwa= re-=20 oriented architecture=94 (SOA) principles, but I did a little Interne= t =20 research and it seems to refer to (somewhat loosely defined) =20 cooperation among/communications between various types of system = =20 applications used to deliver services, such as OSS (operating support= =20 systems) and BSS (billing support systems), not end user applications= =20 (in other words, creating more seamless communication/integration = =20 between the network/service provider and third parties to which it ha= s =20 (contractually) outsourced particular functionalities). Moreover, SO= N/=20 SOA also seems to contemplate more, not less, applications =20 intelligence residing in the network to facilitate that coordination.= =20 So, sorry, there is no net neutrality headline here. (Seems like Mr.= =20 Burstein could have figured this out with a little due diligence.)" and "note that I wrote down the quote as a I was listening to the blip.tv video of the panel; if you want to verify th= at I got it exactly right here's the link http://www.nextgenweb.org/supercomm-2009 Go to the Oct. 21 sessions. Time code of the question on SONs comes = at 64:40 - John's comments begin around 69:50." -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Wed Nov 4 06:13:35 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSL00J010IGV6@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 06:13:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSL00J010IDUX@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Wed, 04 Nov 2009 06:13:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSK00J01OX9B3@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 02:03:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSK00DK2OX9RP@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 02:03:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D30D199B1A for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 02:04:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE39B99B19 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 02:04:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE0AD971AF for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 02:04:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1434D8ED77 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 02:00:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP02.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.197]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20CC08ED76 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 02:00:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.9] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id nA4700QC009337 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 02:00:01 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 01:59:59 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Palo Alto -- Ken Banks * Mobile Technology: Empowering the grassroots * Thurs Nov 5 To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <80560A48-D717-4DC1-B0DC-8C7A44856247@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1076) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1076) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=iqUkLL76z3PgoJ663 1gmLUPl3tA=; b=Ot2961ZkHJM2JH71/zsDeMfbIcdGgRObey6rSADLyJuRDziv7 DPYl1SHu9Nt2JI9ps9F6nOaIkHBB/Ukko146Q== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.197 X-Listbox-UUID: ADDC4B76-C90F-11DE-A100-CE970C807445 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <20091104063007.09BE61A0B5F@smtp.stanford.edu> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: allison@stanford.edu Date: November 4, 2009 1:30:07 AM EST To: dave@farber.net Subject: Ken Banks * Mobile Technology: Empowering the grassroots * Thurs Nov 5 Reply-To: allison@stanford.edu Stanford Program on Liberation Technology Presents Mobile Technology:Empowering the grassroots Ken Banks, Founder, kiwanja.net Thursday, Nov 5, 2009 4:30-6:00pm Wallenberg Theater, Bldg 160 Stanford University Despite the promise, the majority of mobile technology solutions are only meeting the needs of a small percentage of organizations who could benefit from them. In his talk, Ken Banks will discuss how he empowers grassroots NGOs, provide the history and background to FrontlineSMS, and highlight some of the challenges in developing mobile tools which work in resource-constrained environments Ken Banks, founder of kiwanja.net, devotes himself to the application of mobile technology for positive social and environmental change in the developing world, and has spent the last 16 years working on projects in Africa. Recently, his research resulted in the development of FrontlineSMS, an award-winning text messaging-based field communication system designed to empower grassroots non-profit organizations. Ken graduated from Sussex University with honours in Social Anthropology with Development Studies, and was awarded a Stanford University Reuters Digital Vision Fellowship in 2006, and named a Pop!Tech Social Innovation Fellow in 2008. In 2009 he was named a Laureate of the Tech Awards, an international awards program which honours innovators from around the world who are applying technology to benefit humanity. Ken's work has been supported by the MacArthur Foundation and Open Society Institute, and he is the current recipient of a grant from the Hewlett Foundation This talk is open to the public. Everyone is encouraged to attend and participate. For further information please contact Kathleen Barcos WHY AM I GETTING THIS MAIL? You are receiving this announcement because you receive announcements for the Stanford EE Computer Systems Colloquium and we believe that you might also find this talk to be of interest. -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Wed Nov 4 15:45:12 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSL00C01QZ8P9@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 15:45:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSL00C01QZ5P2@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Wed, 04 Nov 2009 15:45:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSL00H019MJQB@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 09:30:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSL00EEH9MJDA@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 09:30:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6417899F10 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 09:31:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60DB399F0B for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 09:31:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F8DC98CC5 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 09:31:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E7A68C3C9 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 09:27:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP02.