[IP] The terrible, no good, rotten, horrible, really bad Web site list ( YES YES djf)

[David Farber <dave@farber.net>]

________________________________________
From: bobr@bobrosenberg.phoenix.az.us [bobr@bobrosenberg.phoenix.az.us]
Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 1:42 AM
To: Tom Fairlie
Cc: David Farber; Karl Auerbach; Brock N Meeks
Subject: Re: The terrible, no good, rotten, horrible, really bad Web site list ( YES YES djf)

Much agreement, Tom.

However, a caveat -- I prefaced my comment by reminding all of us that all
generalizations are false (including this one).  So, my belief that *generally*
Republicans [these days] want to use the power of Government to control people
stands.I hope you will pardon this rather lengthy quote, because I believe it well
confirms my position:

"There is no position on which people are so immovable as their religious beliefs.
There is no more powerful ally one can claim in a debate than Jesus Christ, or God,
or Allah, or whatever one calls this supreme being. But like any powerful weapon,
the use of God's name on one's behalf should be used sparingly. The religious
factions that are growing throughout our land are not using their religious clout
with wisdom. They are trying to force government leaders into following their
position 100 percent. If you disagree with these religious groups on a particular
moral issue, they complain, they threaten you with a loss of money or votes or both.
I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me
as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in 'A,' 'B,' 'C,'
and 'D.' Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim
the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me?  And I am even more angry as a
legislator who must endure the threats of every religious group who thinks it has
some God-granted right to control my vote on every roll call in the Senate. I am
warning them today:  I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate
their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of 'conservatism.' "
                                       Barry Goldwater
                                        Speech in the US Senate (16 September 1981)
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Barry_Goldwater


DISCLOSURE:  When Barry vacated his seat on the Phoenix City Council to take his
seat in the United States Senate, Mayor Nick Udall & the remaining members of the
City Council appointed my late father to occupy that chair, and when Barry ran for
President, I was a volunteer in his campaign headquarters here in Phoenix.

Cheers,
Bob

P.S.  If you're in the Phoenix area on Saturday, June 21st, you can join me at 7PM
at Changing Hands Bookstore where Barry Goldwater, Jr. and John Dean will be
discussing their book, 'Pure Goldwater'.




