From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Mon Feb 1 15:57:13 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX600801KV8SZ@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 15:57:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX600801KV0SK@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Mon, 01 Feb 2010 15:57:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX600C012TQH9@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:27:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KX6009CQ2TQ1Z@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:27:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01FD9BDEBB for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:26:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2E27BD263 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:26:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C13CB0E35 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:25:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from asmtpout011.mac.com (asmtpout011.mac.com [17.148.16.86]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48074B0E34 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:25:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from spool002.mac.com ([10.150.69.52]) by asmtp011.mac.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-8.01 (built Dec 16 2008; 32bit)) with ESMTP id <0KX60043F2P96Q70@asmtp011.mac.com> for ip@v2.listbox.com; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 06:25:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail038 ([10.13.128.38]) by spool002.mac.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-8.01 (built Dec 16 2008; 32bit)) with ESMTP id <0KX600GNI2PZJN90@spool002.mac.com> for ip@v2.listbox.com; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 06:25:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [128.2.220.234] from webmail.me.com with HTTP; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:25:11 -0500 Received: from [ 63.69.72.215] from webmail.me.com with HTTP; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:25:11 -0500 Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:25:11 -0500 From: Dave Farber Subject: [IP] "O'Brien: Google joins the titans of Silicon Valley lobbying" X-Originating-IP: 128.2.220.234, 63.69.72.215 To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <89781274011780702096949616263929702218-Webmail@me.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx engine=5.0.0-0908210000 definitions=main-1002010094 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx engine=5.0.0-0908210000 definitions=main-1002010094 X-Listbox-UUID: A95758E2-0F3D-11DF-97D1-F9F2D53569AA X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 >From: "Seth Finkelstein" >To: , "ip" >Date: February 01, 2010 06:51:27 AM EST >Subject: "O'Brien: Google joins the titans of Silicon Valley lobbying" > >"O'Brien: Google joins the titans of Silicon Valley lobbying" >http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_14290625 > > Some choice excerpts: > >"In just five years, the search engine giant has gone from almost no >presence in Washington to spending more money on lobbying than all but >one other Silicon Valley company in 2009. And in the past three >months, Google topped all other valley spenders." > ... >"[the head of U.S. public policy for Google] said Google's efforts are >benign, aimed at educating politicians and making sure its users' >interests are being heard." > ... >"Sorry, but it is hubris to expect us to genuflect and accept that >Google is doing this purely for the benefit of mankind. Google is >scanning books because it expects to make money in some fashion down >the road." > >-- >Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer http://sethf.com >Infothought blog - http://sethf.com/infothought/blog/ >Interview: http://sethf.com/essays/major/greplaw-interview.php > > -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Mon Feb 1 15:57:14 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX600801KV8SZ@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 15:57:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX600801KV0SK@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Mon, 01 Feb 2010 15:57:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX600C012YPTC@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:30:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KX6009EE2YO1Z@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:30:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABE6CBD9F4 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:29:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8C30BD149 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:29:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33DCFB0E9B for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:28:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from asmtpout025.mac.com (asmtpout025.mac.com [17.148.16.100]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4488B0E9A for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:28:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from spool001.mac.com ([10.150.69.51]) by asmtp025.mac.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-8.01 (built Dec 16 2008; 32bit)) with ESMTP id <0KX6009BI2UTMN10@asmtp025.mac.com> for ip@v2.listbox.com; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 06:28:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail038 ([10.13.128.38]) by spool001.mac.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-8.01 (built Dec 16 2008; 32bit)) with ESMTP id <0KX6000I22V2OX40@spool001.mac.com> for ip@v2.listbox.com; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 06:28:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [128.2.220.234] from webmail.me.com with HTTP; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:28:14 -0500 Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:28:14 -0500 From: Dave Farber Subject: [IP] Re "Net Neutrality: Towards a Co-Regulatory Solution" X-Originating-IP: 128.2.220.234 To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <94019235354694329162991179654602955117-Webmail@me.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx engine=5.0.0-0908210000 definitions=main-1002010094 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx engine=5.0.0-0908210000 definitions=main-1002010094 X-Listbox-UUID: 15A7C78E-0F3E-11DF-B78D-93CF388718CD X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 >From: "Chris Marsden" >To: "Richard Bennett" >Cc: "dave@farber.net" , "ip" >Date: February 01, 2010 02:25:42 AM EST >Subject: Re: [IP] "Net Neutrality: Towards a Co-Regulatory Solution" > >This really is becoming farcical - Chapter 7 is about European mobile >networks, of which there are 4 majors: Vodafone, Telefonica, T-Mobile >and Orange. The latter three are owned by European former monopoly >providers, in Spain, Germany and France respectively. They have mopped >up mobile carriers in other countries, though the net neutral carrier >Hutchison 3 is still independent in the UK. > >The first half of that chapter examines the negotiated self-regulation >of mobile Internet content within walled gardens, before moving on to >consider how the US is excepted from the discussion because of the >European adoption of the Calling Party Pays model for interconnection. > >So that chapter is not about the United States except as an EXCEPTION to >the proposed solutions! > >The conclusion is that Europe will in all likelihood never have net >neutrality for mobile, and I suggest instead tighter interconnection and >roaming regulation. > >I hope that helps - the book is here: http://bit.ly/buQqi7 > >Brett Glass wrote: >> At 10:36 PM 1/31/2010, Richard Bennett wrote: >> >> >>> Kindly provide a quote on a *specific onerous regulation* and >>> leave all the bullshit character assassination at the door. We all >>> know you can rant. >>> >> >> We can't talk about the book at all if we "leave all the bullshit >> character assasination at the door," because the book is full of >> it. Against ISPs. The author also bases his claims that regulation >> is needed on the false (and widely disproved) premise that "The >> number of alternative ISPs is small and shrinking." No accurate >> conclusion can possibly follow. >> >> The author proposes many onerous regulations throughout. However, >> the worst part from my perspective is the section at P.194 and >> onward, where the author argues for "wireless network neutrality" >> regulations which are simply infeasible. They'd put WISPs right out >> of business. >> >> Go ahead and argue, Richard, but it's right there in black and >> white. Don't accuse me of ranting when it's the book that rants >> loud and long and advocates destroying my business. >> >> --Brett Glass >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Mon Feb 1 15:57:15 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX600801KV8SZ@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 15:57:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX600801KV0SK@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Mon, 01 Feb 2010 15:57:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX600D013AZJG@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:37:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KX6009IM3AZ1Z@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:37:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74B50BD72C for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:36:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 718C0BD2CB for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:36:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92247B77B4 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:35:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP02.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.197]) by a-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB36DB77B2 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:35:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from farbermac.isri.cmu.edu (FARBERMAC.ISRI.CMU.EDU [128.2.220.234]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o11EZsQE011152 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:35:54 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:35:56 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re "Net Neutrality: Towards a Co-Regulatory Solution" To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <2AE5B705-9C44-4BDD-8758-1E2B4864413B@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.197 X-Listbox-UUID: 1C130C7C-0F3F-11DF-AEF6-E091F34E757F X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <4B6681DD.5060600@essex.ac.uk> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: =46rom: Chris Marsden Date: February 1, 2010 2:25:17 AM EST To: Richard Bennett Cc: "dave@farber.net" , ip Subject: Re: [IP] "Net Neutrality: Towards a Co-Regulatory Solution" This really is becoming farcical - Chapter 7 is about European mobile= networks, of which there are 4 majors: Vodafone, Telefonica, T-Mobil= e and Orange. The latter three are owned by European former monopoly = providers, in Spain, Germany and France respectively. They have moppe= d up mobile carriers in other countries, though the net neutral carri= er Hutchison 3 is still independent in the UK. The first half of that chapter examines the negotiated self-regulatio= n of mobile Internet content within walled gardens, before moving on = to consider how the US is excepted from the discussion because of the= European adoption of the Calling Party Pays model for interconnectio= n. So that chapter is not about the United States except as an EXCEPTION= to the proposed solutions! The conclusion is that Europe will in all likelihood never have net n= eutrality for mobile, and I suggest instead tighter interconnection a= nd roaming regulation. I hope that helps - the book is here: http://bit.ly/buQqi7 Brett Glass wrote: > At 10:36 PM 1/31/2010, Richard Bennett wrote: >=20 > =20 >> Kindly provide a quote on a *specific onerous regulation* and leav= e all the bullshit character assassination at the door. We all know y= ou can rant. >> =20 >=20 > We can't talk about the book at all if we "leave all the bullshit c= haracter assasination at the door," because the book is full of it. A= gainst ISPs. The author also bases his claims that regulation is need= ed on the false (and widely disproved) premise that "The number of al= ternative ISPs is small and shrinking." No accurate conclusion can po= ssibly follow. >=20 > The author proposes many onerous regulations throughout. However, t= he worst part from my perspective is the section at P.194 and onward,= where the author argues for "wireless network neutrality" regulation= s which are simply infeasible. They'd put WISPs right out of business= . >=20 > Go ahead and argue, Richard, but it's right there in black and whit= e. Don't accuse me of ranting when it's the book that rants loud and = long and advocates destroying my business. >=20 > --Brett Glass >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > =20 -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Mon Feb 1 15:57:16 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX600801KV8SZ@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 15:57:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX600801KV0SK@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Mon, 01 Feb 2010 15:57:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX600D013ECN2@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:39:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KX6009CT3EC2K@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:39:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B6CDBD2E3 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:38:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1901DBD255 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:38:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD510B0EE8 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:38:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP03.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.198]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 928B4B0EE6 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:37:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from farbermac.isri.cmu.edu (FARBERMAC.ISRI.CMU.EDU [128.2.220.234]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o11Ebwum022281 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:37:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:38:04 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Apologies re bad mailings To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <692FE082-D57F-4B63-941E-BD3ED7E11EE8@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.198 X-Listbox-UUID: 659D9C54-0F3F-11DF-A556-FF26F0244880 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Apple ME.COM mailing seem to randomly decides to truncate the body of= some messages.=20 -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Mon Feb 1 15:57:17 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX600801KV8SZ@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 15:57:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX600801KV0SK@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Mon, 01 Feb 2010 15:57:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX600D013G3RY@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:41:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KX6009KM3G31Z@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:40:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.38]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E172BD300 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:40:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C5EABDE47 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:40:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAE74B0EEE for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:38:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP03.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.198]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83344B0EED for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:38:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from farbermac.isri.cmu.edu (FARBERMAC.ISRI.CMU.EDU [128.2.220.234]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o11Ebwun022281 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:38:35 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:38:41 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] REe Speaking of jobs To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <675908CF-8190-4334-91A1-E50BF1B26F3A@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_9B5e0nOkDWat9HBjl5/xeQ)" X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.198 X-Listbox-UUID: 7C33196C-0F3F-11DF-8481-BC1C6BC97F15 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <012d01caa30e$0b0161b0$21042510$@com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_9B5e0nOkDWat9HBjl5/xeQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Begin forwarded message: =46rom: "Amy Wohl" Date: February 1, 2010 2:13:21 AM EST To: Subject: RE: [IP] Speaking of jobs The ability of technology to eliminate jobs is a long time concern. = In fact the National Academy of Sciences addressed this in the mid-e= ighties, with a study that sought research and opinions from a broad = segment of the academic community, including many economists. The fi= nding (I was on the committee establishing and reviewing the study as= the crossover person =96 an economist who worked in the technology s= ector) was that there would be no technology effect on employment and= that, in fact, any effect would be more than compensated for by the = need for workers to support a growing economy with a population that = would not be growing workers fast enough. (Remember that when you= =92re making these calculations 18 years out you know exactly how man= y workers you=92ll have because they=92ve all been born already.) =20 Of course, there were two things that weren=92t considered, because s= tudies are not fortune telling. No one foresaw the Internet and the = unintentional consequences of its promoting a global economy (which m= ight have occurred anyway), where moving even highly paid professiona= l jobs might become much easier and indeed viewed as required by larg= e corporations, seeking to optimize their revenues and market shares. =20 We need to be unlike the recording industry (which wants things to st= ay the same and seeks to use technology to enforce a market which has= changed) and instead recognize the new facts and deal with them acco= rdingly. =20 Amy Wohl =20 Amy D. Wohl Editor, Amy Wohl's Opinions 40 Old Lancaster Road, #608 Merion, Station, PA 19066 610-667-4842 amy@wohl.com www.wohl.com =20 =20 =46rom: Dave Farber [mailto:dfarber@me.com]=20 Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 11:20 AM To: ip Subject: [IP] Speaking of jobs =20 =20 >From: "Bob Frankston" >To: >Date: January 15, 2010 11:02:23 AM EST >Subject: Speaking of jobs >=20 >=20 I?m reminded of the problem the sewing machine companies faced in the= 1800?s. Instead of relying on welfare women with no other prospects = could become seamstresses rather than resorting to more desperate mea= sures. The sewing machine was delayed for years while people tried to= solve the problem but it wasn?t until decades later when the modern = welfare system was accepted in the US. =20 Today?s focus on jobs is eerily reminiscent of that situation. Modern= inventions are eliminating many of the today?s jobs just as the sewi= ng machine did back then. How long before we address the issue rather= than saying blithely ?get a job?? Archives =09 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.141/2622 - Release Date: 01= /15/10 07:35:00 ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_9B5e0nOkDWat9HBjl5/xeQ) Content-type: multipart/related; boundary="Boundary_(ID_aWXrZs4p7XdKjP50hijxYA)"; type="text/html" --Boundary_(ID_aWXrZs4p7XdKjP50hijxYA) Content-type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

Begin forwarded message:

F= rom: "Amy Wohl" <amy@wohl.com= >
Date: <= /span>Febr= uary 1, 2010 2:13:21 AM EST
Subje= ct: RE: [IP] Speaking of jobs

 
Of course, there were two things that = weren=92t considered, because studies are not fortune telling.  = No one foresaw the Internet and the unintentional consequences of its= promoting a global economy (which might have occurred anyway), where= moving even highly paid professional jobs might become much easier a= nd indeed viewed as required by large corporations, seeking to optimi= ze their revenues and market shares.
<= span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> 
We need to be unl= ike the recording industry (which wants things to stay the same and s= eeks to use technology to enforce a market which has changed) and ins= tead recognize the new facts and deal with them accordingly.
 
Amy Wohl
 
Amy D. Wohl=
Editor, Amy W= ohl's Opinions
40 Old Lancaster Road, #608
Merion, Station, P= A 19066
610-667-4842
amy@wohl.com<= /o:p>
<= a href=3D"http://www.wohl.com" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration:= underline; ">www.wohl.com
 
 =
From:<= /b> Dave Farber [mail= to:dfarber@me.com] =
Sent: Fr= iday, January 15, 2010 11:20 AM
To: ip
Subject: [IP] Speaking of jobs=
 
 
>=
;From: "Bob Frankston" <Bob19-0501=
@bobf.frankston.com>
>To: <dave@farber.net><=
/o:p>
>Date: January 15, 2=
010 11:02:23 AM EST
> 
> 
I?m reminded of the problem the sewing machi= ne companies faced in the 1800?s. Instead of relying on welfare women= with no other prospects could become seamstresses rather than resort= ing to more desperate measures. The sewing machine was delayed for ye= ars while people tried to solve the problem but it wasn?t until decad= es later when the modern welfare system was accepted in the US.<= /o:p>
 
Today?s focus on jo= bs is eerily reminiscent of that situation. Modern inventions are eli= minating many of the today?s jobs just as the sewing machine did back= then. How long before we address the issue rather than saying blithe= ly ?get a job??
=
= =3D"Go to archives for ip" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: und= erline; ">Archives = itle=3D"RSS feed for ip" style=3D"color: blue; text-decoration: under= line; "><= img border=3D"0" width=3D"100" height=3D"100" id=3D"_x0000_i1025" alt= =3D"Image removed by sender." apple-width=3D"yes" apple-height=3D"yes= " src=3D"cid:~WRD000.jpg">
3D"Ima=

No virus found= in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version:= 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.141/2622 - Release Date: 01/15/10 0= 7:35:00


--Boundary_(ID_aWXrZs4p7XdKjP50hijxYA) Content-id: <~WRD000.jpg> Content-type: image/jpeg; name=~WRD000.jpg Content-transfer-encoding: BASE64 Content-disposition: inline; filename=~WRD000.jpg /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQEAYABgAAD/2wBDAAgGBgcGBQgHBwcJCQgKDBQNDAsLDBkS Ew8UHRofHh0aHBwgJC4nICIsIxwcKDcpLDAxNDQ0Hyc5PTgyPC4zNDL/2wBDAQkJ CQwLDBgNDRgyIRwhMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIy MjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjL/wAARCABkAGQDASIAAhEBAxEB/8QAHwAAAQUBAQEBAQEA AAAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoL/8QAtRAAAgEDAwIEAwUFBAQAAAF9AQIDAAQRBRIh MUEGE1FhByJxFDKBkaEII0KxwRVS0fAkM2JyggkKFhcYGRolJicoKSo0NTY3ODk6 Q0RFRkdISUpTVFVWV1hZWmNkZWZnaGlqc3R1dnd4eXqDhIWGh4iJipKTlJWWl5iZ mqKjpKWmp6ipqrKztLW2t7i5usLDxMXGx8jJytLT1NXW19jZ2uHi4+Tl5ufo6erx 8vP09fb3+Pn6/8QAHwEAAwEBAQEBAQEBAQAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoL/8QAtREA AgECBAQDBAcFBAQAAQJ3AAECAxEEBSExBhJBUQdhcRMiMoEIFEKRobHBCSMzUvAV YnLRChYkNOEl8RcYGRomJygpKjU2Nzg5OkNERUZHSElKU1RVVldYWVpjZGVmZ2hp anN0dXZ3eHl6goOEhYaHiImKkpOUlZaXmJmaoqOkpaanqKmqsrO0tba3uLm6wsPE xcbHyMnK0tPU1dbX2Nna4uPk5ebn6Onq8vP09fb3+Pn6/9oADAMBAAIRAxEAPwD3 +iiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKA CiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKA CiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKA CiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKA CiiigD//2Q== --Boundary_(ID_aWXrZs4p7XdKjP50hijxYA)-- --Boundary_(ID_9B5e0nOkDWat9HBjl5/xeQ)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Feb 2 20:08:04 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX800N01R58BJ@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:07:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX800N01R4YB8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:07:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX600I01P7SO2@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:31:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KX600I0KP7SMZ@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:31:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70596BD1F6 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:30:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D2A4BD1F3 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:30:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BA7DBB24C for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:30:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72515B0C44 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:27:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-qy0-f202.google.com (mail-qy0-f202.google.com [209.85.221.202]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2A04B0C43 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:27:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by qyk40 with SMTP id 40so2059724qyk.22 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 14:27:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.224.41.195 with SMTP id p3mr2381949qae.170.1265063229388; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 14:27:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.0.1.4? (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 23sm4081438qyk.3.2010.02.01.14.27.07 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 01 Feb 2010 14:27:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:26:08 -0500 From: Dave Farber Subject: [IP] Why is the Kindle sold in Zimbabwe, East Timor but not New Zealand? To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7D11) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7D11) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_yfYhkbSm9k2ytXYlErjWrQ)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=message-id :from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:date:references:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=+zLuZP5E1RL8hCtKk sOdoWq+4aI=; b=YCoRPt06KgDLjgHFKm0Htfay5V8TR9N5iRp88pF3MgTuLxVWO 3Y7ncYrVqd4piA03DVEhqUMaUioiwgoHaiDNQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:mime-version :subject:date:references; bh=L9gvSfIF8hmXYF7dn+DELopzYZJLDigYWA/sNN/6dwY=; b=E5gOx9dMasrAuCOI04R6RQTE7tRp4QZtEGfpfYr0wWetXekLUAfrfI2y1P31o9p6pN XngaloyE9RGhi17aMzEZqcXqDMiLVI+3HWQUaJdI1M93bOS6rH3nJsLfyRk+EfbP1dil xT3WdZGU9olSdnToPJbabeedMPFKEPwzG9EsM= X-Listbox-UUID: F0A1D838-0F80-11DF-99DC-95DD82BE5F22 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :x-mailer:mime-version:subject:date:references; b=L5VNNUbnBrC1dgHlipUAtcCkaBh7hC2rYUkybNkSiCfhxW1G5L1ECmfgG88QoFoiFS LKll9nGLE0faNmo90ifWwVlYpGJttByhJP/wYTznKizGjb4ezAhvDGg1oBGWWlmicM2i vTXXrrk/F4WFtt4UjGosQi/31cxaJzBs2IGwQ= --Boundary_(ID_yfYhkbSm9k2ytXYlErjWrQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Begin forwarded message: > From: Lance Wiggs > Date: February 1, 2010 4:39:36 PM EST > To: David Farber > Subject: Why is the Kindle sold in Zimbabwe, East Timor but not New > Zealand? > > Hi Dave > The Kindle is a superb device to have while traveling, and us Kiwis > are some of the best travelers around. > > However while the Kindle is available in a list of 100 countries or > so it is still not available in New Zealand. > The Kindle is sold in Zimbabwe, Rwanda and Russia - and locally in > Vanuwatu, Samoa and East Timor. But it is not available in New > Zealand - a country which topped Transparency International table of > corruption perception and is rated the 2nd easiest place to do > business by the World Bank's Doing Business group. > > Folks over here thought this was a temporary problem, to be solved > when the carriers and Amazon sorted out the finer details. However > it's now been months since the global launch and we've seen no > progress, nor any announcements. > > What is going on here? What can we do? > > Lance > Wellington, New Zealand > ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_yfYhkbSm9k2ytXYlErjWrQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE




Begin= forwarded message:

Fr= om: Lance Wiggs <lancew@gm= ail.com>
Date: February 1, 2010 4:39:36 PM EST
To: David Farber <dave@far= ber.net>
Subject: Why is the Kindle sold in Zimba= bwe, East Timor but not New Zealand?

Hi Dave
The Kindle is a superb device to have while traveling, and us Kiwis = are some of the best travelers around.

However while the Kindle is available in a list of 100 countries o= r so it is still not available in New Zealand.
The K= indle is sold in Zimbabwe, Rwanda and Russia - and locally in Vanuwat= u, Samoa and East Timor. But it is not available in New Zealand - a c= ountry which topped Transparency International table of corruption pe= rception and is rated the 2nd easiest place to do business by the Wor= ld Bank's Doing Business group.

Folk= s over here thought this was a temporary problem, to be solved when t= he carriers and Amazon sorted out the finer details. However it's now= been months since the global launch and we've seen no progress, nor = any announcements.

What is going on = here? What can we do?

LanceWellington, New Zealand

--Boundary_(ID_yfYhkbSm9k2ytXYlErjWrQ)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Feb 2 20:08:05 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX800N01R58BJ@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:07:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX800N01R4YB8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:07:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX600J01PM9CR@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:39:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.83]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KX600J0ZPM9A1@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:39:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6DEEBCE21 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:38:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.87]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A394ABCE20 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:38:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92E87BC1D5 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:38:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54278AD928 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:35:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-qy0-f202.google.com (mail-qy0-f202.google.com [209.85.221.202]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E404AD927 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:35:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by qyk40 with SMTP id 40so2063041qyk.22 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 14:35:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.224.104.66 with SMTP id n2mr2356603qao.267.1265063737808; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 14:35:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.0.1.4? (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 20sm4117765qyk.5.2010.02.01.14.35.35 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 01 Feb 2010 14:35:36 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:34:37 -0500 From: Dave Farber Subject: [IP] UN calls for global cyber treaty To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <4EA24C02-DA17-4149-8EEF-688D023F0B44@me.com> MIME-version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7D11) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7D11) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_Gma3bcGhhlizKZC+Y48xLQ)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=message-id :from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:date:references:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=uMH4i8xv0JKOpuPtn f+mW56YuZc=; b=XcmkxosKh+3kE6TohLmsZ5Wrj1KtWQtr1gjifwtc7f8wmZKbC A10htG5QP4bQO+qkyMm4CP2BI2Nfkf1/D3OXw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:mime-version :subject:date:references; bh=MP2GhoBrvYy8+cQyepefJrsQRjkxxtIjDJMYrvcHXos=; b=PQSxfDBz1aOlMxZZFUM1Obb1E+ycZgi8KxccQZ/wn564cLGRtozrHNS62xTS/l8pA4 lF4V2xPeuyk6LD9eCEktxOUOcJk2kfeg0BNZCQRbHYQzocZZIFbuYQgAXu+bYuLL318G 6U+NPQQsEx2vdUrW69k+Z3pzi5sVZt64vZzVo= X-Listbox-UUID: 1F64382C-0F82-11DF-B096-D791A52306B0 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :x-mailer:mime-version:subject:date:references; b=FX67sBB4EwfribZbT+oymvEEyEYeUYm537NATPNI7/TDeEPNpA60BBwoXMTrHfjcmx Vj3Il2ELZdcgqh1HqaWLW/wa6Y24W7kwqGBasWoBLLwfbYG7UMJbSGq0X8bSSPWYcMl4 9w4DStPH++NOMeCqSSnyWbkVob4nDgvsUZ2PU= --Boundary_(ID_Gma3bcGhhlizKZC+Y48xLQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Begin forwarded message: > From: Richard Forno > Date: February 1, 2010 5:27:28 PM EST > To: Infowarrior List > Cc: Dave Farber > Subject: UN calls for global cyber treaty > > > Once again, we hear rumblings of "internet drivers' liscenses as = =20 > part of any 'solutions' to 'protect' the net..... -rf > > > UN calls for global cyber treaty > http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/security/soa/UN-calls-for-global-cyber= -treaty/0,130061744,339300673,00.htm?omnRef=3D1337 > By AAP > 01 February 2010 10:07 AM > Tags: un, treaty, security, google, china, cyber, war, attack > The world needs a treaty to prevent cyber attacks becoming an all-= =20 > out war, the head of the main UN communications and technology = =20 > agency has warned. > > International Telcommunications Union secretary general Hamadoun = =20 > Toure gave his warning on Saturday at a World Economic Forum debate= =20 > where experts said nations must now consider when a cyber attack = =20 > becomes a declaration of war. > > With attacks on Google from China a major talking point in Davos, = =20 > Toure said the risk of a cyber conflict between two nations grows = =20 > every year. > > He proposed a treaty in which countries would engage not to make th= e =20 > first cyber strike against another nation. > > "A cyber war would be worse than a tsunami =E2=80=94 a catastrophe,= " the UN =20 > official said, highlighting examples such as attacks on Estonia las= t=20 > year. > > He proposed an international accord, adding: "The framework would = =20 > look like a peace treaty before a war." > > Countries should guarantee to protect their citizens and their righ= t =20 > to access to information, promise not to harbour cyber terrorists = =20 > and "should commit themselves not to attack another". > > John Negroponte, former director of US intelligence, said =20 > intelligence agencies in the major powers would be the first to = =20 > "express reservations" about such an accord. > > Susan Collins, a US Republican senator who sits on several senate = =20 > military and home affairs committees, said the prospect of a cyber = =20 > attack sparking a war was now being considered in the United States= . > > "If someone bombed the electric grid in our country and we saw the = =20 > bombers coming in it would clearly be an act of war. > > "If that same country uses sophisticated computers to knock out our= =20 > electricity grid, I definitely think we are getting closer to sayin= g =20 > it is an act of war," Collins said. > > Craig Mundie, chief research and strategy officer for Microsoft, = =20 > said "there are at least 10 countries in the world whose internet = =20 > capability is sophisticated enough to carry out cyber attacks ... = =20 > and they can make it appear to come from anywhere." > > "The internet is the biggest command and control centre for every = =20 > bad guy out there," he said. > > The head of online security company McAfee told another Davos debat= e =20 > on Friday that China, the United States, Russia, Israel and France = =20 > were among 20 countries locked in a cyberspace arms race and gearin= g =20 > up for possible internet hostilities. > > Mundie and other experts have said there is a growing need to polic= e =20 > the internet to clampdown on fraud, espionage and the spread of = =20 > viruses. > > "People don't understand the scale of criminal activity on the = =20 > internet. Whether criminal, individual or nation states, the =20 > community is growing more sophisticated," the Microsoft executive = =20 > said. > > "We need a kind of World Health Organisation for the internet," he = =20 > said. > > He also called fo a "driver's licence" for internet users. > > "If you want to drive a car you have to have a licence to say that = =20 > you are capable of driving a car, the car has to pass a test to say= =20 > it is fit to drive and you have to have insurance." ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_Gma3bcGhhlizKZC+Y48xLQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE




Begin= forwarded message:

Fr= om: Richard Forno <r= forno@infowarrior.org>
Date: February 1, 2010 5:27:2= 8 PM EST
To: Infowarrior List <infowarrior@attrition.org>
Cc: D= ave Farber <dave@farber.net= >
Subject: UN calls for global cyber treaty
=
Once again, we hear rumblings of "internet drivers' = liscenses as part of any 'solutions' to 'protect' the net.....  =  -rf


UN calls = for global cyber treaty
http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/security= /soa/UN-calls-for-global-cyber-treaty/0,130061744,339300673,00.htm?om= nRef=3D1337
By AAP
01 February 20= 10 10:07 AM
Tags: un, treaty, security, google, china= , cyber, war, attack
The world needs a treaty to prev= ent cyber attacks becoming an all-out war, the head of the main UN co= mmunications and technology agency has warned.

International Telcommunications Union secretary general Ha= madoun Toure gave his warning on Saturday at a World Economic Forum d= ebate where experts said nations must now consider when a cyber attac= k becomes a declaration of war.

