[IP] Re: RATHER DEFINITIVE -- Most think founders wanted Christian USA

[David Farber <dave@farber.net>]

Begin forwarded message:

From: "John S. Quarterman" <jsq@quarterman.org>
Date: September 15, 2007 9:48:55 AM EDT
To: dave@farber.net
Cc: jsq@quarterman.org, dewayne-net@warpspeed.com,  
ken.dipietro@advantaq.com, mfidelman@meetinghouse.net
Subject: Re: [IP] Re: Most think founders wanted Christian USA

For IP:

It's useful to have the facts handy when talking to anybody who believes
such things.

 "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any  
sense,
  founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no  
character of
  enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen;  
and,
  as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility
  against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that
  no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an
  interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

  --Article 11, Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United  
States
    and the Bey and Subjects of the Bey of Tripoli of Barbary,
    'Authored by American diplomat Joel Barlow in 1796, the following
    treaty was sent to the floor of the Senate, June 7, 1797,
    where it was read aloud in its entirety and unanimously approved.
    John Adams, having seen the treaty, signed it and proudly
    proclaimed it to the Nation.'
    http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html


 "The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first  
example
  of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men
  are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice,
  imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event
  as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation  
of the
  American governments is at present little known or regarded either in
  Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of  
curiosity. It
  will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had
  interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the  
influence of
  Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in
  merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that  
these
  governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the  
senses."

  --John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the
    United States of America" (1787-88)


Thomas Jefferson had this written on his tombstone:

                         HERE WAS BURIED
                        THOMAS JEFFERSON
                          AUTHOR OF THE
                           DECLARATION
                    OF AMERICAN INDEPENDENCE
                             OF THE
                       STATUTE OF VIRGINIA
                               FOR
                        RELIGIOUS FREEDOM
                        AND FATHER OF THE
                     UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA
                     BORN APRIL 2, 1743 O.S.
                        DIED JULY 4. 1826


 "Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the
  plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by
  inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the
  plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the  
insertion was
  rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to  
comprehend,
  within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the
  Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every  
denomination."

  --Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, re Virginia Statute for  
Religious Freedom
    http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1650.htm


Here's the text of the U.S. Constitution in a variety of handy formats:

 http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/5

It never mentions God or deity.

It mentions religion only twice, in Article VI clause 3:

 "The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members
  of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial
  Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall
  be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no
  religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any  
Office
  or public Trust under the United States."

And in the First Amendment:

 "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,
  or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

The founders meant what they wrote.


> From: Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net>
> Date: September 14, 2007 7:36:25 AM EDT

> ...

> Apparently, the argument over whether we're a Christian country or
> not goes all the way back to the founding fathers, and the first few
> administrations - where the point of view flip-flopped from President
> to President.

Yes, there were always people who wanted the U.S. to be a Christian
nation, by which they meant to have a Christian government,
and some who tried to make out that it was and that the founders
meant it to be.  They were wrong then and they're still wrong now.

Actually, not a single one of the first seven presidents was a Christian
in the sense most people then accepted (believer in the Trinity,
member of a church, and partaker of communion):

<blockquote>

The Rev. Dr. Wilson, who was almost a contemporary of our earlier
statesmen and presidents, and who thoroughly investigated the subject
of their religious beliefs, in his sermon already mentioned affirmed
that the founders of our nation were nearly all Infidels, and that of
the presidents who had thus far been elected -- George Washington, John
Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, John Quincy Adams,
and Andrew Jackson -- not one had professed a belief in Christianity.  
From
this sermon I quote the following:

<em>
"When the war was over and the victory over our enemies won, and
the blessings and happiness of liberty and peace were secured, the
Constitution was framed and God was neglected. He was not merely
forgotten. He was absolutely voted out of the Constitution. The
proceedings, as published by Thompson, the secretary, and the history of
the day, show that the question was gravely debated whether God  
should be
in the Constitution or not, and, after a solemn debate he was  
deliberately
voted out of it. ... There is not only in the theory of our  
government no
recognition of God's laws and sovereignty, but its practical operation,
its administration, has been conformable to its theory. Those who have
been called to administer the government have not been men making any
public profession of Christianity. ... Washington was a man of valor
and wisdom. He was esteemed by the whole world as a great and good man;
but he was not a professing Christian."
</em>

</blockquote>

 --Six Historic Americans, George Washington, by John E. Remsburg, 1906
   http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/john_remsburg/ 
six_historic_americans/chapter_3.html

When the Senate unanimously approved the Tripoli Treaty,
Andrew Jackson was a Senator from Tennessee, Thomas Jefferson
was Vice President and thus President of the Senate, and John
Adams signed the treaty as President.


This link has details on how God was voted out of the Constitution:

 http://candst.tripod.com/testban2.htm

Note that it was Sam Adams, not John Adams, who objected to the
prohibition on religious tests.

John Adams, Ben Franklin, and James Madison are clearly on record as
being for the prohibition on religious tests, and Washington was the
chair of the Constitutional Convention that passed it.  Madison was
also one of the people most active in getting the Virginia Statute for
Religious Freedom passed, which Jefferson wrote.  There you have the
first four presidents and Andy Jackson.  The rest aren't much more
difficult to track down on this subject.  The first seven (actually,
apparently at least the first 19) presidents were all for a secular
Republic and weren't even Christians themselves.

-jsq

 "I could not do otherwise without transcending the limits prescribed
  by the Constitution for the President and without feeling that I  
might
  in some degree disturb the security which religion nowadays enjoys in
  this country in its complete separation from the political  
concerns of
  the General Government."

  --U.S. President Andrew Jackson, 12 June 1832,
    letter to the Synod of the Reformed Church of North America,
    explaining his refusal of their request that he proclaim
    a "day of fasting, humiliation, and prayer."
    http://www.adherents.com/people/pj/Andrew_Jackson.html



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