> Sounds like we'd get along, Bob. I share your concerns.
>
> The stronger parallel to pre-WWII Germany is the fact
> that most Germans didn't understand what was utlimately
> going to happen. They accepted each repressive measure
> over a long period of time because it didn't affect them
> direction--only someone *else*.
>
> Our history books paint Germany as a Nazi state populated
> with fascist mystics bent on world domination. Closer to
> the truth is that they were an educated country experiencing
> economic devastation and political turmoil and decided
> (indirectly) to go along to get along.
>
> We should really learn a lesson from that. While we don't
> have a Hitler replica around, we have many wannabes on
> radio and in print, a subculture of hatred and bigotry that
> facilitates repression, and an apathetic citzenry that sadly
> ignores--or simply doesn't get--what's going on.
>
> Regarding your control comment. I still don't believe that
> the Republicans' aim is to control society. I honestly think
> that the powers behind the Republican national leadership
> (and, to a lesser extent, behind the Democrats) use these
> wedge issues to distract us from other, more important things.
>
> Just listen to any sort of public debate around you and 90%
> of what you hear is right vs. left, conservatives vs. liberals,
> and us vs. them. It's really appalling that so many of us have
> fallen into this false debate. It's should really be more about
> the honest or innocent vs. the corrupt and the comprimised.
>
> Remember that our revolutionary ancestors (the real fighters,
> not the politicians we are taught about) were much more likely
> to storm the colonial landholders (the "pre-Americans" who
> profited from slavery and indentured servitude) than they were
> the British. It is a testament to our political forefathers brilliance
> that they were able to turn this resentment towards England.
>
> We could use someone today who would be effective turning
> the table the other way. (Not that I recommend rakes and
> torches, but you get my drift. ;-)
>
> Tom Fairlie
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <bobr@bobrosenberg.phoenix.az.us>
> To: "Tom Fairlie" <tfairlie@frontiernet.net>
> Cc: "David Farber" <dave@farber.net>; "Karl Auerbach" <karl@cavebear.com>;
> "Brock N Meeks" <bmeeks@cox.net>
> Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 10:06 AM
> Subject: Re: The terrible, no good, rotten, horrible, really bad Web site
> list ( YES YES djf)
>
>
>> "I agree except for the fact that you have to distinguish between
>> Republicans and
>> Democrats as a voting bloc and their party leadership."
>>
>> Total agreement.
>>
>> "The Republicans on the other hand, are not so much for control of the
>> people...."
>>
>> Uh, er, Hmm, civil rights?  rights for detainees at Gitmo <YAY for the
>> Supremes
>> decision this morning!>, as an example:  I firmly believe it's none of my
>> business
>> who you go to bed with -- It's none of my business if you even go to bed
>> with
>> anybody -- and, it's none of the Big Gummint's business either.
>>
>> Happy Anniversary to the Lovings' (41 years ago today) decision by a
>> previous set of
>> Supremes.  So, if Caucasians may marry Blacks, what's the big deal about
>> homosexuals?
>>
>> The sorry spectacle, a few years ago, of Colin Powell using the same Jim
>> Crow
>> language that was used for too long against Blacks in the Military against
>> Homosexuals in the Military disgusted me.
>>
>> Interesting mention of Hitler:  Earlier this morning, I was reading some
>> quotes of
>> Kurt Vonnegut and came across, "So you're a Christian - so was Adolph
>> Hitler".
>>
>> If one reads & compares the Laws enacted between 1928 and 1933 in
>> enlightened
>> Germany with the Laws enacted in this Country since September of 2001, I
>> find that
>> one is then required to change one's underwear.
>>
>> On that happy note,
>> Cheers,
>> Bob
>> --
>> Bob Rosenberg
>> P.O. Box 33023
>> Phoenix, AZ  85067-3023
>> Mobile:  602-206-2856
>> LandLine:  602-274-3012
>> bob@bobrosenberg.phoenix.az.us
>>
>> **************
>>
>> "Once a government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice of
>> opposition, it has only one way to go, and that is down the path of
>> increasingly
>> repressive measures, until it becomes a source of terror to all its
>> citizens and
>> creates a country where everyone lives in fear."
>> -- President Harry S. Truman, message to Congress, August 8, 1950
>>
>> "Civil government cannot let any group ride roughshod over others simply
>> because
>> their consciences tell them to do so."
>> -- Justice Robert H. Jackson
>> While an Associate Justice of the United States Supreme Court, Jackson was
>> appointed
>> Chief United States Prosecutor at the International War Crimes Tribunal in
>> Nuremberg, Germany.
>>
>>> I agree except for the fact that you have to distinguish between
>>> Republicans and Democrats as a voting bloc and their party leadership.
>>>
>>> Democrats at the top of the food chain are historically just as greedy
>>> and self-serving as any Republican, it's just that their constituents are
>>> often working- or middle-class people that want basic rights and
>>> freedoms (what we now call being "liberal").
>>>
>>> The Republicans on the other hand, are not so much for control of
>>> the people as they are for control of their gravy train. The people
>>> are just useful cogs in the machinery. So if the CEO makes it a point
>>> to "control cogs," then I'd say you're correct.
>>>
>>> Also keep in mind that Republicans no longer stand for any uniform
>>> principle from a political perspective. Their long-term strategy since
>>> Goldwater has been to attract southern conservatives (the "Reagan
>>> Democrats") into their fold. Although their plan worked, their platform
>>> now resembles Hitler's in so many ways (strong economic controls
>>> PLUS a strong, anti-liberal social policy). (BTW, that comparison
>>> was political, not emotional; Americans who object to any mention
>>> of Hitler should read more.)
>>>
>>> Take care.
>>>
>>> Tom Fairlie
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: <bobr@bobrosenberg.phoenix.az.us>