With= attacks on Google from China a major talking point in Davos, Toure s= aid the risk of a cyber conflict between two nations grows every year= .

He proposed a treaty in which coun= tries would engage not to make the first cyber strike against another= nation.

"A cyber war would be worse= than a tsunami =E2=80=94 a catastrophe," the UN official said, highl= ighting examples such as attacks on Estonia last year.

He proposed an international accord, adding: "The = framework would look like a peace treaty before a war."

Countries should guarantee to protect their citiz= ens and their right to access to information, promise not to harbour = cyber terrorists and "should commit themselves not to attack another"= .

John Negroponte, former director o= f US intelligence, said intelligence agencies in the major powers wou= ld be the first to "express reservations" about such an accord.

Susan Collins, a US Republican senator wh= o sits on several senate military and home affairs committees, said t= he prospect of a cyber attack sparking a war was now being considered= in the United States.

"If someone b= ombed the electric grid in our country and we saw the bombers coming = in it would clearly be an act of war.

"If that same country uses sophisticated computers to knock out our= electricity grid, I definitely think we are getting closer to saying= it is an act of war," Collins said.

Craig Mundie, chief research and strategy officer for Microsoft, sai= d "there are at least 10 countries in the world whose internet capabi= lity is sophisticated enough to carry out cyber attacks ... and they = can make it appear to come from anywhere."
"The internet is the biggest command and control centre for ev= ery bad guy out there," he said.

The= head of online security company McAfee told another Davos debate on = Friday that China, the United States, Russia, Israel and France were = among 20 countries locked in a cyberspace arms race and gearing up fo= r possible internet hostilities.

Mun= die and other experts have said there is a growing need to police the= internet to clampdown on fraud, espionage and the spread of viruses.=

"People don't understand the scale = of criminal activity on the internet. Whether criminal, individual or= nation states, the community is growing more sophisticated," the Mic= rosoft executive said.

"We need a ki= nd of World Health Organisation for the internet," he said.
He also called fo a "driver's licence" for in= ternet users.

"If you want to drive = a car you have to have a licence to say that you are capable of drivi= ng a car, the car has to pass a test to say it is fit to drive and yo= u have to have insurance."
--Boundary_(ID_Gma3bcGhhlizKZC+Y48xLQ)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Feb 2 20:08:06 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX800N01R58BJ@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:07:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX800N01R4YB8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:07:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX600K01QHNXH@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:58:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KX600HB4QHMK5@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:58:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20D95BD6D9 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:57:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EF3ABD5A0 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:57:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0068B0F9F for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:56:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com (qw-out-2122.google.com [74.125.92.26]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6D4AB0F9E for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:56:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 9so650681qwb.27 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 14:56:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.224.116.196 with SMTP id n4mr2377127qaq.320.1265064988335; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 14:56:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.0.1.4? (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 20sm4131113qyk.5.2010.02.01.14.56.25 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 01 Feb 2010 14:56:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:55:27 -0500 From: Dave Farber Subject: [IP] UN calls for global cyber treaty To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7D11) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7D11) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_/CiIefS22TYyourb2tQWpg)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:mime-version :subject:date:references; bh=V32PCWAWzLGm9zO8trlctm3fPMKQVT0gxRzMSuOS/I4=; b=iDyyv0RbIFR/bNV6GnHqk0APZYTmqNovCimNXNmHLFpYpSvQTPkxxRZ1UTkjq9oEiw qzS/1niE28EzaIh/aK60/HtBl3RYoR5hl2P4aMCW1vcYfP2i12OmFniaRxOWIoqIFRQa xL4kJ6YCEw6hxoDMPmVJZaO7cs6l1x7qZdGF4= X-Listbox-UUID: 08D7F88E-0F85-11DF-9192-B9D9F06510C7 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <7d19cc9a1002011453u754f1ecck267db6ce0420eb02@mail.gmail.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :x-mailer:mime-version:subject:date:references; b=Havc4uMnpDaBLxor0+k6vP9OHtu10at06LwrgWp3wF4vV73XEUuUB2QXLjqGfdKPUN tuECIqOFaLU0PBtJO2zoXl2tiANKcL74fJESFvivHeXH1HKEBXXCG3E7v1Ma7otLAKOE TdZ4Ydd3PvL4BTa9D6XLIBEx1xOhEA0jlS/c0= --Boundary_(ID_/CiIefS22TYyourb2tQWpg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Begin forwarded message: > From: Rahul Tongia > Date: February 1, 2010 5:53:04 PM EST > To: dave@farber.net > Cc: ip > Subject: Re: [IP] UN calls for global cyber treaty > > Dave, > > If someone uses the Internet to take down your electricity grid, = =20 > that's not a very "smart grid"... > > One REALLY has to design cybersecurity up front - and this may mean= =20 > NOT using the public internet for anything even remotely critical, = =20 > or adding layers of security, access control, gateways, and =20 > segmentation. One can use internet *protocols* - that doesn't make= =20 > it the Internet. It's not that hard to create a separate network = =20 > for a smart grid - SCADA systems have been doing it for years. The= =20 > world's largest SCADA of its kind is actually up and running in = =20 > India (built by ABB). > > Physical layer threats (including wireless) are a bigger challenge = =20 > than a remote hacker should be. > > [I have an article submitted for publication to IEEE that uses the = =20 > difference between the Internet and internet to postulate how there= =20 > is actually an analogous difference between a smart grid and a Smar= t =20 > Grid. Just using smart grid technologies (e.g., a smart meter) = =20 > doesn't make a Smart Grid...copies available to folks on request] > > Rahul > > On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 4:04 AM, Dave Farber wrote= : > > > > > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: Richard Forno >> Date: February 1, 2010 5:27:28 PM EST >> To: Infowarrior List >> Cc: Dave Farber >> Subject: UN calls for global cyber treaty >> > >> >> Once again, we hear rumblings of "internet drivers' liscenses as = =20 >> part of any 'solutions' to 'protect' the net..... -rf >> >> >> UN calls for global cyber treaty >> http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/security/soa/UN-calls-for-global-cybe= r-treaty/0,130061744,339300673,00.htm?omnRef=3D1337 >> By AAP >> 01 February 2010 10:07 AM >> Tags: un, treaty, security, google, china, cyber, war, attack >> The world needs a treaty to prevent cyber attacks becoming an all-= =20 >> out war, the head of the main UN communications and technology = =20 >> agency has warned. >> >> International Telcommunications Union secretary general Hamadoun = =20 >> Toure gave his warning on Saturday at a World Economic Forum debat= e =20 >> where experts said nations must now consider when a cyber attack = =20 >> becomes a declaration of war. >> >> With attacks on Google from China a major talking point in Davos, = =20 >> Toure said the risk of a cyber conflict between two nations grows = =20 >> every year. >> >> He proposed a treaty in which countries would engage not to make = =20 >> the first cyber strike against another nation. >> >> "A cyber war would be worse than a tsunami =E2=80=94 a catastrophe= ," the U=20 >> N official said, highlighting examples such as attacks on Estonia = =20 >> last year. >> >> He proposed an international accord, adding: "The framework would = =20 >> look like a peace treaty before a war." >> >> Countries should guarantee to protect their citizens and their = =20 >> right to access to information, promise not to harbour cyber =20 >> terrorists and "should commit themselves not to attack another". >> >> John Negroponte, former director of US intelligence, said =20 >> intelligence agencies in the major powers would be the first to = =20 >> "express reservations" about such an accord. >> >> Susan Collins, a US Republican senator who sits on several senate = =20 >> military and home affairs committees, said the prospect of a cyber= =20 >> attack sparking a war was now being considered in the United State= s. >> >> "If someone bombed the electric grid in our country and we saw the= =20 >> bombers coming in it would clearly be an act of war. >> >> "If that same country uses sophisticated computers to knock out ou= r =20 >> electricity grid, I definitely think we are getting closer to = =20 >> saying it is an act of war," Collins said. >> >> Craig Mundie, chief research and strategy officer for Microsoft, = =20 >> said "there are at least 10 countries in the world whose internet = =20 >> capability is sophisticated enough to carry out cyber attacks ... = =20 >> and they can make it appear to come from anywhere." >> >> "The internet is the biggest command and control centre for every = =20 >> bad guy out there," he said. >> >> The head of online security company McAfee told another Davos = =20 >> debate on Friday that China, the United States, Russia, Israel and= =20 >> France were among 20 countries locked in a cyberspace arms race an= d =20 >> gearing up for possible internet hostilities. >> >> Mundie and other experts have said there is a growing need to = =20 >> police the internet to clampdown on fraud, espionage and the sprea= d =20 >> of viruses. >> >> "People don't understand the scale of criminal activity on the = =20 >> internet. Whether criminal, individual or nation states, the =20 >> community is growing more sophisticated," the Microsoft executive = =20 >> said. >> >> "We need a kind of World Health Organisation for the internet," he= =20 >> said. >> >> He also called fo a "driver's licence" for internet users. >> >> "If you want to drive a car you have to have a licence to say that= =20 >> you are capable of driving a car, the car has to pass a test to sa= y =20 >> it is fit to drive and you have to have insurance." > Archives =09 > ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_/CiIefS22TYyourb2tQWpg) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE




Begin= forwarded message:

Fr= om: Rahul Tongia <tong= ia.cmu@gmail.com>
Date: February 1, 2010 5:53:04 PM = EST
To: dave@farber.net
Cc: ip <ip@v2.listbox.com>
Subje= ct: Re: [IP] UN calls for global cyber treaty

Dave,

= If someone uses the Internet to take down your electricity grid, that= 's not a very "smart grid"...

One REALLY has to design cyberse= curity up front - and this may mean NOT using the public internet for= anything even remotely critical, or adding layers of security, acces= s control, gateways, and segmentation.  One can use internet *pr= otocols* - that doesn't make it the Internet.  It's not that har= d to create a separate network for a smart grid - SCADA systems have = been doing it for years.  The world's largest SCADA of its kind = is actually up and running in India (built by ABB). 

Physical layer threats (including wireless) are a bigger challeng= e than a remote hacker should be.

[I have an article submitte= d for publication to IEEE that uses the difference between the Intern= et and internet to postulate how there is actually an analogous diffe= rence between a smart grid and a Smart Grid.  Just using smart g= rid technologies (e.g., a smart meter) doesn't make a Smart Grid...co= pies available to folks on request]

Rahul

On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 4:= 04 AM, Dave Farber <dave@farber.net>= wrote:




Begin forwar= ded message:

From:= Richard Forno <rforno@infowarr= ior.org>
Date: February 1, 2010 5:27:28 PM EST
To: Infowarrio= r List <infowarrior@attriti= on.org>
Cc: Dave Farber <d= ave@farber.net>
Subject: UN calls for global cyber treaty

=
<= br>Once again, we hear rumblings of "internet drivers' liscense= s as part of any 'solutions' to 'protect' the net.....   -r= f


UN calls for global cyber tre= aty
http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/security/soa/UN-ca= lls-for-global-cyber-treaty/0,130061744,339300673,00.htm?omnRef=3D133= 7
By AAP
01 February 2010 10:07 AM
Tags: un, treaty, security, google, china, cyber, war, attack
The world needs a treaty to prevent cyber attacks becoming= an all-out war, the head of the main UN communications and technolog= y agency has warned.

International Telcommunications Union secretar= y general Hamadoun Toure gave his warning on Saturday at a World Econ= omic Forum debate where experts said nations must now consider when a= cyber attack becomes a declaration of war.

With attacks on Google from China a major talk= ing point in Davos, Toure said the risk of a cyber conflict between t= wo nations grows every year.

He prop= osed a treaty in which countries would engage not to make the first c= yber strike against another nation.

"A cyber war would be worse than a tsunami = =E2=80=94 a catastrophe," the UN official said, highlighting examples= such as attacks on Estonia last year.

He proposed an international accord, adding: "The framework would = look like a peace treaty before a war."

Countries should guarantee to protect their ci= tizens and their right to access to information, promise not to harbo= ur cyber terrorists and "should commit themselves not to attack anoth= er".

John Negroponte, former director of US intelli= gence, said intelligence agencies in the major powers would be the fi= rst to "express reservations" about such an accord.
<= /span>
Susan Collins, a US Republican senator who sits on several sena= te military and home affairs committees, said the prospect of a cyber= attack sparking a war was now being considered in the United States.=

"If someone bombed the electric grid in our country and we saw = the bombers coming in it would clearly be an act of war.

"If that same country uses sophisticated compute= rs to knock out our electricity grid, I definitely think we are getti= ng closer to saying it is an act of war," Collins said.

Craig Mundie, chief research and strategy offi= cer for Microsoft, said "there are at least 10 countries in the world= whose internet capability is sophisticated enough to carry out cyber= attacks ... and they can make it appear to come from anywhere."

"The internet is the biggest command and contr= ol centre for every bad guy out there," he said.

The head of online security company McAfee told another = Davos debate on Friday that China, the United States, Russia, Israel = and France were among 20 countries locked in a cyberspace arms race a= nd gearing up for possible internet hostilities.

Mundie and other experts have said there is a = growing need to police the internet to clampdown on fraud, espionage = and the spread of viruses.

"People d= on't understand the scale of criminal activity on the internet. Wheth= er criminal, individual or nation states, the community is growing mo= re sophisticated," the Microsoft executive said.

"We need a kind of World Health Organisation f= or the internet," he said.

He also c= alled fo a "driver's licence" for internet users.

"If you want to drive a car you have to have a= licence to say that you are capable of driving a car, the car has to= pass a test to say it is fit to drive and you have to have insurance= ."

--Boundary_(ID_/CiIefS22TYyourb2tQWpg)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Feb 2 20:08:07 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX800N01R58BJ@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:07:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX800N01R4YB8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:07:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX600M01R78D9@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 18:14:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.83]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KX600HLDR77K5@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 18:13:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F21D8BCB73 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 18:13:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.87]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF78ABCB72 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 18:13:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDFA3BC003 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 18:13:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC4E5B0E6A for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 18:09:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-vw0-f42.google.com (mail-vw0-f42.google.com [209.85.212.42]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B421B0E68 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 18:09:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by vws16 with SMTP id 16so1330014vws.15 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 15:09:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.89.205 with SMTP id f13mr6675785vcm.17.1265065791436; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 15:09:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.0.1.4? (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 37sm63407792vws.7.2010.02.01.15.09.49 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 01 Feb 2010 15:09:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 18:08:51 -0500 From: Dave Farber Subject: [IP] Phil Agre found To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <640C328E-5E29-41F9-8915-CD188AACC271@me.com> MIME-version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7D11) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7D11) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_pD194JA2JpM0RliGv9mIwg)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=message-id :from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:date:references:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=WTP+n6zr7IDRJoq/j AH1CPq0+Ko=; b=XTjcJAbbntfKLIDCx+NySN5sH1ewk+jc8cxMFuzrUc4SWzXtP jhYj6APL7Cna3f+dh4l4muojdBMaOfF94+Q8w== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:mime-version :subject:date:references; bh=jcVQ3L1QbSHwDI0r+MChO1zjZdnOFfuxCOofKgrQEnQ=; b=H3Mbot566diR5mtwEXXraa7nzCN67jl1WEYiMuh2R/P3a3qUKh2zFOS8pzH19hMQl4 D4J3DQWdfdPZptBu5LoAPHehtfqWY1yvxOiMcMY++UG3EsKefUnAJO4RLT0dbdkN/Ugl dMzzc4zfGtBfHQBOvtwLVOe0Ea2JVrqxZBhpA= X-Listbox-UUID: E7D84614-0F86-11DF-9BF6-EA7DB1AD5D3A X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <899466E0-8C8D-4603-9ABC-D9D609FD944B@me.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :x-mailer:mime-version:subject:date:references; b=g/Cw4mTUsrvxPYD6Vnz+BTmc/SfSH7fgHo9qeyZ0UkQYebJrt3cGdxm7TNOy7oATxY sdkhCrVS8u80xONMLcm8naGMFibrDVEsZKiDM/ODxNYJWWtTLYP0t0815B+eGFtJBfAi lgpTENDQMxrwrPnpaIntaSoW+F56inuk24wKQ= --Boundary_(ID_pD194JA2JpM0RliGv9mIwg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Begin forwarded message: > From: Eugene Spafford > Date: February 1, 2010 5:37:25 PM EST > To: ip , risks@csl.sri.com > Cc: David Farber > Subject: Phil Agre found > > > http://www.ucpd.ucla.edu/2009/09-2490.pdf > ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_pD194JA2JpM0RliGv9mIwg) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE




Begin= forwarded message:

Fr= om: Eugene Spafford <spaf@me.co= m>
Date: February 1, 2010 5:37:25 PM EST
To: ip <ip@v2.listbox.com&= gt;, risks@csl.sri.com
Cc: David Farber <dave@farber.net>
Subjec= t: Phil Agre found

--Boundary_(ID_pD194JA2JpM0RliGv9mIwg)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Feb 2 20:08:08 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX800N01R58BJ@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:07:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX800N01R4YB8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:07:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX600O01S9ORU@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 18:37:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KX600NB1S9NL5@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 18:36:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E703BD32F for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 18:36:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B5B3BD32E for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 18:36:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F36EABA2B5 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 18:36:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30640ADBA1 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 18:28:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-qy0-f202.google.com (mail-qy0-f202.google.com [209.85.221.202]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1989ADB9F for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 18:28:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by qyk40 with SMTP id 40so2082532qyk.22 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 15:28:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.224.55.71 with SMTP id t7mr2415961qag.256.1265066883451; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 15:28:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.0.1.4? (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 20sm4149226qyk.1.2010.02.01.15.28.00 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 01 Feb 2010 15:28:02 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 18:27:02 -0500 From: Dave Farber Subject: [IP] UN calls for global cyber treaty To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7D11) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7D11) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_nrevderESgzF/hgrL17nRA)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=message-id :from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:date:references:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=dk92lESKcIcnSGTSW aQ3rFyE2W4=; b=f+peS1dc2woSWzQBXvG85Qb1TM2Qbn0duOgVi1KOeAb+aZv5o f0AYvE81XJpw5VjvJQOVVOXT/L72axV1QoxSw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:mime-version :subject:date:references; bh=pe7eiHf3IZazdfMEAFCrVLJYF4nhoB4dn4Mbb/Bkstk=; b=NmR7T+oSRukP7LlGV8SZ3H3CQMKfWlPtkXVl+rgG5R0081y8to1e+yfgnZ28pY4+c6 /bbsuovaNI98TUbBtT5wqrMFHakM03+p7AN7LOMgMQj0CQzWj6idym5p70oHBPdZc0ng yC20DpOsWrJVRyjuLRon45l2WTykxk8nUAmgg= X-Listbox-UUID: 730F5C8E-0F89-11DF-BBCE-696CA52306B0 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <7E28945DF2357F4C83C2DD6A7C98905C14C4CF3A9D@DS-WIN2008-SBS.digitalsociety.local> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :x-mailer:mime-version:subject:date:references; b=YLzKInZSdHP8rojG/59g0i8QTywEbVkw6/fdlJhVU7Fwbc8Nu89jkvPminDpLmzG5i rriLR73SUfLFS5qBl8tQxw6GhYxfqMRBSxhnTo90RtunGPz4vObrwi++CGvlBbQSEiS+ uKXF8AXiUb74l2x7Z5yzXE9F4T1MxbBngKsL0= --Boundary_(ID_nrevderESgzF/hgrL17nRA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Begin forwarded message: > From: George Ou > Date: February 1, 2010 6:20:08 PM EST > To: "dave@farber.net" , ip , "t= ongia.cmu@gmail.com=20 > " > Subject: RE: [IP] UN calls for global cyber treaty > > I would beg to differ. Just because the SCADA network is separate = =20 > (or even running a different protocol other than IP) doesn=E2=80= =99t mean th=20 > at it isn=E2=80=99t accessible remotely. I=E2=80=99ve spoken to so= meone in =20 > charge of a major natural gas supplier in Canada last summer at a B= l=20 > ackHat party. They have Citrix remote access into their network an= d=20 > the machines inside the network have access to the SCADA network. = =20 > It would just be a matter of hijacking an internal computer and sni= f=20 > fing the rest of the network for credential information. The guy t= o=20 > ld me that if someone were to release the safety on their gas turbi= n=20 > es, it could cause them to run out of control and explode. > > > > Other times they have management systems attached to both the =20 > internal LAN and SCADA network. Those management systems are =20 > usually pretty easy to exploit. > > > > > > George > > > > From: Dave Farber [mailto:dave@farber.net] > Sent: Monday, February 01, 2010 2:55 PM > To: ip > Subject: [IP] UN calls for global cyber treaty > > > > > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Rahul Tongia > Date: February 1, 2010 5:53:04 PM EST > To: dave@farber.net > Cc: ip > Subject: Re: [IP] UN calls for global cyber treaty > > Dave, > > If someone uses the Internet to take down your electricity grid, = =20 > that's not a very "smart grid"... > > One REALLY has to design cybersecurity up front - and this may mean= =20 > NOT using the public internet for anything even remotely critical, = =20 > or adding layers of security, access control, gateways, and =20 > segmentation. One can use internet *protocols* - that doesn't make= =20 > it the Internet. It's not that hard to create a separate network = =20 > for a smart grid - SCADA systems have been doing it for years. The= =20 > world's largest SCADA of its kind is actually up and running in = =20 > India (built by ABB). > > Physical layer threats (including wireless) are a bigger challenge = =20 > than a remote hacker should be. > > [I have an article submitted for publication to IEEE that uses the = =20 > difference between the Internet and internet to postulate how there= =20 > is actually an analogous difference between a smart grid and a Smar= t =20 > Grid. Just using smart grid technologies (e.g., a smart meter) = =20 > doesn't make a Smart Grid...copies available to folks on request] > > Rahul > > On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 4:04 AM, Dave Farber wrote= : > > > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Richard Forno > Date: February 1, 2010 5:27:28 PM EST > To: Infowarrior List > Cc: Dave Farber > Subject: UN calls for global cyber treaty > > > Once again, we hear rumblings of "internet drivers' liscenses as = =20 > part of any 'solutions' to 'protect' the net..... -rf > > > UN calls for global cyber treaty > http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/security/soa/UN-calls-for-global-cyber= -treaty/0,130061744,339300673,00.htm?omnRef=3D1337 > By AAP > 01 February 2010 10:07 AM > Tags: un, treaty, security, google, china, cyber, war, attack > The world needs a treaty to prevent cyber attacks becoming an all-= =20 > out war, the head of the main UN communications and technology = =20 > agency has warned. > > International Telcommunications Union secretary general Hamadoun = =20 > Toure gave his warning on Saturday at a World Economic Forum debate= =20 > where experts said nations must now consider when a cyber attack = =20 > becomes a declaration of war. > > With attacks on Google from China a major talking point in Davos, = =20 > Toure said the risk of a cyber conflict between two nations grows = =20 > every year. > > He proposed a treaty in which countries would engage not to make th= e =20 > first cyber strike against another nation. > > "A cyber war would be worse than a tsunami =E2=80=94 a catastrophe,= " the UN =20 > official said, highlighting examples such as attacks on Estonia las= t=20 > year. > > He proposed an international accord, adding: "The framework would = =20 > look like a peace treaty before a war." > > Countries should guarantee to protect their citizens and their righ= t =20 > to access to information, promise not to harbour cyber terrorists = =20 > and "should commit themselves not to attack another". > > John Negroponte, former director of US intelligence, said =20 > intelligence agencies in the major powers would be the first to = =20 > "express reservations" about such an accord. > > Susan Collins, a US Republican senator who sits on several senate = =20 > military and home affairs committees, said the prospect of a cyber = =20 > attack sparking a war was now being considered in the United States= . > > "If someone bombed the electric grid in our country and we saw the = =20 > bombers coming in it would clearly be an act of war. > > "If that same country uses sophisticated computers to knock out our= =20 > electricity grid, I definitely think we are getting closer to sayin= g =20 > it is an act of war," Collins said. > > Craig Mundie, chief research and strategy officer for Microsoft, = =20 > said "there are at least 10 countries in the world whose internet = =20 > capability is sophisticated enough to carry out cyber attacks ... = =20 > and they can make it appear to come from anywhere." > > "The internet is the biggest command and control centre for every = =20 > bad guy out there," he said. > > The head of online security company McAfee told another Davos debat= e =20 > on Friday that China, the United States, Russia, Israel and France = =20 > were among 20 countries locked in a cyberspace arms race and gearin= g =20 > up for possible internet hostilities. > > Mundie and other experts have said there is a growing need to polic= e =20 > the internet to clampdown on fraud, espionage and the spread of = =20 > viruses. > > "People don't understand the scale of criminal activity on the = =20 > internet. Whether criminal, individual or nation states, the =20 > community is growing more sophisticated," the Microsoft executive = =20 > said. > > "We need a kind of World Health Organisation for the internet," he = =20 > said. > > He also called fo a "driver's licence" for internet users. > > "If you want to drive a car you have to have a licence to say that = =20 > you are capable of driving a car, the car has to pass a test to say= =20 > it is fit to drive and you have to have insurance." > > Archives Error! Filename not specified. > > Error! Filename not specified. > > > > Archives > > > > ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_nrevderESgzF/hgrL17nRA) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE




Begin= forwarded message:

Fr= om: George Ou <George.Ou@digitalsociety.org>
Date: February 1, 201= 0 6:20:08 PM EST
To: "da= ve@farber.net" <dave@farber= .net>, ip <ip@v2.listb= ox.com>, "tongia.cmu@g= mail.com" <tongia.cmu@= gmail.com>
Subject: RE: [IP] UN calls for global = cyber treaty

I would beg to differ.  Just because the SCADA ne= twork is separate (or even running a different protocol other than IP) doesn= =E2=80=99t mean that it isn=E2=80=99t accessible remotely.  I=E2=80=99ve spoken to so= meone in charge of a major natural gas supplier in Canada last summer at a BlackHat party. = They have Citrix remote access into their network and the machines inside the network = have access to the SCADA network.  It would just be a matter of hijac= king an internal computer and sniffing the rest of the network for credential information.  The guy told me that if someone were to release th= e safety on their gas turbines, it could cause them to run out of control and exp= lode.

 

Other times they have management systems attached to b= oth the internal LAN and SCADA network.  Those management systems are us= ually pretty easy to exploit.

 

 

George

 

From: Dave Farber [mailto:dave@farber.net]
Sent: Monday, February 01, 2010 2:55 PM
To: ip
Subject: [IP] UN calls for global cyber treaty

 




Begin forwarded message:

From: Ra= hul Tongia <tongia.cmu@gmail.com>
Date: February 1, 2010 5:53:04 PM EST
To: dave@farber.net
Cc: ip <ip@v2.listbox.com>
Subject: Re: [IP] UN calls for global cyber treaty=

Dave,

If someone uses the Internet to take down your electricity grid, that= 's not a very "smart grid"...

One REALLY has to design cybersecurity up front - and this may mean N= OT using the public internet for anything even remotely critical, or adding la= yers of security, access control, gateways, and segmentation.  One can u= se internet *protocols* - that doesn't make it the Internet.  It's = not that hard to create a separate network for a smart grid - SCADA systems ha= ve been doing it for years.  The world's largest SCADA of its kind is ac= tually up and running in India (built by ABB). 

Physical layer threats (including wireless) are a bigger challenge th= an a remote hacker should be.

[I have an article submitted for publication to IEEE that uses the di= fference between the Internet and internet to postulate how there is actually = an analogous difference between a smart grid and a Smart Grid.  Jus= t using smart grid technologies (e.g., a smart meter) doesn't make a Smart Grid...copies available to folks on request]

Rahul

On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 4:04 AM, Dave Farber &l= t;dave@farber.net> wrote:




Begin forwarded message:

From: Ri= chard Forno <rforno@infowarrior.org>=
Date: February 1, 2010 5:27:28 PM EST
To: Infowarrior List <infowarrior@attr= ition.org>
Cc: Dave Farber <dave@farber.net>
Subject: UN calls for global cyber treaty


Once again, we hear rumblings of "internet drivers' liscenses as part= of any 'solutions' to 'protect' the net.....   -rf


UN calls for global cyber treaty
http://www.zdne= t.com.au/news/security/soa/UN-calls-for-global-cyber-treaty/0,1300617= 44,339300673,00.htm?omnRef=3D1337
By AAP
01 February 2010 10:07 AM
Tags: un, treaty, security, google, china, cyber, war, attack
The world needs a treaty to prevent cyber attacks becoming an all-out= war, the head of the main UN communications and technology agency has warned.<= br>
International Telcommunications Union secretary general Hamadoun Tour= e gave his warning on Saturday at a World Economic Forum debate where experts sa= id nations must now consider when a cyber attack becomes a declaration of war.
With attacks on Google from China a major talking point in Davos, Tou= re said the risk of a cyber conflict between two nations grows every year.
He proposed a treaty in which countries would engage not to make the = first cyber strike against another nation.

"A cyber war would be worse than a tsunami =E2=80=94 a catastrophe," = the UN official said, highlighting examples such as attacks on Estonia last = year.

He proposed an international accord, adding: "The framework would loo= k like a peace treaty before a war."

Countries should guarantee to protect their citizens and their right = to access to information, promise not to harbour cyber terrorists and "should c= ommit themselves not to attack another".

John Negroponte, former director of US intelligence, said intelligenc= e agencies in the major powers would be the first to "express reservations" about such an accord.

Susan Collins, a US Republican senator who sits on several senate mil= itary and home affairs committees, said the prospect of a cyber attack sparking= a war was now being considered in the United States.