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.197]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 625138C3C8 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 09:27:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from farbermac.isri.cmu.edu (FARBERMAC.ISRI.CMU.EDU [128.2.220.234]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id nA4ER6Se019954 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 09:27:06 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 09:27:06 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] MPAA: If We Don't Stop Piracy, The Internet Will Die To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1076) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1076) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=subject :references:from:content-type:message-id:date:to :content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:reply-to:list-id :list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=ZGlB8ea rWy60FOI548VRppZAH1I=; b=aFcOHU9kF5Hc1SHPPL9jjCAErhWKphYKNtz9Ygp cEB+VcBpUGlRhItYJ40MbA15dEm9TbgHaMn0G0Pe1963Vew== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.197 X-Listbox-UUID: 23022AFE-C94E-11DE-A659-DB11BE86CE62 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Richard Forno Date: November 3, 2009 7:52:06 PM EST To: Infowarrior List Cc: Dave Farber Subject: MPAA: If We Don't Stop Piracy, The Internet Will Die MPAA Tells The FCC: If We Don't Stop Piracy, The Internet Will Die from the moral-panic dept Never let it be said that the folks in Hollywood aren't good at coming up with a totally fictional horror story. I just have a problem when they use it not to entertain, but to create a moral panic to push the government to pass laws in their favor. In discussing the recent 60 Minutes piece that was really nothing more than an MPAA scare tactic, some suggested that it was really just a first step in the process of getting the government to make sure net neutrality rules had a special Hollywood exception. So, it's interesting to note that just before that 60 Minutes episode aired (and just before Halloween), the MPAA sent a "scary" filing to the FCC warning it how the US would always be a broadband laggard if it didn't stomp out piracy. The full filing (warning:pdf) claims, repeatedly, that piracy is sucking up all our bandwidth and getting rid of that would somehow make it cheaper to install faster internet connections. (much more) http://techdirt.com/articles/20091103/0434486780.shtml -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Wed Nov 4 15:45:13 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSL00C01QZ8P9@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 15:45:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSL00C01QZ5P2@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Wed, 04 Nov 2009 15:45:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSL00K01AIDDU@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 09:49:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSL00ED9AICH9@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 09:49:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADF12999D9 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 09:51:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAEE1999D8 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 09:51:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C58D973A8 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 09:51:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FE53990F4 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 09:46:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by a-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52980990F2 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 09:46:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from farbermac.isri.cmu.edu (FARBERMAC.ISRI.CMU.EDU [128.2.220.234]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id nA4Ek2on007882 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 09:46:02 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 09:46:02 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Verizon to Double Early Termination Fee - Verizon early termination fee - Gizmodo To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <384F7451-437C-48C9-948D-BE1C1799DB5A@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1076) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1076) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_g1MOLNPFzXvnlqpRmeJNEw)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=subject :from:content-type:message-id:date:to:mime-version:reply-to :list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=chpAz+TTK4Tl9Z1EwAUqcM9hbAY=; b=clw1NjbcBoXRq9lxpu1Y9rvR06vV YGdzFvtWvW0bOv7OWDps60sTRRBcBY4XI6Pgu7qstCtg7alKKKedVIyS4Q== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: C8053A08-C950-11DE-BCA5-FC833E340803 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_g1MOLNPFzXvnlqpRmeJNEw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT http://gizmodo.com/5396828/verizon-to-double-early-termination-fee ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_g1MOLNPFzXvnlqpRmeJNEw) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

