[IP] Re: The vanishing American computer programmer]]

[David Farber <dave@farber.net>]

---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
Subject: Re: [IP] The vanishing American computer programmer]
From:    "Jean Camp" <ljeanc@gmail.com>
Date:    Mon, July 16, 2007 10:10 am
To:      dave@farber.net
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On Jul 15, 2007, at 8:08 PM, David Farber wrote:

> I'm sympathetic to the issue, but I worry that simplifying the
> debate on
> outsourcing of intellectual production to the H1-B issue is silly, for
> the following reason.
>
> Bits cross boundaries quite easily.   If we make it hard for
> programmers
> to work here in the US, they can work in Finland, Estonia, Bangalore,
> Taiwan, etc.


"silly" is a good word to describe your argument, indeed.

HB-1 visas make it hard for programmers to work in the US because
they are constrained, limit the ability of the worker, and force
trained people with great social networks back to their home countries.

Imagine if all the Italians, Germans and Irish who built the American
industrial revolution were forced home in the bank panics of the
1890s. America's advantage in knowledge would have vaporized.

HB-1 visas, like all guest worker programs, are inherently
exploitive. If a company wants to hire a non-citizen, the company
should be willing to pay either a salary-based percentage of their
pay or some flat amount. Then, that person is a citizen. We need a
digital Ellis Island. Not your kind of tortured logic.


>
> Rather than focusing on the mechanics of programming we should be
> focusing
> on understanding how to solve problems and, at a deeper level
> understanding
> the contexts and thus what it means to solve a problem. It sounds
> as if
> programming is being treated as just another skill one can be
> trained for
> rather than a skill that is part of becoming educated and thus
> capable of
> doing far more.


Indeed, we should understand the OBVIOUS ORGANIZATIONAL and POLITICAL
issues. There is two threats to workers under HB-1: exploitation of
HB-1 employees and off-shoring. Making those people who are here
under the limited indentured servitude of HB-1 into citizens will
mitigate those problems.

If there were truly a problem with lack of supply, as opposed to lack
of easy-to-exploit and underpaid supply that has no right to change
jobs, then employers would also be seeking to  kill HB-1 and make
highly skilled individuals into full American citizens. The lack of
an employer voice indicating the "need" for such a change illustrates
the employer strategic interest in the program.

Anyone talented enough for a HB-1 would be an enhancement to
American as a citizen. Denying them citizenship is about denying them
rights, making them vulnerable to exploitation, and nothing more.

regards,
Jean

-------------------------------------------

On Jul 15, 2007, at 8:08 PM, David Farber wrote:

I'm sympathetic to the issue, but I worry that simplifying the debate on

outsourcing of intellectual production to the H1-B issue is silly, for

the following reason.

Bits cross boundaries quite easil! y.   If we make it hard for programmers

to work here in the US, they can work in Finland, Estonia, Bangalore,

Taiwan, etc. 

"silly" is a good word to describe your argument, indeed.

HB-1 visas make it hard for programmers to work in the US because they are constrained, limit the ability of the worker, and force trained people with great social networks back to their home countries. 

Imagine if all the Italians, Germans and Irish who built the American industrial r! evolution were forced home in the bank panics of the 1890s. America's advantage in knowledge would have vaporized.

HB-1 visas, like all guest worker programs, are inherently exploitive. If a company wants to hire a non-citizen, the company should be willing to pay either a salary-based percentage of their pay or some flat amount. Then, that person is a citizen. We need a digital Ellis Island. Not your kind of tortured logic. 

Rather than focusing on the mechanics of programming we should be focusing

on understand! ing how to solve problems and, at a deeper level understanding

the contexts and thus what it means to solve a problem. It sounds as if

programming is being treated as just another skill one can be trained for

rather than a skill that is part of becoming educated and thus capable of

doing far more.

Indeed, we should understand the OBVIOUS ORGANIZATIONAL and POLITICAL issues. There is two threats to workers under HB-1: exploitation of HB-1 employees and off-shoring. Making those people who ! are here under the limited indentured servitude of HB-1 into citizens will mitigate those problems. 

If there were truly a problem with lack of supply, as opposed to lack of easy-to-exploit and underpaid supply that has no right to change jobs, then employers would also be seeking to  kill HB-1 and make highly skilled individuals into full American citizens. The lack of an employer voice indicating the "need" for such a change illustrates the employer strategic interest in the program.

Anyone talented enough for a HB-1 would be an enhancement to  American as a citizen. Denying them citizenship is about denying them rights, making them vulnerable to exploitation, and nothing more. 

regards,

Jean

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