"If someone bombed the electric grid in our country and we saw the bo= mbers coming in it would clearly be an act of war.

"If that same country uses sophisticated computers to knock out our electricity grid, I definitely think we are getting closer to saying = it is an act of war," Collins said.

Craig Mundie, chief research and strategy officer for Microsoft, said "there are at least 10 countries in the world whose internet capabili= ty is sophisticated enough to carry out cyber attacks ... and they can make= it appear to come from anywhere."

"The internet is the biggest command and control centre for every bad= guy out there," he said.

The head of online security company McAfee told another Davos debate = on Friday that China, the United States, Russia, Israel and France were among 2= 0 countries locked in a cyberspace arms race and gearing up for possibl= e internet hostilities.

Mundie and other experts have said there is a growing need to police = the internet to clampdown on fraud, espionage and the spread of viruses.<= br>
"People don't understand the scale of criminal activity on the intern= et. Whether criminal, individual or nation states, the community is growi= ng more sophisticated," the Microsoft executive said.

"We need a kind of World Health Organisation for the internet," he said.

He also called fo a "driver's licence" for internet users.

"If you want to drive a car you have to have a licence to say that yo= u are capable of driving a car, the car has to pass a test to say it is fit= to drive and you have to have insurance."

Archives Error= ! Filename not specified.

<= a href=3D"http://www.listbox.com" target=3D"_blank">Error! Filename not specified.

 

Archives

<= a href=3D"http://www.listbox.com">

 

--Boundary_(ID_nrevderESgzF/hgrL17nRA)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Feb 2 20:08:09 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX800N01R58BJ@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:07:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX800N01R4YB8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:07:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX600801WJ7LI@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 20:09:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KX60069TWJ7P4@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 20:09:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25827BDD29 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 20:08:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 226FEBDD26 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 20:08:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1364FBB9E0 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 20:08:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C873BB7775 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 20:05:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by a-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1436B7772 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 20:05:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.9] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o12152km009888 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 20:05:02 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 20:05:02 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Lauren Weinstein -- Microsoft's Police State Vision? Exec Calls for Internet "Driver's Licenses" To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <8556CBC4-E332-475E-A63D-9ACD12B0940B@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=1pJRKNLctrA2DuAe0 FccMp2gpZ4=; b=WXd19Ddf9QRLagfHKPuZnL4cLcKxkrfbU7tP9Ds+MeQ0CkvgO X8CV7P5tFVitq/u0NoZNwsYOCpo9yjPdHgz8g== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: FF32D170-0F96-11DF-B2CB-FCA727720034 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <20100202001150.GA29273@vortex.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: =46rom: Lauren Weinstein Date: February 1, 2010 7:11:50 PM EST To: dave@farber.net Subject: Microsoft's Police State Vision? Exec Calls for Internet "Dr= iver's Licenses" Microsoft's Police State Vision?=20 Exec Calls for Internet "Driver's Licenses" http://lauren.vortex.com/archive/000676.html Greetings. About a week ago, in "Google and the Battle for the Soul of the Internet" ( http://lauren.vortex.com/archive/000673.html ) I noted that: Even here in the U.S., one of the most common Internet-related questions that I receive is also one of the most deeply disturbing= : Why can't the U.S. require an Internet "driver's license" so that there would be no way (ostensibly) to do anything anonymously on t= he Net? After I patiently explain why that would be a horrendous idea, bas= ed on basic principles of free speech as applied to the reality of th= e Internet -- most people who approached me with the "driver's licen= se" concept seem satisfied with my take on the topic, but the fact tha= t the question keeps coming up so frequently shows the depth of misplaced fears driven, ironically, by disinformation and the lack= of accurate information. So when someone who really should know better starts to push this sor= t of incredibly dangerous concept, it's time to bump up to orange alert at a minimum, and the trigger is no less than Craig Mundie, chief research and strategy officer for Microsoft. At the World Economic Forum in Davos two days ago, Mundie explicitly called for an "Internet Driver's License": "If you want to drive a car you have to have a license to say that you are capable of driving a car, the car has to pass a test to say it is fit to drive and you have to have insurance." ( http://bit.ly/aWJ2ed ) When applied to the Internet, this is the kind of logic that must gladden the heart of China's rulers, where Microsoft has already announced their continuing, happy compliance with the country's human-rights-abusive censorship regime. Dictators present and past would all appreciate the value of such a license -- let's call it an "IDL" -- by its ability to potentially provide all manner of benefits to current or would-be police states. After all, a license implies a goal of absolute identification and zero anonymity -- extremely valuable when trying to track down undesirable political and other free speech uttering undesirables. And while the reality of Internet technology suggests that such identity regimes would be vulnerable to technological bypass and fascinating "joe job" identity-diversion schemes, criminal penalties for their use could be kept sufficiently draconian to assure that mos= t of the population will be kowtowing compliantly. I used the term "police state" in the text and title above, and I don't throw this concept around loosely. The Internet has become integral to the most private and personal aspects of our lives -- health, commerce, and entertainment to name just a few on an ever expanding list. While there are clearly situations on the Internet where we want and/or need to be appropriately identified, there are many more where identification is not only unnecessary but could be incredibly intrusive and subject to enormous abuse. And I might add, it is also inevitable that serious crooks would find ways around any Internet identification systems -- one obvious technique would be to divert blame to innocent parties through manipulation and theft of associated IDL identification credentials. It was perhaps inevitable that the same "Hide! Here come the terrorists!" scare tactics used to promote easily thwarted naked airport scanners and domestic wiretapping operations, not to mention other PATRIOT and Homeland Security abuses, are now being repurposed in furtherance of gaining an iron grip on the communications technology -- the Internet -- that enables the truly free speech so terrifying to various governments around the world. It's true that some persons advocating police state IDL concepts are not themselves in any way inherently evil -- they can for example be well-meaning but incredibly short-sighted. However, I would be less than candid if I didn't admit that I'm disappointed, though not terribly surprised -- especially in light of Microsoft's explicit continuing support of Chinese censorship against human rights -- to hear a top Microsoft executive pushing a concept that is basic to making the Internet Police State a reality. In the final analysis, evil is as evil does. --Lauren-- Lauren Weinstein lauren@vortex.com Tel: +1 (818) 225-2800 http://www.pfir.org/lauren Co-Founder, PFIR - People For Internet Responsibility - http://www.pfir.org Co-Founder, NNSquad - Network Neutrality Squad - http://www.nnsquad.org Founder, GCTIP - Global Coalition=20 for Transparent Internet Performance - http://www.gctip.org Founder, PRIVACY Forum - http://www.vortex.com Member, ACM Committee on Computers and Public Policy Lauren's Blog: http://lauren.vortex.com Twitter: https://twitter.com/laurenweinstein -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Feb 2 20:08:10 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX800N01R58BJ@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:07:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX800N01R4YB8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:07:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX700I0126PWF@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:11:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KX700FCW26P6H@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:11:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08E06BDF75 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:10:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05884BDF73 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:10:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAB4ABA232 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:10:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14C8EB0BA1 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:07:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD5C9B0BA0 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:07:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.9] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1237AFo011121 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:07:10 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:07:09 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] interconnecting data To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <8A7D1642-5FF3-4B51-B5FE-828D067FF7EC@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=LUgXpdaGCE+O7ugyO kPlx/JgHs4=; b=VVJYkFLjsRJ2/A7Fp6DDeZH889/eLYIeXbpFgfYBYyfSH4nfs vaaVB1WAFx+QffXVoKH36z2Nx8lctjrWY1T4Q== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 0F3ABA68-0FA8-11DF-9D63-E1CF2E4CF8EF X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <8f928261002011801k3e6d6265ib70063fb72450cfa@mail.gmail.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: "James J. O'Donnell" Date: February 1, 2010 9:01:56 PM EST To: David Farber Subject: interconnecting data Dave, I entered a NYC office building the other day and as usual nowadays had to sign in and get a little badge printed out for me, which authorized me through the turnstile. A wrinkle I hadn't noticed before: guy took my driver's license (from another state) and dipped it in a reader slot, studied his screen readout a bit but didn't type anything, just pushed a couple of buttons, and out printed a badge with my name correctly spelled. Suggests at least that they're reading driver's license data directly; now, question is, if there were a police officer in Kansas (a state I've never visited or had business in) who really wanted to talk to me, would he know by now that I was in that building the other day? The capacity is certainly there. Jim O'Donnell -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Feb 2 20:08:11 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX800N01R58BJ@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:07:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX800N01R4YB8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:07:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX700J012924D@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:12:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KX700FH929283@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:12:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AD7ABD1C3 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:11:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56ADBBD1C2 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:11:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46A1EBAE2D for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:11:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F19BB0900 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:08:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90A6CB08FF for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:08:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.9] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1238BdP011154 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:08:11 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:08:10 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: UN calls for global cyber treaty To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <795FE449-46F2-47E4-9FF0-5710A291888E@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_rJIZsiBf6YHO44b9e8S0kw)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:subject:date:references:to:message-id:mime-version :reply-to:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s= launch; bh=Qhka2r6VyxA58tJo1IlEjrRVUZ4=; b=d1dMbkSKFnYaSBbYlRQMo cTp0ja6eofJDdzHJjmffFNkzdNZNd6QqaDl6mzG79dmG5ZUA8Tbz0GQuZJAZCGP/ w== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 341EF10A-0FA8-11DF-8139-EA15CECEA058 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_rJIZsiBf6YHO44b9e8S0kw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Begin forwarded message: =46rom: Doug Humphrey Date: February 1, 2010 9:11:41 PM EST To: dave@farber.net Cc: "ip" Subject: Re: [IP] UN calls for global cyber treaty >=20 > Begin forwarded message: >=20 >> From: Rahul Tongia >> Date: February 1, 2010 5:53:04 PM EST >> To: dave@farber.net >> Cc: ip >> Subject: Re: [IP] UN calls for global cyber treaty >>=20 >> Dave, >>=20 >> If someone uses the Internet to take down your electricity grid, t= hat's not a very "smart grid"... >>=20 >> One REALLY has to design cybersecurity up front - and this may mea= n NOT using the public internet for anything even remotely critical, = or adding layers of security, access control, gateways, and segmentat= ion. One can use internet *protocols* - that doesn't make it the Int= ernet. It's not that hard to create a separate network for a smart g= rid - SCADA systems have been doing it for years. The world's larges= t SCADA of its kind is actually up and running in India (built by ABB= ). =20 As everything in life seems to go in cycles, the "public/private netw= ork" oscillation is a common one - in this case, the urge to put it all "o= n the net" is fueled by ease of access and lowered expense - isn't it great= that we can access the control system from anywhere? and we don't have= =20 the expense and effort of administering a separate network... and it= just looks so much more MODERN. We all want to look modern, right? Those with backgrounds in risk assessment and mission critical operat= ions generally understand the other side of the shiny coin, but alas, some= times those engaged in policy, and management, tend to see all of that desc= ribed=20 above as "progress" and arguments against it as "obstructionist" or p= erhaps luddite-ism. >>=20 >> Physical layer threats (including wireless) are a bigger challenge= than a remote hacker should be.=20 all layers have their threats - its all risk... >>=20 >> [I have an article submitted for publication to IEEE that uses the= difference between the Internet and internet to postulate how there = is actually an analogous difference between a smart grid and a Smart = Grid. Just using smart grid technologies (e.g., a smart meter) doesn= 't make a Smart Grid...copies available to folks on request] please! love to read it! doug >>=20 >> Rahul >>=20 >> On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 4:04 AM, Dave Farber wrot= e: >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Begin forwarded message: >>=20 >>> From: Richard Forno >>> Date: February 1, 2010 5:27:28 PM EST >>> To: Infowarrior List >>> Cc: Dave Farber >>> Subject: UN calls for global cyber treaty >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Once again, we hear rumblings of "internet drivers' liscenses as = part of any 'solutions' to 'protect' the net..... -rf >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> UN calls for global cyber treaty >>> http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/security/soa/UN-calls-for-global-cyb= er-treaty/0,130061744,339300673,00.htm?omnRef=3D1337 >>> By AAP >>> 01 February 2010 10:07 AM >>> Tags: un, treaty, security, google, china, cyber, war, attack >>> The world needs a treaty to prevent cyber attacks becoming an all= -out war, the head of the main UN communications and technology agenc= y has warned. >>>=20 >>> International Telcommunications Union secretary general Hamadoun = Toure gave his warning on Saturday at a World Economic Forum debate w= here experts said nations must now consider when a cyber attack becom= es a declaration of war. >>>=20 >>> With attacks on Google from China a major talking point in Davos,= Toure said the risk of a cyber conflict between two nations grows ev= ery year. >>>=20 >>> He proposed a treaty in which countries would engage not to make = the first cyber strike against another nation. >>>=20 >>> "A cyber war would be worse than a tsunami =97 a catastrophe," th= e UN official said, highlighting examples such as attacks on Estonia = last year. >>>=20 >>> He proposed an international accord, adding: "The framework would= look like a peace treaty before a war." >>>=20 >>> Countries should guarantee to protect their citizens and their ri= ght to access to information, promise not to harbour cyber terrorists= and "should commit themselves not to attack another". >>>=20 >>> John Negroponte, former director of US intelligence, said intelli= gence agencies in the major powers would be the first to "express res= ervations" about such an accord. >>>=20 >>> Susan Collins, a US Republican senator who sits on several senate= military and home affairs committees, said the prospect of a cyber a= ttack sparking a war was now being considered in the United States. >>>=20 >>> "If someone bombed the electric grid in our country and we saw th= e bombers coming in it would clearly be an act of war. >>>=20 >>> "If that same country uses sophisticated computers to knock out o= ur electricity grid, I definitely think we are getting closer to sayi= ng it is an act of war," Collins said. >>>=20 >>> Craig Mundie, chief research and strategy officer for Microsoft, = said "there are at least 10 countries in the world whose internet cap= ability is sophisticated enough to carry out cyber attacks ... and th= ey can make it appear to come from anywhere." >>>=20 >>> "The internet is the biggest command and control centre for every= bad guy out there," he said. >>>=20 >>> The head of online security company McAfee told another Davos deb= ate on Friday that China, the United States, Russia, Israel and Franc= e were among 20 countries locked in a cyberspace arms race and gearin= g up for possible internet hostilities. >>>=20 >>> Mundie and other experts have said there is a growing need to pol= ice the internet to clampdown on fraud, espionage and the spread of v= iruses. >>>=20 >>> "People don't understand the scale of criminal activity on the in= ternet. Whether criminal, individual or nation states, the community = is growing more sophisticated," the Microsoft executive said. >>>=20 >>> "We need a kind of World Health Organisation for the internet," h= e said. >>>=20 >>> He also called fo a "driver's licence" for internet users. >>>=20 >>> "If you want to drive a car you have to have a licence to say tha= t you are capable of driving a car, the car has to pass a test to say= it is fit to drive and you have to have insurance." >> Archives =09=20 >>=20 > Archives =09=20 ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_rJIZsiBf6YHO44b9e8S0kw) Content-type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

<= div>Begin forwarded message:

From: Doug Humphrey <doug@joss.com>
=
Date: February 1, 2010 9:11= :41 PM EST
To: <= /b>= dave@farber.net
Subject: Re: [IP] UN calls = for global cyber treaty


Begin forwarded mes= sage:

From: Rahul = Tongia <tongia.cmu@gmail.c= om>
Date: February 1, 2010 5:53:04 PM EST
To:<= /b> dave@farber.net
Cc: ip <ip@v2.listbox.com>
Subject: Re:= [IP] UN calls for global cyber treaty

=
Dave,

If someone use= s the Internet to take down your electricity grid, that's not a very = "smart grid"...

One REALLY has to design cybersecurity up fron= t - and this may mean NOT using the public internet for anything even= remotely critical, or adding layers of security, access control, gat= eways, and segmentation.  One can use internet *protocols* - tha= t doesn't make it the Internet.  It's not that hard to create a = separate network for a smart grid - SCADA systems have been doing it = for years.  The world's largest SCADA of its kind is actually up= and running in India (built by ABB). 

As everything in life seems to go in = cycles, the "public/private network"
oscillation is a commo= n one - in this case, the urge to put it all "on the
net" i= s fueled by ease of access and lowered expense - isn't it great that<= /div>
we can access the control system from anywhere?  = and we don't have 
the expense and effort of administe= ring a separate network...  and it just
looks so much = more MODERN.  We all want to look modern, right?

<= /div>
Those with backgrounds in risk assessment and mission criti= cal operations
generally understand the other side of the s= hiny coin, but alas, sometimes
those engaged in policy= , and management, tend to see all of that described 
<= div>above as "progress" and arguments against it as "obstructionist" = or perhaps
luddite-ism.


Phy= sical layer threats (including wireless) are a bigger challenge than = a remote hacker should be.
=

all layers have their threats - its all risk...
<= div>

[I have an article submitted for publication= to IEEE that uses the difference between the Internet and internet t= o postulate how there is actually an analogous difference between a s= mart grid and a Smart Grid.  Just using smart grid technologies = (e.g., a smart meter) doesn't make a Smart Grid...copies available to= folks on request]

=
please!  love to read it!

doug


Rahul

On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 4:04 AM, Dave Farber <dave@farber.net> wrote:




Begin forwarded message:

From: Richard Forno <rforno@infowarrior.org>
D= ate: February 1, 2010 5:27:28 PM EST
To: Infowarrior Li= st <infowarrior@attriti= on.org>
Cc: Dave Farber <d= ave@farber.net>
Subject: UN calls for global cyb= er treaty


Once again, we hear rumblings o= f "internet drivers' liscenses as part of any 'solutions' to 'protect= ' the net.....   -rf


UN calls for global cyber treaty
h= ttp://www.zdnet.com.au/news/security/soa/UN-calls-for-global-cyber-tr= eaty/0,130061744,339300673,00.htm?omnRef=3D1337
= By AAP
01 February 2010 10:07 AM
Tags= : un, treaty, security, google, china, cyber, war, attack
<= span>The world needs a treaty to prevent cyber attacks becoming an al= l-out war, the head of the main UN communications and technology agen= cy has warned.

International Telcom= munications Union secretary general Hamadoun Toure gave his warning o= n Saturday at a World Economic Forum debate where experts said nation= s must now consider when a cyber attack becomes a declaration of war.=

With attacks on Google from China = a major talking point in Davos, Toure said the risk of a cyber confli= ct between two nations grows every year.

<= span>He proposed a treaty in which countries would engage not to make= the first cyber strike against another nation.

"A cyber war would be worse than a tsunami =97 a catastr= ophe," the UN official said, highlighting examples such as attacks on= Estonia last year.

He proposed an i= nternational accord, adding: "The framework would look like a peace t= reaty before a war."

Countries shou= ld guarantee to protect their citizens and their right to access to i= nformation, promise not to harbour cyber terrorists and "should commi= t themselves not to attack another".

John Negroponte, former director of US intelligence, said intellige= nce agencies in the major powers would be the first to "express reser= vations" about such an accord.

Susa= n Collins, a US Republican senator who sits on several senate militar= y and home affairs committees, said the prospect of a cyber attack sp= arking a war was now being considered in the United States.
"If someone bombed the electric grid in our = country and we saw the bombers coming in it would clearly be an act o= f war.

"If that same country uses so= phisticated computers to knock out our electricity grid, I definitely= think we are getting closer to saying it is an act of war," Collins = said.

Craig Mundie, chief research = and strategy officer for Microsoft, said "there are at least 10 count= ries in the world whose internet capability is sophisticated enough t= o carry out cyber attacks ... and they can make it appear to come fro= m anywhere."

"The internet is the b= iggest command and control centre for every bad guy out there," he sa= id.

The head of online security comp= any McAfee told another Davos debate on Friday that China, the United= States, Russia, Israel and France were among 20 countries locked in = a cyberspace arms race and gearing up for possible internet hostiliti= es.

Mundie and other experts have s= aid there is a growing need to police the internet to clampdown on fr= aud, espionage and the spread of viruses.

= "People don't understand the scale of criminal activity on the = internet. Whether criminal, individual or nation states, the communit= y is growing more sophisticated," the Microsoft executive said.

"We need a kind of World Health Organisa= tion for the internet," he said.

He = also called fo a "driver's licence" for internet users.

"If you want to drive a car you have to have a l= icence to say that you are capable of driving a car, the car has to p= ass a test to say it is fit to drive and you have to have insurance."=
<= td align=3D"right" valign=3D"top">
= Archives
<= br>


--Boundary_(ID_rJIZsiBf6YHO44b9e8S0kw)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Feb 2 20:08:12 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX800N01R58BJ@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:07:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX800N01R4YB8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:07:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX700J0129A4X@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:12:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KX700FHK29A83@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:12:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CF65BD362 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:11:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AD19BD360 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:11:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 573ABBAF64 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:11:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E601EB0BB9 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:08:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9714BB0BB8 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:08:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.9] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o1238BdQ011154 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:08:44 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:08:43 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: UN calls for global cyber treaty To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <995384A2-B46C-4DDC-805E-B83F41934A92@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=Vd1s1TLQPLNHsDznI YlTu+Bezuc=; b=TlSZGRP+Y4K3/7WG96zmLMcMe0ry34k2ulSEvKmOs9sF20nAG GNVziOBCjwLqv6yZDX+YRUld8bumwSGhL84QA== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 46955AEA-0FA8-11DF-8BFE-F48A45116AAD X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <4B678324.8060102@cavebear.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: =46rom: Karl Auerbach Date: February 1, 2010 8:43:00 PM EST To: dave@farber.net, tongia.cmu@gmail.com Cc: ip Subject: Re: [IP] UN calls for global cyber treaty Reply-To: karl@cavebear.com On 02/01/2010 02:55 PM, Dave Farber wrote: >> *From:* Rahul Tongia > >> *Date:* February 1, 2010 5:53:04 PM EST >> *Subject:* *Re: [IP] UN calls for global cyber treaty* >> One REALLY has to design cybersecurity up front - and this may mea= n >> NOT using the public internet for anything even remotely critical,= or >> adding layers of security, access control, gateways, and segmentat= ion. >> One can use internet *protocols* - that doesn't make it the Intern= et. >> It's not that hard to create a separate network for a smart grid - >> SCADA systems have been doing it for years. The world's largest SC= ADA >> of its kind is actually up and running in India (built by ABB). While I agree that it is a good idea to keep important infrastructure= s clearly separate from the main body of the internet as a practical = matter there will almost always be leakage as a result of human error= , the introduction of new equipment (and the need to install the late= st updates to that equipment), and from ad hoc test rigs used when wo= rking around problems. But in addition, even well run and isolated networks can collapse. I= 've seen it happen. A typical cause is the introduction of a new piece of equipment that = speaks a more extensive or newer dialect of a protocol. I've seen ol= der equipment go bizonkers (that's a word of art in the network repai= r biz) when it gets hit with packets from the new equipment. In one case I saw a bit of new gear that decided, quite legitimately,= that when it fragmented an outgoing IPv4 packet that it would send t= he last fragment first (the argument to do this has to do with the ab= ility of the receiver to have earlier knowledge of how much reassembl= y space it might want to set aside; such information is available onl= y from the last IPv4 fragment.) Trouble began when that new box was = introduced onto a net was full of brand X gear. The Brand X gear had= been running smoothly for a year or more but it had a latent fault -= it would promptly up-and-crash when it got a last-fragment-first cha= in of fragments - but that fault never surfaced until the new box cam= e to town. The point I want to make is this - there is a lot of code out there o= n the net that is very poorly written and may never have been tested = in circumstances beyond the developer's pristine lab network. Such c= ode may well be code that is waiting to go "boom". My company (InterWorking Labs) is in the business of testing the robu= stness of certain internet protocols, so we see this kind of stuff fa= irly frequently. Unfortunately the internet-software business has inherited a tendency= to do only minimal or limited conformance testing without much conce= rn for the flip-side, the susceptibility of the code to error or fail= ure when odd (sometimes RFC legit, sometimes not) packets arrive. =09--karl-- -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Feb 2 20:08:13 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX800N01R58BJ@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:07:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX800N01R4YB8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:07:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX700O01UJUT0@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 08:23:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KX700O32UJUCM@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 08:23:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.38]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E8C8BE07E for ; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 08:23:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97669BE4C5 for ; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 08:23:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63D3BB0DA9 for ; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 08:22:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from asmtpout015.mac.com (asmtpout015.mac.com [17.148.16.90]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 428E9B0D9D for ; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 08:22:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from spool004.mac.com ([10.150.69.54]) by asmtp015.mac.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-8.01 (built Dec 16 2008; 32bit)) with ESMTP id <0KX700J2HUGC7710@asmtp015.mac.com> for ip@v2.listbox.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 05:21:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail004 ([10.13.128.4]) by spool004.mac.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-8.01 (built Dec 16 2008; 32bit)) with ESMTP id <0KX7000BUUG9RU40@spool004.mac.com> for ip@v2.listbox.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 05:21:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [67.165.107.113] from webmail.me.com with HTTP; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 08:21:45 -0500 Received: from [ 96.17.171.186] from webmail.me.com with HTTP; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 08:21:45 -0500 Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 08:21:45 -0500 From: Dave Farber Subject: [IP] Re: UN calls for global cyber treaty X-Originating-IP: 67.165.107.113, 96.17.171.186 To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <52882246592992039867569034944491385669-Webmail@me.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx engine=5.0.0-0908210000 definitions=main-1002020067 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 ipscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx engine=5.0.0-0908210000 definitions=main-1002020067 X-Listbox-UUID: F56271FC-0FFD-11DF-AF36-C5D62C3EA9B1 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 >From: "Christian Huitema" >To: "dave@farber.net" , "ip" >Date: February 02, 2010 01:09:01 AM EST >Subject: RE: [IP] Re: UN calls for global cyber treaty > >> As everything in life seems to go in cycles, the "public/private n= etwork" >> oscillation is a common one - in this case, the urge to put it all= "on the >> net" is fueled by ease of access and lowered expense - isn't it gr= eat that >> we=A0can access the control system from anywhere? =A0and we don't = have=A0 >> the expense and effort of administering a separate network... = =A0and it just >> looks so much more MODERN. =A0We all want to look modern, right? > >But running a private network, supposedly isolated, is not without i= ts own risks. Because the public infrastructure is subject to more at= tacks, it evolves faster, putting private infrastructure at risk of b= ecoming obsolete sooner. Also, the private network is typically desig= n with a crunchy crust and soft core approach, that can lead to catas= trophic failures. Nothing replaces a good design. And a good design h= as to follow sound principles like attack surface reduction or defens= e in depth... > >-- Christian Huitema > > > > > > -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Feb 2 20:08:14 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX800N01R58BJ@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:07:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX800N01R4YB8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:07:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX800O014HURH@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 11:58:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KX800O2C4HUKP@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 11:58:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F2BCBDA7D for ; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 11:57:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CA92BDA7C for ; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 11:57:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1975DBA6A4 for ; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 11:57:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC715AED85 for ; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 11:52:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-vw0-f42.google.com (mail-vw0-f42.google.com [209.85.212.42]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C0D8AED84 for ; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 11:52:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by vws16 with SMTP id 16so90074vws.15 for ; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 08:52:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.122.7 with SMTP id j7mr8209997vcr.114.1265129541431; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 08:52:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?128.237.241.35? (CMU-356848.WV.CC.CMU.EDU [128.237.241.35]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 42sm1269749vws.12.2010.02.02.08.52.19 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 02 Feb 2010 08:52:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 11:51:22 -0500 From: Dave Farber Subject: [IP] Now Showing at the Security Theater To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7D11) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7D11) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_GirbJrnch/hriNYkNzqZBw)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=message-id :from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:date:references:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=0qRrDTyL8LrTuMgme TjM1kXYM4o=; b=hdiBAcP255fWhbm/+UR+pMjqw9asYSekIRoSe4/SDz+rTISyS R+/2g4VvCDfeqUXMEryj4E364EZ2XhJXc/Xiw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:mime-version :subject:date:references; bh=xqctu2D2+zbmPjO3WmHB0i0d9WMPc53pR+E4OPzsuuM=; b=nPdGoECZkr1DzS0qhh8rTnTK7wVcwebEXc7u0ChXa2seNjfpq5vKhCQpUlxwKZr4dQ 9JrIqJ0HtYHF6SJ4ab2bajQF8zVDvlP15ozMnKhdW5A92Fa92Xng9TayVZKP4IO691MG D8q8OZM9tnJRRjmznlvsWyIPS9kTZ88hGUgtY= X-Listbox-UUID: 5B395EE2-101B-11DF-B0A9-7847A52306B0 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :x-mailer:mime-version:subject:date:references; b=DVvEZKMuGwwZjJF6lanWpA8xoLCL1NM1E2Q5LvUJYIa7fTpkhqdtdLFMBtNtvGo4on 7zJd9379MtlQJiUWhHfyKcrMbGT7S00QtT+HokjsaLFf+VF3J63S+UE+nErYLDK1hKFb bKLyuyFi+J1scgTSV2mXzYgG6ZX9bRluqKaQE= --Boundary_(ID_GirbJrnch/hriNYkNzqZBw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Begin forwarded message: > From: Randall Webmail > Date: February 2, 2010 11:48:23 AM EST > To: johnmacsgroup@yahoogroups.com, dewayne@warpspeed.com, dave@farber.net > Subject: Now Showing at the Security Theater > > passengers naked, she ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_GirbJrnch/hriNYkNzqZBw) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT




Begin forwarded message:

From: Randall Webmail <rvh40@insightbb.com>
Date: February 2, 2010 11:48:23 AM EST
To: johnmacsgroup@yahoogroups.com, dewayne@warpspeed.com, dave@farber.net
Subject: Now Showing at the Security Theater

passengers naked, she
--Boundary_(ID_GirbJrnch/hriNYkNzqZBw)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Feb 2 20:08:15 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX800N01R58BJ@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:07:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX800N01R4YB8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:07:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX800J01CD1M8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 14:48:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KX800GGUCD1CX@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 14:48:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.38]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B686BEDCB for ; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 14:47:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9832EBEBA1 for ; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 14:47:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B837AD692 for ; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 14:46:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-vw0-f42.google.com (mail-vw0-f42.google.com [209.85.212.42]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7F7DAD690 for ; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 14:46:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by vws18 with SMTP id 18so45628vws.15 for ; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 11:46:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.121.227 with SMTP id i35mr1346426vcr.29.1265139997233; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 11:46:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.17.84.139? (mobile-166-137-139-143.mycingular.net [166.137.139.143]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 26sm72561973vws.4.2010.02.02.11.46.31 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 02 Feb 2010 11:46:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 14:45:30 -0500 From: Dave Farber Subject: [IP] Follow-up on TSA / Federal Air Marshal Service Story on discrimination To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7D11) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7D11) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_y8BEQfkJMEaSCeaTJoZatw)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:mime-version :subject:date:references; bh=oI1em5q17LEUpcqn3ntZtxXxCaZsYVwXPXBTyGWGRQ0=; b=wetCkVSRq7vJR/ybeoiI+tvpQrtteQoDE5NPfDP/+UaIX7rLg8B2yTotLTXuujpQxd bSj+pmmRN995/9nm0D2ZFq2gYQGofmlIhVCAb23oLCmF2lGKLKGqlm5+P7QHVxHhaBn+ 9Ilxxu5XGDqgS3aOLKzDmityhOrH4Ap1/SNeA= X-Listbox-UUID: ADD062A0-1033-11DF-B365-F938A52306B0 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <9e01ac6b1002021114k60665d6awa3e2708c46bd72f4@mail.gmail.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :x-mailer:mime-version:subject:date:references; b=Ff9Ur4C7eTm4tQPtnY8hoI8CbWh1UoldR3f3FbYekKVuNVe5B9BtwC5+Jzrxe83LMX TlnemAj1iW80SPeXkb5izdzfAKibeXrvNEYlYkzle0GgPGl0D7pLSC1RytfQBAVwxxBC Qkglb3ZaxCYXf8thynKClLs0q7s+eJGLM9YKw= --Boundary_(ID_y8BEQfkJMEaSCeaTJoZatw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Begin forwarded message: > From: Ed Biebel > Date: February 2, 2010 2:14:58 PM EST > To: dave@farber.net > Subject: Follow-up on TSA / Federal Air Marshal Service Story on > discrimination > > Dave, > > CBS digs deeper in the story and finds more problems at the TSA: > > "Sexist, racist, homophobic, anti-disabled vet group, grossly > incompetent," said the marshal, whose identity was concealed. "That's > the general consensus among air marshals." > > Nearly two dozen current or former marshals have told CBS News the > agency is dominated by an "old boys club" of white, male supervisors > -- mainly ex-secret service agents who, they allege, routinely > discriminate, intimidate and retaliate against employees who question > their actions or authority. > > "This behavior has just spread like a cancer and it's out of control," > the marshal said. > > [snip] > > "This affects every American citizen because their tax dollars are > being wasted, and their protection is being squandered," Craig Sawyer > said. > > Sawyer is a former air marshal manager and a decorated combat vet. He > says this kind of culture has crippled the agency. > > "There are thousands and thousands of flights that are unprotected > because good agents have been chased off," Sawyer said. > > [snip] > > http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/02/01/cbsnews_investigates/main6163909.shtml?tag=contentBody;featuredPost-PE > ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_y8BEQfkJMEaSCeaTJoZatw) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE




Begin= forwarded message:

Fr= om: Ed Biebel <edward@bie= bel.net>
Date: February 2, 2010 2:14:58 PM EST
To: dave@farber.net
Subject: Follow-up on = TSA / Federal Air Marshal Service Story on=09discrimination
= Dave,

CBS digs deeper in the story a= nd finds more problems at the TSA:

"= Sexist, racist, homophobic, anti-disabled vet group, grosslyincompetent," said the marshal, whose identity was concealed.= "That's
the general consensus among air marshals."