http://gizmodo.com/5396828/verizon-to-double-early-termination-fee

--Boundary_(ID_g1MOLNPFzXvnlqpRmeJNEw)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Wed Nov 4 15:45:14 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSL00C01QZ8P9@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 15:45:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSL00C01QZ5P2@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Wed, 04 Nov 2009 15:45:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSL00M01BHUVU@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 10:10:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.83]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSL00EMHBHUH9@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 10:10:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EBA59985F for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 10:12:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.87]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C4479985E for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 10:12:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D802992F8 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 10:12:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 945BB8E654 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 10:06:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C8008E652 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 10:06:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from farbermac.isri.cmu.edu (FARBERMAC.ISRI.CMU.EDU [128.2.220.234]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id nA4F6N44008252 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 10:06:24 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 10:06:23 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] re: MPAA: If We Don't Stop Piracy, The Internet Will Die To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1076) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1076) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=subject :references:from:content-type:message-id:date:to :content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:reply-to:list-id :list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=RgUL7NG +J0cskGf+o7Y2OMuntS8=; b=LgFO9svtmSCGxn/++76Kc1TpbbnL+eC94qqVFtm Ci+tKztgsV+PytmkKPyaRcPNNBqF+Gm/2ahjUtnCZPB8a9w== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: A0C64128-C953-11DE-8C90-ADF5CB50033A X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Mary Shaw Date: November 4, 2009 9:53:16 AM EST To: dave@farber.net Subject: Re: [IP] MPAA: If We Don't Stop Piracy, The Internet Will Die ummm.... Was that subject line really supposed to read, "If We Stop the Internet, Piracy Will Die"? Mary -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Wed Nov 4 15:45:15 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSL00C01QZ8P9@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 15:45:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSL00C01QZ5P2@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Wed, 04 Nov 2009 15:45:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSL00J01JGZ9G@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:03:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSL00I4XJGYL4@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:02:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 452E69A6B3 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:04:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4312B9A6AF for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:04:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 403B99AA25 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:04:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 990708F11F for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:04:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP03.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.198]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD5C88F11E for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:04:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.9] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id nA4I4A2b003880 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:04:11 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:04:12 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Hit With a Massive Antitrust Suit, In the US This Time - Intel antitrust - Gizmodo To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1076) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1076) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_QgDalSHeEjH9+bC7rZupwA)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:subject:date:message-id:to:mime-version:reply-to :list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=XQz5tALTURLmMG7FMC5pf61cUno=; b=PLVK3UKIXPvgvWNmjGMzDyugka5U 4raW1ByDiEH0Pzi08nCTmebAf21jtbu9YPlcwOjtSC8XXWl0OB1vlTnRcg== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.198 X-Listbox-UUID: 760FC33C-C96C-11DE-9939-8E5B77871B01 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_QgDalSHeEjH9+bC7rZupwA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT http://gizmodo.com/5397013/intel-hit-with-a-massive-antitrust-suit-in-the-us-this-time ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_QgDalSHeEjH9+bC7rZupwA) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

http://gizmodo.com/5397013/intel-hit-with-a-massive-antitrust-suit-in-the-us-this-time

