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Subject: [IP] more on Who they're spying on
Begin forwarded message: From: Robert Alberti <alberti@sanction.net> Date: June 8, 2006 6:03:46 PM EDT To: dave@farber.net Subject: Re: [IP] more on Who they're spying on Reply-To: alberti@sanction.net I offered MY ideas on how to best reconcile the conflicting interests of freedom and security on September 16th, 2001, as published in the Minneapolis Star Tribune http://www.thinkingpeace.com/pages/Articles/Archive1/arts003.html Unfortunately Mr. Bray this administration is not listening to anyone's ideas but its own, as has been demonstrated repeatedly. From the dismissal of General Shalikashvili to the president's months-long delay in learning of the Haditha incident, this Administration has demonstrated that the only interests it serves are its own: not the American people's, not the Constitution's, and certainly not the interests of world peace and prosperity. However if you in your position as a major columnist for a major newspaper can transmit any ideas to this Administration on how we might best resolve the tragic present circumstances, then please by all means transmit my message to the ear of the President and Vice President: "Resign. Now." Robert Alberti, CISSP, ISSMP Sanction, Inc. http://www.sanction.net On Thu, 2006-06-08 at 13:57 -0400, David Farber wrote:
Begin forwarded message: From: h_bray@globe.com Date: June 8, 2006 12:51:52 PM EDT To: Tom Fairlie <tfairlie@frontiernet.net>, dave@farber.net Subject: Re: [IP] more on Who they're spying on Some members of this list seem more eager to engage in bitter denunciation of the present administration, than to offer ideas about how best to reconcile the conflicting interests of freedom and security. It doesn't make the slightest difference who's in the White House, or who's in control of Congress. Fanatic Islamic terrorists will keep right ontrying to kill us, as they are trying to murder Canadians, Indonesians,Frenchmen, Filipinos, Spaniards, Sudanese, Somalis, and pretty much anyone else who rejects their vision of the world. The Clinton era gave us a series of brutal islamic terror attacks on US interests, including thefirst WTC bombing. And when Bush is gone, Muslim fanatics will continue trying to kill Americans. No matter who you vote for, the problem isn'tgoing away. So we'd better think seriously about the best ways to defend our country. We're up against murderers who use sophisticated covert tactics, designed to let them hide their activities and intentions until they strike. They rely upon the free institutions of liberal societies to help them in this. Therefore, many of their activities cannot be prevented by traditional lawenforcement techniques, which are rightly constrained by rules that setfirm limits on police power.Fighting such people, therefore, requires the use of new tactics beyond those normally used by police organizations. Yet these tactics can alsoerode the liberty and privacy rights which we take for granted. How do we strike the right balance? I'd have thought that a listserv like this one, crammed with serious thinkers, might address the matter seriously. If the members believe thatthe current approach is all wrong, they could do us all a lot of good bylaying out an alternative plan. I hoped my post would inspire just such a discussion. Guess not. Hiawatha Bray "Tom Fairlie" <tfairlie@frontie rnet.net> To <dave@farber.net> 06/07/2006 11:45 cc PM <h_bray@globe.com> Subject Re: [IP] more on Who they're spying on Rubber meets the road? How about we just stop pissing on or at the rest of the world and diminish and/or remove the motivations that a "bad guy" would have in the first place. It's oh so simple if your goal was actually and honestly world peace, liberal democracy, liberty, etc. However, when your policy is global domination and you put a bunch of cowboys in charge who challenge the "bad guys" to "bring it on" then you get what ask for. I'm never going to vote for, suggest, approve, justify, or otherwise accept a policy that diminishes my freedoms, my rights, or my liberties because of some narrow-minded vision that the "boogie man" is out there gunning for me. I live in peace and make no enemies. You can too! Try it. Tom Fairlie ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Farber" <dave@farber.net> To: <ip@v2.listbox.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 12:17 PM Subject: [IP] more on Who they're spying on Begin forwarded message: From: h_bray@globe.com Date: June 7, 2006 1:00:21 PM EDT To: dave@farber.net Subject: Re: [IP] more on Who they're spying on Well, yes. But here's where rubber meets road. It'd be darn near impossible to investigate this kind of network if you had to get probable cause-based warrants at every turn. Often, you have no idea why somebody is calling someone else, or being called by them. So you can't tell a judge what you expect to find. But if you can check who's callingwho--even if you don't know what they're saying--you can extract patterndata that'll give you some serious clues. This is what the government's been doing, and catching hell for. And although the story doesn't say so, it's a good bet that this technique helped them roll up these thugs. So do we really want the government to be barred from doing this? Or if we want to put it under more intensive oversight, how do we manage that without crippling the operation? It just seems to me that the debate over this issue has mostly consisted of hand-wringing about our loss of liberties. It's a legitimate concern, but there's something else at stake too, and this story reminds us what it is. Hiawatha Bray David Farber <dave@farber.net> To 06/07/2006 12:32 ip@v2.listbox.com PM cc Subject Please respond to [IP] more on Who they're spying on dave@farber.net Begin forwarded message: From: "Steven M. Bellovin" <smb@cs.columbia.edu> Date: June 7, 2006 12:20:42 PM EDT To: dave@farber.net Cc: h_bray@globe.com Subject: Re: [IP] Who they're spying onOn Wed, 7 Jun 2006 11:53:48 -0400, David Farber <dave@farber.net> wrote:In all the fuss about the NSA spying issue, it's sometimes forgottenthat there are real bad guys out there, who badly need to be spied on.Here's a story that makes the point, from today's London Times.The issue has never been whether or not there are bad guys or even whetheror not there should be spying. The issue is the authorization to do so,and the checks and balances on surveillance requests. The Fourth Amendment recognized this, more than 200 years ago. It doesn't outlaw searches; it does, however, require an outside check on what is to be searched and why. Without such checks, we're open to arbitrary abusesof executive power. We've already seen the claim that the government isusing the phone call databases to track down leakers. Is this legal? I'mhard-put to think that it is, since they're using the very sort of broadspectrum fishing that is specifically barred by the Fourth Amendment. (By the way, don't make the mistake of thinking that traffic analysis is new, and hence unanticipatable by the framers of the Bill of Rights. I recently stumbled on a report of a spy, noting who was meeting, howfrequently, and how many messages were sent out following such meetings.This was in 1603.) --Steven M. Bellovin, http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb ------------------------------------- You are subscribed as bray@globe.com To manage your subscription, go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/?listname=ip Archives at: http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting- people/ ------------------------------------- You are subscribed as tfairlie@frontiernet.net To manage your subscription, go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/?listname=ip Archives at: http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting- people/ ------------------------------------- You are subscribed as ip@sanction.net To manage your subscription, go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/?listname=ipArchives at: http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting- people/
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