Nearly two dozen current or former ma= rshals have told CBS News the
agency is dominated by = an "old boys club" of white, male supervisors
-- main= ly ex-secret service agents who, they allege, routinely
discriminate, intimidate and retaliate against employees who quest= ion
their actions or authority.

"This behavior has just spread like a cancer and it's out= of control,"
the marshal said.

[snip]

"This affects eve= ry American citizen because their tax dollars are
bei= ng wasted, and their protection is being squandered," Craig Sawyer
said.

Sawyer is a form= er air marshal manager and a decorated combat vet. He
says this kind of culture has crippled the agency.
<= /span>
"There are thousands and thousands of flights that ar= e unprotected
because good agents have been chased of= f," Sawyer said.

[snip]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/02/01/cbsnews_investiga= tes/main6163909.shtml?tag=3DcontentBody;featuredPost-PE
--Boundary_(ID_y8BEQfkJMEaSCeaTJoZatw)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Feb 2 20:08:16 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX800N01R58BJ@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:07:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX800N01R4YB8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:07:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX800401HIV47@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 16:40:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KX8002NYHIVDT@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 16:40:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56893BD95F for ; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 16:39:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53793BE4E1 for ; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 16:39:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21222B8911 for ; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 16:38:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-vw0-f42.google.com (mail-vw0-f42.google.com [209.85.212.42]) by a-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92832B890E for ; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 16:38:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by vws18 with SMTP id 18so77522vws.15 for ; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 13:38:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.122.205 with SMTP id m13mr7141699vcr.91.1265146682751; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 13:38:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.17.84.139? (mobile-166-137-139-143.mycingular.net [166.137.139.143]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 29sm73377713vws.3.2010.02.02.13.37.59 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 02 Feb 2010 13:38:01 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 16:36:57 -0500 From: Dave Farber Subject: [IP] re Lauren Weinstein -- Microsoft's Police State Vision? Exec Calls for Internet "Driver's Licenses" To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <08F2CAFC-80A5-4EDF-91E2-71C45D84354E@me.com> MIME-version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7D11) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7D11) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_CWHTBfsg5zbTBAyJDnVAFw)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:mime-version :subject:date:references; bh=8VyDA4Aj2g/JQrybgS6+sIl1Sobe9aDbLYND8HVxS4c=; b=cq5Zl8K9J5Ryo4TPhY1KRw14Blh0APUfo6UchTopwEHBK24HsmcOh929NsYu82pPrV 6Ve3bEookXB6xa4wkFMK2wBBkTa0AYgTITipyKd6uZqlaXNo3pmiWCs5R+kXEzHYxxaa 6XZmpQlqZiyMJhXsny8LN7yoZj5KACgIxDZ2w= X-Listbox-UUID: 3EE0896E-1043-11DF-ABB7-DCD2A30EA3B1 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <4c16869a1002021328j7cb9a7afud4e5f31d1d245e35@mail.gmail.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :x-mailer:mime-version:subject:date:references; b=NiSE5YOI+Zcyogcol6VBIO8MEmI4s8bxRkEimoHr6+rhtlTblzrinU3yAEbzoAm/Ij PSp6MivYnx5VvXRRChiTJUvl2ZivrV3b3jXSCsn+QU3kz1+MIEBAFTMv1FrgxoBp4fhz KN3eKxWgO0/V2qHKjDk6P1MRqFutlQyEhhyqM= --Boundary_(ID_CWHTBfsg5zbTBAyJDnVAFw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Begin forwarded message: > From: "Synthesis:Law and Technology Law and Technology" > > Date: February 2, 2010 4:28:34 PM EST > To: Lauren Weinstein > Cc: dave@farber.net, ip > Subject: Re: [IP] Lauren Weinstein -- Microsoft's Police State > Vision? Exec Calls for Internet "Driver's Licenses" > > That flag might work temporarily in the US but I suspect there would > be considerably more inertia outside your national boundaries. > Where it would run into problems would be when someone points out > that this is creating a huge security problem with the potential for > forged credentials. Again, I'm not saying we shouldn't fight the > principle. I'm saying the 'make them look like dangerous lunatics' > sober technical approach seems to work best at shooting down such > grandstanding in the past. I'm also not convinced that they can > implement much without tearing down/starting up (and risk getting > disconnected from Canada and the EU in the process). > And we haven't even begun to talk about how plenty of businesses > such as Disney would want to object strenuously to this. > > On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 2:55 PM, Lauren Weinstein > wrote: > > I think that if the national security "scare the people" flag were > waved vigorously enough, you'd be amazed at the level of crackdown > that would be possible without redesigning the Net from scratch, > certainly enough to accomplish an initial stage of onerous controls > sufficient to accomplish their short-term political ends. > > --Lauren-- > > > On 02/02 14:40, Synthesis:Law and Technology Law and Technology wrote: > > I see that point to a degree and I undestand the need to > contiunously and > > vigorously defend against such controls. > > > > But when he makes a point that is so obviously erroneous I have to > think it > > lessens his credibility and consequently hurts that cause. When > he makes > > the call and someone stands up and asks him "so you are advocating > shutting > > down the internet completely and starting over with something > fresh and > > untested?" doesn't it make that whole control-is-a-goal look > foolish and > > irresponsible and consequently less credible and less reasoned? > The reason > > to react is his position at Microsoft. What he is effectively > saying is > > that Microsoff is in favor of throwing everything out and starting > over with > > something that is untested and unproven. When you put it that > way, I think > > maybe 12 people on the planet will buy into it. > > > > We went through something similar when the Trademark bar tried to > 'own' the > > internet. And almost the same when the micropayment folk wanted to > charge > > for everything...and the content police...etc etc. I think > history teaches > > us that people will buy into these harebrained grandstanding > postures and > > it is necessary to fight them on moral/ethical grounds. > > > > But once you make them look totally foolish and dangerous on a > practical > > level, they go away fast. People are essentially selfish and if > you give > > them choices with the consequences to them, they usually vote the > right > > way. Tell them it will make them more 'secure' they will want > it. Tell > > them they will have to throw everything out and lose this and that > and this > > and that and start over with everything just to get something that > will curb > > their freedom at the technology level? Who is going to vote for > that? > > > > Dan Steinberg > > > > SYNTHESIS:Law & Technology > > 35, du Ravin phone: (613) 794-5356 > > Chelsea, Quebec > > J9B 1N1 > > On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 12:56 AM, Lauren Weinstein > wrote: > > > > > > > > Whether or not it can be done as he suggests isn't really the > point. > > > He knows the reality even if he's talking past it for effect. But > > > when someone of his stature and representing Microsoft makes such > > > comments at such a gathering, it plays into the hands of those > > > governments who want to tightly control access to the Net > through any > > > and all means possible. So he's still being irresponsible in the > > > extreme. > > > > > > --Lauren-- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Dan Steinberg > > SYNTHESIS:Law & Technology > 35, du Ravin phone: (613) 794-5356 > Chelsea, Quebec > J9B 1N1 ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_CWHTBfsg5zbTBAyJDnVAFw) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE




Begin= forwarded message:

Fr= om: "Synthesis:Law and Technology Law and Technology" <synthesis.law.and.= technology@gmail.com>
Date: February 2, 2010 4:28:34= PM EST
To: Lauren Weinstein <lauren@vortex.com>
Cc: dave@farber.net, ip <ip@v2.listbox.com>
Subject: Re: [IP]= Lauren Weinstein -- Microsoft's Police State Vision? Exec Calls for = Internet "Driver's Licenses"

That flag might work temporarily= in the US but I suspect there would be considerably more inertia out= side your national boundaries.  Where it would run into problems= would be when someone points out that this is creating a huge securi= ty problem with the potential for forged credentials.  Again, I'= m not saying we shouldn't fight  the principle. I'm saying the '= make them look like dangerous lunatics' sober technical approach seem= s to work best at shooting down such grandstanding in the past. I'm a= lso not convinced that they can implement much without tearing down/s= tarting up (and risk getting disconnected from Canada and the EU in t= he process).
And we haven't even begun to talk about how plenty of businesses= such as Disney would want to object strenuously to this.

On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 2:55 PM, Lauren Wei= nstein <lauren@vortex.com> wrote:

I think that if = the national security "scare the people" flag were
waved vigorousl= y enough, you'd be amazed at the level of crackdown
that would be possible without redesigning the Net from scratch,
c= ertainly enough to accomplish an initial stage of onerous controlssufficient to accomplish their short-term political ends.

--Lauren--


On 02/02 14:40, Synthesis:Law and Technolog= y Law and Technology wrote:
> I see that point to a degree and = I undestand the need to contiunously and
> vigorously defend ag= ainst such controls.
>
> But when he makes a point that is so obviously erroneous= I have to think it
> lessens his credibility and consequently = hurts that cause.  When he makes
> the call and someone st= ands up and asks him "so you are advocating shutting
> down the internet completely and starting over with something fr= esh and
> untested?"  doesn't it make that whole control-i= s-a-goal look foolish and
> irresponsible and consequently less= credible and less reasoned?  The reason
> to react is his position at Microsoft.  What he is effectiv= ely saying is
> that Microsoff is in favor of throwing everythi= ng out and starting over with
> something that is untested and = unproven.  When you put it that way, I think
> maybe 12 people on the planet will buy into it.
>
> = We went through something similar when the Trademark bar tried to 'ow= n'  the
> internet. And almost the same when the micropaym= ent folk wanted to charge
> for everything...and the content police...etc etc.  I think= history teaches
> us  that people will buy into these har= ebrained grandstanding postures and
> it is necessary to fight = them on moral/ethical grounds.
>
> But once you make them look totally foolish and dangerou= s on a practical
> level,  they go away fast.  People= are essentially selfish and if you give
> them choices with th= e consequences to them, they usually vote the right
> way.  Tell them it will make them more 'secure' they will w= ant it.  Tell
> them they will have to throw everything ou= t and lose this and that and this
> and that and start over wit= h everything just to get something that will curb
> their freedom at the technology level?  Who is going to vot= e for that?
>
> Dan Steinberg
>
> SYNTHESIS:L= aw & Technology
> 35, du Ravin phone: (613) 794-5356
>= ; Chelsea, Quebec
> J9B 1N1
> On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 12:56 AM, Lauren Weinstei= n <lauren@vortex.com> wrote:
>
> ><= br>> > Whether or not it can be done as he suggests isn't reall= y the point.
> > He knows the reality even if he's talking past it for effec= t.  But
> > when someone of his stature and representin= g Microsoft makes such
> > comments at such a gathering, it = plays into the hands of those
> > governments who want to tightly control access to the Net t= hrough any
> > and all means possible.  So he's still b= eing irresponsible in the
> > extreme.
> >
> = > --Lauren--
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >



--
Dan Stein= berg

SYNTHESIS:Law & Technology
35, du Ravin phone: (61= 3) 794-5356
Chelsea, Quebec
J9B 1N1                
--Boundary_(ID_CWHTBfsg5zbTBAyJDnVAFw)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Feb 2 20:08:17 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX800N01R58BJ@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:07:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX800N01R4YB8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:07:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX800A01KKU1L@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 17:46:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KX8006AGKKUQ1@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; 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Tue, 02 Feb 2010 17:41:46 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 17:41:46 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] UCLA professors banned from posting videos online To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <3D119885-7FFB-452F-993D-0FE29A3419C4@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=HPUMQfW3tlXosqw/Z EfocpHeSw4=; b=UlO3wFtnQ5WY7QxkpRAV0qllIqzZqxkmuvEx3ESrdWYTJ2Tz3 3sSLI6LNjIQoJLY6qmQqrUZvSjF0Wtwv3tbjQ== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.198 X-Listbox-UUID: 25B6394E-104C-11DF-801E-C1922219E07B X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: =46rom: Bob Poortinga Date: February 2, 2010 5:09:58 PM EST To: Dave Farber Subject: UCLA professors banned from posting videos online For IP if appropriate: Apparently, the Association for Information Media and Equipment, a trade organization, doesn't believe in educational fair use. --=20 Bob Poortinga K9SQL Bloomington, IN US -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Tue Feb 2 20:08:18 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX800N01R58BJ@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; 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(mobile-166-137-139-143.mycingular.net [166.137.139.143]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 36sm73924834vws.18.2010.02.02.14.52.28 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 02 Feb 2010 14:52:34 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 17:51:27 -0500 From: Dave Farber Subject: [IP] Lauren Weinstein -- Microsoft's Police State Vision? Exec Calls for Internet "Driver's Licenses" To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7D11) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7D11) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_qiFcaZJxBEsHuFVqlseYag)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=message-id :from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:date:references:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=IEw7PXgueD/1HFUe2 hZfaBx00MA=; b=dw2hNGa7fW1Njj1VWcqMKhx+TW+ReCa5nx0rlPv6FwaUbFYVZ v3+bi3zQuki1B96ndzDNWW6pRnk50bnqB2iWA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:mime-version :subject:date:references; bh=JlLjCfuS6SMqSi5do3mNARcGS9XTsHpswPuQmHg2pmA=; b=A1bZXaM4g4Aa68g/lEEzN1szglTPHN89XefNXBsRJmajNxboTPSShqBwzk0/mP9E37 kBOfC8JWDh2fJ4ckVljlGtP9hgEto+TE6kURASsiL+KPAQb2s0JyQAHz/tw2SPvDGwku ZYaA12vIqYDPf3E4uarRallanL6ceWtXS91Zs= X-Listbox-UUID: A8A5EDD0-104D-11DF-B3E2-C0BF28F74AB2 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <20100202213650.GB22205@vortex.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :x-mailer:mime-version:subject:date:references; b=uKCiDRimNqTrB4ZMpjKpIdHzuxOty3hKcxe17SU4+uuvJEmSWwCRXELrinyZmCxuE7 HRAXJ2FvW96musIAiH15b5pQnTiDHjeROGthc1D6LIcaGvGjDC1Y/RjQam7AL9RlT3bE aYkLdYWWW2nntXURJOBdkVP28XeSt7qVGdMmo= --Boundary_(ID_qiFcaZJxBEsHuFVqlseYag) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Begin forwarded message: > From: Lauren Weinstein > Date: February 2, 2010 4:36:50 PM EST > To: "Synthesis:Law and Technology Law and Technology" > > Cc: dave@farber.net, ip > Subject: Re: [IP] Lauren Weinstein -- Microsoft's Police State > Vision? Exec Calls for Internet "Driver's Licenses" > > > All it would take is one really big terrorist event that was linked > (correctly or not) to the Internet and watch how fast the whole > world salutes Internet Control. > > --Lauren-- > > On 02/02 16:28, Synthesis:Law and Technology Law and Technology wrote: >> That flag might work temporarily in the US but I suspect there >> would be >> considerably more inertia outside your national boundaries. Where >> it would >> run into problems would be when someone points out that this is >> creating a >> huge security problem with the potential for forged credentials. >> Again, I'm >> not saying we shouldn't fight the principle. I'm saying the 'make >> them look >> like dangerous lunatics' sober technical approach seems to work >> best at >> shooting down such grandstanding in the past. I'm also not >> convinced that >> they can implement much without tearing down/starting up (and risk >> getting >> disconnected from Canada and the EU in the process). >> And we haven't even begun to talk about how plenty of businesses >> such as >> Disney would want to object strenuously to this. >> >> On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 2:55 PM, Lauren Weinstein >> wrote: >> >>> >>> I think that if the national security "scare the people" flag were >>> waved vigorously enough, you'd be amazed at the level of crackdown >>> that would be possible without redesigning the Net from scratch, >>> certainly enough to accomplish an initial stage of onerous controls >>> sufficient to accomplish their short-term political ends. >>> >>> --Lauren-- >>> >>> >>> On 02/02 14:40, Synthesis:Law and Technology Law and Technology >>> wrote: >>>> I see that point to a degree and I undestand the need to >>>> contiunously and >>>> vigorously defend against such controls. >>>> >>>> But when he makes a point that is so obviously erroneous I have >>>> to think >>> it >>>> lessens his credibility and consequently hurts that cause. When >>>> he makes >>>> the call and someone stands up and asks him "so you are advocating >>> shutting >>>> down the internet completely and starting over with something >>>> fresh and >>>> untested?" doesn't it make that whole control-is-a-goal look >>>> foolish and >>>> irresponsible and consequently less credible and less reasoned? >>>> The >>> reason >>>> to react is his position at Microsoft. What he is effectively >>>> saying is >>>> that Microsoff is in favor of throwing everything out and >>>> starting over >>> with >>>> something that is untested and unproven. When you put it that >>>> way, I >>> think >>>> maybe 12 people on the planet will buy into it. >>>> >>>> We went through something similar when the Trademark bar tried to >>>> 'own' >>> the >>>> internet. And almost the same when the micropayment folk wanted >>>> to charge >>>> for everything...and the content police...etc etc. I think history >>> teaches >>>> us that people will buy into these harebrained grandstanding >>>> postures >>> and >>>> it is necessary to fight them on moral/ethical grounds. >>>> >>>> But once you make them look totally foolish and dangerous on a >>>> practical >>>> level, they go away fast. People are essentially selfish and if >>>> you >>> give >>>> them choices with the consequences to them, they usually vote the >>>> right >>>> way. Tell them it will make them more 'secure' they will want >>>> it. Tell >>>> them they will have to throw everything out and lose this and >>>> that and >>> this >>>> and that and start over with everything just to get something >>>> that will >>> curb >>>> their freedom at the technology level? Who is going to vote for >>>> that? >>>> >>>> Dan Steinberg >>>> >>>> SYNTHESIS:Law & Technology >>>> 35, du Ravin phone: (613) 794-5356 >>>> Chelsea, Quebec >>>> J9B 1N1 >>>> On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 12:56 AM, Lauren Weinstein >>> > >>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Whether or not it can be done as he suggests isn't really the >>>>> point. >>>>> He knows the reality even if he's talking past it for effect. But >>>>> when someone of his stature and representing Microsoft makes such >>>>> comments at such a gathering, it plays into the hands of those >>>>> governments who want to tightly control access to the Net >>>>> through any >>>>> and all means possible. So he's still being irresponsible in the >>>>> extreme. >>>>> >>>>> --Lauren-- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Dan Steinberg >> >> SYNTHESIS:Law & Technology >> 35, du Ravin phone: (613) 794-5356 >> Chelsea, Quebec >> J9B 1N1 > ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_qiFcaZJxBEsHuFVqlseYag) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE




Begin= forwarded message:

Fr= om: Lauren Weinstein <lau= ren@vortex.com>
Date: February 2, 2010 4:36:50 PM ES= T
To: "Synthesis:Law and Technology Law and Technology" <= ;synthesis.= law.and.technology@gmail.com>
Cc: dave@farber.net, ip <ip@v2.listbox.com>
Subject: Re: [IP]= Lauren Weinstein -- Microsoft's Police State Vision? Exec Calls for = Internet "Driver's Licenses"


All it would t= ake is one really big terrorist event that was linked
(correctly or not) to the Internet and watch how fast the whole
world salutes Internet Control.
--Lauren--

On 02/02 16:28, S= ynthesis:Law and Technology Law and Technology wrote:
That flag might work temporarily in the US= but I suspect there would be
considerably more inertia outside your national bound= aries.  Where it would
run into problems would be when someone points out th= at this is creating a
huge security problem with the potential for forged credentia= ls.  Again, I'm
not saying we shouldn't fight  the principle. I'm saying = the 'make them look
= like dangerous lunatics' sober technical approach seems to work= best at
shoot= ing down such grandstanding in the past. I'm also not convinced that<= /span>
they can imple= ment much without tearing down/starting up (and risk getting
disconnected from Cana= da and the EU in the process).
And we haven't even begun to talk about how plenty o= f businesses such as
Disney would want to object strenuously to this.

On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 2:55 PM, Lauren W= einstein <lauren@vortex.com> wrote:
=

I think that if the nationa= l security "scare the people" flag were
wave= d vigorously enough, you'd be amazed at the level of crackdown=
that would be possible without redesigning the Net= from scratch,
certainly enough to accompl= ish an initial stage of onerous controls
suf= ficient to accomplish their short-term political ends.

--Lauren--


On 02/02 14:4= 0, Synthesis:Law and Technology Law and Technology wrote:
<= /blockquote>
I see that point to a degre= e and I undestand the need to contiunously and
vigorously defend against s= uch controls.

<= span>But when he makes a point that is so obviously erroneous I have = to think
it
=
lessens his credibility and consequen= tly hurts that cause.  When he makes
the call and someone stands up a= nd asks him "so you are advocating
shutting
d= own the internet completely and starting over with something fresh an= d
u= ntested?"  doesn't it make that whole control-is-a-goal look foo= lish and
irresponsible and consequently less credible and less reasoned? &= nbsp;The
reason
to react is his position at Micro= soft.  What he is effectively saying is
<= /blockquote>
that Microsoff is in favor = of throwing everything out and starting over
<= /blockquote>
with
something that is untested and unproven.  When you put it tha= t way, I
think
maybe 12 people on the planet will= buy into it.

<= span>We went through something similar when the Trademark bar tried t= o 'own'
the
internet. And almost the same when t= he micropayment folk wanted to charge
for everything...and the content pol= ice...etc etc.  I think history
= teaches
u= s  that people will buy into these harebrained grandstanding pos= tures
and
it is necessary to fight them on moral/= ethical grounds.

But once you make them look totally foolish and dange= rous on a practical
=
level,  they go away fast.  People are esse= ntially selfish and if you
give=
them choices with= the consequences to them, they usually vote the right
way.  Tell the= m it will make them more 'secure' they will want it.  Tell
them they = will have to throw everything out and lose this and that and
this
and that and start over with everything just to get = something that will
=
curb=
their freedom at the tec= hnology level?  Who is going to vote for that?

Dan Steinberg

SYNTHESIS:Law & T= echnology
<= span>35, du Ravin phone: (613) 794-5356
Chelsea, Quebec
J9B 1N1
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 = at 12:56 AM, Lauren Weinstein <lauren@vortex.com>
wro= te:


Whether or not it can be d= one as he suggests isn't really the point.
He knows the reality even if he's talking past it for effect.=  But
when someone of his stat= ure and representing Microsoft makes such
comments at such a gathering, it plays into the hands of those=
governments who want to tightly co= ntrol access to the Net through any
and all means possible.  So he's still being irresponsible in t= he
extreme.
=

--Lauren--


<= br>





--
Dan Steinberg

SYNTHESIS:Law & Technology
35, du Ravin phone: (613) 794-5356<= /span>
Chelsea, Quebe= c
J9B 1N1

--Boundary_(ID_qiFcaZJxBEsHuFVqlseYag)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Wed Feb 3 23:09:07 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXA00501U724A@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 23:09:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXA00501U6X45@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Wed, 03 Feb 2010 23:08:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX900K01GA0KJ@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 05:11:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KX900GDKGA0W5@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 05:10:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.38]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F117ABEAE1 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 05:10:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED24EBE859 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 05:10:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 954A3B071B for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 05:08:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58C30B071A for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 05:08:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.9] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o13A8Tr4028468 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 05:08:29 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 05:08:28 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: Speaking of jobs To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <2718A5DF-13EA-47B1-BBE2-9B73A12166D6@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_AiEknWfy3V25jJPwYHf29A)" X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 1561BFB8-10AC-11DF-AEFD-DE4C6501C210 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <000001caa478$acc36dc0$064a4940$@net> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_AiEknWfy3V25jJPwYHf29A) Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Begin forwarded message: =46rom: "George Ou" Date: February 2, 2010 9:29:13 PM EST To: , , "'Bob Frankston'" Subject: RE: [IP] REe Speaking of jobs Technology has eliminated nearly all of the agriculture jobs which on= ce employed 90% of the population. Technology and free trade has eli= minated nearly all of the American manufacturing jobs which once empl= oyed most of the US population. =20 Yet despite this effect from technology and free trade, the US can em= ploy roughly 90% to 94% of its population with easier jobs (anyone wh= o=92s ever worked on a farm or manufacturing can attest to this) whic= h ironically give people enough time to complain about =93the good ol= d days=94. So it would stand to reason that technology and free trad= e haven=92t really harmed jobs on the larger scheme of things though = it has some temporary adverse effects on some of the population durin= g transitional phases. =20 So Bob, the evidence shows that jobs lost to technology weren=92t rep= laced by welfare but by better jobs. =20 As for the effects of free trade and outsourcing, that doesn=92t seem= to have eliminated jobs overall for wealthier nations. It does seem= to have positive transformative effects for developing nations like = China and India. It=92s already getting to be too expensive to outso= urce many jobs to India and it will get to the point where it wouldn= =92t be worth it as their wages rise to equilibrium with other first = world nations. =20 =20 George =20 =46rom: David Farber [mailto:dave@farber.net]=20 Sent: Monday, February 01, 2010 6:39 AM To: ip Subject: [IP] REe Speaking of jobs =20 =20 =20 Begin forwarded message: =20 =46rom: "Amy Wohl" Date: February 1, 2010 2:13:21 AM EST To: Subject: RE: [IP] Speaking of jobs The ability of technology to eliminate jobs is a long time concern. = In fact the National Academy of Sciences addressed this in the mid-e= ighties, with a study that sought research and opinions from a broad = segment of the academic community, including many economists. The fi= nding (I was on the committee establishing and reviewing the study as= the crossover person =96 an economist who worked in the technology s= ector) was that there would be no technology effect on employment and= that, in fact, any effect would be more than compensated for by the = need for workers to support a growing economy with a population that = would not be growing workers fast enough. (Remember that when you= =92re making these calculations 18 years out you know exactly how man= y workers you=92ll have because they=92ve all been born already.) =20 Of course, there were two things that weren=92t considered, because s= tudies are not fortune telling. No one foresaw the Internet and the = unintentional consequences of its promoting a global economy (which m= ight have occurred anyway), where moving even highly paid professiona= l jobs might become much easier and indeed viewed as required by larg= e corporations, seeking to optimize their revenues and market shares. =20 We need to be unlike the recording industry (which wants things to st= ay the same and seeks to use technology to enforce a market which has= changed) and instead recognize the new facts and deal with them acco= rdingly. =20 Amy Wohl =20 Amy D. Wohl Editor, Amy Wohl's Opinions 40 Old Lancaster Road, #608 Merion, Station, PA 19066 610-667-4842 amy@wohl.com www.wohl.com =20 =20 =46rom: Dave Farber [mailto:dfarber@me.com]=20 Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 11:20 AM To: ip Subject: [IP] Speaking of jobs =20 =20 >From: "Bob Frankston" >To: >Date: January 15, 2010 11:02:23 AM EST >Subject: Speaking of jobs >=20 >=20 I?m reminded of the problem the sewing machine companies faced in the= 1800?s. Instead of relying on welfare women with no other prospects = could become seamstresses rather than resorting to more desperate mea= sures. The sewing machine was delayed for years while people tried to= solve the problem but it wasn?t until decades later when the modern = welfare system was accepted in the US. =20 Today?s focus on jobs is eerily reminiscent of that situation. Modern= inventions are eliminating many of the today?s jobs just as the sewi= ng machine did back then. How long before we address the issue rather= than saying blithely ?get a job?? Archives =09 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.141/2622 - Release Date: 01= /15/10 07:35:00 =20 Archives=20 =20 ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_AiEknWfy3V25jJPwYHf29A) Content-type: multipart/related; boundary="Boundary_(ID_6k3kvkvpwmrSygaZZCbdkw)"; type="text/html" --Boundary_(ID_6k3kvkvpwmrSygaZZCbdkw) Content-type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

Begin forwarded message:

F= rom: "George Ou" <g= eorge_ou@lanarchitect.net>
Date: February 2, 2010 9:29:13 PM EST
Subject: = = RE: [IP] REe Speaking of jobs

Technology has eliminated nearly all of the agricu= lture jobs which once employed 90% of the population.  Technolog= y and free trade has eliminated nearly all of the American manufactur= ing jobs which once employed most of the US population.
 