--Boundary_(ID_QgDalSHeEjH9+bC7rZupwA)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Wed Nov 4 15:45:16 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSL00C01QZ8P9@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 15:45:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSL00C01QZ5P2@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Wed, 04 Nov 2009 15:45:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSL00K01JQ721@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:08:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.83]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSL00IARJQ7L4@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:08:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33755992A1 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:10:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.87]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DFE99929E for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:10:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 116109863D for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:10:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF96C99964 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:00:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP03.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.198]) by a-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35E4299963 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:00:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.9] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id nA4I0Eod003600 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:00:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:00:15 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] GBS To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <6551F2A3-234D-48CB-A758-00788AF3D40A@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1076) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1076) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=zG6NSwhoKJCjwWaxL rbTQfCMFow=; b=SCCWM3BBQXk8dwXDZ6tl0f9XbSaYOCjNLt8RPb8ymUuKEE/+m 4aHo9PYuyIdGCSg3e33bQBCn55ruGBjArP1WA== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.198 X-Listbox-UUID: E8FCDEEE-C96B-11DE-9A87-D8CA2F89972C X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <4AF1B911.2090407@ischool.berkeley.edu> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Pam Samuelson Date: November 4, 2009 12:25:37 PM EST To: dave@farber.net Subject: GBS Paul Courant, U Michigan's Librarian, has published an essay in support of the Google Book Settlement; I have responded with my reasons for reservations about it. Links to both articles can be found at: http://www.bepress.com/ev/vol6/iss10/art4 -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Wed Nov 4 15:45:17 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSL00C01QZ8P9@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 15:45:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSL00C01QZ5P2@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Wed, 04 Nov 2009 15:45:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSL00L01KCT95@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:22:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSL00JBNKCTAX@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:22:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 287B99BBC6 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:23:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.38]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20E1D9BBC0 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:23:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CC379BC95 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:23:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36C738C4B3 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:22:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAC018C4B1 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:22:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.9] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id nA4IMVk0012676 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:22:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:22:32 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Workshop to design a secure system engineering competition -- Dec. 1 deadline for applications To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <9801E602-5CF6-4A69-BA3C-96B275754079@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1076) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1076) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=lERPPkd3wNddllkH+ Ve1wbI2L+s=; b=j1XUntLFK5CWnJB+K7bwHApCkd8rOXXuFVsLDFd8bjjEk58sA 2OEWJeD6wJo+uv/bMgcwFGSg2osJghiFSxRdA== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 059E1D8A-C96F-11DE-A222-F437CC2DF009 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: "Carl E. Landwehr" Date: November 4, 2009 12:51:42 PM EST To: Dave Farber Subject: Workshop to design a secure system engineering competition -- Dec. 1 deadline for applications Dave, For IP if you think it appropriate. For a long time I have had in mind creating a competition of some sort that would bring together industry, academic, and government participants to help us learn the most effective ways of building systems that have sound security properties and can be extended without completely redoing the assurance argument. I3P, with IARPA and NSF sponsorship, is convening a workshop to see whether we can define such a competition, and we need people with good ideas to participate. This list is full of such people. Please take a look at the workshop description available at: http://www.thei3p.org/events/dessec.html and consider submitting a sketch for a competition. The deadline for submissions is 1 December 2009; the workshop will be held 29 March - 1 April 2010. Thanks very much for your consideration, --Carl -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Nov 6 04:34:02 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSO00401L8K9K@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 06 Nov 2009 04:33:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSO00401L8E9C@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 06 Nov 2009 04:33:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSL00501ZWJ7X@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 18:58:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSL0029NZWJ0C@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 18:57:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A1B999685 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 18:59:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96F3599684 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 18:59:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 824DB98006 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 18:59:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BB558FF02 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 18:49:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-yx0-f185.google.com (mail-yx0-f185.google.com [209.85.210.185]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEEB08FF00 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 18:49:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by yxe15 with SMTP id 15so11501864yxe.9 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 15:49:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.91.18.5 with SMTP id v5mr4389575agi.91.1257378591662; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 15:49:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.0.1.7? ([67.165.107.113]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 5sm687004yxg.46.2009.11.04.15.49.50 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 04 Nov 2009 15:49:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 18:48:50 -0500 From: Dave Farber Subject: [IP] MPAA's latest warning/lie To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <68BBE536-B988-47A6-9CEE-3B378A57DDAD@me.com> MIME-version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7D11) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7D11) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_iBN//BujtElm82mTR1c1Mg)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=message-id :from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:date:references:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=kYbl3WWZk4YorXnxe sUbE7uqymA=; b=eOh7yNCjWAK53THcKd/bEOumAVzOcgRMhCFKpvP5CSc5NL233 MAI3eA+S2aGToAD3Wa2hHAAEm+vf6PweuMgcA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:mime-version :subject:date:references; bh=vk75YgpN1yQXPjoiQ6ct4hg1NPXiIi9HZEYWrh3NAfc=; b=Pok0oQMv2kZ4hyKwLVv/tvSUlo2HONVnEPBk8pVEFA2CCIC550BvBzH6u7jHkd0H0K 1/0ef6c1V2sAqY33aL8GFeEOzFWIfTXZB2jVNQL8aZk1gdqmaN5LWKGmurLqnZmg2iZF UFW/zgR2ozxVzz9+uF57ShGXjaSPuS/9paHdI= X-Listbox-UUID: BFF19D1A-C99C-11DE-A797-C2FF1D9FD5D3 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :x-mailer:mime-version:subject:date:references; b=MGc16Sb9CcEVRY6OSvV+TCts/3bhV68HHPYSfH6ZOqDMcreD+7SXRb89+NEZgXYq2Q jwPKGGDDfrgs65iOrccm0NWWuZPkgU4KFYAYIhLyuO/RZaHoYFmvYh8oUiZ9h30KC4oR xMhFli+cm8A30M/CE9jNmC4vyFUnIvoCBeKbg= --Boundary_(ID_iBN//BujtElm82mTR1c1Mg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Begin forwarded message: > From: Dan Gillmor > Date: November 4, 2009 6:16:32 PM EST > To: dave@farber.net > Subject: MPAA's latest warning/lie > > What they're really saying is: > > If we can't stop infringement, you have to let us kill the Internet. > > Dan > >> MPAA Tells The FCC: If We Don't Stop Piracy, The Internet Will Die >> from the moral-panic dept > > ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_iBN//BujtElm82mTR1c1Mg) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT




Begin forwarded message:

From: Dan Gillmor <dan@gillmor.com>
Date: November 4, 2009 6:16:32 PM EST
To: dave@farber.net
Subject: MPAA's latest warning/lie

What they're really saying is:

If we can't stop infringement, you have to let us kill the Internet.