>>> To: "David Farber" <dave@farber.net>
>>> Cc: "Tom Fairlie" <tfairlie@frontiernet.net>; "Karl Auerbach"
>>> <karl@cavebear.com>; "Brock N Meeks" <bmeeks@cox.net>
>>> Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 6:36 AM
>>> Subject: Re: The terrible, no good, rotten, horrible, really bad Web site
>>> list ( YES YES djf)
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi Dave, Tom, Karl & Brock
>>>>
>>>> Recognizing that all generalizations are false (including this one), I
>>>> have come to
>>>> believe that, in general, Democrats want to use the power of Government
>>>> to
>>>> help
>>>> people while Republicans want to use the power of Government to control
>>>> people.
>>>>
>>>> Having been one of the latter and converted to one of the former,
>>>> perhaps
>>>> I am not
>>>> an impartial witness, nonetheless....
>>>>
>>>> However, what I see coming ain't no way to run an internet!
>>>>
>>>> Oh wait!  We could just put TSA in charge of the internet.  Yeah, that
>>>> will fix it.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Bob
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Bob Rosenberg
>>>> P.O. Box 33023
>>>> Phoenix, AZ  85067-3023
>>>> Mobile:  602-206-2856
>>>> LandLine:  602-274-3012
>>>> bob@bobrosenberg.phoenix.az.us
>>>>
>>>> **************
>>>>
>>>> "Once a government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice
>>>> of
>>>> opposition, it has only one way to go, and that is down the path of
>>>> increasingly
>>>> repressive measures, until it becomes a source of terror to all its
>>>> citizens and
>>>> creates a country where everyone lives in fear."
>>>> -- President Harry S. Truman, message to Congress, August 8, 1950
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>> From: Tom Fairlie [tfairlie@frontiernet.net]
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 10:55 PM
>>>>> To: David Farber
>>>>> Cc: Brock N. Meeks; karl@cavebear.com
>>>>> Subject: Re: [IP] Re:   The terrible, no good, rotten, horrible, really
>>>>> bad Web site
>>>>> list ( YES YES djf)
>>>>>
>>>>> One should always be wary when one of the four horses of the Internet
>>>>> apocalypse are trotted out (i.e., child porn, terrorism, drug
>>>>> trafficking,
>>>>> and any sort of generic, mob-related crime such as money laundering).
>>>>>
>>>>> Policies related to these memes aren't merely the remnants of a failed
>>>>> strategy or lazy legislation; they are frequently used to hide even
>>>>> more
>>>>> nefarious activities that the private (and often, governmental)
>>>>> entities
>>>>> really want passed. As always, follow the money (or see what's being
>>>>> hidden), and you will find out why so many people want to shut the
>>>>> Internet down, regulate it, or otherwise put it under strict control
>>>>> and
>>>>> close scrutiny.
>>>>>
>>>>> A free, public vehicle for communication is anathema to the goals of
>>>>> the people ultimately behind these policies. Lazy, ignorant politicians
>>>>> are just useful idiots.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom Fairlie
>>>>>
>>>>> PS, like Brock, I have children, and the last thing I want to see is a
>>>>> terrible crime that directly affects them. However, expecting our
>>>>> government to effectively resolve any of these issues with its current
>>>>> trajectory is probably less useful than simple prayer.
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "David Farber" <dave@farber.net>
>>>>> To: "ip" <ip@v2.listbox.com>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 6:45 PM
>>>>> Subject: [IP] Re: The terrible, no good, rotten, horrible, really bad
>>>>> Web
>>>>> site list ( YES YES djf)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>> From: Karl Auerbach [karl@cavebear.com]
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 7:22 PM
>>>>> To: David Farber
>>>>> Cc: bmeeks@cox.net
>>>>> Subject: Re: [IP] The terrible, no good, rotten, horrible, really bad
>>>>> Web
>>>>> site list ( YES YES djf)
>>>>>
>>>>> David Farber wrote:
>>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>>> From: Brock N Meeks [bmeeks@cox.net]
>>>>>
>>>>>> First, I want to know who anointed the National Center for Missing and
>>>>>> Exploited Children as judge and jury of what constitutes a child porn
>>>>>> Web site?
>>>>>
>>>>> Welcome to the 21st Century world of private governance - plenary power
>>>>> in private hands: No oversight, no review, and often exempt from taxes
>>>>> and anti-trust laws.  It is a natural step from the Reagan/Thatcher
>>>>> belief that the powers of government are best exercised without public
>>>>> oversight by private actors.
>>>>>
>>>>> This National Center for Missing and Exploited Children is one example,
>>>>> Blackwater is another.
>>>>>
>>>>> One of the reasons that I rail so much about ICANN is that it is also
>>>>> one of these things that have power of government exercised via a
>>>>> private body.
>>>>>
>>>>> The big fights in western Europe and N. America of the latter 18th and
>>>>> early 19th centuries were concerned with redressing and constraining
>>>>> outrageous abuses of national power - one of the most extreme examples
>>>>> being the France of Louis XIV.
>>>>>
>>>>> Unfortunately we are not advancing.  Instead we are going retrograde.
>>>>> We are abandoning the idea bodies of limited government exercising
>>>>> limited powers that are derived from the citizenry.  We seem to be
>>>>> moving back to an era more suggestive of feudal powers vested in
>>>>> corporate dukes and NGO nobles.
>>>>>
>>>>> We are in an era in which power is being concentrated rather than
>>>>> diffused.  And that concentration is occurring with the greatest
>>>>> rapidity into bodies that are the least accountable to the public.
>>>>>
>>>>> And this acceptance of concentration is slopping over into other areas.
>>>>>   For instance it really bothers me that not one of the US Presidential
>>>>> candidates as repudiated Pres. Bush's "unitary executive" grab for
>>>>> neo-royal power.
>>>>>
>>>>>                 --karl--
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>





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