Yet despite this effect = =66rom technology and free trade, the US can employ roughly 90% to 94= % of its population with easier jobs (anyone who=92s ever worked on a= farm or manufacturing can attest to this) which ironically give peop= le enough time to complain about =93the good old days=94.  So it= would stand to reason that technology and free trade haven=92t reall= y harmed jobs on the larger scheme of things though it has some tempo= rary adverse effects on some of the population during transitional ph= ases.
 
So Bo= b, the evidence shows that jobs lost to technology weren=92t replaced= by welfare but by better jobs.
 
As for the effects of free trade and outso= urcing, that doesn=92t seem to have eliminated jobs overall for wealt= hier nations.  It does seem to have positive transformative effe= cts for developing nations like China and India.  It=92s already= getting to be too expensive to outsource many jobs to India and it w= ill get to the point where it wouldn=92t be worth it as their wages r= ise to equilibrium with other first world nations.<= /div>
 
 
George
<= div style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; fo= nt-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; margin-top: 0in; margin-bottom: = 0.0001pt; "> 
From: David Farber [mailto:dave@far= ber.net] 
Sen= t: Monday, Febr= uary 01, 2010 6:39 AM
To: ip
Subject: [IP] REe Speaking of jobs
=
 
&nb= sp;
 
Begin forwarded message:
 
From: "Amy Wohl" <amy@wohl.com>
Date: = February 1, 2010 2:13:21 AM EST
=


The abi= lity of technology to eliminate jobs is a long time concern.  In= fact the National Academy  of Sciences addressed this in the mi= d-eighties, with a study that sought research and opinions from a bro= ad segment of the academic community, including many economists. = ; The finding (I was on the committee establishing and reviewing the = study as the crossover person =96 an economist who worked in the tech= nology sector) was that there would be no technology effect on employ= ment and that, in fact, any effect would be more than compensated for= by the need for workers to support a growing economy with a populati= on that would not be growing workers fast enough.  (Remember tha= t when you=92re making these calculations 18 years out you know exact= ly how many workers you=92ll have because they=92ve all been born alr= eady.)
=
 
From: Dave Farber [mailto:d= farber@me.com] 
= Sent: Friday= , January 15, 2010 11:20 AM
To: ip
Subject: [IP] Speaking of jobs<= /span>
 
 
>To: <dave@farber.net>
>Date: January 15, 2010 11:02:23 AM EST
>Subject: Speaking of jobs
> =

> 
 
No virus found=
 in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version:=
 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.141/2622 - Release Date: 01/15/10 0=
7:35:00
&nbs=
p;



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Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 05:06:57 -0500
From: David Farber 
Subject: [IP] Re:   Lauren Weinstein -- Microsoft's Police State Vision? Exec
 Callsfor Internet "Driver's Licenses"
To: ip 
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Begin forwarded message:

=46rom: jason@calacanis.com
Date: February 2, 2010 6:02:16 PM EST
To: dave@farber.net, "ip" 
Subject: Re: [IP] Lauren Weinstein -- Microsoft's Police State Vision=
? Exec Callsfor Internet "Driver's Licenses"
Reply-To: jason@calacanis.com

Dave, in Korea you have to login to social networks and blogs on Nave=
r, Nate and Daum.net with your social security number.=20

In some respects we are already opting into an internet drivers licen=
se: Facebook Connect. On Facebook you can't be a fake person accordin=
g to their TOS, and in large part the service is real userd (much mor=
e than twitter or myspace).=20

It would actually be an amazing business move for Facebook to require=
 verification, or have two levels of accounts: verified and not.

Twitter already verifies celebrities.=20

Market solution would be best IMO. Let folks opt into the wild west o=
n 4chan, and Disneyland on Facebook.=20

Best j
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

=46rom: Dave Farber 
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 17:51:27 -0500
To: ip
Subject: [IP] Lauren Weinstein -- Microsoft's Police State Vision? Ex=
ec Calls for Internet "Driver's Licenses"





Begin forwarded message:

> From: Lauren Weinstein 
> Date: February 2, 2010 4:36:50 PM EST
> To: "Synthesis:Law and Technology Law and Technology" 
> Cc: dave@farber.net, ip 
> Subject: Re: [IP] Lauren Weinstein -- Microsoft's Police State Visi=
on? Exec Calls for Internet "Driver's Licenses"
>=20
>=20
> All it would take is one really big terrorist event that was linked
> (correctly or not) to the Internet and watch how fast the whole
> world salutes Internet Control.
>=20
> --Lauren--
>=20
> On 02/02 16:28, Synthesis:Law and Technology Law and Technology wro=
te:
>> That flag might work temporarily in the US but I suspect there wou=
ld be
>> considerably more inertia outside your national boundaries.  Where=
 it would
>> run into problems would be when someone points out that this is cr=
eating a
>> huge security problem with the potential for forged credentials.  =
Again, I'm
>> not saying we shouldn't fight  the principle. I'm saying the 'make=
 them look
>> like dangerous lunatics' sober technical approach seems to work be=
st at
>> shooting down such grandstanding in the past. I'm also not convinc=
ed that
>> they can implement much without tearing down/starting up (and risk=
 getting
>> disconnected from Canada and the EU in the process).
>> And we haven't even begun to talk about how plenty of businesses s=
uch as
>> Disney would want to object strenuously to this.
>>=20
>> On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 2:55 PM, Lauren Weinstein  wrote:
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> I think that if the national security "scare the people" flag wer=
e
>>> waved vigorously enough, you'd be amazed at the level of crackdow=
n
>>> that would be possible without redesigning the Net from scratch,
>>> certainly enough to accomplish an initial stage of onerous contro=
ls
>>> sufficient to accomplish their short-term political ends.
>>>=20
>>> --Lauren--
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On 02/02 14:40, Synthesis:Law and Technology Law and Technology w=
rote:
>>>> I see that point to a degree and I undestand the need to contiun=
ously and
>>>> vigorously defend against such controls.
>>>>=20
>>>> But when he makes a point that is so obviously erroneous I have =
to think
>>> it
>>>> lessens his credibility and consequently hurts that cause.  When=
 he makes
>>>> the call and someone stands up and asks him "so you are advocati=
ng
>>> shutting
>>>> down the internet completely and starting over with something fr=
esh and
>>>> untested?"  doesn't it make that whole control-is-a-goal look fo=
olish and
>>>> irresponsible and consequently less credible and less reasoned? =
 The
>>> reason
>>>> to react is his position at Microsoft.  What he is effectively s=
aying is
>>>> that Microsoff is in favor of throwing everything out and starti=
ng over
>>> with
>>>> something that is untested and unproven.  When you put it that w=
ay, I
>>> think
>>>> maybe 12 people on the planet will buy into it.
>>>>=20
>>>> We went through something similar when the Trademark bar tried t=
o 'own'
>>> the
>>>> internet. And almost the same when the micropayment folk wanted =
to charge
>>>> for everything...and the content police...etc etc.  I think hist=
ory
>>> teaches
>>>> us  that people will buy into these harebrained grandstanding po=
stures
>>> and
>>>> it is necessary to fight them on moral/ethical grounds.
>>>>=20
>>>> But once you make them look totally foolish and dangerous on a p=
ractical
>>>> level,  they go away fast.  People are essentially selfish and i=
f you
>>> give
>>>> them choices with the consequences to them, they usually vote th=
e right
>>>> way.  Tell them it will make them more 'secure' they will want i=
t.  Tell
>>>> them they will have to throw everything out and lose this and th=
at and
>>> this
>>>> and that and start over with everything just to get something th=
at will
>>> curb
>>>> their freedom at the technology level?  Who is going to vote for=
 that?
>>>>=20
>>>> Dan Steinberg
>>>>=20
>>>> SYNTHESIS:Law & Technology
>>>> 35, du Ravin phone: (613) 794-5356
>>>> Chelsea, Quebec
>>>> J9B 1N1
>>>> On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 12:56 AM, Lauren Weinstein 
>>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Whether or not it can be done as he suggests isn't really the p=
oint.
>>>>> He knows the reality even if he's talking past it for effect.  =
But
>>>>> when someone of his stature and representing Microsoft makes su=
ch
>>>>> comments at such a gathering, it plays into the hands of those
>>>>> governments who want to tightly control access to the Net throu=
gh any
>>>>> and all means possible.  So he's still being irresponsible in t=
he
>>>>> extreme.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> --Lauren--
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Dan Steinberg
>>=20
>> SYNTHESIS:Law & Technology
>> 35, du Ravin phone: (613) 794-5356
>> Chelsea, Quebec
>> J9B 1N1
>=20
Archives =09=20




-------------------------------------------

--Boundary_(ID_ouggZLiENK6BD5NhMx7R2Q)
Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE



<=
div>Begin forwarded message:

Date: February 2, 2010 6:02:16 PM EST
=

Subject: Re: [IP] Lauren Weinstein -=
- Microsoft's Police State Vision? Exec Callsfor Internet "Driver's L=
icenses"

Dave, in Korea you hav=
e to login to social networks and blogs on Naver, Nate and Daum.net with your social security number. <=
br>
In some respects we are already opting into an internet driver=
s license: Facebook Connect. On Facebook you can't be a fake person a=
ccording to their TOS, and in large part the service is real userd (m=
uch more than twitter or myspace). 

It would actually be an am=
azing business move for Facebook to require verification, or have two=
 levels of accounts: verified and not.

Twitter already verifie=
s celebrities. 

Market solution would be best IMO. Let folks o=
pt into the wild west on 4chan, and Disneyland on Facebook. 

B=
est j
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
From:  D=
ave Farber <dave@farber.net=
>

Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 17:51:27 -0500



From: Lauren Weinstein <lauren@vortex.com>
Date: February=
 2, 2010 4:36:50 PM EST
To: "Synthesis:Law and Technology L=
aw and Technology" <synthesis.law.and.technology@gmail.com>
Cc:<=
/b> dave@farber.net, ip <ip@v2.listbox.com>
Su=
bject: Re: [IP] Lauren Weinstein -- Microsoft's Police State V=
ision? Exec Calls for Internet "Driver's Licenses"

<=
/blockquote>
All it would take is one really big terrorist event that was =
linked
(correctly or not) to the Internet and watch h=
ow fast the whole
world salutes Internet Control.

--Lauren--

<=
span>On 02/02 16:28, Synthesis:Law and Technology Law and Technology =
wrote:
That flag might work=
 temporarily in the US but I suspect there would be
considerably more inertia outsi=
de your national boundaries.  Where it would
run into problems would be when s=
omeone points out that this is creating a
huge security problem with the potential =
for forged credentials.  Again, I'm
not saying we shouldn't fight  the pr=
inciple. I'm saying the 'make them look
like dangerous lunatics' sober technical ap=
proach seems to work best at
shooting down such grandstanding in the past. I'm als=
o not convinced that
they can implement much without tearing down/starting up (and =
risk getting
d=
isconnected from Canada and the EU in the process).
And we haven't even begun to ta=
lk about how plenty of businesses such as
Disney would want to object strenuously t=
o this.

On Tue, Feb 2, 2010=
 at 2:55 PM, Lauren Weinstein <lauren@vortex.com> wrote:


I think t=
hat if the national security "scare the people" flag were
<=
/blockquote>
waved vigorously enough, you'd be amazed at the level=
 of crackdown
that would be possible with=
out redesigning the Net from scratch,
certai=
nly enough to accomplish an initial stage of onerous controls<=
br>
sufficient to accomplish their short-term political=
 ends.
=


=

--Lauren--<=
/span>


On 02/02 14:40, Synthesis:Law and Technology Law and Technolo=
gy wrote:
I see th=
at point to a degree and I undestand the need to contiunously and
vigorous=
ly defend against such controls.
=


But when he makes a point that is so obviousl=
y erroneous I have to think
it<=
/span>
lessens his credib=
ility and consequently hurts that cause.  When he makes
the call and =
someone stands up and asks him "so you are advocating
shutting
<=
blockquote type=3D"cite">
down the internet completely and starting over with s=
omething fresh and
<=
blockquote type=3D"cite">
untested?"  doesn't it make that whole control-i=
s-a-goal look foolish and
irresponsible and consequently less credible and=
 less reasoned?  The
reaso=
n
to react is his =
position at Microsoft.  What he is effectively saying is<=
br>
<=
blockquote type=3D"cite">
that Microso=
ff is in favor of throwing everything out and starting over
with
something that is untested and unproven.  When y=
ou put it that way, I
think
maybe 12 people on th=
e planet will buy into it.

We went through something similar when the Trademar=
k bar tried to 'own'
 the
internet. And almost th=
e same when the micropayment folk wanted to charge
for everything...and th=
e content police...etc etc.  I think history
teaches
us  that people will buy into these harebrained grandst=
anding postures
and
<=
/blockquote>
it is necessary to fight th=
em on moral/ethical grounds.

But once you make them look totally foolish and d=
angerous on a practical
level,  they go away fast.  People are e=
ssentially selfish and if you
g=
ive
them choices w=
ith the consequences to them, they usually vote the right
<=
/blockquote>
way.  Tell =
them it will make them more 'secure' they will want it.  Tell
them th=
ey will have to throw everything out and lose this and that and
this
and that and start over with everything just to g=
et something that will
curb
their freedom at the =
technology level?  Who is going to vote for that?

Dan Steinberg

SYNTHESIS:Law &=
; Technology
35, du Ravin phone: (613) 794-5356
Chelsea, Quebec
<=
/blockquote>
J9B 1N1
On Tue, Feb 2=
, 2010 at 12:56 AM, Lauren Weinstein <lauren@vortex.com>
wrote:
=

=


Whether or not it =
can be done as he suggests isn't really the point.
He knows the reality even if he's talking past it for=
 effect.  But
<=
/blockquote>
when someone of =
his stature and representing Microsoft makes such
=

comments at such a gathering, it plays into the hands=
 of those
governments who want to t=
ightly control access to the Net through any
<=
/blockquote>
and all means possible.  So he's still being irrespons=
ible in the
extreme.

--Lauren--
<=
blockquote type=3D"cite">
<=
/blockquote>
<=
/span>

=




<=
span>
<=
br>
-- 
Dan Steinberg

SYNTHESIS:Law & Technology
35, du Ravin phone: (613) 7=
94-5356
Chelse=
a, Quebec
J9B =
1N1

--Boundary_(ID_ouggZLiENK6BD5NhMx7R2Q)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Wed Feb 3 23:09:10 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXA00501U724A@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 23:09:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXA00501U6X45@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Wed, 03 Feb 2010 23:08:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX900L01GSJLT@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 05:21:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KX900HCOGSJP7@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 05:21:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 823BEBDC79 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 05:21:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EE37BDC77 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 05:21:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 750CFBBB35 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 05:21:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A7F4AE422 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 05:18:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP02.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.197]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E154AE421 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 05:18:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.9] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o13AIAu0014678 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 05:18:10 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 05:18:09 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Unintended consequence of Comcast's 250 GB transfer limit To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <22CEAAF8-92E4-4CBE-82BA-13137B3A8FD0@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=VaEXBbTQL1R1fJEtn m4PPDMzjoU=; b=bbfCy6PAAlaNg6XdoZMA10DAgdlCASDdjZopOS0jgPm2PUJ+A 6rOV+3Ja03yheg+uby9xOGxPXtC1Zs3XdX39g== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.197 X-Listbox-UUID: 6F797ABC-10AD-11DF-AAD0-EA93A52306B0 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <314ba9201002022158q3bdb0a60se1be1d3d4aaa139c@mail.gmail.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Steve Stroh Date: February 3, 2010 12:58:12 AM EST To: David Farber Subject: Unintended consequence of Comcast's 250 GB transfer limit Dave: For IP if you wish. When Comcast made their online tool available for monitoring one's monthly transfers, a friend of mine was appalled at how little of "his" 250 GB / month he was actually using. So he set out to find good uses for the 250 GB / month he's paying for. So far... Downloading quite a bit of the TED talks - that was a mere 10 GB. Project Gutenberg's archives were good for 100 GB. One thing that comes to mind is the various Linux ISOs... ALL of them that are updated within the month. Why not - he IS paying for it, and as Comcast makes clear with their tool, it's perfectly OK with them as long as you don't exceed 250 GB in one month. I suspect that my friend is merely the tiniest tip of a very, very big "bandwidth iceberg" for Comcast, and that the unintended consequence of the 250 GB "cap" and the transfer monitoring tool will end up "encouraging" _more_ downloads than if they had left well enough alone and called it "unlimited". Of course... where to put all this data... that's another interesting problem... but a 2 TB drive every six months isn't too terrible an expense :-) Thanks, Steve Stroh -- steve@stevestroh.net -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Wed Feb 3 23:09:11 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXA00501U724A@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 23:09:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXA00501U6X45@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Wed, 03 Feb 2010 23:08:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX900O01HWYRN@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 05:46:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.83]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KX900MATHWYTK@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 05:46:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34111BCF98 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 05:45:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.87]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3237CBCF97 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 05:45:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2622BBDED6 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 05:45:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1C64B12AA for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 05:39:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP02.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.197]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5256BB12A9 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 05:38:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.9] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o13AcvRC014735 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 05:38:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 05:38:57 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Anyone know anything about the white space implementation in Claudville Virginia? To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0BEED704-9A15-4C36-A8FA-0DCC684C0A81@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_6rrrwSD7XXPiqnpizrUiSg)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:subject:date:references:to:message-id:mime-version :reply-to:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s= launch; bh=eVroBHY3y6exfbAzSCZnhxahAdU=; b=eEZu9uUAfC9oyGqsWiaGL 1AD9nThg5ahdaoMQyhRcTVcx3ZnUFjRQlXQoTChLhePERoTIUrLryl66UzPCLTQ8 w== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.197 X-Listbox-UUID: 570B6B18-10B0-11DF-95A1-AC58C73876D9 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <001001caa4b3$f5306050$df9120f0$@net> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_6rrrwSD7XXPiqnpizrUiSg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Begin forwarded message: =46rom: "George Ou" Date: February 3, 2010 4:33:34 AM EST To: "'Richard Bennett'" Cc: , "Brett Glass" , "Dale Hatfie= ld" Subject: RE: Anyone know anything about the white space implementatio= n in Claudville Virginia? That would be my guess. But if that=92s true, seems like they=92re j= ust using white spaces for the sake of using it. It=92s notable that= they=92re not using WS for the access layer. If we listened to some= of the advocates, they make it sound like this 4 watt ERP solution i= s going to replace LTE and Wi-Fi combined. =20 =46rom: Richard Bennett [mailto:richard@bennett.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 1:15 AM To: George Ou Cc: dave@farber.net; Brett Glass; Dale Hatfield Subject: Re: Anyone know anything about the white space implementatio= n in Claudville Virginia? =20 It's probably like microwave with directional antennas, but I don't r= eally know.=20 On 2/2/2010 10:02 PM, George Ou wrote: http://broadcastengineering.com/news/nations-first-white-spaces-netwo= rk-live-rural-virginia-1026/ =20 =46rom what I am reading, they=92re using Wi-Fi for the access layer = and White Spaces for backhaul. I=92m assuming that it=92s some type = of point-to-point connection with very directional antennas, but not = sure if it=92s using line of sight or if it=92s simply throwing out a= signal in a general direction and using refraction to get to the oth= er side. If it was just using line of sight, it would seem that the = use of 700 MHz is a waste since you could achieve the same thing with= 5 GHz and not have to worry about TV interference. =20 =20 George Ou www.DigitalSociety.org 202-360-4964 Direct 408-338-5848 Mobile =20 --=20 Richard Bennett Research Fellow Information Technology and Innovation Foundation Washington, DC ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_6rrrwSD7XXPiqnpizrUiSg) Content-type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

Begin forwarded message:

From: "George Ou" <george_ou@lanarchitect.net>
Date: February 3, 2010 4:33:34 AM EST
=
To: "'Richard Bennett'" &= lt;richard@bennett.com>=
Cc: = <dave@farber.net>, "Brett Glass" &= lt;brett@lariat.net>, "Dal= e Hatfield" <busdale@eart= hlink.net>
Subject: RE: Anyone know anything about the white space imp= lementation in Claudville Virginia?

That would be my guess.  But= if that=92s true, seems like they=92re just using white spaces for t= he sake of using it.  It=92s notable that they=92re not using WS= for the access layer.  If we listened to some of the advocates,= they make it sound like this 4 watt ERP solution is going to replace= LTE and Wi-Fi combined.
 
From: Richard Bennett [mailto:richard@bennett.com]=  
Sent: Wednesday, February = 03, 2010 1:15 AM
To:&= nbsp;George Ou
Cc: dave@farber.net; Brett Glass; = Dale Hatfield
Subject: Re: Anyone know anything about the white space implemen= tation in Claudville Virginia?
 
It's = probably like microwave with directional antennas, but I don't really= know. 

On 2= /2/2010 10:02 PM, George Ou wrote:
 
From what I am reading, they=92re using Wi-Fi for the access la= yer and White Spaces for backhaul.  I=92m assuming that it=92s s= ome type of point-to-point connection with very directional antennas,= but not sure if it=92s using line of sight or if it=92s simply throw= ing out a signal in a general direction and using refraction to get t= o the other side.  If it was just using line of sight, it would = seem that the use of 700 MHz is a waste since you could achieve the s= ame thing with 5 GHz and not have to worry about TV interference.
 
 
George Ou
 = 


-- 
Richard Bennett
Research Fellow
Information Technology and Innovation Foundation
Washington, DC
<= /div>
--Boundary_(ID_6rrrwSD7XXPiqnpizrUiSg)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Wed Feb 3 23:09:12 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXA00501U724A@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 23:09:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXA00501U6X45@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Wed, 03 Feb 2010 23:08:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX900E01ON1CR@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 08:11:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KX900BF9ON18W@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 08:11:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09674BD4B3 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 08:10:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 060FABD4B2 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 08:10:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9032BBA1C for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 08:10:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F5E0AEA49 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 08:06:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A1C9AEA48 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 08:06:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.9] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o13D6GTn029418 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 08:06:16 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 08:06:15 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] The balance of power in airport security screening To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <431A635C-49FE-42AF-8EE8-E73F713B2740@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=o54YqmAxbXbrrIkpu ++BbfLau9Y=; b=hyUvIDrVE+qu/8K8BVsfnsSPL526YS+vayq2LRisWap3gDxBx CH5RG5TsjX9nHRxW5B/WQOAaHkA4UHb9rbsIg== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: EB483E78-10C4-11DF-9A7E-F188A52306B0 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <1265200278.4168.17.camel@dogmatix> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Gordon Syme Date: February 3, 2010 7:31:18 AM EST To: dave@farber.net Subject: The balance of power in airport security screening Prof. Farber, for IP if you wish: According to http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8490860.stm passengers 'selected' to be scanned by the full-body scanners (the article does not specify if they are X-ray or not) have no choice, they must either submit to the scan or not fly. There is no alternative pat-down or similar. Many commentators make the point that it is travellers fault for complying with these measures en masse that allow them to be implemented, generally while quoting Benjamin Franklin. However this completely ignores the balance of power you experience while travelling through an airport. For many people, myself included, the cost of travel is significant. We are put in a situation where we either submit silently to every demand placed upon us by security screeners or we stand to lose everything we have paid for flights, hotels etc. I put forward that this is not a case of people being willing to submit to any and all security measures because they are scared of terrorism, it is people balancing the cost of whatever inconvenient or degrading measures are put in front of them against the financial cost of non-compliance (or even causing a scene by asking questions). Until the inconvenience cost outweighs the financial cost the only sensible thing to do is go along with whatever the screeners tell you you must do. And so I ask IP, what can the ordinary person do about this, short of never flying again? -Gordon -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Wed Feb 3 23:09:13 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXA00501U724A@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 23:09:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXA00501U6X45@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Wed, 03 Feb 2010 23:08:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX900E01OSNGT@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 08:14:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KX900BHAOSN8W@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 08:14:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34CD3BD9E9 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 08:14:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FBA0BD9E7 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 08:14:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19EEFBB6A6 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 08:14:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16A6FB0F89 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 08:09:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEA13B0F87 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 08:09:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.9] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o13D9hFc029497 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 03 Feb 2010 08:09:43 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 08:09:43 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: The balance of power in airport security screening In-reply-to: <1265200278.4168.17.camel@dogmatix> To: ip Cc: Ip Ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <07B434EC-5628-4B3B-9FAB-38264F2C24A8@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=subject :mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:reply-to :list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=UgElXESb4J20szTi65eXJElUfuc=; b=aZDm65XncwK6flRvvQHGxIuSoIq7 NO2eXpN3GXHt9/3TmYrAh40xN8mi1+kl0cMu2Ter/Be3nNteBzhoQDJIiA== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 6D1340C4-10C5-11DF-A2DD-B0E4A739743B X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <1265200278.4168.17.camel@dogmatix> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 At least for now, one choice is to avoid flying through the UK airpor= ts on a connecting basis at least. If there were a significent drop i= n business the airlines would react. Dave On Feb 3, 2010, at 7:31 AM, Gordon Syme wrote: Prof. Farber,=20 for IP if you wish: According to http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8490860.stm passenger= s 'selected' to be scanned by the full-body scanners (the article does = not specify if they are X-ray or not) have no choice, they must either submit to the scan or not fly. There is no alternative pat-down or similar. -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Wed Feb 3 23:09:14 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXA00501U724A@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 23:09:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXA00501U6X45@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Wed, 03 Feb 2010 23:08:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KX900N01SGEDW@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 09:33:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KX900JTISGE4O@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 09:33:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.38]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD391BE603 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 09:33:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA05DBE4EF for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 09:33:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F4CAB1960 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 09:31:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-vw0-f42.google.com (mail-vw0-f42.google.com [209.85.212.42]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A2F6B195F for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 09:31:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by vws18 with SMTP id 18so333511vws.15 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 06:31:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.123.215 with SMTP id q23mr10344625vcr.59.1265207506785; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 06:31:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?128.237.231.109? (CMU-356848.WV.CC.CMU.EDU [128.237.231.109]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 39sm81088181vws.14.2010.02.03.06.31.43 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 03 Feb 2010 06:31:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 09:30:47 -0500 From: Dave Farber Subject: [IP] The balance of power in airport security screening To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7D11) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7D11) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_i9QtLScQznk6RVZ/1WWAwA)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:mime-version :subject:date:references; bh=UWBP1JXX5dYdzsiCrPtV1f7PG+QAVaTLx5IrgS8SYz0=; b=D9+v7dOlRCi2kNS9T4+ua7u6OAy+bwC7JdkPx/o4X4BxV++DJVR3738lTh1dSeWmds qg/5nTKNhqgpfbjocf2QPP2Qzotw8naQjv9b0lTTRE/BZAd/KdVJIaRhRUNvUw+it5dY QelJ4/i+WFXlKZ/NOFsBU5n7WMsgWLHlMQcXk= X-Listbox-UUID: DCCFD840-10D0-11DF-82FB-968A9CA7ADA2 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <4E4B84C7-82E7-403C-9AD7-6D0348E823D0@infowarrior.org> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :x-mailer:mime-version:subject:date:references; b=R0nLLV/XuH+UJzl1Ki54HFttg9ScKlNF69a/LgghmW51B89RUyzzkJQ12AjJkTZzoE mU25aguWAQaWMmVCbik95pLNOEuuhv5ANsWVVKlVz2dd5gjcKdUdMz94yXnkdXebanLS ivIdliM4ghJTBnf/ogz1qRbGW6CZIPpO98Wi8= --Boundary_(ID_i9QtLScQznk6RVZ/1WWAwA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Begin forwarded message: > From: Richard Forno > Date: February 3, 2010 9:04:57 AM EST > To: dave@farber.net > Cc: ip > Subject: Re: [IP] Re: The balance of power in airport security > screening > > > While I agree w/the original poster's note (keeping in mind the > present-day UK is far beyond Orwell's thinking at the time) isn't > DHS buying 450+ scanners following the crotchbombing attempt? That > would suggest a similar "scan-or-walk" policy will be here in the US > at some point, for that size of a purchase is too big to be > "optional" for American travellers. > > For me, don't mind security. What I do resent is the "faceless > bureaucracy of the state" that seems to epitomize TSA. Comply-or- > walk. Don't question. Perpetally wondering if anything you do or > ask will land you on a watchlist you can't get off of until you die, > and even then, maybe. > > As to what to do? > > (1) Reduce flying. I know I have. I pretty much figure it'll be a > wasted day when planning my schedule, and then have some fudge- > factor on the end if I need it. To wit -- what used to be a 2 hour > shuttle from DC to NYC is a half-day-or-more affair since you > never know what kind of security lines there will be when you get > there or what will happen once you do get screened. Which brings > me to .... > > (2) Reduce exposure to chaos. I fly ONLY non-stop since 9/11. > Why? From a 'homeland security' perspective you reduce the risk of > having your flight delayed due to terminals being flushed and > passengers rescreened because they found a tweezer in the mens room > (circa 2002) or because some romantic putz wants one last peck from > his girlfriend and violates security. Or, if you want to play it > safe or as a capitalist..... > > (3) Buy stock in Cisco and HP to capitalize on their telepresence > services being used by folks fed up with this Homeland Hores--t done > in the name of protecting the country. > > -rf > > On Feb 3, 2010, at 08:09 , David Farber wrote: > >> At least for now, one choice is to avoid flying through the UK >> airports on a connecting basis at least. If there were a >> significent drop in business the airlines would react. >> >> Dave >> >> On Feb 3, 2010, at 7:31 AM, Gordon Syme wrote: >> >> Prof. Farber, >> >> for IP if you wish: >> >> According to http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8490860.stm >> passengers >> 'selected' to be scanned by the full-body scanners (the article >> does not >> specify if they are X-ray or not) have no choice, they must either >> submit to the scan or not fly. There is no alternative pat-down or >> similar. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------- >> > > ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_i9QtLScQznk6RVZ/1WWAwA) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE




Begin= forwarded message:

Fr= om: Richard Forno <r= forno@infowarrior.org>
Date: February 3, 2010 9:04:5= 7 AM EST
To: dave@farber.net
Cc: ip = <ip@v2.listbox.com>Subject: Re: [IP] Re:    The balance of power in= airport security screening

=

While I agree w= /the original poster's note (keeping in mind the present-day UK is fa= r beyond Orwell's thinking at the time)  isn't DHS buying 450+ s= canners following the crotchbombing attempt?  That would suggest= a similar "scan-or-walk" policy will be here in the US at some point= , for that size of a purchase is too big to be "optional" for America= n travellers.