Dan

MPAA Tells The FCC: If We Don't Stop Piracy, The Internet Will Die
from the moral-panic dept


--Boundary_(ID_iBN//BujtElm82mTR1c1Mg)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Nov 6 04:34:03 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSO00401L8K9K@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 06 Nov 2009 04:33:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSO00401L8E9C@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 06 Nov 2009 04:33:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSM00L017AFP0@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 21:37:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSM00J5V7AEWA@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 21:37:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C645A9C610 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 21:39:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.38]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C36009C60F for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 21:39:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFF629B0FF for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 21:39:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B41DB9ACA4 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 21:37:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP02.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.197]) by a-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFDAF9ACA3 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 21:37:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.9] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id nA52bqCp007180 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2009 21:37:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 21:37:47 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Michael Wolff: Skype Lives! To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1076) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1076) Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=6ZmskOQqssd2tkJs6 ZyeEXjE8DE=; b=chNinXsZ7nnz0TLI1uIEx6MsDNP5d+JXED5p7g4NW494CD4nL 1NoxvDJRjLNqTKMqy58vKSCRYwWk+Qgvpun+Q== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.197 X-Listbox-UUID: 3843A706-C9B4-11DE-9E01-C8F89AC74EA1 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <7C67CBDC-F0EE-48CA-84DA-A9A7059E5C81@warpspeed.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: =46rom: dewayne@warpspeed.com (Dewayne Hendricks) Date: November 4, 2009 12:43:39 PM EST To: Dewayne-Net Technology List Subject: [Dewayne-Net] Michael Wolff: Skype Lives! [Note: This item comes from friend John McMullen. DLH] =46rom: "John F. McMullen" Date: November 4, 2009 8:29:23 AM PST To: "John F. McMullen" Cc: Commonweal Mailing List , Dewayne = =20 Hendricks Subject: Michael Wolff: Skype Lives! From NewUser -- Skype Lives! by Michael Wolff I follow entrepreneurial dramas the way other people follow sports = =20 (did somebody win the World Series?). In these comedies, tragedies, o= r =20 farces, people really do rise beyond human limitations or get =20 ignominiously crushed. Sometimes there are second chances. =20 Entrepreneurs=97true entrepreneurs=97pride themselves, like none-too-= =20 bright boxers, on their ability to take a punch. But there aren=92t t= oo =20 many second chances. Not like the second chance that is unfolding right now. Among the greatest pieces of communications technology in our age of = =20 great communications technology, and hence, when it became the victim= =20 of corporate synergistic turpitude, the greatest failure, is Skype. I still can=92t get over Skype. When I=92m feeling low I think of it.= It=92s =20 like free food=97the ability to make free phone calls. And it=92s fre= e =20 phone calls with video. The picture phone has been the grail of =20 communications since the dawn of telecommunications time and suddenly= =20 it arrived and it was free. Skype is the true community and social = =20 networking technology. Skype is the broadcast medium of the future. = =20 Skype is the quantum leap forward of time and space. So imagine the pain, indeed the existential madness, its founders, = =20 Niklas Zennstrom and Janus Friis, must have felt when they sold Skype= =20 to eBay in 2005 and eBay, which shortly came to regret the $2.6 =20 billion it paid for the company, let it languish. EBay did nothing, = =20 except bicker with the company=92s founders, who were still managing = the =20 company (and argue over payouts and bonuses). Skype became a =20 technology that existed without development or strategy. As so often happens, the buyers and the entrepreneurial sellers came = =20 to hate each other. When eBay finally decided to sell Skype earlier = =20 this year for $1.9 billion, it seemed to take special pleasure in not= =20 selling it back to its founders even though theirs was arguably the = =20 better deal. That=92s when the fireworks began. As so often happens when a large = =20 company buys technology from entrepreneurs who have created it, eBay = =20 didn=92t understand what it was buying. Actually, in this instance, t= hey =20 failed to realize they hadn=92t really even bought the technology the= y =20 were now selling. [snip]RSS Feed: -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Nov 6 04:34:04 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSO00401L8K9K@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 06 Nov 2009 04:33:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSO00401L8E9C@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 06 Nov 2009 04:33:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSN00K011ZCI0@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 05 Nov 2009 08:40:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSN00K1C1ZCD5@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 05 Nov 2009 