For me, don't mind sec= urity.  What I do resent is the "faceless bureaucracy of the sta= te" that seems to epitomize TSA.  Comply-or-walk.  Don't qu= estion.  Perpetally wondering if anything you do or ask will lan= d you on a watchlist you can't get off of until you die, and even the= n, maybe.

As to what to do?
(1)  Reduce flying.  I know I have= .  I pretty much figure it'll be a wasted day when planning my s= chedule, and then have some fudge-factor on the end if I need it. &nb= sp;To wit -- what used to be a 2 hour shuttle from DC to NYC  &n= bsp;is a half-day-or-more affair since you never know what kind of se= curity lines there will be when you get there or what will happen onc= e you do get screened.   Which brings me to ....
=
(2) Reduce exposure to chaos.  I fly ONLY= non-stop since 9/11.  Why?  From a 'homeland security' per= spective you reduce the risk of having your flight delayed due to ter= minals being flushed and passengers rescreened because they found a t= weezer in the mens room (circa 2002) or because some romantic putz wa= nts one last peck from his girlfriend and violates security.  Or= , if you want to play it safe or as a capitalist.....

(3) Buy stock in Cisco and HP to capitalize on thei= r telepresence services being used by folks fed up with this Homeland= Hores--t done in the name of protecting the country.

-rf

On Feb 3, 2010= , at 08:09 , David Farber wrote:

At least for now, one choice is to avoid flyin= g through the UK airports on a connecting basis at least. If there we= re a significent drop in business the airlines would react.

Dave

On Feb 3, 2010, at 7:31 AM, Gordon Syme wrote:
<= /blockquote>

<= blockquote type=3D"cite">Prof. Farber,
<= blockquote type=3D"cite">
for IP if you wish:

According to http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8490860.stm pass= engers
'select= ed' to be scanned by the full-body scanners (the article does not
specify if they a= re X-ray or not) have no choice, they must either
submit to the scan or not fly. Th= ere is no alternative pat-down or
similar.


-----------------------= --------------------
RSS Feed:
http://www.listbox.com



--Boundary_(ID_i9QtLScQznk6RVZ/1WWAwA)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Wed Feb 3 23:09:15 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXA00501U724A@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 23:09:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXA00501U6X45@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Wed, 03 Feb 2010 23:08:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXA00N01AY1DC@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 16:13:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KXA00J5GAY189@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 16:13:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.38]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C389BEBCC for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 16:12:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58E7CBE624 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 16:12:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F879B8883 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 16:11:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-bw0-f209.google.com (mail-bw0-f209.google.com [209.85.218.209]) by a-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F559B8882 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 16:11:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by bwz1 with SMTP id 1so1772727bwz.32 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 13:11:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.103.127.35 with SMTP id e35mr90115mun.45.1265231482966; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 13:11:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.0.1.4? (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id n10sm2833975mue.14.2010.02.03.13.11.21 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 03 Feb 2010 13:11:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 16:10:22 -0500 From: Dave Farber Subject: [IP] ugtbk The balance of power in airport security screening To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7E18) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7E18) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_ilYlY5Sg+j9YrNgOFIbPjA)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:mime-version :subject:date:references; bh=cUcE5uGyuQl/L/92HuSrKTUCV/aCXaQfQumLGiHLRhE=; b=wSMH+Yr3H6xRtvt8IGMrwF+o5St3Q/2/R9o/Yuwi4RgB8jtMt37sxkDmDqTH7g7gj8 F04cnQkVsC7tot+lLKSgLPmlX/mhombmNCUvl2ndvIMUtMONxhvVqqUywDtbTa0+C8Tp zRGVEu4ttZfq0Ax4w0R8BJt/dY+NGrNxkXsT4= X-Listbox-UUID: B0417DF0-1108-11DF-B15B-C020FBA804BC X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <1D4CBE54-1E1F-4276-AAD0-122ADC43E526@tamboli.cx> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :x-mailer:mime-version:subject:date:references; b=YbqpQS404oumz7NJGqlSkwV2j5sETbVYPSS2g8ihDQJVHfKE8R9EF4D8HJFa8kyd6l isjIinbPqc3oZXwt1Y+jHUmrRA1OseR4xTcXda8qeLo8nEx3Sjl864vTFQOVEV/YNpr/ mxkzBCRIwDuvPzchIsL4tgEUB63z07z5N0h6A= --Boundary_(ID_ilYlY5Sg+j9YrNgOFIbPjA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Begin forwarded message: > From: Jay Goodman Tamboli > Date: February 3, 2010 3:11:35 PM EST > To: dave@farber.net > Subject: Re: [IP] The balance of power in airport security screening > > ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_ilYlY5Sg+j9YrNgOFIbPjA) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT




Begin forwarded message:

From: Jay Goodman Tamboli <jay@tamboli.cx>
Date: February 3, 2010 3:11:35 PM EST
To: dave@farber.net
Subject: Re: [IP] The balance of power in airport security screening

--Boundary_(ID_ilYlY5Sg+j9YrNgOFIbPjA)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Wed Feb 3 23:09:16 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXA00501U724A@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 23:09:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXA00501U6X45@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Wed, 03 Feb 2010 23:08:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXA00301DPCBJ@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 17:12:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KXA0028TDPC36@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 17:12:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4655BBD69B for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 17:12:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4300DBE7F6 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 17:12:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B9EAB8BA0 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 17:11:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from ey-out-2122.google.com (ey-out-2122.google.com [74.125.78.24]) by a-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EB26B8B9F for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 17:11:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by ey-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id d26so1453392eyd.7 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 14:11:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.213.100.133 with SMTP id y5mr2711900ebn.26.1265235060599; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 14:11:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.0.1.4? (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 24sm423025eyx.14.2010.02.03.14.10.59 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 03 Feb 2010 14:11:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 17:10:00 -0500 From: Dave Farber Subject: [IP] reThe balance of power in airport security screening To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7E18) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7E18) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_CMXk75uQd01TMWmV3xDPnQ)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:mime-version :subject:date:references; bh=po9Vp/45pywAXdUsyB+OLz2OM87UEuvzu3AFouow7xw=; b=BkBUwqOFDIBs+sDr/vf/jONeIamW1U8SYfN5mfB0NG+fP8D7NmQI6cD8XHBbbcHjLj waW269f3e8Perf3wQ7OlJ8xm6UJVc/WKYXOotaGfRCWX8XFaFQ/eaqHPTga3wc8S//AG x4xuzrNIUzNAAbvse18/M4GGvMEeC4VJpEZxk= X-Listbox-UUID: 0453FEA6-1111-11DF-B6B5-BB531950B55F X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <1D4CBE54-1E1F-4276-AAD0-122ADC43E526@tamboli.cx> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :x-mailer:mime-version:subject:date:references; b=OhaG/X3NPg/7x0BXa2BGfUJ06hp5do2X96iaynO9gfV3M1viO6NdFbeVHFNyYQepMZ 8fRJ+jxQvlg9VeUfHxr6BVoKQZIuupW9MffX3KANholHJOjgCtuERG0ZW2J9xxHe4BJv nflNpsQ5MFLOg1XvQaaVDXNo+eP3SxJc3HsYA= --Boundary_(ID_CMXk75uQd01TMWmV3xDPnQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Begin forwarded message: > From: Jay Goodman Tamboli > Date: February 3, 2010 3:11:35 PM EST > To: dave@farber.net > Subject: Re: [IP] The balance of power in airport security screening > > On Feb 3, 2010, at 08:06, Gordon Syme wrote: > >> According to http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8490860.stm >> passengers >> 'selected' to be scanned by the full-body scanners (the article >> does not >> specify if they are X-ray or not) have no choice, they must either >> submit to the scan or not fly. There is no alternative pat-down or >> similar. > > It's actually worse than that in some parts of the US. According to > a 9th Circuit Court of Appeals ruling in August 2007, you don't have > a right even to turn around and leave once you've entered the > screening process. If you're selected for a body scan and say you'd > rather not fly, the TSA has the right to detain you and screen you > anyway. The case is United States v. Aukai, and it's described at http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2007/08/court-says-trav/ > . > > /jgt > -- > http://tamboli.cx/ ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_CMXk75uQd01TMWmV3xDPnQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE




Begin= forwarded message:

Fr= om: Jay Goodman Tamboli <jay= @tamboli.cx>
Date: February 3, 2010 3:11:35 PM ESTTo: dave@farber.net
Subject: Re: [IP] = The balance of power in airport security screening

<= /blockquote>
On Feb 3,= 2010, at 08:06, Gordon Syme wrote:

According to http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/84908= 60.stm passengers
'selected' to be scanned by the full-body scanners (the artic= le does not
sp= ecify if they are X-ray or not) have no choice, they must either
submit to the scan= or not fly. There is no alternative pat-down or
similar.

It's actually worse than that in some parts of t= he US. According to a 9th Circuit Court of Appeals ruling in August 2= 007, you don't have a right even to turn around and leave once you've= entered the screening process. If you're selected for a body scan an= d say you'd rather not fly, the TSA has the right to detain you and s= creen you anyway. The case is United States v. Aukai, and it's descri= bed at http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2007/08/court-says-trav/= .

/jgt
-- http://tamboli.cx/
--Boundary_(ID_CMXk75uQd01TMWmV3xDPnQ)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Feb 5 08:09:48 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXD00701DW79Y@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 05 Feb 2010 08:09:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXD00701DW39S@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 05 Feb 2010 08:09:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXB00O01QYJ2M@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 10:56:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KXB00JGDQYJ8C@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 10:56:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 440BEBD2A6 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 10:56:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41E9FBD2A2 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 10:56:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A3DABB6CF for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 10:56:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 314C4B14CE for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 10:51:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from gv-out-0910.google.com (gv-out-0910.google.com [216.239.58.187]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08FD4B14CD for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 10:51:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by gv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id c6so32695gvd.18 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 07:51:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.102.210.2 with SMTP id i2mr792640mug.134.1265298704613; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 07:51:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.0.1.4? (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id e8sm1560384muf.35.2010.02.04.07.51.42 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 04 Feb 2010 07:51:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 10:50:43 -0500 From: Dave Farber Subject: [IP] Google enlists NSA to fight off cyberattacks To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <1D4C2A4C-5DC9-49CD-9188-5D5ABC410B98@me.com> MIME-version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7E18) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7E18) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_b45T7hx6WuPx5xCEnIyxFw)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=message-id :from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:date:references:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=oVahUUfsSlzRU/6HE QcJXFxlE0k=; b=ilV4siCrklLdHmdsmTb03ZPXO4C6S/cPB5nq9SeQ73mdBbZAL W62cY1ckdELADc8aVJ/FEvq4GbHWQ3mi7PfCg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:mime-version :subject:date:references; bh=yLXIZ4Psh71kwcPdUvmIbb/xxLWIJoRMZJURLbkWJ0U=; b=eWoobImLd6sZojSC/Sxy1Qb+1C0ArzsQfabEBMVmIspM5U7LYy4uzTuq3riJVbvTYD qUM8wG/lx/7IPvGmlLQbWRLJ2XIEMdVUsGjjJr3X27Wd4R0OUGX/mo4Dx7RB9dOboLdH ow/9/9DmDdb4kyDkAiZga9gyOq4uJM8LbIeh4= X-Listbox-UUID: 33965D14-11A5-11DF-A961-FD37FB9CDD1B X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <00cd01caa59e$3eb14060$bc13c120$@rr.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :x-mailer:mime-version:subject:date:references; b=tExuPbEJrp5NFY6wVc9WeQYqg2zF7H/Jj4tN01fk6pBThKimHirShPHjmNFk9A1v67 MqanjWmuLG+w1hRqu3E+UxYB2ZeSCup5TaN96T8WqLNZ+3ZbgoEvTARj91xEkEthXRmR ZU0i1aTs2Q+Xk6Z4tJCcxDXVoSi+UaHFNf2R0= --Boundary_(ID_b45T7hx6WuPx5xCEnIyxFw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Begin forwarded message: > From: James Brenton > Date: February 4, 2010 8:30:40 AM EST > To: dave@farber.net, 'ip' > Subject: [IP] Google enlists NSA to fight off cyberattacks > > Dave, > > > > Wow=E2=80=94now this is a surprise. Not that it is happening, but = that the =20 > knowledge made it to the public: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/352314= 54/ns/technology_and_science-washington_post/ > > > > Under an agreement that is still being finalized, the National = =20 > Security Agency would help Google analyze a major corporate =20 > espionage attack that the firm said originated in China and targete= d =20 > its computer networks, according to cybersecurity experts familiar = =20 > with the matter. The objective is to better defend Google =E2=80= =94 and its =20 > users =E2=80=94 from future attack. > > > > Google and the NSA declined to comment on the partnership. But = =20 > sources with knowledge of the arrangement, speaking on the conditio= n =20 > of anonymity, said the alliance is being designed to allow the two = =20 > organizations to share critical information without violating =20 > Google's policies or laws that protect the privacy of Americans' = =20 > online communications. The sources said the deal does not mean the = =20 > NSA will be viewing users' searches or e-mail accounts or that = =20 > Google will be sharing proprietary data. > > > > Best Regards, > > Jim Brenton > > jbrenton@austin.rr.com > > jbrenton@ercot.com > > > > From: Dave Farber [mailto:dave@farber.net] > Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 4:10 PM > To: ip > Subject: [IP] reThe balance of power in airport security screening > > > > > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Jay Goodman Tamboli > Date: February 3, 2010 3:11:35 PM EST > To: dave@farber.net > Subject: Re: [IP] The balance of power in airport security screenin= g > > On Feb 3, 2010, at 08:06, Gordon Syme wrote: > > > > According to http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8490860.stm passeng= ers > > 'selected' to be scanned by the full-body scanners (the article doe= s =20 > not > > specify if they are X-ray or not) have no choice, they must either > > submit to the scan or not fly. There is no alternative pat-down or > > similar. > > > It's actually worse than that in some parts of the US. According to= =20 > a 9th Circuit Court of Appeals ruling in August 2007, you don't hav= e =20 > a right even to turn around and leave once you've entered the =20 > screening process. If you're selected for a body scan and say you'd= =20 > rather not fly, the TSA has the right to detain you and screen you = =20 > anyway. The case is United States v. Aukai, and it's described at h= ttp://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2007/08/court-says-trav/=20 > . > > /jgt > --=20 > http://tamboli.cx/ > > Archives > > > > ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_b45T7hx6WuPx5xCEnIyxFw) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE




Begin= forwarded message:

Fr= om: James Brenton <j= brenton@austin.rr.com>
Date: February 4, 2010 8:30:4= 0 AM EST
To: dave@farber= .net, 'ip' <ip@v2.listbox= .com>
Subject: [IP] Google enlists NSA to fight o= ff cyberattacks

Dave,

 

Wow=E2=80=94now this is a surprise.  Not that it = is happening, but that the knowledge made it to the public: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3523145= 4/ns/technology_and_science-washington_post/

 

Under an agreement that is still being finalized, the = National Security Agency would help Google analyze a major corporate espionage= attack that the firm said originated in China and targeted its computer netw= orks, according to cybersecurity experts familiar with the matter. The obje= ctive is to better defend Google =E2=80=94 and its users =E2=80=94 from future= attack.

 

Google and the NSA declined to comment on the partners= hip. But sources with knowledge of the arrangement, speaking on the condition = of anonymity, said the alliance is being designed to allow the two organ= izations to share critical information without violating Google's policies or = laws that protect the privacy of Americans' online communications. The sources = said the deal does not mean the NSA will be viewing users' searches or e-mail = accounts or that Google will be sharing proprietary data.

 

Best Regards,

Jim Brenton

jbrenton@austin.rr.com

jbrenton@ercot.com

 

From: Dave Farber [mailto:dave@farber.net]
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 4:10 PM
To: ip
Subject: [IP] reThe balance of power in airport security scree= ning

 




Begin forwarded message:

From: Ja= y Goodman Tamboli <jay@tamboli.cx>
Date: February 3, 2010 3:11:35 PM EST
To: dave@farber.net
Subject: Re: [IP] The balance of power in airport security = screening

On Feb 3, 2010, at 08:06, Gordon Syme wrote:

According to http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8490860.stm passengers

'selected' to be scanned by the full-body scan= ners (the article does not

specify if they are X-ray or not) have no choi= ce, they must either

submit to the scan or not fly. There is no alt= ernative pat-down or

similar.


It's actually worse than that in some parts of the US. According to a= 9th Circuit Court of Appeals ruling in August 2007, you don't have a righ= t even to turn around and leave once you've entered the screening process. If y= ou're selected for a body scan and say you'd rather not fly, the TSA has th= e right to detain you and screen you anyway. The case is United States v. Aukai,= and it's described at http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2007/08/court-says-tr= av/.

/jgt
--
http://= tamboli.cx/

Archives

<= a href=3D"http://www.listbox.com">

 

--Boundary_(ID_b45T7hx6WuPx5xCEnIyxFw)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Feb 5 08:09:49 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXD00701DW79Y@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 05 Feb 2010 08:09:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXD00701DW39S@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 05 Feb 2010 08:09:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXB00O01R43DZ@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 11:00:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KXB00IYBR43QU@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 11:00:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0728BE0CB for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 10:59:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD82DBE024 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 10:59:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70E01B8CF5 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 10:58:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-fx0-f224.google.com (mail-fx0-f224.google.com [209.85.220.224]) by a-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B36DAB8CF4 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 10:58:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by fxm24 with SMTP id 24so950918fxm.3 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 07:58:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.223.17.19 with SMTP id q19mr1353945faa.75.1265299094922; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 07:58:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.0.1.4? (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 13sm535257fks.15.2010.02.04.07.58.13 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 04 Feb 2010 07:58:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 10:57:15 -0500 From: Dave Farber Subject: [IP] Check out Microsoft and National Science Foundation to Make Joint Announcemen To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0FF4353E-AC47-4710-930E-3803E877CE6C@me.com> MIME-version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7E18) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7E18) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_vjjB5O71MOO6i1rIGtpWfQ)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:mime-version :subject:date:references; bh=Is016VykuoVQFc0NpR6E1ztEQxrDrJtKi0ULb2WExoo=; b=LKPdDf1AWjyRdxV41DOQz/9/KiSXOmtkdWzKkei5o9JODDC22xn0QRq43ZV7wpF6K7 E7o5esE2sVwcgBFEf6uV5Y28HvDrhvbljDone9VUAF5xBnuQZTJ3hwfFk6BJ7gMaPmU6 bmGFfN4v8wGwQleJFiAYrfCaZvZXYs2RW5ZAQ= X-Listbox-UUID: 1D76C91E-11A6-11DF-AAC1-BD2AD21800EA X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <2054b.64d564b7.389b9960@aol.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :x-mailer:mime-version:subject:date:references; b=d2elnH4ZyDtR4xrLSoNH+thDXCIrjtsNfvv2dul4vkJiKnmniXihE0RNNWRS5hb0Kl BtX+NcaWntwq1Vvjz8cdMNCcNTNcCJYp8DI6Y9h6GTeAazJi1hkhJyehKurHJ9oQFIUa L6TYrQFl6WsxYaleJOPSLHsa5+S67cU1PDJXU= --Boundary_(ID_vjjB5O71MOO6i1rIGtpWfQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Begin forwarded message: > From: GLIGOR1@aol.com > Date: February 3, 2010 10:30:40 PM EST > To: dave@farber.net > Subject: Check out Microsoft and National Science Foundation to Make > Joint Announcemen > > Click here: Microsoft and National Science Foundation to Make Joint > Announcement - AOL Money & Finance ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_vjjB5O71MOO6i1rIGtpWfQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT




Begin forwarded message:

From: GLIGOR1@aol.com
Date: February 3, 2010 10:30:40 PM EST
To: dave@farber.net
Subject: Check out Microsoft and National Science Foundation to Make Joint Announcemen

--Boundary_(ID_vjjB5O71MOO6i1rIGtpWfQ)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Feb 5 08:09:50 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXD00701DW79Y@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 05 Feb 2010 08:09:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXD00701DW39S@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 05 Feb 2010 08:09:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXB00F01X74C5@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:11:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.83]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KXB00BM3X74V8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:11:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40213BD178 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:10:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.87]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D4D9BD176 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:10:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30157BD5B4 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:10:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02833B1E58 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:07:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP02.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.197]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A840DB1E57 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:07:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.10] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o14I79iW008653 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:07:10 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:07:09 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] truncated email etc in IP To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <23D01C21-1A3C-4661-BC01-EC604EC1CA23@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:message-id :to:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe :list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=eWZFl3edvwtXBhQwrTAlliXaLG8=; b=KZ fbrdPwVjeD4GZJiJX47rRh2dMz6z9etFyQ97OxCE44CBTRv3uixAwo/RZAiKbqz7 blQb4rN5xdOSSD8w4SiA== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.197 X-Listbox-UUID: 1DF12D82-11B8-11DF-BE1F-AB9F4BE1F693 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 it seems that I've located the problem with truncated Mail. Truncat= ion happens when I use the iPhone to forward mail. It's is not consis= tent and may involve some punctuation within the message I attempt = to forward. Due to a sad property of Apple's iPhone me.com there is = no way to specify a reply to field, therefore I use Gmail'ssmtp. I su= spect those that it is theMail.app that is the problem. I'm invest= igating further and will report what I learned. I believe I have cured the undelivered mail problem by cleaning up th= e delivery paths for my mail. We will see Dave -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Feb 5 08:09:51 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXD00701DW79Y@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 05 Feb 2010 08:09:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXD00701DW39S@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 05 Feb 2010 08:09:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXB00F01XGPZY@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:17:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KXB00BRRXGPV8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:17:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56033BD44C for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:16:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54077BE6DE for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:16:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFDF7B1B9D for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:15:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP02.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.197]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F961B1B9C for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:15:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.10] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o14IFYBr008988 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:15:34 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:15:34 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Re: The balance of power in airport security screening To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <31CFAD78-B61A-4BE3-93AF-C52F8200B9A1@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.197 X-Listbox-UUID: 4B598F34-11B9-11DF-9499-EA0E3BAF8CAF X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <105901caa5b7$9e2fa040$da8ee0c0$@frankston.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Editors comment -- I really object to the just "we adapt and move on"= . I would repeat the Germans priest comments but maybe Ben's is more = fitting. "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little = temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." djf=20 Begin forwarded message: =46rom: "Bob Frankston" Date: February 4, 2010 11:32:16 AM EST To: , "'ip'" Subject: RE: [IP] The balance of power in airport security screening Let=92s get a reality check here. Sure there are many of these excess= es and there are principles at stack but for the most part the proces= s operates pretty smoothly, especially for frequent flyers who know t= he routine. When an airport is shutdown it makes national news becaus= e it=92s the exception. =20 This is why there is so little pressure for change =96 few people run= into these problems. Admittedly easy for me to say =96 people who ha= ve chronic issues such as the wrong name or look might think very dif= ferently. =20 I=92m not going to judge whether that=92s good or bad. I=92m just not= ing that we adapt and move on. Sure it was a tad easier before we had= all these security checks. Remember they were introduced in the 60= =92s when hijacking flights to Cuba and insurance bombs were the main= concern and the temperature has ratcheted up so TSA seems like busin= ess as usual. =20 Of course I=92m writing this in flight. Security did want to run may = backpack through an extra time because of the all the gear =96 all ve= ry friendly. =20 =46rom: Dave Farber [mailto:dave@farber.net]=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 06:31 To: ip Subject: [IP] The balance of power in airport security screening -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Feb 5 08:09:52 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXD00701DW79Y@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 05 Feb 2010 08:09:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXD00701DW39S@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 05 Feb 2010 08:09:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXB00G01XNNAU@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:21:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KXB00BVVXNNV8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:21:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCBFEBDFAE for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:20:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA5FDBDFAD for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:20:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0325BBE91 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:20:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0529BB1EA6 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:17:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP02.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.197]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C516DB1EA5 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:17:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.10] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o14IHcY0009067 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:17:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:17:38 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] A Family's Horror -- and the Role of Google Images To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <075DBDEE-4ADD-4789-B50A-8503C3F46437@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=s1GmtIUdg96CZLtcq XmLBuY3CzI=; b=Ot/BglzmxE6yMdBkkCVtg/yNgUF3BWM9NKn15pbxG9Mur41/G l+DYM8NMiXpYGB3/fUUQxpCXH4KapekNjYq2g== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.197 X-Listbox-UUID: 94DA4CCA-11B9-11DF-BB4F-C9D36AAF0896 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <20100203054010.GE7858@vortex.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 Begin forwarded message: From: Lauren Weinstein Date: February 3, 2010 12:40:10 AM EST To: nnsquad@nnsquad.org Subject: [ NNSquad ] A Family's Horror -- and the Role of Google Images A Family's Horror -- and the Role of Google Images http://lauren.vortex.com/archive/000677.html Greetings. I'm about to pose some difficult questions. I won't assert that I know the answers to them all or even suggest that succinct answers are possible. But the questions themselves cut to the heart of some of the most contentious and emotional ethical issues of the Internet today. A California appeals court has just unanimously ruled that a lawsuit may move forward against the California Highway Patrol, related to horrific imagery of an 18-year-old girl decapitated in a single-vehicle traffic accident. The photos were allegedly forwarded by one or more on-scene CHP officers to another party, and then spread widely across the Internet ( http://bit.ly/9u1wqo ). The victim's family has been trying for years to hold the CHP responsible for the dissemination of these images, and to somehow reduce the impact and exploitation of these nightmarish photos and the associated hateful abuse that has spread across the Net. Many of the sites exploiting these images attempt to portray themselves as "educational" in nature -- but in reality most are merely purveyors of what the film industry calls "torture porn" -- but in this case they're dealing with the horrific death of a real person, not fictional characters and special effects. Regular readers know that I'm firmly opposed to censorship and have praised Google's recent commitment to cease censorship of Google search results in China ( http://lauren.vortex.com/archive/000667.html ). I have also suggested in the past that some sort of "dispute resolution" mechanism -- to deal with unusual or exceptional situations triggered by search engine results -- would be worthy of both consideration and debate. If you have a few minutes to spare, here is a pointer to some discussion of this issue ( http://lauren.vortex.com/archive/000254.html ). So it's with some consternation that I consider the easy availability of the accident photos in question being facilitated via Google Images. A simple search on the victim's name in Google Images yields seemingly endless copies of the exceedingly gruesome photos, *even when Google SafeSearch is set to its most strict setting*. Let's be very clear. I'm not suggesting that the photos be banned. And indeed, Google is merely indexing and archiving imagery that is by definition actually posted and hosted at external sites not under Google's control. But even given these facts, would it be fair to say that Google has no role to play in the exploitation and monetization of these images, and in the continuing grief that they cause the victim's parents and other family members? Again, Google isn't the creator or poster of the photos in question. But Google is almost certainly the primary mechanism through which the vast majority of persons discover and locate these images. There are some relatively simple amelioratory steps that I'd suggest in this specific case. Google could take a more proactive stance to avoid having such images being so openly displayed when not in completely unfiltered SafeSearch mode. My hunch is that flagging most of these specific accident photos as posted -- even on an ongoing basis (based on keywords and Google's advanced image analysis algorithms) -- would be relatively straightforward given Google's resources. More broadly, this case brings into focus a class of issues representing extremely difficult ethical dilemmas that often aren't subject to improvement through engineering alone. Censorship is not only dangerous but essentially impossible to completely enforce on the Internet. A single copy of a text or photo (or musical performance or feature film for that matter), posted on the Web is likely to publicly survive in some form into technological perpetuity. That's the reality, like it or not. On the other hand, it can be argued that Google and other aggregators of indexing information and links do bear some ethical responsibility to try -- within the bounds of common sense, free speech, and technical practicality -- to help avoid the widespread dissemination of exceptionally hurtful and damaging materials in unfiltered search result contexts. In other words, it really should not be so easy to stumble across photos of a decapitated 18-year-old girl when Google Image search results are in a strict filtering mode. At the macro level, to say that dealing with such issues is a dilemma presenting major scaling challenges is a significant understatement. But as I've earlier noted, there are a wide variety of situations where the algorithmic precision of search engine rankings can do real and completely unwarranted harm to actual people ( http://lauren.vortex.com/archive/000253.html ). Which brings us to perhaps the most important question associated with this entire topic. From both technical and ethical standpoints, can we honestly say that it's unreasonable or impossible to research and deploy steps that would help prevent thoughtless acts conducted over the course of a few minutes -- like the alleged sending of those accident photos by CHP officers -- from endlessly dragging other persons through a living hell? Not censorship. Not a ban. Not new laws. Rather, just doing a better job at further extending ethical considerations to search, in a fusion of software engineering and humanism. If we instead choose to insist that this cannot be accomplished, we're eerily invoking the lyrics of Tom Lehrer's comedic critique of German/U.S. rocketry pioneer Wernher von Braun": " 'Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down? That's not my department', says Wernher von Braun." As Lehrer sang them, many years ago, the words were very funny indeed. In the real world of the Internet, these ethical issues are both difficult and serious -- but I believe subject to reasonable and effective resolution, given the will to do so. I can think of no organization better positioned and suited than Google to be in the vanguard of this important area. I trust that they are up to the challenge. --Lauren-- Lauren Weinstein lauren@vortex.com Tel: +1 (818) 225-2800 http://www.pfir.org/lauren Co-Founder, PFIR - People For Internet Responsibility - http://www.pfir.org Co-Founder, NNSquad - Network Neutrality Squad - http://www.nnsquad.org Founder, GCTIP - Global Coalition for Transparent Internet Performance - http://www.gctip.org Founder, PRIVACY Forum - http://www.vortex.com Member, ACM Committee on Computers and Public Policy Lauren's Blog: http://lauren.vortex.com Twitter: https://twitter.com/laurenweinstein -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Feb 5 08:09:53 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXD00701DW79Y@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 05 Feb 2010 08:09:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXD00701DW39S@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 05 Feb 2010 08:09:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXB00G01XX3XQ@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:27:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.83]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KXB00G30XX3HZ@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:27:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75476BDB01 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:26:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.87]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 729A9BDAFE for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:26:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62B29BDE66 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:26:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB684B1EC9 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:19:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP02.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.197]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83F6CB1EC8 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:19:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.10] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp02.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o14IJFFI009144 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:19:43 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:19:43 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] new budget for research and education To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=kaWdOFoqdtbTNMeUo YGTNSEK0aM=; b=b94AQD/CARxrQ9AZaDzXDgPZGV7S36nuwhHCl6PvXZLwdTu0D Dc74cBsOVDH9qur3seosBz0ux4j1bgXegYjOA== X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.197 X-Listbox-UUID: DE95B1B0-11B9-11DF-A124-CC1164F77335 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <4B6A3E28.1000209@cmu.edu> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 =46rom TR Daily, 2/1/2010 OSTP BUDGET PROPOSES NON-DEFENSE RESEARCH, EDUCATION INCREASES The Office of Science and Technology Policy said the 2011 budget prop= osal offers a 5.9% year-over-year increase in nondefense research and development spending, to $66 billion, an increase it said reflects th= e Obama administration?s belief ?that investment in science, technology= and innovation is the key to building the American economy of the future.= ? At the same time, the budget offers a 4.5% decrease in Department of Defense research and development funding, to $77.5 billion. Taking in= to account the entire proposed government budget proposal, total U.S. R&= D spending for 2011 amounts to $147.7 billion, down 0.2% from the 2010 level. John Holdren, director of OSTP and assistant to the President for sci= ence and technology, said today the R&D budgets had to be weighed against = the need to reduce federal government budget deficits going forward, and = that ?there were tough decisions made, lots of them.? Within the total R&D budget, the National Institute of Standards and Technology?s (NIST) laboratories, which are involved with spectrum, e= nergy smart grid and cybersecurity issues, among others, are budgeted to ge= t $709 million of funding in 2011, up 6.9% from 2010. The NIST labs, al= ong with the National Science Foundation and the Department of Energy?s O= ffice of Science, are budgeted to receive a 6.6% year-over-year funding inc= rease in 2011, to $13.3 billion. OSTP officials said today that increase is part of a plan establishing a path to double the funding for those entities by 2017. Another big winner in the latest budget proposal are K-12 science, technology, engineering and math (STEM) education programs, which are budgeted at $1 billion for 2011, up 42% from the 2010 level. All STEM education programs across the federal government are budgeted at $3.7 billion for 2011, up 0.9% from 2010. The 2011 budget proposal also makes permanent the federal Research an= d Experimentation Tax Credit, a move that OSTP said will give ?America?= s innovators and entrepreneurs the year-to-year economic stability they= need as they dedicate resources to building the economy of tomorrow.? The latest budget proposes a slight decrease in funding - by $9 milli= on - to $4.3 billion for the multi-agency Networking and Information Techn= ology Research and Development Program, which plans and coordinates agency research efforts in cybersecurity, advanced networking and other area= s. The 2011 budget, OSTP said, ?proposes over $1 billion in additional investments to accelerate job creation through R&D commercialization, deliver broadband for all Americans, instill a culture of open govern= ment, and promote open data standards in national priorities.? On the broad= band front, beyond the $7.2 billion being awarded by the NTIA and the Rura= l Utilities Service as part of the American Recovery and Reinvestment A= ct, the budget proposes $418 million of loans and grants from the Departm= ent of Agriculture to support broadband for rural communities. Regarding the government?s own use of information technology, the administration said in an overview section of the budget titled ?Rest= oring Responsibility,? that despite tens of billions of dollars in federal government spending on IT, ?fragmentation, poor project execution, an= d the drag of legacy technology has not delivered the productivity and performance gains to government that are found when IT is deployed effectively in the private sector.? To close that gap, the administration ?will continue to roll out less intensive and less expensive cloud-computing technologies; reduce the number and cost of Federal data centers; and work with agencies to re= duce the time and effort required to acquire IT, improve the alignment of technology acquisitions with agency needs, and hold providers of IT g= oods and services accountable for their performance.? The administration also called for centralizing provision of IT servi= ces for nonmilitary agencies. ?Following examples set by the Department o= f Defense (DOD), several State governments, and best practices in priva= te industry, the Administration will establish one or more efficient, centralized IT service providers for non-military agencies. . . . It = is projected that this approach could prevent billions in increased cost= s across the federal government over the next few years.? - John Curran= , john.curran@wolterskluwer.com; Lynn Stanton, lynn.stanton@wolterskluwer.com -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Feb 5 08:09:54 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXD00701DW79Y@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 05 Feb 2010 08:09:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXD00701DW39S@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 05 Feb 2010 08:09:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXC00M010B9G8@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 14:18:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KXC00IRU0B9CR@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 14:18:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B1F5BD897 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 14:18:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 981CBBD895 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 14:18:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CF95BC7C5 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 14:18:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3384AB11EC for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 14:14:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-fx0-f224.google.com (mail-fx0-f224.google.com [209.85.220.224]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3178B11EB for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 14:14:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by fxm24 with SMTP id 24so1177440fxm.3 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 11:14:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.223.58.71 with SMTP id f7mr1697521fah.45.1265310884574; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 11:14:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.0.1.4? (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 9sm838131fks.52.2010.02.04.11.14.42 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 04 Feb 2010 11:14:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 14:13:45 -0500 From: Dave Farber Subject: [IP] Re: The balance of power in airport security screening To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <6967ED4E-5CFE-4422-A399-5DF97C233504@me.com> MIME-version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7E18) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7E18) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_pVnULcNGjAYIuDMhoTEJlw)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=message-id :from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:date:references:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=Lvd7SaOGJMo7lDYgA lZTz+EpvII=; b=P2VY+njmF0MBbVEReXU9JgRR3Vp1H5dDuMIVQcaBCn8dd7ivV VAuCBA+5M66moNAjH7F/H5iMNpmedSqDl4oeA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:mime-version :subject:date:references; bh=a45YQBlm4xfw3vI288z+i06cfI8Bc7zF471svmJDQvs=; b=ETnxMLaR1buTm5kOn+S6cbP62MrY1TK9TOAN3WEWpEKdqtl32bhnJQ6jBIcHBA1Afp MYBni3gW7THI43Z6cxFmHsu9j/84gBPEsgkdyQTnLe56xDCZvOvuT8QmaK3hiP5I1E9v DGpz2e84sqeGdFeAU3RyRFSpbXHa6opXKpVwM= X-Listbox-UUID: 902C1EB2-11C1-11DF-BA9E-DCDBD4DBEBE3 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <10b201caa5cc$28195260$784bf720$@frankston.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :x-mailer:mime-version:subject:date:references; b=Jj88h6RSkQexCq1h4Re0WEiWBf4tWqbUaMLbvBfyKnmLODFAonafewuH6UWbx6MNv3 ouBIN2iobvICq4fZntCx+QZen3MIYznIDJp9mC1YcDqU1hzmlYmfhsoH0hDg/QkdsmnB kIJxVsAsmvGRTPGNBwQLvV/B1+azNJO/zBP1Y= --Boundary_(ID_pVnULcNGjAYIuDMhoTEJlw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Begin forwarded message: > From: Bob Frankston > Date: February 4, 2010 1:59:13 PM EST > To: dave@farber.net, 'ip' > Subject: RE: [IP] Re: The balance of power in airport security = =20 > screening > > I also should mentioning that my mention of "temperature" was a = =20 > reference to the idea of boiling creatures by raising the =20 > temperature gradually so that they don't notice it. > > The challenge we face is with a myriad of assaults which battles do= =20 > we choose to fight and which do we choose not to. I do appreciate = =20 > people taking a stand against security theater but also understand = =20 > why we accept it. The key is to keep the pain level low enough that= =20 > it doesn't become a priority -- at least not to those who could = =20 > affect policy. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Frankston [mailto:bob2@bobf.frankston.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 10:54 > To: dave@farber.net; ip > Subject: RE: [IP] Re: The balance of power in airport security = =20 > screening > > > > I'm not defending "we adapt on move on" -- just observing. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: David Farber [mailto:dave@farber.net] > > Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 10:16 > > To: ip > > Subject: [IP] Re: The balance of power in airport security screenin= g > > > > Editors comment -- I really object to the just "we adapt and move = =20 > on". I would repeat the Germans priest comments but maybe Ben's is = =20 > more fitting. "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a = =20 > little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." djf > > > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > > From: "Bob Frankston" > > Date: February 4, 2010 11:32:16 AM EST > > To: , "'ip'" > > Subject: RE: [IP] The balance of power in airport security screenin= g > > > > Let=E2=80=99s get a reality check here. Sure there are many of thes= e excesse=20 > s and there are principles at stack but for the most part the proce= s=20 > s operates pretty smoothly, especially for frequent flyers who know= =20 > the routine. When an airport is shutdown it makes national news bec= a=20 > use it=E2=80=99s the exception. > > > > This is why there is so little pressure for change =E2=80=93 few pe= ople run =20 > into these problems. Admittedly easy for me to say =E2=80=93 people= who have=20 > chronic issues such as the wrong name or look might think very dif= f=20 > erently. > > > > I=E2=80=99m not going to judge whether that=E2=80=99s good or bad. = I=E2=80=99m just =20 > noting that we adapt and move on. Sure it was a tad easier before w= e=20 > had all these security checks. Remember they were introduced in th= e=20 > 60=E2=80=99s when hijacking flights to Cuba and insurance bombs we= re the ma=20 > in concern and the temperature has ratcheted up so TSA seems like b= u=20 > siness as usual. > > > > Of course I=E2=80=99m writing this in flight. Security did want to = run may b=20 > ackpack through an extra time because of the all the gear =E2=80= =93 all very=20 > friendly. > > > > From: Dave Farber [mailto:dave@farber.net] > > Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 06:31 > > To: ip > > Subject: [IP] The balance of power in airport security screening > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------- > > > ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_pVnULcNGjAYIuDMhoTEJlw) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE




Begin= forwarded message:

Fr= om: Bob Frankston <Bob19-0501@bobf.frankston.com>
Date: February = 4, 2010 1:59:13 PM EST
To: dave@farber.net, 'ip' <ip@v2.listbox.com>
Subject: RE: [IP] Re:  = The balance of power in airport security screening

<= /blockquote>

I also should mentioning that my mention of "temperature" was a reference to the idea of boiling creatures by raising the temperature= gradually so that they don't notice it.

The challenge we face is with a myriad of assaults which battles do we ch= oose to fight and which do we choose not to. I do appreciate people taking a = stand against security theater but also understand why we accept it. The ke= y is to keep the pain level low enough that it doesn't become a priority -- a= t least not to those who could affect policy.

 

 

-----Original Message-----
=46rom: Bob Frankston [mailto:bob2@bobf.frankston.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 10:54
To: dave@farber.net; ip
Subject: RE: [IP] Re: The balance of power in airport security screen= ing

 

I'm not defending "we adapt on move on" -- = just observing.

 

-----Original Message-----

From: David Farber [mailto:dave@farber.net]=

Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 10:16

To: ip

Subject: [IP] Re: The balance of power in a= irport security screening

 

Editors comment -- I really object to the j= ust "we adapt and move on". I would repeat the Germans priest comments but ma= ybe Ben's is more fitting.  "They who can give up essential liberty = to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.= " djf

 

 

Begin forwarded message:

 

From: "Bob Frankston" <bob2@bobf.frankston.co= m>

Date: February 4, 2010 11:32:16 AM EST=

To: <= dave@farber.net>, "'ip'" <ip@v2.listbox.com>

Subject: RE: [IP] The balance of power in a= irport security screening

 

Let=E2=80=99s get a reality check here. Sur= e there are many of these excesses and there are principles at stack but for the most = part the process operates pretty smoothly, especially for frequent flyers who = know the routine. When an airport is shutdown it makes national news because i= t=E2=80=99s the exception.

 

This is why there is so little pressure for= change =E2=80=93 few people run into these problems. Admittedly easy for me = to say =E2=80=93 people who have chronic issues such as the wrong name or lo= ok might think very differently.

 

I=E2=80=99m not going to judge whether that= =E2=80=99s good or bad. I=E2=80=99m just noting that we adapt and move on. Sure it was a= tad easier before we had all these security checks. Remember they were introduce= d in the 60=E2=80=99s when hijacking flights to Cuba and insurance bombs were = the main concern and the temperature has ratcheted up so TSA seems like busine= ss as usual.

 

Of course I=E2=80=99m writing this in fligh= t. Security did want to run may backpack through an extra time because of the all the= gear =E2=80=93 all very friendly.

 

From: Dave Farber [mailto:dave@farber.net] =

Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 06:31

To: ip

Subject: [IP] The balance of power in airpo= rt security screening

 

 

 

-------------------------------------------=

Archives:

RSS Feed:

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--Boundary_(ID_pVnULcNGjAYIuDMhoTEJlw)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Feb 5 08:09:56 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXD00701DW79Y@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 05 Feb 2010 08:09:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXD00701DW39S@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 05 Feb 2010 08:09:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXC008014GTZU@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 15:48:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KXC0057Q4GTX4@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 15:48:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5436ABDFCC for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 15:47:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51C20BEC24 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 15:47:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AF08B160E for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 15:46:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-fx0-f224.google.com (mail-fx0-f224.google.com [209.85.220.224]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CC6EB160D for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 15:46:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by fxm24 with SMTP id 24so1280653fxm.3 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 12:46:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.223.3.67 with SMTP id 3mr1857542fam.25.1265316400027; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 12:46:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.0.1.4? (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 22sm1018695fkq.24.2010.02.04.12.46.38 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 04 Feb 2010 12:46:39 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 15:45:40 -0500 From: Dave Farber Subject: [IP] re A Family's Horror -- and the Role of Google Images To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7E18) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7E18) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_I7mVXlmVnwYYaw/RTgfvLQ)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:mime-version :subject:date:references; bh=tX7XokZ3zxgG/ExK7taoSOQjKJdaAmvv0p5aYEfwphs=; b=jw+tSKfgSveI9tkWnM/H7aL8eoM8aLs5DuKZ4y4mrJ9ZWb+RvTumqeLK0TwjN1Ai6/ NpRlU7ZF0e7Ys4fD9akUZdKRem2iF+EBcwmPF7lXCBFKgoYDYi3HuC1JVrFC2rsuQnYI r8fCOfPacC72jEjcZzW///P8leHi5PoiCKDvA= X-Listbox-UUID: 670CE32E-11CE-11DF-847F-C0829135BF21 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <518AD8AC-4D99-4F99-8751-6B6C24A056BF@netgate.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :x-mailer:mime-version:subject:date:references; b=Wyx5qv8Ul/k5ETLbeSdpwesNY+z1Pt9/CpHfiHrgntHF8rHnN4r4tu9TelZl52ZK5n NPa9ToJDnxQYUOUczb5KuoBZwvX8G+xz5Tc9BXgw8hBrcwztFX8HZM/RXBZdSHRo4K3d woDeUaKT17wTLvoJCtIhYMctwY6yYoaaNuG68= --Boundary_(ID_I7mVXlmVnwYYaw/RTgfvLQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Begin forwarded message: > From: Jim Thompson > Date: February 4, 2010 3:40:40 PM EST > To: dave@farber.net > Cc: Lauren Weinstein > Subject: Re: [IP] A Family's Horror -- and the Role of Google Images > > > Lets be clear about a couple of things. > > 1) The driver was a) an adult and b) clearly responsible for the > accident > > The driver took the keys to her father's Porsche without permission. > > CHP says she was driving the Porsche at over 100 mph, when she > attempted to pass (on the left) a Honda Civic traveling about 70 mph > in the far left lane, when the she clipped the Honda and lost control. > > The Porsche crossed the center median, traveled across opposing > lanes and the on-ramp, before colliding into a toll booth building. > > The Honda hit the center median. The driver of the Honda was hurt, > but lived. It was clearly *not* a "single-vehicle" accident, as > you assert. > > 2) I'd never heard of this until your post on IP. (I'm left to > wonder how many other readers are in the same position.) > > 3) I didn't need a name to find this (yes, I used Google). I > didn't need to use Google Images, only 'web search'. Your proposed > restrictions are both vapid and clueless. > > Jim > > > ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_I7mVXlmVnwYYaw/RTgfvLQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE




Begin= forwarded message:

Fr= om: Jim Thompson <jim@netga= te.com>
Date: February 4, 2010 3:40:40 PM EST
= To: dave@farber.net
Cc: Lauren Weinstein <<= a href=3D"mailto:lauren@vortex.com">lauren@vortex.com>
S= ubject: Re: [IP] A Family's Horror -- and the Role of Google I= mages


Lets be clear about a couple of thing= s.

1) The driver was a) an adult and= b) clearly responsible for the accident

<= span>The driver took the keys to her father's Porsche without permiss= ion.

CHP says she was driving the Po= rsche at over 100 mph, when she attempted to pass (on the left) a Hon= da Civic traveling about 70 mph in the far left lane, when the she cl= ipped the Honda and lost control.

Th= e Porsche crossed the center median, traveled across opposing lanes a= nd the on-ramp, before colliding into a toll booth building.
The Honda hit the center median.  The d= river of the Honda was hurt, but lived.   It was clearly *n= ot* a "single-vehicle" accident, as you assert.

2) I'd never heard of this until your post on IP.  &= nbsp;(I'm left to wonder how many other readers are in the same posit= ion.)

3) I didn't need a name to fin= d this (yes, I used Google).   I didn't need to use Google = Images, only 'web search'.  Your proposed restrictions are both = vapid and clueless.

Jim



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--Boundary_(ID_I7mVXlmVnwYYaw/RTgfvLQ)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Feb 5 08:09:58 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXD00701DW79Y@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 05 Feb 2010 08:09:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXD00701DW39S@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 05 Feb 2010 08:09:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXC00G015J75C@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 16:11:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KXC005IZ5J7NR@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 16:11:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.38]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52162BE2C7 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 16:10:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E59FBE06E for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 16:10:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EA8FB1718 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 16:09:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-bw0-f209.google.com (mail-bw0-f209.google.com [209.85.218.209]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89FB2B1717 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 16:09:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by bwz1 with SMTP id 1so2761894bwz.32 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:09:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.102.210.16 with SMTP id i16mr1061091mug.103.1265317757710; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:09:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.0.1.4? (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 23sm3235999mum.3.2010.02.04.13.09.16 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 04 Feb 2010 13:09:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 16:08:18 -0500 From: Dave Farber Subject: [IP] re A Family's Horror -- and the Role of Google Images To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7E18) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7E18) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_AG6zZ+eCySpSKaBvFHNjMA)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:mime-version :subject:date:references; bh=yH/CneQqvtPSiQbMKUHfiPm9ViMuCaPTRbpsrbVhCSI=; b=KgGUPPbEg+7I8SoDVZIm9Q0i1LLXYAgO4/OqlJMToVk4QQJp+dobA6EVK75fXLh6QB 3aLBj+y8pK+CaSGHpXZR1M8qGxrBiWCvcG8Kh7oKM9vNryGdpQ2udOhyLZZxmYyJE0sK 5rDb25x8T1rP1VgbllegwzC6qPKmijfzSuu/w= X-Listbox-UUID: 90B49D4A-11D1-11DF-90FE-D53703B4CF99 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <20100204205558.GA14921@vortex.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :x-mailer:mime-version:subject:date:references; b=WnoFIN5hkk6XFemSZYZ9WNcllwr4Kyfa3492FEglPU7zC7WxMWYyYEZ/jz+p/i5sJY ye3bpnfxHOf8SIt1Dvp5OD8Ync2QxAQDgpRJP9CLsS9T0naBrH8+GXKnZGh/aBVFbc0b 4fekg/N0qWuRfNz+aq7uD8Qxlp8QK/XEli94w= --Boundary_(ID_AG6zZ+eCySpSKaBvFHNjMA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Begin forwarded message: > From: Lauren Weinstein > Date: February 4, 2010 3:55:58 PM EST > To: Jim Thompson > Cc: dave@farber.net > Subject: Re: [IP] A Family's Horror -- and the Role of Google Images > > > Jim, > > Inappropriate release, exploitation, and misclassification of the > photos, and resulting continuing damage to innocent parties, are > utterly orthogonal to questions of responsibility for the accident > itself. > >> Your proposed restrictions are both vapid and clueless. > > Excuse me, Jim? What "restrictions" did I propose? I explicitly said > that there should be no bans or censorship of such images from the > Net. > > I did suggest that if a search engine is going to offer a "SafeSearch" > xfunction, such images should be more appropriately included in the > analysis. > > Perhaps you'd find Brock Meeks' take on this of interest. He's about > as anti-censorship as anyone you'll find: > > http://gutcheckamerica.com/?p=139 > > --Lauren-- > ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_AG6zZ+eCySpSKaBvFHNjMA) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE




Begin= forwarded message:

Fr= om: Lauren Weinstein <lau= ren@vortex.com>
Date: February 4, 2010 3:55:58 PM ES= T
To: Jim Thompson <j= im@netgate.com>
Cc: dave@farber.net
S= ubject: Re: [IP] A Family's Horror -- and the Role of Google I= mages


Jim,

Inappropriate release, exploitation, and misclassification of the
photos, and resulting continuing damage to innocent par= ties, are
utterly orthogonal to questions of responsi= bility for the accident
itself.

Your proposed restrictions are = both vapid and clueless.

Excuse me, Jim?  What "restrictions" did I propose?  I ex= plicitly said
that there should be no bans or censors= hip of such images from the Net.

I d= id suggest that if a search engine is going to offer a "SafeSearch"
xfunction, such images should be more appropriately in= cluded in the analysis.

Perhaps you'= d find Brock Meeks' take on this of interest.  He's about=
as anti-censorship as anyone you'll find:
<= /span>
http:= //gutcheckamerica.com/?p=3D139

-= -Lauren--

--Boundary_(ID_AG6zZ+eCySpSKaBvFHNjMA)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Feb 5 08:10:00 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXD00701DW79Y@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 05 Feb 2010 08:09:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXD00701DW39S@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 05 Feb 2010 08:09:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXC00L018AQP2@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 17:11:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.83]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KXC00HLG8APAQ@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 17:11:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8D14BC6FD for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 17:10:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.87]) by b-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5BFABC6FC for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 17:10:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA153BDD38 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 17:10:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57CA4B8973 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 17:07:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-fx0-f224.google.com (mail-fx0-f224.google.com [209.85.220.224]) by a-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEF2CB8972 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 17:07:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by fxm24 with SMTP id 24so1369829fxm.3 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 14:07:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.103.85.4 with SMTP id n4mr1135617mul.128.1265321243796; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 14:07:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.0.1.4? (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id i7sm3533042mue.46.2010.02.04.14.07.21 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 04 Feb 2010 14:07:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 17:06:22 -0500 From: Dave Farber Subject: [IP] re A Family's Horror -- and the Role of Google Images To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <9878C4DD-1F71-487A-8E75-5BA2B4BD3B11@me.com> MIME-version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7E18) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7E18) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_Evqsznq5Sd6pP0LFNitOVg)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=message-id :from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:date:references:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=IFm0tdy+e7cJBOoMR evqYkT0IIQ=; b=c4CwQwvjNVRrKvQk+Sb9Bug2Cp16uiYsdSO0Zw67wxntSPAjo wzEOKWE8dr27XyL4wZ5r0JCNKbCerJAo/KneA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:mime-version :subject:date:references; bh=mLeTMbRiMYkonfVhLQMzqqXaNDuNN8oM/qDh/SKePQ4=; b=NGy34BbvJ7eS7RJ0ud65DowSrChW4oWANYT4wNrFYVx/otruZIAGyR8djbj1Z5BiiN 2hcxpRkOYTp43NUdawKw8MALrtS6fGh7qcREhuedEG9GUIju37zIo+1SGvrvIugqpWgJ eMYmEkmBaKUth8+HcpYRCMBj+1mHLxrHdVWF4= X-Listbox-UUID: AD7E7DE4-11D9-11DF-A34E-A5E5DE30FDFE X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <14766-1265319107-80383@sneakemail.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :x-mailer:mime-version:subject:date:references; b=xbhnGK43Aw9dPXugDb73e2SEq1ESgp1RN6JNlAoP/+ZBPLx3IZVgmAYwjJF8xXs8co v7WVRvvPjpYphofzJd2JNpxaxi3tUiguump+CpDy5zAfk5LfuZt7QSSugX0C/81XOJDq bdOTzyOPqUNzG+621huHgAvA+4zbnZbabIOYg= --Boundary_(ID_Evqsznq5Sd6pP0LFNitOVg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Begin forwarded message: > From: "Mike Tetreault, CISSP, CSSLP" > Date: February 4, 2010 4:31:46 PM EST > To: dave@farber.net > Subject: Re: [IP] re A Family's Horror -- and the Role of Google > Images > > Honestly, I'm confused by Lauren's comments. People have things they > consider "bad stuff". Different people have different things they > consider "bad stuff". If you want a company to decide what should be > "bad stuff", use a filtering proxy with automatically updated > blacklists. You are proposing that a company make a moral choice > (ie, what's "good stuff", "okay stuff", and "bad stuff"), and > further, to be prepared with guidelines for making further moral > choices in the future. > > Can we deploy measures? Yes. They're called guidelines, policies, > and procedures. The pictures should never have been disseminated by > those authorized to create and possess them. Can we hold someone > accountable? Yes. This happens through the courts, which is what the > accident victim's family is doing. If an individual is acting on > behalf of an organization, you hold both the individuals and the > organization liable. Personally, I think CHP dropped the ball by not > summarily dismissing the responsible parties, and deserves and > sanctions the courts choose if only because of that. I can think of > few more egregious breaches of the public trust thank sending out > these images. > > Now, actually removing this content is where the challenge lies. The > easiest way would be to use the DMCA to go after individuals that > post the images. Transfer copyright to the family (or an entity > controlled by them) and let them start sending out the take down > notices. > > Mike ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_Evqsznq5Sd6pP0LFNitOVg) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE




Begin= forwarded message:

Fr= om: "Mike Tetreault, CISSP, CSSLP" <z0t5jtc02@sneakemail.com>
Date: Fe= bruary 4, 2010 4:31:46 PM EST
To: dave@farber.net<= br>Subject: Re: [IP] re A Family's Horror -- and the Role o= f Google Images

Honestly, I'm confused by Lauren's comments. Peopl= e have things they consider "bad stuff". Different people have differ= ent things they consider "bad stuff". If you want a company to decide= what should be "bad stuff", use a filtering proxy with automatically= updated blacklists. You are proposing that a company make a moral ch= oice (ie, what's "good stuff", "okay stuff", and "bad stuff"), and fu= rther, to be prepared with guidelines for making further moral choice= s in the future.