08:40:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF2E69A34D for ; Thu, 05 Nov 2009 08:42:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84ED09A346 for ; Thu, 05 Nov 2009 08:42:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B34F19902D for ; Thu, 05 Nov 2009 08:42:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2519C902F5 for ; Thu, 05 Nov 2009 08:31:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6165C902F4 for ; Thu, 05 Nov 2009 08:31:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.5] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id nA5DVmXc026812 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 05 Nov 2009 08:31:48 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 08:31:48 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Google launches privacy Dashboard service To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <4D3AC8B2-218D-4FC9-8F66-8599A9ECDD0C@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1076) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1076) Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=5NEsZeCqawiS1jqc5 PUwvhANIZU=; b=Sn/LHZw5DjiJfFkEcHN6gKyorFhnd5G+HpgaP46PZ2HjCzzpC 39FZWp8BjV/Y4quw9faluuuRmKhp4lfEEXNyA== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 939B89CE-CA0F-11DE-8078-CAEA41B69244 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: =46rom: Richard Forno Date: November 5, 2009 8:11:36 AM EST To: Undisclosed-recipients: <>; Cc: Dave Farber Subject: Google launches privacy Dashboard service Google launches privacy Dashboard service What does Google know about me? By John Leyden =95 Get more from this author Posted in Applications, 5th November 2009 12:30 GMT http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/11/05/google_privacy_dashboard/ Google has launched a Dashboard service that's designed to show how = =20 much the search engine giant knows about its users online activities. The service provides a summary of data associated with a specified = =20 Google account. Users gain the ability to view and manage data, which= =20 ranges from search engine queries and emails sent through Gmail =20 through to videos viewed on YouTube, and much else besides. Users wil= l =20 usually have already consented to allow Google to keep tabs on their = =20 activities online, but the search engine giant's tentacles reach so = =20 far that it's tough to know how much information it holds on each of = us. Google Dashboard - which is designed to address privacy concerns over= =20 the search engine giant's propensity to catalogue data - is accessed = =20 by logging into a Google account. Surfers get a list of the number of= =20 items held on particular services (Calenders, Blogger, Shopper, Chat,= =20 Gmail etc. etc.) linking to the data repositories of these services = =20 for more detailed information. Although the Dashboard service goes some way towards answering the = =20 question of what Google knows about our lives online, it doesn't = =20 really provide many clues about how Google uses this information. In = =20 addition, one thing not included in the run-down is cookie-based data= =20 Google collects via its huge online ad-serving business. Even so, Google Dashboard holds a lot of potentially sensitive data, = =20 providing yet another good reason for users to use hard to guess = =20 (strong) passwords on their Gmail or other Google accounts. -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Nov 6 04:34:05 2009 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSO00401L8K9K@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 06 Nov 2009 04:33:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSO00401L8E9C@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 06 Nov 2009 04:33:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KSN00B018QEQR@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 05 Nov 2009 11:06:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KSN00A568QDHP@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 05 Nov 2009 11:06:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15AED9AF28 for ; Thu, 05 Nov 2009 11:07:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13B8A9AF27 for ; Thu, 05 Nov 2009 11:07:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03D8D9902B for ; Thu, 05 Nov 2009 11:07:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2EF290B1A for ; Thu, 05 Nov 2009 11:02:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4138690B19 for ; Thu, 05 Nov 2009 11:02:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.5] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id nA5G2Q6F029614 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 05 Nov 2009 11:02:26 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 11:02:24 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Giz Explains: Android, and How It Will Take Over the World - android 2.0 - Gizmodo To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1076) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1076) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_BNEIaNp0OfHi7VNkD80mwQ)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:subject:date:message-id:to:mime-version:reply-to :list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=L7W0WakclsxaWbT/wD1676KxX/k=; b=K22B4Ea9QX/Wxr/HJnuKvlPGjWiJ OxtxRhWvJGIMQ2fY+Ak+KCGSROXeqRjo5zFMBhs0OJsD1/5nucCsjY8IOQ== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 9F2DCA44-CA24-11DE-BDEE-F1AF2AD3F18B X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_BNEIaNp0OfHi7VNkD80mwQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT http://gizmodo.com/5397215/giz-explains-android-and-how-it-will-take-over-the-world ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_BNEIaNp0OfHi7VNkD80mwQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

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