Can we deploy measures? Yes. They're called guidelines, policies,= and procedures. The pictures should never have been disseminated by = those authorized to create and possess them. Can we hold someone acco= untable? Yes. This happens through the courts, which is what the acci= dent victim's family is doing. If an individual is acting on behalf o= f an organization, you hold both the individuals and the organization= liable. Personally, I think CHP dropped the ball by not summarily di= smissing the responsible parties, and deserves and sanctions the cour= ts choose if only because of that. I can think of few more egregious = breaches of the public trust thank sending out these images.

Now, actually removing this content is where the challenge lies. = The easiest way would be to use the DMCA to go after individuals that= post the images. Transfer copyright to the family (or an entity cont= rolled by them) and let them start sending out the take down notices.=

Mike
--Boundary_(ID_Evqsznq5Sd6pP0LFNitOVg)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Feb 5 08:10:02 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXD00701DW79Y@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 05 Feb 2010 08:09:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXD00701DW39S@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 05 Feb 2010 08:09:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXC00201BMLCH@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 18:23:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.82]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KXC0013QBMK87@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 18:23:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0137EBD496 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 18:22:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com [64.74.157.86]) by a-lb-ob-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2A48BD495 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 18:22:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E83A9BB096 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 18:22:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3246DAE27C for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 18:19:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-qy0-f180.google.com (mail-qy0-f180.google.com [209.85.221.180]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05679AE27B for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 18:19:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by qyk10 with SMTP id 10so136040qyk.4 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 15:19:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.224.45.12 with SMTP id c12mr553573qaf.335.1265325554837; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 15:19:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.0.1.4? (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 22sm440761qyk.6.2010.02.04.15.19.12 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 04 Feb 2010 15:19:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 18:18:13 -0500 From: Dave Farber Subject: [IP] re A Family's Horror -- and the Role of Google Images To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7E18) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7E18) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_KPl7XEexS6TUX5WskPMCFw)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=listbox.com; h=message-id :from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:date:references:reply-to:list-id:list-help :list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe; s=launch; bh=mo5HT23Qp2HIECSxS NZqHHKI9H4=; b=cfX740z/EHidxVTDgxG9UT+mArH1s27e6hxO2UbJsPAIO+8tA pQVeKEkRAI1FWsH67uAKNLxjXFeIfig1S6QmQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:mime-version :subject:date:references; bh=W3QY/WhQYO55ELIOnyp+RWY1fYKfjtfesm939mcIFEI=; b=FBvSnDJvj33K9T/qludkmRx13fcSULgc5T/UWWer+cOzUNCK4lhBhQsqnL+mgnqzZO ErEvXNjz0mHkakCRFnbvwUqOlRECNdCOVyv3Wjjgy+b7emJSiSybp9JGhdS5MG55HhSP iAzGJCqqfkbtvNqRyEeTC7uYOeB6xshxi4www= X-Listbox-UUID: B8CB1838-11E3-11DF-B806-1AA0A52306B0 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <20100204231442.GA19855@vortex.com> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :x-mailer:mime-version:subject:date:references; b=Jz2/WPoIOcC9J72vVtDPlWrrVWKz/lAjSQwUnbwM1LK8Dnb5UEkK6GsLHIjA409b6a Er56fTfVd5bcGyco4nATcQL+sSLuwWntowadQnYJJUDiMbDHqvL8H69zkWpSlS7WKUoz Amzp4HBJaqKV57OnrL6+3xsoEKJv32jv18xvU= --Boundary_(ID_KPl7XEexS6TUX5WskPMCFw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Begin forwarded message: > From: Lauren Weinstein > Date: February 4, 2010 6:14:42 PM EST > To: Dave Farber > Subject: Re: [IP] re A Family's Horror -- and the Role of Google > Images > > > Dave, > > This is very interesting. > > I continue to be mystified by the apparent inability of some readers > to get their heads around the concept I'm trying to explain. Perhaps > it's a failing in my abilities at exposition, or maybe it's just that > preconceived notions in this area are so strong that they override > the written word. > > Nowhere in ( http://lauren.vortex.com/archive/000677.html ) or the > links referenced therein where I discuss concepts for search engine > dispute resolutions have I called for bans, censorship, DMCA > take-downs, or anything of the sort. > > To the contrary, I oppose censorship, and I have long maintained that > the reality of the Internet assures that it is very nearly impossible > to effectively censor content once it has been publicly posted > (whether oppressive governments can employ sufficiently draconian > techniques to force populations into cowered compliance is a related > but different issue). > > Search engines -- Google in particular of course -- have enormous > power to determine what information actually is seen and in what > contexts, since they tend to be the de facto portal for so many > people's discovery of Internet sites and data. (In fact, have you > ever seen the interesting phenomenon of people who even enter explicit > site domain names into a Google search field rather than entering them > directly into browser Location bars? Fascinating.) > > Search engine algorithms and classification routines are complex and > generally proprietary. Google uses (so I've heard, anyway) something > on the order of 200 different inputs to help determine search > rankings. Google is free -- as they should be -- to arbitrarily > change and tune those parameters, and those changes will represent > Google's views of the relative importance of the different inputs in > the overall ranking decisions. > > Fundamentally, my argument is that there are additional inputs that > arguably are worthy of consideration in this process. Does a stance > against censorship require that innumerable, easily identifiable > photos of an 18-year-old girl's headless corpse be quickly displayed > even when search engine results settings are explicitly set to their > strictest mode? > > Similarly, does the ability of false and slanderous materials to rise > to the top of search engine results mean that it's impossible to > devise a system where aggrieved parties could have some similarly > ranked and visible forum to at least contest the information on such > sites? These are the sorts of issues I've discussed in considerable > depth in the past, so I won't detail them all again now. > > Except to say this: > > The usual retorts (not by Google itself, but by some outside > observers) to such suggestions include the idea that ethical > considerations have no role in search results. Yet Google itself has > implicitly acknowledged the role of ethics in results, as in their > special > handling of searches for the word "jew": > > http://lauren.vortex.com/archive/000255.html > > Google makes other judgments as well, including (quite appropriately) > blacklisting sites that it believes are contaminated with malware. > > My assertion is simply that there are a range of other "ethical" > factors that similarly would be appropriate for consideration in > ranking and (for example) SafeSearch classification decisions. > > Even if this view is accepted as having some merit, the question of > scale comes up immediately. Would creating a system for dispute > resolutions or other annotation of results in the manners I've > described be practical given the scope of the search universe? > > Again, I won't repeat my previous writings on this, but I believe this > to be a problem completely capable of being solved -- if the will and > resources are put forth to do so. > > One final point. It is unwise to assume that the status quo is > stable, even if ethical considerations are set aside. In fact, we > have more evidence every day that governments are prepared to take > often drastic and overbearing steps to try control the information > flow into their countries -- this group even includes some traditional > democracies of long standing. > > My view is that calls for censorship and information bans, which again > I deplore, are best fought back by voluntary efforts -- not to > restrict or block information -- but rather to help make sure that > information is organized in ways that include the kind of ethical > components that I've described above. > > Virtually by definition today, the bulk of that responsibility falls > on > search engines in general, and on Google in particular. > > And make no mistake about it, I'm convinced that Google can do a > fantastic job of solving these problems, if they choose to do so. > > --Lauren-- > Lauren Weinstein > lauren@vortex.com > Tel: +1 (818) 225-2800 > http://www.pfir.org/lauren > Co-Founder, PFIR > - People For Internet Responsibility - http://www.pfir.org > Co-Founder, NNSquad > - Network Neutrality Squad - http://www.nnsquad.org > Founder, GCTIP - Global Coalition > for Transparent Internet Performance - http://www.gctip.org > Founder, PRIVACY Forum - http://www.vortex.com > Member, ACM Committee on Computers and Public Policy > Lauren's Blog: http://lauren.vortex.com > Twitter: https://twitter.com/laurenweinstein > > > - - - > > On 02/04 17:06, Dave Farber wrote: >> >> >> Begin forwarded message: >> >>> From: "Mike Tetreault, CISSP, CSSLP" >>> Date: February 4, 2010 4:31:46 PM EST >>> To: dave@farber.net >>> Subject: Re: [IP] re A Family's Horror -- and the Role of Google >>> Images >>> >> >>> Honestly, I'm confused by Lauren's comments. People have things they >>> consider "bad stuff". Different people have different things they >>> consider "bad stuff". If you want a company to decide what should be >>> "bad stuff", use a filtering proxy with automatically updated >>> blacklists. You are proposing that a company make a moral choice >>> (ie, >>> what's "good stuff", "okay stuff", and "bad stuff"), and further, >>> to be >>> prepared with guidelines for making further moral choices in the >>> future. >>> >>> Can we deploy measures? Yes. They're called guidelines, policies, >>> and >>> procedures. The pictures should never have been disseminated by >>> those >>> authorized to create and possess them. Can we hold someone >>> accountable? Yes. This happens through the courts, which is what the >>> accident victim's family is doing. If an individual is acting on >>> behalf of an organization, you hold both the individuals and the >>> organization liable. Personally, I think CHP dropped the ball by not >>> summarily dismissing the responsible parties, and deserves and >>> sanctions the courts choose if only because of that. I can think of >>> few more egregious breaches of the public trust thank sending out >>> these images. >>> >>> Now, actually removing this content is where the challenge lies. The >>> easiest way would be to use the DMCA to go after individuals that >>> post >>> the images. Transfer copyright to the family (or an entity >>> controlled >>> by them) and let them start sending out the take down notices. >>> >>> Mike >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_KPl7XEexS6TUX5WskPMCFw) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE




Begin= forwarded message:

Fr= om: Lauren Weinstein <lau= ren@vortex.com>
Date: February 4, 2010 6:14:42 PM ES= T
To: Dave Farber <da= ve@farber.net>
Subject: Re: [IP] re A Family's Ho= rror -- and the Role of Google Images

<= div>

Dave,=

This is very interesting.
I continue to be mystified by the apparent in= ability of some readers
to get their heads around the= concept I'm trying to explain.  Perhaps
it's a = failing in my abilities at exposition, or maybe it's just that=
preconceived notions in this area are so strong that they o= verride
the written word.

= Nowhere in ( http://lauren.vortex.com/archive/000677.html ) or the
links referenced therein where I discuss concepts for sea= rch engine
dispute resolutions have I called for bans= , censorship, DMCA
take-downs, or anything of the sor= t.

To the contrary, I oppose censors= hip, and I have long maintained that
the reality of t= he Internet assures that it is very nearly impossible
to effectively censor content once it has been publicly posted
(whether oppressive governments can employ sufficiently dr= aconian
techniques to force populations into cowered = compliance is a related
but different issue).<= br>
Search engines -- Google in particular of c= ourse -- have enormous
power to determine what inform= ation actually is seen and in what
contexts, since th= ey tend to be the de facto portal for so many
people'= s discovery of Internet sites and data.  (In fact, have you
ever seen the interesting phenomenon of people who even e= nter explicit
site domain names into a Google search = field rather than entering them
directly into browser= Location bars?  Fascinating.)

= Search engine algorithms and classification routines are complex and<= /span>
generally proprietary.  Google uses (so I've hea= rd, anyway) something
on the order of 200 different i= nputs to help determine search
rankings.  Google= is free -- as they should be -- to arbitrarily
chang= e and tune those parameters, and those changes will represent<= br>Google's views of the relative importance of the different i= nputs in
the overall ranking decisions.

Fundamentally, my argument is that there are addi= tional inputs that
arguably are worthy of considerati= on in this process.  Does a stance
against censo= rship require that innumerable, easily identifiable
p= hotos of an 18-year-old girl's headless corpse be quickly displayed
even when search engine results settings are explicitl= y set to their
strictest mode?

Similarly, does the ability of false and slanderous materi= als to rise
to the top of search engine results mean = that it's impossible to
devise a system where aggriev= ed parties could have some similarly
ranked and visib= le forum to at least contest the information on such
= sites?  These are the sorts of issues I've discussed in consider= able
depth in the past, so I won't detail them all ag= ain now.

Except to say this:<= br>
The usual retorts (not by Google itself, bu= t by some outside
observers) to such suggestions incl= ude the idea that ethical
considerations have no role= in search results.  Yet Google itself has
impli= citly acknowledged the role of ethics in results, as in their special=
handling of searches for the word "jew":
<= span>
http://lauren.vortex.com/archive/000255.html
=
Google makes other judgments as well, includin= g (quite appropriately)
blacklisting sites that it be= lieves are contaminated with malware.

My assertion is simply that there are a range of other "ethical"
factors that similarly would be appropriate for conside= ration in
ranking and (for example) SafeSearch classi= fication decisions.

Even if this vie= w is accepted as having some merit, the question of
s= cale comes up immediately.  Would creating a system for dispute<= /span>
resolutions or other annotation of results in the man= ners I've
described be practical given the scope of t= he search universe?

Again, I won't r= epeat my previous writings on this, but I believe this
to be a problem completely capable of being solved -- if the will a= nd
resources are put forth to do so.
=
One final point.  It is unwise to assume that t= he status quo is
stable, even if ethical consideratio= ns are set aside.  In fact, we
have more evidenc= e every day that governments are prepared to take
oft= en drastic and overbearing steps to try control the information
flow into their countries -- this group even includes some= traditional
democracies of long standing.
=
My view is that calls for censorship and infor= mation bans, which again
I deplore, are best fought b= ack by voluntary efforts -- not to
restrict or block = information -- but rather to help make sure that
info= rmation is organized in ways that include the kind of ethical<= br>components that I've described above.

Virtually by definition today, the bulk of that responsibi= lity falls on
search engines in general, and on Googl= e in particular.

And make no mistake= about it, I'm convinced that Google can do a
fantast= ic job of solving these problems, if they choose to do so.
=
--Lauren--
Lauren Weinstein
lauren@vortex.com<= /a>
Tel: +1 (818) 225-2800
http://www.pfir.org/lauren=
Co-Founder, PFIR
  - People For = Internet Responsibility - http://www.pfir.org
= Co-Founder, NNSquad
  - Network Neutrality= Squad - http://www.nnsquad.org
Founder, GCT= IP - Global Coalition
  for Transparent I= nternet Performance - http://www.gctip.org
Found= er, PRIVACY Forum - http://www.vortex.com
Memb= er, ACM Committee on Computers and Public Policy
Laur= en's Blog: http://lauren.vortex.com
Twit= ter: https://twitter.com/laurenweinstein


- - -

On 02/04 17:06, Dave Farber wrote:=


Begin forwarded message:

From: "Mike Tetreault, CISSP, CSSLP= " <z0t5jtc02@sneakemai= l.com>
Date: February 4, 2010 4:31= :46 PM EST
To: dave@farber.net
Subject: Re: [IP] re A Family's Horror -- and th= e Role of Google  
Images


Honestly, I'm confused by Lauren's comme= nts. People have things they  
consider= "bad stuff". Different people have different things they  
consider "bad stuff". If you want a company to d= ecide what should be  
"bad stuff", use= a filtering proxy with automatically updated  
blacklists. You are proposing that a company make a moral ch= oice (ie,
what's "good stuff", "okay stuff"= , and "bad stuff"), and further, to be
prep= ared with guidelines for making further moral choices in the <= br>
future.

Can we deploy measures? Yes. They're called guidelines, polic= ies, and
procedures. The pictures should ne= ver have been disseminated by those
authori= zed to create and possess them. Can we hold someone  
=
accountable? Yes. This happens through the courts, wh= ich is what the  
accident victim's fam= ily is doing. If an individual is acting on  
behalf of an organization, you hold both the individuals and t= he  
organization liable. Personally, I= think CHP dropped the ball by not  
su= mmarily dismissing the responsible parties, and deserves and  
sanctions the courts choose if only because o= f that. I can think of  
few more egreg= ious breaches of the public trust thank sending out  
=
these images.

Now, actually removing this content is where the chal= lenge lies. The  
easiest way would be = to use the DMCA to go after individuals that post
the images. Transfer copyright to the family (or an entity con= trolled
by them) and let them start sending= out the take down notices.

Mike


-----------------------= --------------------
RSS Feed:
http://www.listbox.com

--Boundary_(ID_KPl7XEexS6TUX5WskPMCFw)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Feb 5 08:10:04 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXD00701DW79Y@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 05 Feb 2010 08:09:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXD00701DW39S@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 05 Feb 2010 08:09:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXC00G01JKKAP@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 21:14:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KXC00CC6JKKCX@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 21:14:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.38]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A16FFBF45A for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 21:14:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F14EBE051 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 21:14:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C0EBB86B4 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 21:13:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP03.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.198]) by a-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AD47B86B3 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 21:13:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.9] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp03.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o152Cwaa029010 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 21:12:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 21:12:58 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] Microsoft to Offer U.S. Scientists Free Cloud Computing - NYTimes.com To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_WqjQGUEbSbu9kHLWpFD1vg)" X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.198 X-Listbox-UUID: FD4358DC-11FB-11DF-9A77-F11903578682 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 --Boundary_(ID_WqjQGUEbSbu9kHLWpFD1vg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/05/science/05cloud.html?hpw ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_WqjQGUEbSbu9kHLWpFD1vg) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/05/science/05cloud.html?hpw

--Boundary_(ID_WqjQGUEbSbu9kHLWpFD1vg)--   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Fri Feb 5 08:10:05 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXD00701DW79Y@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 05 Feb 2010 08:09:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXD00701DW39S@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Fri, 05 Feb 2010 08:09:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXC00P01NDJ4U@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 22:36:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.5]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KXC00JHMNDJCM@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 22:36:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.38]) by b-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 223EBBF2A8 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 22:36:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20D41BE8B4 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 22:36:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-www-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-www-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.83]) by a-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47876AEBD6 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 22:35:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-lb-www-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A27EBD67B for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 22:35:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA93DB1E98 for 04 Feb 2010 21:22:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (SMTP01.SRV.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.217.196]) by b-lb-mx-sd.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7527B1E97 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 21:22:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.9] (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.srv.cs.cmu.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id o152MXLE001106 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 21:22:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 21:22:32 -0500 From: David Farber Subject: [IP] =?windows-1252?Q? ?= =?windows-1252?Q?-_A_fight_over_freedom_at_Apple=92s_core?= To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <0335D117-B65D-4BD5-B932-A23FA3E4EF4E@farber.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Reinject: approved by webmoderator X-Scanned-By: mimedefang-cmuscs on 128.2.217.196 X-Listbox-UUID: 792D625C-1207-11DF-BEBF-16A3A52306B0 X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 Lines: 34 List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/fcabc720-10fb-11df-9a9e-00144feab49a.html?n= click_check=3D1 A fight over freedom at Apple=92s core By Jonathan Zittrain Published: February 3 2010 20:40 | Last updated: February 3 2010 20:4= 0 In 1977, a 21-year-old Steve Jobs unveiled something the world had ne= ver seen before: a ready-to-program personal computer. After powering= the machine up, proud Apple II owners were confronted with a cryptic= blinking cursor, awaiting instructions. The Apple II was a clean slate, a device built =96 boldly =96 with no= specific tasks in mind. Yet, despite the cursor, you did not have to= know how to write programs. Instead, with a few keystrokes you could= run software acquired from anyone, anywhere. The Apple II was genera= tive. After the launch, Apple had no clue what would happen next, whi= ch meant that what happened was not limited by Mr Jobs=92 hunches. Wi= thin two years, Dan Bricklin and Bob Frankston had released VisiCalc,= the first digital spreadsheet, which ran on the Apple II. Suddenly b= usinesses around the world craved machines previously marketed only t= o hobbyists. Apple IIs flew off the shelves. The company had to condu= ct research to figure out why. Thirty years later Apple gave us the iPhone. It was easy to use, eleg= ant and cool =96 and had lots of applications right out of the box. B= ut the company quietly dropped a fundamental feature, one signalled b= y the dropping of =93Computer=94 from Apple Computer=92s name: the iP= hone could not be programmed by outsiders. =93We define everything th= at is on the phone,=94 said Mr Jobs. =93You don=92t want your phone t= o be like a PC. The last thing you want is to have loaded three apps = on your phone and then you go to make a call and it doesn=92t work an= y more.=94 snip -------------------------------------------   From interesting-people-errors+interesting-people-2179+40archive+2Ewww+2Einteresting-people+2Eorg@www.interesting-people.org Sat Feb 6 14:48:32 2010 Return-Path: Received: from DD-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXF00A01R0MPS@elistx.com> for interesting-people-2179@archive.www.interesting-people.org; Sat, 06 Feb 2010 14:48:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from D-IPEOPLE.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXF00A01R0IOP@elistx.com> for interesting-people@direct.www.interesting-people.org (ORCPT interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org); Sat, 06 Feb 2010 14:48:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.elistx.com by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) id <0KXD00E01H7VHM@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 05 Feb 2010 09:21:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.3]) by elistx.com (PMDF V6.3-2x2 #31779) with ESMTP id <0KXD00E0TH7VCV@elistx.com> for interesting-people@www.interesting-people.org; Fri, 05 Feb 2010 09:21:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com [208.72.237.56]) by a-lb-ob-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CCEABEDB8 for ; Fri, 05 Feb 2010 09:20:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c-lb-ex-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A8E6BF79F for ; Fri, 05 Feb 2010 09:20:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27667B1F12 for ; Fri, 05 Feb 2010 09:19:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com (qw-out-2122.google.com [74.125.92.25]) by b-lb-mx-quonix.listbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE305B1F11 for ; Fri, 05 Feb 2010 09:19:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 8so293894qwh.27 for ; Fri, 05 Feb 2010 06:19:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.229.131.102 with SMTP id w38mr1427923qcs.35.1265379579388; Fri, 05 Feb 2010 06:19:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.0.1.4? (c-67-165-107-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [67.165.107.113]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 21sm934128qyk.12.2010.02.05.06.19.37 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 05 Feb 2010 06:19:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 09:18:40 -0500 From: Dave Farber Subject: [IP] British Lord says record companies are "blackmailing" accused file traders To: ip Errors-to: Reply-to: dave@farber.net Message-id: <169B040C-3787-4131-9972-EB43E39DB395@me.com> MIME-version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 7E18) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (7E18) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_+7d+sBOdGkwLO84YjEekMw)" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-mailer:mime-version :subject:date:references; bh=4EU1vh8CNjB+kZ78qtzD1jG4fvrusenECzo27qCpdv4=; b=EXyQcBiEFiyBj0KGtatF3OZn72dnwdtun48H+/XtNb8XovLA8SPs0TN5PMsdn7x3Ia EO4q0OnGj7Wv8nJ+46uyl19NBJ9lQbV/fq4/9fIaSjVyXTHuopnh1PKyrrANkuSNPgv7 M0LC93gBfhtPtViF9bCX4YvkV7gBQT6Ymx2+0= X-Listbox-UUID: 7FCBE5C0-1261-11DF-8572-8220B4CD340C X-Listbox-List-ID: 247 References: <008201caa64d$ebd38140$c37a83c0$@net> List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: List-Id: List-Software: listbox.com v2.0 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :x-mailer:mime-version:subject:date:references; b=kHqT7FqxK4HmzLgZ3TLUrhvd7uSgNmTWqeIZGS4fqYcPa9njVkgz/RLt2OqXEPRFnv apRih8p6rl1NlMDY6QZwAype+u2Ck8F6EbFsYFb9b68w/7QzQ51hkA78i/Z2kqBvHyxC 7/EpgYyUuUTVgqkfojGlmsRW/WbcHocM3czdI= --Boundary_(ID_+7d+sBOdGkwLO84YjEekMw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Begin forwarded message: > From: George Ou > Date: February 5, 2010 5:28:12 AM EST > To: 'Lauren Weinstein' , dave@farber.net > Subject: RE: [ NNSquad ] British Lord says record companies are = =20 > "blackmailing" accused file traders > > That Digital Wrong post is absolute garbage Lauren, and any securit= y =20 > professional will tell you that. > > > > Digital Wrong: =E2=80=9CSay, for example, that you get a letter acc= using you=20 > of violating copyright and demanding that you stop. You know that = y=20 > ou haven=E2=80=99t been, and you think that it was probably the tec= h-savvy k=20 > id from next-door breaking into your wireless. What can you do? On = m=20 > ost consumer-grade equipment: nothing. The wireless routers that ha= v=20 > e been distributed by ISPs do not support strong enough encryption = t=20 > o keep him out, nor do they keep detailed enough logs to vindicate = y=20 > ourself.=E2=80=9D > > As someone who designed IT security systems for most of the last = =20 > decade and as a Certified Information Systems Security Professional= =20 > (CISSP), I can attest that this claim from Digital Wrong is =20 > absolutely wrong. Every business and consumer router sold since = =20 > 2004 has supported security standards that have never been broken = =20 > when used correctly, and I=E2=80=99ve been teaching wireless securi= ty best p=20 > ractices for years. > > For consumers, the only thing they need to do to ensure an =20 > practically unbreakable wireless security system on their home = =20 > router is pick WPA security with Pre-Shared Key (PSK) authenticatio= n =20 > using a random 12 character key such as J3sh1NrcZpw2 and TKIP or AE= S =20 > encryption. There is not a single security researcher in the entir= e =20 > world that has come forward to claim that they could break this kin= d =20 > of security setup within the next thousand years using modern =20 > cracking equipment. > > > > > > > George Ou > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nnsquad-bounces+george_ou=3Dlanarchitect.net@nnsquad.org = =20 > [mailto:nnsquad-bounces+george_ou=3Dlanarchitect.net@nnsquad.org] O= n =20 > Behalf Of Lauren Weinstein > Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 12:46 AM > To: nnsquad@nnsquad.org > Subject: [ NNSquad ] British Lord says record companies are =20 > "blackmailing" accused file traders > > > > > > British Lord says record companies are "blackmailing" accused file = =20 > traders > > > > http://bit.ly/arD68L (Digital Wrong) > > > > --Lauren-- > > NNSquad Moderator ------------------------------------------- --Boundary_(ID_+7d+sBOdGkwLO84YjEekMw) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE




Begin= forwarded message:

Fr= om: George Ou <g= eorge_ou@lanarchitect.net>
Date: February 5, 2010 5:= 28:12 AM EST
To: 'Lauren Weinstein' <lauren@vortex.com>, dave@farber.net=
Subject: RE: [ NNSquad ] British Lord says record compa= nies are "blackmailing" accused file traders

That Digital Wrong post is absolute garbage= Lauren, and any security professional will tell you that.

 

Digital Wrong= : = =E2=80=9CSay, for example, that you get a letter accusing you of violating copyright and demanding th= at you stop. You know that you haven=E2=80=99t been, and you think that it w= as probably the tech-savvy kid from next-door breaking into your wirele= ss. What can you do? On most consumer-grade equipment: nothing. The wireless r= outers that have been distributed by ISPs do not support strong enough encry= ption to keep him out, nor do they keep detailed enough logs to vindicate yourself.=E2=80=9D

<= o:p> 

A= s someone who designed IT security systems for most of the last decade and as a Certified Infor= mation Systems Security Professional (CISSP), I can attest that this claim f= rom Digital Wrong is absolutely wrong.  Every business and consumer = router sold since 2004 has supported security standards that have never been= broken when used correctly, and I=E2=80=99ve been teaching wireless security best practices for years.

<= o:p> 

F= or consumers, the only thing they need to do to ensure an practically unbreakable wireless securit= y system on their home router is pick WPA security with Pre-Shared Key (PSK) authentication using a random 12 character key such as J3sh1NrcZpw2 and TKIP or A= ES encryption.  There is not a single security researcher in the entire world t= hat has come forward to claim that they could break this kind of security set= up within the next thousand years using modern cracking equipment.

 

 

 

George Ou

 

-----Original Message-----
=46rom: nnsquad-bounces+george_ou=3Dlanarchitect.net@nnsquad.o= rg [mailto:nnsquad-bounces+george_ou=3Dlanarchitect.net@nnsquad.org] On = Behalf Of Lauren Weinstein
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 12:46 AM
To: nnsquad@nnsquad.org
Subject: [ NNSquad ] British Lord says record companies are "blackmailing" accused file traders

 

 

British Lord says record companies are "blackmailing" accused file traders

 

http://bit= .ly/arD68L  (Digital Wrong)

 

--Lauren--

NNSquad Moderator